Current Events > Sweden forced to reconsider its socialist policies due to the migrant influx

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://www.economist.com/news/europe/21723123-more-needs-be-done-ensure-it-survives-immigration-changing-swedish-welfare

AT THE height of the migrant crisis the Sweden Democrats, a populist anti-immigrant party, released a video. Over images of burnt-out cars and groups of homeless people it read: No money. No jobs. No homes. No welfare. Welcome to Sweden. The message, like a previous video from the party in which burqa-clad women race ahead of an old Swedish lady to grab a share of public funds, was hysterical. But it touched on a real problem: large-scale immigration is putting a strain on Swedens welfare system.

Sweden has long been admired for its blend of prosperity and social cohesion. Its model combines high taxes, generous welfare, collective bargaining, high educational standards and a reasonably free-market economy. The result is high living standards: the lowest wages, for example in hotels or restaurants, are far higher than minimum wages elsewhere in Europe says Marten Blix, a Swedish economist. Relative to other countries that have comparable data, Swedish men in manufacturing earn the highest minimum wage.

Aspects of this welfare state have long seemed unsustainable, with an ageing workforce and a recent rise in the number of sick-leave absences taken by employees. Some changes were made in the 1990s: the pension system is far less generous than it used to be, and much more school choice was introduced. But the influx of hundreds of thousands of refugees from Syria, Afghanistan and elsewhere in 2015 has put huge extra pressure on the system. To cope, Sweden needs to reform benefits, build more houses and boost the number of doctors and teachers outside big cities. If it does not, the country will struggle to absorb so many culturally dissimilar migrantsand anti-immigrant views may become mainstream.

The government, led by the Social Democrats, has made a few tweaks to the welfare state. Previously, failed asylum-seekers would receive a cash benefit (of around 1,200 SEK, or $140 a month) and housing; this was scrapped last year. On May 31st the government voted to limit paid parental leave for immigrants: previously, refugees could claim the full amount of paid leave (480 days per child under the age of eight). Now they can only do so if the child is under one year old. The benefit will also be limited in big families. (This change does not apply to Swedes.)

But these changes do not deal with the biggest problem: a rigid labour market which prevents unskilled workers from getting a foothold. As a result, Sweden has one of the largest gaps in employment between native and foreign-born workers. After nine years in Sweden, only half of immigrants have a job. Even after 20 years of residency, foreign-born workers are less likely than the native-born to have jobs. If they cannot work, they will not pay tax. This will undermine the welfare state both directly (because they will not pay for it) and indirectly (because locals may resent supporting so many foreigners). The only way that the newcomers will integrate and contribute is if they have jobs, and that probably means starting at the bottom.

Sweden's welfare state policies have been a house of cards for quite a while, but the migrant surge has really put pressure on a system and shown the multitude of flaws that have been invisible up to this point.

This is a great example of why the social democratic welfare policies that so many people on CE love could never work in a country like the U.S. The slightest bit of cultural diversity and the system becomes completely untenable.
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The midterm elections sure are making some people SHOOK
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This just further proves socialist systems are less adaptive to changes in population demographics
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the united states has always had a much more sustainable immigration policy than most of these european nations
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Interesting read.
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Same with the entirety of the EU.

They can't support such a huge influx of unskilled adults.

Kazi1212 posted...

This just further proves socialist systems are less adaptive to changes in population demographics

Absolutely. The welfare-state model is essentially a nationalized Ponzi scheme. Once any of the input factors start to change -- population group, labor market growth, worker education level, workforce participation, productivity, number of people being supported -- the scheme can't support itself and starts to crumble.

Sweden's labor market stagnation and aging population had ensured that this model wasn't sustainable anyway, but once the stress of hundreds of thousands of unskilled migrants was introduced, it started to collapse in a hurry.
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Now watch them go hyper authoritarian
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The Admiral posted...

Kazi1212 posted...

This just further proves socialist systems are less adaptive to changes in population demographics

Absolutely. The welfare-state model is essentially a nationalized Ponzi scheme. Once any of the input factors start to change -- population group, labor marker growth, worker education level, workforce participation, productivity, number of people being supported -- the scheme can't support itself and starts to crumble.

Sweden's labor market stagnation and aging population had ensured that this model wasn't sustainable anyway, but once the stress of hundreds of thousands of unskilled migrants was introduced, it started to collapse in a hurry.

I really want to see someone argue against this point without resorting to ad hominems to attack you
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Not sure what limiting programs for refugees or people who weren't even granted asylum says about the entire system. Seems like a common sense thing to do.

Broseph_Stalin posted...

Not sure what limiting programs for refugees or people who weren't even granted asylum says about the entire system. Seems like a common sense thing to do.

Seems like the system can't sustain itself under the stress of a migrant influx.
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The Admiral posted...

Seems like the system can't sustain itself under the stress of a migrant influx.

It's been doing much better than just sustaining itself, Swedish debt has been on the decline for decades.

I'm not sure how denying full benefits to asylum seekers is an argument against the entire system.

Kazi1212 posted...

The Admiral posted...

Kazi1212 posted...

This just further proves socialist systems are less adaptive to changes in population demographics

Absolutely. The welfare-state model is essentially a nationalized Ponzi scheme. Once any of the input factors start to change -- population group, labor marker growth, worker education level, workforce participation, productivity, number of people being supported -- the scheme can't support itself and starts to crumble.

Sweden's labor market stagnation and aging population had ensured that this model wasn't sustainable anyway, but once the stress of hundreds of thousands of unskilled migrants was introduced, it started to collapse in a hurry.

I really want to see someone argue against this point without resorting to ad hominems to attack you

@Antifar ?

Wth I cant @ that guy, am I on his ignore list?
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@Antifar

I cant either. I guess hes suspended.

Yep, hes warned.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/community/antifar
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Oh nooo did he close his account?

Also, fuck auto correct
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Lmfao cant imagine what he would get suspended for
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@antfair

what did you get suspended for

silentwing26x posted...

@antfair

what did you get suspended for

He got warned for posting some message board screenshot that had a gay slur in it. Didn't seem like it was intentional on his part.
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So are they socialists or social democrats? You cant seem to decide
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Sweden is being Islamophobic for reconsidering their Jizya payments.

Non-Muslims must pay as a sign of their subjugation to the Muslims, and it is mandated in the Quran: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. Quran 9:29

Lord_Theruss posted...

Sweden is being Islamophobic for reconsidering their Jizya payments.

Non-Muslims must pay as a sign of their subjugation to the Muslims, and it is mandated in the Quran: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. Quran 9:29

Is that like an either or thing? Like if someone believes in the Last Day Muslims shouldnt fight them right?
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ASithLord7 posted...

So are they socialists or social democrats? You cant seem to decide

Sure I can, because I know what words mean. They're a capitalist country with strong welfare programs.
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why didnt sweden realize this would happen?

The Admiral posted...

The slightest bit of cultural diversity and the system becomes completely untenable.

You really think it's about cultural diversity and not an influx of people not immediately ready to contribute fully to the tax base that supports these systems?
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sopfed posted...

You really think it's about cultural diversity and not an influx of people not immediately ready to contribute fully to the tax base that supports these systems?

Yeah, Sweden has had a (relatively) large foreign-born population for decades and their welfare system is in better shape than it was before that. Strong GDP growth, declining debt, etc.

The article is just pointing out that people who are granted asylum aren't given full benefits which isn't even a story honestly.

The Admiral posted...

This is a great example of why the social democratic welfare policies that so many people on CE love could never work in a country like the U.S. The slightest bit of cultural diversity and the system becomes completely untenable.

I'm not convinced that this is the immutable law you make it out to be. Yes, racial diversity does pose an obstacle to creating strong, universal social programs. You can make an easy case that the black-white divide in the U.S. is responsible for our failure (in contrast with Europe) to create a strong labor movement and safety net.

But just as racial tensions can be developed and manufactured, they are something that can be combated and beaten back. We've seen efforts, and successful ones, to do that in American history. Fighting these diversions and working to create cross-racial solidarity is an imperative because the alternatives: either having a Jim Crow, apartheid style racial caste system or America's gutted safety net, are in my mind intolerable.
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Jokeaccountinc posted...

I have over half the posts in this topic including the OP, ignored, so I can't read whatever it is they posted. I assume it's from Breitbart or something

but regardless, Sweden isn't socialist, and any decay in their well-being as a country (if there has even been any) is not an indictment of the system
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averagejoel posted...

I have over half the posts in this topic including the OP, ignored, so I can't read whatever it is they posted. I assume it's from Breitbart or something

The Economist, if you're curious
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antfair posted...

But just as racial tensions can be developed and manufactured, they are something that can be combated and beaten back. We've seen efforts, and successful ones, to do that in American history. Fighting these diversions and working to create cross-racial solidarity is an imperative because the alternatives: either having a Jim Crow, apartheid style racial caste system or America's gutted safety net, are in my mind equally intolerable.

I rather like this take. Good stuff.
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antfair posted...

averagejoel posted...

I have over half the posts in this topic including the OP, ignored, so I can't read whatever it is they posted. I assume it's from Breitbart or something

The Economist, if you're curious

knowing the outlet makes me even less curious. thanks though
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It's not the racial difference that's the problem, it's the cultural differences. There is no theoretical reason why people of different races can't all share the same cultural ethics and values and make a system like this work, but that's empirically not something that ever seems to happen for any number of reasons.
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averagejoel posted...

antfair posted...

averagejoel posted...

I have over half the posts in this topic including the OP, ignored, so I can't read whatever it is they posted. I assume it's from Breitbart or something

The Economist, if you're curious

knowing the outlet makes me even less curious. thanks though

Just FYI, these are the kinds of sources averagejoel apparently doesn't like:


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We must protect Sweden and their women at all cost. If they perish then they will no longer reproduce hot Swedish women

averagejoel is such a joke

silentwing26x posted...

averagejoel is such a joke

He just as readily dismisses Breitbart as The Economist. Very interesting media evaluation criteria he must have.

Anyway, no surprise, anything to avoid having to address the real-life flaws of socialist systems. The fact that Sweden's government's policies are unsustainable is the death knell to Bernie Bros who pointed to that nation as the validation of their wishful thinking.
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The Admiral posted...

silentwing26x posted...

averagejoel is such a joke

He just as readily dismisses Breitbart as The Economist. Very interesting media evaluation criteria he must have.

Anyway, no surprise, anything to avoid having to address the real-life flaws of socialist systems. The fact that Sweden's government's policies are unsustainable is the death knell to Bernie Bros who pointed to that nation as the validation of their wishful thinking.

He can barely handle being an elementary school music teacher, so maybe we shouldn't fault him for not understanding The Economist.

The Admiral posted...

Anyway, no surprise, anything to avoid having to address the real-life flaws of socialist systems. The fact that Sweden's government's policies are unsustainable is the death knell to Bernie Bros who pointed to that nation as the validation of their wishful thinking.

As several people have said, the rationing of some services for new arrivals and total failure of the system are pretty different things. Give it time.
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The Admiral posted...

Anyway, no surprise, anything to avoid having to address the real-life flaws of socialist systems.

Sweden does not have a socialist system. It is a (very competitive) market economy.

Also, you keep missing the point of the article. The system isn't changing.

dirtycommunist posted...

The Admiral posted...

Anyway, no surprise, anything to avoid having to address the real-life flaws of socialist systems. The fact that Sweden's government's policies are unsustainable is the death knell to Bernie Bros who pointed to that nation as the validation of their wishful thinking.

As several people have said, the rationing of some services for new arrivals and total failure of the system are pretty different things. Give it time.

Why does it need to be rationed? Why didn't they realize it'd need to be rationed before they brought in all the migrants? How is their system supposed to scale to a population like America's if it can barely accommodate this?

dirtycommunist posted...

The Admiral posted...

Anyway, no surprise, anything to avoid having to address the real-life flaws of socialist systems. The fact that Sweden's government's policies are unsustainable is the death knell to Bernie Bros who pointed to that nation as the validation of their wishful thinking.

As several people have said, the rationing of some services for new arrivals and total failure of the system are pretty different things. Give it time.

The article already points out the ticking time bomb. This is merely an exacerbation of what happens once the demographics turn over and there are more elderly Swedes on the receiving end than there are enough working Swedes to support them. Hence the flaw in the Ponzi scheme.
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averagejoel posted...

antfair posted...

averagejoel posted...

I have over half the posts in this topic including the OP, ignored, so I can't read whatever it is they posted. I assume it's from Breitbart or something

The Economist, if you're curious

knowing the outlet makes me even less curious. thanks though

ahahaha
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The Admiral posted...

The fact that Sweden's government's policies are unsustainable is the death knell to Bernie Bros who pointed to that nation as the validation of their wishful thinking.

Do you think U.S. policies are more sustainable? Our whole economy is propped up on private debt and people working multiple jobs to make ends meet. Millions of people are swept under the rug in our prisons, and thousands die each year for lack of healthcare. Meanwhile, we've played a big part in creating the refugee crisis with our destabilizing military adventures abroad. I can say I'd gladly swap Sweden's current position for ours.
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The Admiral posted...

This is merely an exacerbation of what happens once the demographics turnover and there are more elderly Swedes on the receiving end than there are enough working Swedes to support them.

You're arguing for immigration btw.

Broseph_Stalin posted...

The Admiral posted...

This is merely an exacerbation of what happens once the demographics turnover and there are more elderly Swedes on the receiving end than there are enough working Swedes to support them.

You're arguing for immigration btw.

Did you read the article to see what their immigration policies have done?
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The Admiral posted...

Did you read the article to see what their immigration policies have done?

I've been telling you to read it this entire topic. They are denying full benefits to asylum seekers.

This is different from traditional immigration which has been happening in Sweden for decades with no strain on their welfare system.

Broseph_Stalin posted...

The Admiral posted...

Did you read the article to see what their immigration policies have done?

I've been telling you to read it this entire topic. They are denying full benefits to asylum seekers.

This is different from traditional immigration which has been happening in Sweden for decades with no strain on their welfare system.

So you agree that accepting way too many people at once is catastrophic for the economy and culture?

uh if you have this anti immigrant fixation like every other alt-righter I'm not sure you wanna be posting articles by the economist lol
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Broseph_Stalin posted...

The Admiral posted...

Did you read the article to see what their immigration policies have done?

I've been telling you to read it this entire topic. They are denying full benefits to asylum seekers.

This is different from traditional immigration which has been happening in Sweden for decades with no strain on their welfare system.

You mean this is different by taking migrants by the tens of thousands from "shithole countries" who have no interest in being Swedes? No kidding.

I don't think anyone has argued against controlled immigration that allows in educated workers or students who want to assimilate.
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Broseph_Stalin posted...

The Admiral posted...

Did you read the article to see what their immigration policies have done?

I've been telling you to read it this entire topic. They are denying full benefits to asylum seekers.

This is different from traditional immigration which has been happening in Sweden for decades with no strain on their welfare system.

At what point are asylum seekers considered immigrants? Are they ever?
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