Current Events > Do you believe Russia meddled in the US elections?

(+) Yeah! (+)

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Sure. But I think it was more because they didn't want Clinton as President, not because they particularly wanted Trump.
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Yes, but not on a scale deserving of the attention it has received
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#Nothingburger
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At the end of the day, if they don't actually hack into the voting system or have people paid or planted to vote a certain way, I don't see how anything can truly be considered "meddling."

If anything, I would say the FBI did more to influence the election in the weeks leading up to it than Russia ever did.
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Yes. But they were for Clinton and Trump still beat her.
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Depends on what you mean by meddling. If it's "existing in the same world as us" yeah, just like every other nation in the world meddled with our election.
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Antifar posted...

Yes, but not on a scale deserving of the attention it has received

a foreign power, especially one as adversarial as Russia, meddling in our democracy isn't alarming to you? i think our government needs to respond in a strong way to indicate that shit will not stand.
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Sephiroth1288 posted...

#Nothingburger

the question wasn't about whether Trump or his staff colluded, you know. it's about whether Russia meddled, which is pretty much universally accepted except by a few extremists. case in point, i guess?
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they very obviously did.

a42ozslushie posted...

Sure. But I think it was more because they didn't want Clinton as President, not because they particularly wanted Trump.

partly this, and partly Putin in literal heaven because america was rallying behind someone so incredibly stupid, and so incredibly easy to manipulate.
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Giant_Aspirin posted...

Antifar posted...

Yes, but not on a scale deserving of the attention it has received

a foreign power, especially one as adversarial as Russia, meddling in our democracy isn't alarming to you? i think our government needs to respond in a strong way to indicate that shit will not stand.

For doing what, making sock accounts on Facebook that copypastad Trump memes?

Giant_Aspirin posted...

the question wasn't about whether Trump or his staff colluded,

That's....what the whole investigation is supposed to be about
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They meddled as far as shitposting on the internet... there was no sort of rigging the actual election.
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Sephiroth1288 posted...

That's....what the whole investigation is supposed to be about

but that's .... not what this topic is about, Mal.
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Giant_Aspirin posted...

a foreign power, especially one as adversarial as Russia, meddling in our democracy isn't alarming to you?

The most damning allegation made so far is that they attempted to breach state level election systems. Were they even successful in that? I'll allow that that is a big deal, but so much attention has been given to Facebook pages that reached 146 people and makeshift rallies attended by even fewer.
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Almost definitely
Although I don't think that it's much worse than shit posting all over the internet.
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Aww, did Mal's main get warned again?
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a42ozslushie posted...

Sure. But I think it was more because they didn't want Clinton as President, not because they particularly wanted Trump.

Oh they definitely wanted Trump. Not only has he weakened America's standing in the world the Russians have significant dirt on him. Why else would the POTUS refuse to impose sanctions that passed congress 98-2
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Antifar posted...

Giant_Aspirin posted...

a foreign power, especially one as adversarial as Russia, meddling in our democracy isn't alarming to you?

The most damning allegation made so far is that they attempted to breach state level election systems. Were they even successful in that? I'll allow that that is a big deal, but so much attention has been given to Facebook pages that reached 146 people and makeshift rallies attended by even fewer.

i think the principal that Russia state-sponsored interference in our electoral process, period, is alarming and we should stand up for ourselves.

Sephiroth1288 posted...

For doing what, making sock accounts on Facebook that copypastad Trump memes?

for even attempting to interfere. i dont get why you're defending Russia here. you can say that them doing what they did was wrong without betraying Agent Orange, you know.
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sobergermanguy posted...

Why else would the POTUS refuse to impose sanctions that passed congress 98-2

Not only did the sanctions pass Congress, but he himself signed them into law
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Russia's propaganda campaign is "meddling."
The DNC manipulating their primary is "rigging."
If Russia managed to dis-enroll voters and/or alter vote counts, that's "stealing the election."

imo
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The things that I think would constitute meddling beyond just troll farms (which tbh is somewhat concerning, but not anymore concerning than America based troll farms):

1. If Russia removed voters from the rolls in states via breaching the state level election systems, that's meddling in a very similar way to actually changing votes.

2. If Russia was behind the DNC hacks, that would seem to be meddling, in the same way that we would view Russia being behind a hack on an actual government organization as an attack.
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Antifar posted...

The most damning allegation made so far is that they attempted to breach state level election systems. Were they even successful in that?

Not the ballot machines to my knowledge, but they did reportedly get the voter registration rolls of a few states.
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Giant_Aspirin posted...

for even attempting to interfere. i dont get why you're defending Russia here.

Because trolling on Facebook can't possibly be construed as "interference" except by hysterical anti-Trump people.

You know the DNC actually pays people to troll online, right? In exactly the way Russia supposedly did? Look up "Correct The Record". But wait I guess it's ok when a US political party attempts to "interfere" with the election, huh?
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Anteaterking posted...

The things that I think would constitute meddling beyond just troll farms (which tbh is somewhat concerning, but not anymore concerning than America based troll farms):

1. If Russia removed voters from the rolls in states via breaching the state level election systems, that's meddling in a very similar way to actually changing votes.

2. If Russia was behind the DNC hacks, that would seem to be meddling, in the same way that we would view Russia being behind a hack on an actual government organization as an attack.

I would also include:

3. If Russia funded the RNC, either directly or indirectly.
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All the evidence is there.

They've invaded two countries because of political differences and they've played these political games to incite the population against the sitting governments in Germany and Sweden, and against the Ukrainian government in the Netherlands. They perpetrated that "ransomware" attack that caused massive damage to Ukrainian and Western companies. And it's already been very well established that they were probing more than 20 states' election systems and funding propaganda campaigns on US social media in order to create discord among the population and subsequently the voting base. Not to mention the fact that RT is the most transparent government-funded propaganda "news" outlet ever.

This is their MO. There is absolutely zero reason to believe that they did not attempt to interfere in the election, the only question is to what extent.
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I don't think it's even really a question at this point, is it? They clearly attempted to influence the election, that much has been proven. If you weren't sure before today, I'd say the indictments make it pretty obvious.

The real question is whether or not anyone in the US government was complicit in it, on either side.
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https://twitter.com/MattBinder/status/964594541578932224/photo/1
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BLAKUboy posted...

Antifar posted...

The most damning allegation made so far is that they attempted to breach state level election systems. Were they even successful in that?

Not the ballot machines to my knowledge, but they did reportedly get the voter registration rolls of a few states.

There's been confirmation that Russia gained access to voter registration rolls. We can be relatively certain that they used this information to guide their social media campaign. It's yet to be determined whether they were able to alter the rolls. What's particularly concerning, though, is that reports of Russia's success have been upgraded a couple of times now... hopefully for the last time, but it could still be worse than we thought.
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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/feb/16/robert-mueller-russians-charged-election
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Sephiroth1288 posted...

Giant_Aspirin posted...

for even attempting to interfere. i dont get why you're defending Russia here.

Because trolling on Facebook can't possibly be construed as "interference" except by hysterical anti-Trump people.

You know the DNC actually pays people to troll online, right? In exactly the way Russia supposedly did? Look up "Correct The Record". But wait I guess it's ok when a US political party attempts to "interfere" with the election, huh?

they also orchestrated the hack of the DNC and released a bunch of data specifically with the intention of influencing the election. i can't see how you're not alarmed by a foreign adversary doing this --- oh right because it benefited your side.

i have no problem with the DNC messing with American politics because they're part of American politics. nice try tho

there are 13 indictments handed out today that confirm Russia *did* meddle and here you are, insisting they didn't because you're one of those extremist cases i was talking about earlier.
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I believe they have been doing so since long before I was born.

I believe the US has been doing the same to other countries all around the world since long before I was born.

I believe they'll both still be doing it long after I'm dead.

Giant_Aspirin posted...

they also orchestrated the hack of the DNC

The DNC? You must be mistaken, they hacked into a person's private email server not connected to the government in any way. How could that be construed as meddling int he election?

Giant_Aspirin posted...

i can't see how you're not alarmed by a foreign adversary doing this --- oh right because it benefited your side.

I can't see how you're not alarmed by all the unbelievably shady shit revealed in those emails that "your side" was up to!
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How many elections have the US interfered with?
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Musourenka posted...

3. If Russia funded the RNC, either directly or indirectly.

Yeah, but that to me falls under the standard purview of campaign finance laws, so the consequences feel well laid out.
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Please stop feeding Mal
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Cheater87 posted...

How many elections have the US interfered with?

I don't understand responses like this. It's not as if I mock countries for being mad when we interfere with their election.

Like in the past the CIA has been accused of assassinating leaders of countries, but that doesn't mean I would shrug it off if a country assassinated our president.
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UnholyMudcrab posted...

Please stop feeding Mal

But...I need your hatred in order to get stronger
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Sephiroth1288 posted...

The DNC? You must be mistaken, they hacked into a person's private email server not connected to the government in any way. How could that be construed as meddling int he election?

hair splitting aside, they conducted cyber attacks in an effort to manipulate the outcome of the election.

so why do you continue to insist there was "no meddling" despite the indictments that came out today that confirm exactly that? please answer without deflecting

Sephiroth1288 posted...

I can't see how you're not alarmed by all the unbelievably shady shit revealed in those emails that "your side" was up to!

you're deflecting. is that because you can't answer?

but for the record, i do think the shit Hilary did during the Democrat primaries surrounding Bernie was despicable. i never really cared for Hilary and that just made my dislike of her stronger.
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Anteaterking posted...

Cheater87 posted...

How many elections have the US interfered with?

I don't understand responses like this. It's not as if I mock countries for being mad when we interfere with their election.

Like in the past the CIA has been accused of assassinating leaders of countries, but that doesn't mean I would shrug it off if a country assassinated our president.

It's literally a page out of the Russian propaganda playbook.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

And holy shit, just look how much of it there is in this topic
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Probably. Just as the US sticks its nose into other nations elections.
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Giant_Aspirin posted...

Antifar posted...

Yes, but not on a scale deserving of the attention it has received

a foreign power, especially one as adversarial as Russia, meddling in our democracy isn't alarming to you? i think our government needs to respond in a strong way to indicate that shit will not stand.

I wouldn't call some 4chan meme bots a foreign power.
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Giant_Aspirin posted...

hair splitting aside, they conducted cyber attacks in an effort to manipulate the outcome of the election.

so why do you continue to insist there was "no meddling" despite the indictments that came out today that confirm exactly that?

This is precisely why government officials aren't allowed to conduct their business on private servers. Precisely why. Getting access into a person's private email server is a crime, but it's not to be construed with hacking the election.

Hillary and all the DNC idiots who knew about it are to blame for the hack. All the hackers did was reveal the DNC's dirty laundry and the fact that people care more about their side losing than how the party they support is a cesspool of corrupt bottomfeeders is legitimately terrifying.

Giant_Aspirin posted...

you're deflecting. is that because you can't answer?

Why should I feel bad about the emails getting stolen when the DNC are the ones who mishandled their information in the first place.

No one actually "hacked" the server by the way, Podesta fell for a phishing scam and unwittingly gave the password away. The "Russians" are guilty of stealing the emails in the same way a guy finding a wad of cash someone carelessly dropped was stealing.
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iron jojo posted...

Giant_Aspirin posted...

Antifar posted...

Yes, but not on a scale deserving of the attention it has received

a foreign power, especially one as adversarial as Russia, meddling in our democracy isn't alarming to you? i think our government needs to respond in a strong way to indicate that shit will not stand.

I wouldn't call some 4chan meme bots a foreign power.

I don't understand what drives you to close your eyes to clear, demonstrable evidence that the Russian government operates in this manner on a daily basis around the world. I don't understand this logic.
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Hexenherz posted...

iron jojo posted...

Giant_Aspirin posted...

Antifar posted...

Yes, but not on a scale deserving of the attention it has received

a foreign power, especially one as adversarial as Russia, meddling in our democracy isn't alarming to you? i think our government needs to respond in a strong way to indicate that shit will not stand.

I wouldn't call some 4chan meme bots a foreign power.

I don't understand what drives you to close your eyes to clear, demonstrable evidence that the Russian government operates in this manner on a daily basis around the world. I don't understand this logic.

If a handful of trolls on Facebook were actually sufficient to cause Trump to stomp Hillary in the election, chances are she would have lost without the trolls too.
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Sephiroth1288 posted...

Giant_Aspirin posted...

hair splitting aside, they conducted cyber attacks in an effort to manipulate the outcome of the election.

so why do you continue to insist there was "no meddling" despite the indictments that came out today that confirm exactly that?

This is precisely why government officials aren't allowed to conduct their business on private servers. Precisely why. Getting access into a person's private email server is a crime, but it's not to be construed with hacking the election.

Hillary and all the DNC idiots who knew about it are to blame for the hack. All the hackers did was reveal the DNC's dirty laundry and the fact that people care more about their side losing than how the party they support is a cesspool of corrupt bottomfeeders is legitimately terrifying.

Giant_Aspirin posted...

you're deflecting. is that because you can't answer?

Why should I feel bad about the emails getting stolen when the DNC are the ones who mishandled their information in the first place.

No one actually "hacked" the server by the way, Podesta fell for a phishing scam and unwittingly gave the password away. The "Russians" are guilty of stealing the emails in the same way a guy finding a wad of cash someone carelessly dropped was stealing.

so why do you continue to insist there was "no meddling" despite the indictments that came out today that confirm exactly that? why won't you answer that question? why do you keep deflecting instead of answering?

edit: and i especially enjoy see you respond to "why are you deflecting?" with a two paragraph deflection.
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Sephiroth1288 posted...

If a handful of trolls on Facebook were actually sufficient to cause Trump to stomp Hillary in the election, chances are she would have lost without the trolls too.

Why isn't this same mentality applied to e.g. non-existent voter fraud?

In addition to:
Sephiroth1288 posted...

The "Russians" are guilty of stealing the emails in the same way a guy finding a wad of cash someone carelessly dropped was stealing.

It's not as if the sentence for robbing a store is based on how good the security was.
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I don't think they meddled but I do believe they fiddled.
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Giant_Aspirin posted...

so why do you continue to insist there was "no meddling" despite the indictments that came out today that confirm exactly that?

Because I don't consider trolling on Facebook to be "meddling" in any meaningful way.
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