Current Events > What are the main criticisms of Last Jedi? (Spoilers)

(+) Yeah! (+)

Saw the movie a few days, and I enjoyed it. I didn't care at all for the last two films and I think people take the franchise too seriously as a whole, but liked this one overall, although there were a few things I would have changed.

Haven't really delved into the fan response yet, but I know that there are people who want it removed from canon (lol) and others who keep throwing around terms like SJW and Mary Sue. I can understand dislike for any movie, but what is this all about? What are some other critiques out there at the moment?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUYJEwI82WQ
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They try to be too silly and goofy

They turn snoke into a joke after making him out to be this behind the scenes mastermind

Kylo isn't nearly as swole as he should be

They made Luke look like a whiny turd most of the movie
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Mostly pacing issues, the completely unnecessary casino side plot, the Rose/Finn love thing, SuperLeia, and Luke's character being trashed. Honestly, i don't really get the last one because THE CHARACTER HIMSELF even said it was out-of-character for him and he immediately regretted his moment of weakness.

- Leia flying through space
- Yoda using force thunderstorm
- Yoda appearing at all
- The Jedi texts
- Snoke getting nuttzed too early, and being a wasted villain in general
- Finn and asian girls side plot, which was completely pointless
- Leia not crashing the ship into the big ship at the end
- Kylo is a box
- Luke's character in general
- Horrible pacing in general
- Admiral Ackbar getting shoved away
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I always loved Star Wars, but I would have had the same problems with this movie even if it wasn't a Star Wars movie.

I thought the humor was off during the entire film. It all started with Poe making mom jokes while attacking an imperial fleet and it kept right on going. It took the tension and drama out of every scene. The jokes really weren't funny either way, unless you are nine years old I guess. Made me literally cringe and feel embarrassed to be sitting in the theater.

I felt there was hardly any character development from the first one for any of the characters and the plot and subplots were all pretty boring.

I don't know what will happen in the next movie, but for the first time, I really don't care.

I could point out a million random nitpicky Star Wars nerd things that bothered me, but I won't bother.
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The theories that me and my fellow dwellers spent countless, woman-less hours on Reddit convincing ourselves that they were right didn't come to fruition. Therefore we hate it.

DoGCyN posted...

- Leia flying through space

wow it's almost like she can use a very basic force move

DoGCyN posted...

- Yoda using force thunderstorm
- Yoda appearing at all
-The Jedi texts

wait why are any of these bad at all

DoGCyN posted...

- Snoke getting nuttzed too early, and being a wasted villain in general

I mean it's probably just me but that didn't bug me at all. Make's Kylo's arc way more interesting, and I never particularly gave a shit about Snoke and saw him as a rehashed Emperor anyway.

DoGCyN posted...

- Finn and asian girls side plot, which was completely pointless

I mean I'll agree the Canto Bight stuff was the weakest part of the film
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ALIEN_WORK2HOP posted...

I thought the humor was off during the entire film. It all started with Poe making mom jokes while attacking an imperial fleet and it kept right on going. It took the tension and drama out of every scene. The jokes really weren't funny either way, unless you are nine years old I guess. Made me literally cringe and feel embarrassed to be sitting in the theater.

I mean he made *a* mom joke. Singular. I will agree though that that felt out of place in the film.

The rest of the humor criticisms I don't get. Are there particular jokes that stood out to you?
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For me -

- They weaponized hyperspace, which has big implications on the entire series
- They kind of jerked around Luke's character although he did get his redemption in the end
- They played everything for laughs, way more than necessary or comfortable
- Rey is apparently a Jedi god equal to Kylo Ren after receiving like, two abstract 5-minute lessons from Luke
- Missed opportunities to kill Leia off
- They took everything Abrams tried to build in the previous movie and tossed it out, almost like that movie doesn't even matter anymore now
- We're now going into the final star wars movie and the most "scary" threat to the galaxy are two Looney Tunes villains who couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery
- I personally liked Yoda appearing but the way he just summoned a lightning storm while A GHOST pissed me off. Also something that has big implications on the series.

I don't agree with the "SJW ruined star wars" shit, I think that's just angry nerds pointing to the usual scapegoats for their impotent rage. But I do think they made some poor narrative decisions
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Doom_Art posted...

wow it's almost like she can use a very basic force move

1) Leia never used this once in any other segment or movie. Her using it now is very out of place.
2) The bigger problem is Leia keeping her body together in space in general. I get that this is a fictional universe, but her bare body staying together in space is stupidly far fetched. Unless we're assuming she used the force for that too, which would be even more stupid.

Doom_Art posted...

wait why are any of these bad at all

The Jedi texts never existed. Ever. Using them as a meaningful plot point failed. It further failed when they got destroyed.

Yoda appearing in and of itself isn't a bad thing, but they made him appear in probably the worst way possible. They tried to make it feel like an OMG moment and as a teacher, similar to when Ben appeared in ESB. It's another copy/paste moment from the original Trilogy.

Yoda using the force while dead basically means he isn't dead. That's dumb. Him appearing is one thing, him still being this all powerful ghost is another, and it doesn't work well.

Furthermore, him using the force to have a lightning bolt strike a wooden house to catch it on fire is another new force move we've never seen before. Another attempt to try and be "cool"; it came off as another stupid dumb idea that doesn't really fit into the whatever the big picture is supposed to be.

Doom_Art posted...

I mean it's probably just me but that didn't bug me at all. Make's Kylo's arc way more interesting, and I never particularly gave a s*** about Snoke and saw him as a rehashed Emperor anyway.

He WAS a rehashed Emperor, and that's one of the problems. He was a rehashed villain in general. Then they killed him off in a very pointless and uneventful way. He was completely wasted as a character.
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DoGCyN posted...

1) Leia never used this once in any other segment or movie. Her using it now is very out of place.
2) The bigger problem is Leia keeping her body together in space in general. I get that this is a fictional universe, but her bare body staying together in space is stupidly far fetched. Unless we're assuming she used the force for that too, which would be even more stupid.

1) We've known about her force sensitivity since Episode V. It's been several decades since then. Makes sense that even if she's not a Jedi her powers would've grown a bit.
2) Unless I'm mistaken, the whole "your body explodes in space" is a myth. You pretty much just freeze. Even then it apparently takes a few minutes.

DoGCyN posted...

The Jedi texts never existed. Ever.

I don't see what you're getting at here. They clearly did exist. They were there. We saw them.

DoGCyN posted...

Yoda appearing in and of itself isn't a bad thing, but they made him appear in probably the worst way possible. They tried to make it feel like an OMG moment and as a teacher, similar to when Ben appeared in ESB. It's another copy/paste moment from the original Trilogy.

I mean, Yoda was Luke's teacher. Or one of his teachers anyway.

And that scene was similar to the Obi-Wan scene in the sense that they were both force ghosts showing up to Luke.

Apart from that, I'm not seeing similarities.

DoGCyN posted...

Yoda using the force while dead basically means he isn't dead.

I mean when he died he became one with the Force. Why wouldn't he be able to use the Force?

DoGCyN posted...

Furthermore, him using the force to have a lightning bolt strike a wooden house to catch it on fire is another new force move we've never seen before.

We've seen force lightning a bunch of times. The lightning strike just seemed like an extension of that.

DoGCyN posted...

He WAS a rehashed Emperor, and that's one of the problems. He was a rehashed villain in general. Then they killed him off in a very pointless and uneventful way. He was completely wasted as a character.

Iunno, this is where we have no common ground, I guess. Rather than seeing him developed, it's far more interesting the way things went in the film.

IMO of course.
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Doom_Art posted...

ALIEN_WORK2HOP posted...

I thought the humor was off during the entire film. It all started with Poe making mom jokes while attacking an imperial fleet and it kept right on going. It took the tension and drama out of every scene. The jokes really weren't funny either way, unless you are nine years old I guess. Made me literally cringe and feel embarrassed to be sitting in the theater.

I mean he made *a* mom joke. Singular. I will agree though that that felt out of place in the film.

The rest of the humor criticisms I don't get. Are there particular jokes that stood out to you?

That's tough, I only saw the movie once and I don't remember all if it in such detail to be able to point out every awkward joke. Even if I did, it would take too long.
I just remember a lot of jokes and I got a marvel vibe out if it. Which is fine for a movie like Guardians of the Galaxy, but not a movie like Star Wars with it's darker themes.

I remember where the pink haired admiral chick goes off to sacrifice herself, which should be a pretty intense and emotional moment. Instead we get an awkward dialog between her and Leia where they both say may the force be with you and laugh about it, even though the lady is about to sacrifice her life. Cool that they can laugh about it! Really makes me feel for her.

They also made Hux seem like a total clown in this movie, being the brunt of plenty of jokes or him being force thrown around like a rag doll by both Snoke and Ren....how can you take him seriously as a villain? Please compare that to the imperial generals in the first movies...they got offed, but at least they could be taken seriously.
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The problem is that it wasn't a shot for shot remake of Empire Strikes Back.
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VTBM posted...

The problem is that it wasn't a shot for shot remake of Empire Strikes Back.

lmao

The problem most people seem to have is Leia zip zooming through space, Snoke being a waste, Luke being whiny, and Finn's shit being pointless.

Personally, I loved it, and I agree TC- people take this shit way too seriously. They're fun movies- but they've always had glaring issues.
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DoGCyN posted...

The Jedi texts never existed. Ever. Using them as a meaningful plot point failed. It further failed when they got destroyed.

Ummmmmm....they didn't get destroyed?

Rey took them. She's got them. You see them at the end of the movie when Finn pulls the blanket out of the drawer on the Falcon.
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ALIEN_WORK2HOP posted...

I just remember a lot of jokes and I got a marvel vibe out if it. Which is fine for a movie like Guardians of the Galaxy, but not a movie like Star Wars with it's darker themes.

Folks keep saying this, and I just don't see it at all. Seen it three times with this particular criticism in mind and I just don't see it.

Same goes for the people I've seen it with, we don't get it.

ALIEN_WORK2HOP posted...

I remember where the pink haired admiral chick goes off to sacrifice herself, which should be a pretty intense and emotional moment. Instead we get an awkward dialog between her and Leia where they both say may the force be with you and laugh about it, even though the lady is about to sacrifice her life. Cool that they can laugh about it! Really makes me feel for her.

I mean they were clearly friends and clearly had a history.

I didn't think that moment was supposed to be played for laughs.

ALIEN_WORK2HOP posted...

They also made Hux seem like a total clown in this movie, being the brunt of plenty of jokes or him being force thrown around like a rag doll by both Snoke and Ren....how can you take him seriously as a villain? Please compare that to the imperial generals in the first movies...they got offed, but at least they could be taken seriously.

I mean he gets tossed around maybe once as a joke, that's in the shuttle at the end when Ren is swinging his dick around to assert his authority.

The other two I can remember are Snoke dragging him around for letting the Resistance get away, which wasn't really funny.

And Ren grabbing/force-choking him to assert himself as the new Supreme Leader.

Again, none of those are really joke-y
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Also, cause I'm getting heated:

DoGCyN posted...

2) The bigger problem is Leia keeping her body together in space in general. I get that this is a fictional universe, but her bare body staying together in space is stupidly far fetched. Unless we're assuming she used the force for that too, which would be even more stupid.

We should really keep any realism argument out of star wars. You know what else is far fetched? Anything the force has ever done.

Honestly the second they introduced the force is the second they gained freewill to do whatever they want with their universe.
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The movie runs too long and seems to have two endings. It's an issue because it messes with the sense of time, particularly during the casino side plot. Really, there's a lot of mess here. It's not bad, it's just messy. Like two or three movies stapled to one another, messy. A lot of people dislike this interpretation of Luke, but I really like the Luke and Rey bits. I find this development believable for Luke, and I think the appearance of Yoda at the end is a nice cap to this sequence. The whole sequence feels very cohesive, or would were we allowed to stay there.

Finn is a bit wasted as a character here. Despite having the most intimate experience with the First Order, and a backstory that should make him immediately sympathize with many aspects of this plot, he keeps getting relegated to comic relief. Frankly, I don't think Rose fairs any better. Also Rose should have let him make that kamikaze attack. What she does makes no plot sense.

The casino planet isn't the worst. Or it doesn't have to be, in theory. It just kind of was. I can't believe they get arrested for what is essentially a parking ticket. Also, the alien horse race is utter schlock and really needed to be cut entirely. I don't even know what to do with the "It was worth it," comment. I'm literally only watching this so we can get back to your friends saving the galaxy from galactic fascism. What the fuck are you talking about being 'worth it?' And what did any of the last fifteen minutes have to do with the prime plot. How did this survive the script editing? Can't you feel how long and drawn out this is in the film edit? It feels like fifteen minutes of Big Lipped Alligators. Cut it.

Poe is a dummy and spends 75% of the movie being a dummy because the plot demands it. When the switch is flipped and he's suddenly not a dummy anymore, it feels really sudden and undeserved. I don't get it. He was impulsive in TFA, but not a dummy. At times, he doesn't even feel like the same character.

Why is Holdo concealing the nature of her plan? The film doesn't misdirect us with a mole plot, which would have tied this up nicely and justified Poe's misguided attempt at mutiny. With 180 minutes runtime, you could totally juggle this, especially if you're going to keep the horse race. But just let's us ponder it for an hour while Poe acts on information he doesn't have to further complicate things. Really, neither of them are dumb, what's going on here? This screams plot convenience.

The film disagrees with J.J. Abrams interpretation of Hux as the competent one. Here he's largely comic relief. Not a criticism, just an observation.

There are so many questions and intrigues from the TFA that TLJ wants to hand wave and pretend they aren't a big deal. It gives so many non-answers for a franchise that's constantly pumping out lore. Look at the publishing machine surrounding this franchise. So many comics, shows, and novels, all devoted to expanding the universe. TLJ wanted to do it's own things and doesn't really expand the lore at all, or try and fit aspects of itself into what we assume we know. I'm not going to begrudge a film that. Directors need to be able to direct. But what is here, is less neat and less fun than the tapestry created and referenced by the surrounding Star Wars materials. And that seemed pretty intentional.

So many moments where I'm left shrugging my shoulders wondering why I've devoted so much energy into keeping up with all the lore if the film is just going to tell me it doesn't matter. It's baffling. I mean look at the franchise? Is Rian Johnson sure he wants to direct a Star Wars movie, because I legitimately don't know. This all mires itself in a very unsatisfying debate about the conflict between the creator and their fans, and there are frankly better pieces of media around which to stage such a conversation.

TLDR: I'm deeply conflicted about this film, and not for the reasons I want to be.
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Doom_Art posted...

1) We've known about her force sensitivity since Episode V. It's been several decades since then. Makes sense that even if she's not a Jedi her powers would've grown a bit.
2) Unless I'm mistaken, the whole "your body explodes in space" is a myth. You pretty much just freeze. Even then it apparently takes a few minutes.

1) Yes we've known about her force sensitivity but it's never been used willfully until that very point. Even in Force Awakens it wasn't used. They would've needed to establish her using it at some point for that scene to come off less stupid. It doesn't matter how big of a time gap there was. She may as well have been using a lightsaber too.
2) I didn't specifically mean "explodes", but yes, your body would freeze.

Doom_Art posted...

I don't see what you're getting at here. They clearly did exist. They were there. We saw them.

They existed in The Last Jedi only. We never saw them or heard of them prior to this movie. This is why they are a dumb addition.

Doom_Art posted...

I mean when he died he became one with the Force. Why wouldn't he be able to use the Force?

I just answered why. It a dumb premise because he may as well not be dead. Let's have him appear before Snoke too and have a force battle. Why not?

The point is in this movie, they kept throwing terrible curve-balls at the audience trying to instigate a "wow" factor. This also hurt the pacing of the movie.

Doom_Art posted...

We've seen force lightning a bunch of times. The lightning strike just seemed like an extension of that.

While dead, and a very far-fetched extension. Seeing some tiny lightning bolts form around Jedi's hands vs controlling a giant lightning bolt in the sky. Rubs me the wrong way, sorry.

Aristoph posted...

Ummmmmm....they didn't get destroyed?

Rey took them. She's got them. You see them at the end of the movie when Finn pulls the blanket out of the drawer on the Falcon.

Oh, I must've been too dumbfounded and missed that. My bad.

Asherlee10 posted...

I swear I thought I remembered something about Jedi sacred texts in the Old Republic.

I wasn't aware that the MMO was canon.
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ChromaticAngel posted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUYJEwI82WQ

Chuckled

On-topic: Nothing of substance happened. The movie was a two hour slow-crawl chase through space, followed by an anti-climactic "final battle" with old spaceships v. modern imperial fighters that somehow can't kill Finn as he literally beelines in a straight line to try and suicide bomb the cannon. "Luke" v. Kylo was cool, but then ruined because Luke wasn't actually there, who then later fizzled off into the sunset for no reason (though one could argue he was dead the whole time).
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Doom_Art posted...

wow it's almost like she can use a very basic force move

What? No one's ever flown or pulled themselves to a ship like that. That'd be a super advanced force move.

And a Force Ghost using the Force to affect the real world is dumb as it means they're just unstoppable, intangible warriors who are kind of dicks for not helping out and destroying all evil. Also defeats the purpose of death.
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I think the most hardest hitting criticism, is that for all it's commentary and subversion of a Star Wars blockbuster, TLJ is still very much the same. I left the theater not terribly hyped for the final movie of this trilogy, or any other Star Wars movies, because the movies can't seem to imagine a plot beyond "overworked rebels and the star-killing fascists who lose to them."

What are we looking forward to now in episode IX? The inevitable showdown between Rey and Ren? The recreation of the republic? An even biggest death star than Starkiller base?

Knowledge_King posted...

And a Force Ghost using the Force to affect the real world is dumb as it means they're just unstoppable, intangible warriors who are kind of dicks for not helping out and destroying all evil. Also defeats the purpose of death.

To be fair. You have to be a particularly talented Jedi to even leave a Force ghost. Creating his Force projection took Obi Wan fifteen years of practice and mediation. And Yoda is a particularly old and powerful blip in the Force even as a ghost, so I'm willing to hand wave that.
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If you're too young and hip to watch six muddy old movies, learn the lore of an established franchise and spend time getting lost in a treasure trove of expanded media content, then The Last Jedi is the film for you.

It's just got enough space nonsense that you get both your nerd and capeshit cred without any of the substance that comes from a well crafted narrative.

Which is to say the film was garbage
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admiral purple hair
Lightspeed ramming
Slow speed space chase
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DoGCyN posted...

2) The bigger problem is Leia keeping her body together in space in general. I get that this is a fictional universe, but her bare body staying together in space is stupidly far fetched. Unless we're assuming she used the force for that too, which would be even more stupid.

You'd only get your eardrums blown out if you were somehow ejected into space. You can probably even survive for a minute or two. The scene was stupid for plenty of reasons but this isn't one of them.
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It eschews what makes sense in context of the world and its lore, and instead goes for what looks good. I liked the movie, but it was a very shallow experience.
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Asherlee10 posted...

On top of that, KotOR wasn't an MMO

Forgive me, you said "Old Republic", so I assumed you meant Star Wars: The Old Republic.

Asherlee10 posted...

Also, the texts were introduced in the movie, so now they exist. I don't get what you are so bothered about.

It was just a stupid addition that was never introduced prior. Of all we learned about the Jedi in the previous Star Wars entries, there was never mention of any texts. It felt very forced to try and keep "The Jedi Religion" alive. So yes, it does bother me, and this is a valid reason why.

Not the worst thing in the movie, but still a stupid one.
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Some of the criticisms about how the plot was written are probably right. But those are drowned out by the super hardcore fans who are upset the Disney is ruining their childhood or something.

TC it is literally because manchildren wanted another space ninja jesus movie and not like yknow something like an actually good film.

The humour was def hit and miss though.
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NinjaBreakfast posted...

TC it is literally because manchildren wanted another space ninja jesus movie and not like yknow something like an actually good film.

Except they didn't get either.
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Well for starters Luke was supposed to be this amazing Jedi master with unmatched force powers yet we saw none of that. He died like a wimp.

Huge letdown tbh
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it is certainly a lot closer to being an objectively good movie than ANH2 or the hopeless prequels anyway
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Sparksfanboy posted...

I know he got people killed but he also saved everyone's ass in that first scene and demoting him at a critical moment in the Resistance was a lamebrained idea that Leia never would have done.

I don't think you're remembering this correctly. He calls in the rest of his team after disabling the cannons on the dreadnought, not before. Leia orders him to return immediately afterwards, and he disregards her order and calls out the whole bomber squad> so they can destroy the dreadnought. Destroying the cannons was all they needed for their escape. Ignoring a direct order from a general and getting the whole bomber squad killed on a whim is blindingly stupid. Demotion is not punishment enough for that level of fuck up. And watching TFA you'd think he knew better. Those men and women were his friends and brothers an arms and trusted him with their lives. Where is the remorse?

She slaps him on the wrist, and he acts salty about it for the whole movie. And then he gets huffy when Holdo get's his promotion, and when she locks him out of the loop. This bitch tries to introduce himself to her as a Captain, thinking that she doesn't know that Leia demoted him. And then stews when she puts him in his place. It's so petty of him. Like this is not a battle for your honor Poe. You've known Leia for how long, why are you so stuck up in personal drama that you can't see the bigger picture?
This movie stops just short of character assassination for Poe here.
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NinjaBreakfast posted...

it is certainly a lot closer to being an objectively good movie than ANH2 or the hopeless prequels anyway

It's nowhere near close to an objectively good movie. If it was, everyone would love it. It's subjectively good or bad through and through.
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the trope subversion worked great throughout and it's very telling that certain people can't get their heads around it.

i do think that Poe was altogether *too* deferential towards his higher ups by the end of the film, though. like they could've more gradually worked on that character development rather than have him go 0 - 100 after his last gambit failed.
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hollow_shrine posted...

It's so petty of him. Like this is not a battle for your honor Poe. You've known Leia for how long, why are you so stuck up in personal drama that you can't see the bigger picture?

This is where I disagree. All Holdo needed to do was share the information. Poe not seeing the bigger picture? Several others apparently didn't see the bigger picture either and Poe staged a Coup because of that, along with those people who also thought Holdo was a traitor. All she needed to do was keep people on her side, and she utterly failed at that.

I should say...the writers failed.
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Yikes, look at the mess I caused. I'll have to come back later and respond to a bunch of things.

I will say this about the humor: hit or miss. Star Wars, even at its most serious, has always had goofy moments. What I didn't like was how the jokes were structured and delivered. I think that could have been worked on better.

More thoughts later.
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I think the more 'physical' comedy worked decently enough and I think that was fairly consistent in tone with Star Wars as a franchise. Shit like the rock hitting into those...things' cart or BB8 hitting into things. Pretty harmless, vaguely amusing stuff.

The quips less so. Luke brushing his shoulder was also really lame (although probably the exact sort of thing people complaining about him being ruined would want him to do!) but I think overall the humour worked more than it didn't.
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DoGCyN posted...

hollow_shrine posted...

It's so petty of him. Like this is not a battle for your honor Poe. You've known Leia for how long, why are you so stuck up in personal drama that you can't see the bigger picture?

This is where I disagree. All Holdo needed to do was share the information. Poe not seeing the bigger picture? Several others apparently didn't see the bigger picture either and Poe staged a Coup because of that, along with those people who also thought Holdo was a traitor. All she needed to do was keep people on her side, and she utterly failed at that.

It's not that Poe thinks she's a traitor, he thinks she's a coward and that she's giving up their last stand against the First Order. Otherwise I agree. It may not make sense for her to share that information with him, chain of command and all that, but she needed to share it with someone. There's no established reason she doesn't. Their whole dynamic is incompetent communication. I wish the plot had tried to introduce a traitor/mole suspicion plot here, because it would do a lot to clean this up and unburden me of some of my nitpicks.
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