Board 8 > Ace Attorney Topic Part 2: The Continuation (Spoilers for AA1-6, AAI1-2)

(+) Yeah! (+)

I actually kinda dislike that Phoenix busts Apollo's chops so much instead of being a real mentor to him. There were signs of it in 4-1, and then he basically yanks his chain for the rest of the game. Thankfully, DD and SoJ rectified that in a huge way, but still.

So yeah, Hobonix has problems, but he's generally pretty great when he's not being a jerk to Apollo or patronizing to his daughter.
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Paratroopa1 posted...

"Lying must be a pastime in Borginia. And also wherever you're from, Mr. Justice."

ha

if he only knew
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It's a little bit hard to reconcile AA4 Phoenix with post-AA4 Phoenix sometimes, but oh well.

I've always seen aa5/6 Phoenix as the issue, not 4
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It would have been so much better if they could have really captured the essence of AA4 Phoenix after he returns to being a lawyer, but I feel like he's kind of no different than he was in AA1-3 now

Eh, the MASON System shows the old Phoenix is still in there. I just don't know why he decided to put on this raging apathy front in AJ because he's not actually apathetic.
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LeonhartFour posted...

Eh, the MASON System shows the old Phoenix is still in there. I just don't know why he decided to put on this raging apathy front in AJ because he's not actually apathetic.

I mean I do agree that he jerks Apollo's chain way more than necessary in AA4 for no reason, but I like the way he's mellowed out. I really don't think he's comes across as apathetic, that seems like something he's doing as a joke really, it's clear he cares as much as he always did I think, he's just not concerned with showing it.

Paratroopa1 posted...

It would have been so much better if they could have really captured the essence of AA4 Phoenix after he returns to being a lawyer, but I feel like he's kind of no different than he was in AA1-3 now

Well, they clearly wanted the old Phoenix back, but I don't know if you can have him being the chessmaster when he's the viewpoint character.
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LeonhartFour posted...

Paratroopa1 posted...

It would have been so much better if they could have really captured the essence of AA4 Phoenix after he returns to being a lawyer, but I feel like he's kind of no different than he was in AA1-3 now

Well, they clearly wanted the old Phoenix back, but I don't know if you can have him being the chessmaster when he's the viewpoint character.

I just mean in the sense that like, I think a lot of Phoenix's snarky inner monologue in AA1-3 is just on full display as an outer part of his character in AA4, and I like that about him

I think Phoenix snarks outwardly more when he's not the viewpoint character in DD or SoJ. They had to put it on the outside in AJ because, well, how else are you going to see it?
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He's almost always the viewpoint character in DD and SoJ when he's around though, with 6-5 being the only seriously big exception. And I definitely don't remember any AA4 Phoenix on display there.

Maybe it's because AA4 Phoenix never actually does any lawyering, but he just seems so unflappable in AA4, whereas in the later games he's back to being decidedly flappable.

yeah, aa4 phoenix himself is actually great. it's 4-0 that's the problem. i do think aa5 phoenix is bad, but aa6 phoenix feels a lot more confident in general. he's just put into insane situations compared to aa5 so his confusion feels more earned.

agreed that it's a POV thing. POV characters have to have self-doubt and usually can't have master plans. probably the highest points that the AA1-3 phoenix reaches on that regard are 1-4 and 3-3, where he figures out the keys to DL-6 and bringing down tigre.
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Paratroopa1 posted...

Maybe it's because AA4 Phoenix never actually does any lawyering, but he just seems so unflappable in AA4, whereas in the later games he's back to being decidedly flappable.

well it helps that he had seven years to put it all together instead of having to figure it out in 1 or 2 days like he always does

I think 6-5 day 1 would've been a great opportunity to pull this off (and he has his moments) but then they did a lazy retread instead so oh well

Paratroopa1 posted...

He's almost always the viewpoint character in DD and SoJ when he's around though, with 6-5 being the only seriously big exception. And I definitely don't remember any AA4 Phoenix on display there.

He's around a decent bit in 5-3. I actually kind of like his Fifty Shades of Gray jab at Athena there. Plus, he urges her to perform their own investigation before everyone shows up because of "reasons," those reasons being forged evidence and crime scene tampering.

also one of my favorite exchanges in 6-5 is when Apollo makes a wild claim and Phoenix, without missing a beat, just goes, "You're bluffing, right?"

like he's not even mad he's just callin' 'em as he sees 'em

SeabassDebeste posted...

agreed that it's a POV thing. POV characters have to have self-doubt and usually can't have master plans.

Well, I've said many times that I think one of the weaknesses of the AAI games is that Edgeworth is too smart. It's extremely hard to slip something by him or stump him in a way that feels legitimate. Having Phoenix or Apollo never be too far ahead of the player is probably a good thing.
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SeabassDebeste posted...

yeah, aa4 phoenix himself is actually great. it's 4-0 that's the problem. i do think aa5 phoenix is bad, but aa6 phoenix feels a lot more confident in general. he's just put into insane situations compared to aa5 so his confusion feels more earned.

This is... the opposite of how I feel, re AA5 and AA6. In AA5 Phoenix felt reasonably unflappable except when it was deserved (mostly during 5-5). I don't remember him being shaken much in 5-DLC for instance.

In AA6 you have Phoenix missing obvious things even during the tutorial case. It felt like there were several cases of there being a glaring hole in the prosecution's case and Phoenix's internal monologue was "time for a crazy bluff!", which is not a good feeling. Don't imply I'm bluffing when I have things figured out! Alternatively, yeah, I know, Phoenix isn't me, but Phoenix is a veteran lawyer who if anything should be better at this than me.

To be honest I ended up not really enjoy playing as Phoenix much during AA6's trial sequences (fortunately you end up doing this less than I expected). It's not a totally unique problem to AA6; the series does have a nasty habit of conflating "bringing up a legitimate possibility" with "bluffing". But it felt worse in AA6 to me, and I imagine that's partly because my expectations of post-trilogy Phoenix are higher.
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and I'm just over here like "hey Phoenix is pretty good in both of them"
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I think you need to replay AA5. Phoenix is at his bluffiest in AA5.
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transcience posted...

I think you need to replay AA5. Phoenix is at his bluffiest in AA5.

as someone who rewatched a lot of it recently I don't see it

but I think I'm with NeoElfboy that I don't even know what you guys or the game actually considers a bluff most of the time in DD or SoJ

like the only big bluff I can even think of in DD is 5-1 with Tonate but Phoenix actually had legit reasoning behind thinking Tonate was full of it

(then again it doesn't bother me when Phoenix bluffs anyway because I don't associate bluffing with incompetence)
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it's only in comparison with 4d chess AA4 Phoenix. AA5 treats him like he has some serious clout but the writing has him sweating and everyone talking about bluffing all the time. it's way more prevalent than in the OT.
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I definitely agree that I remember characters talking about Phoenix bluffing far more in AA5 and AA6 than in the original trilogy. It's honestly extremely weird; Phoenix's record in court cases is phenomenal, so if anything other characters should be overrating his ability as a lawyer (people remember results), but it felt like instead other characters underrate him instead! I'm not gonna complain tooo much only because video games are often guilty of having in-world characters praise the main far more than he deserves, so a game erring too far in the opposite direction is at worst a welcome break.

I do resent it when I feel like the player character is missing things I find obvious, though, unless the character is supposed to be a relative newcomer. I don't want to be told the solution to problems (this is something AA5 is definitely guilty of!), but I don't mind if the writing implies the player character has figured out the solution.
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transcience posted...

it's only in comparison with 4d chess AA4 Phoenix. AA5 treats him like he has some serious clout but the writing has him sweating and everyone talking about bluffing all the time. it's way more prevalent than in the OT.

Edgeworth, Manfred, Franziska, and Godot rag him for being incompetent and lucky in the OT all the time

just because they don't use the word "bluff" doesn't mean it wasn't happening on a regular basis

like I don't think Phoenix having a sweating animation means he doesn't know what he's doing anymore
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Up we go
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in 1/2/3, that just felt like the nature of the beast - you have to have your lawyer at a disadvantage, making unlikely claims at times

but AA5 made that into phoenix's defining character trait
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sneaky ninja leon
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SeabassDebeste posted...

in 1/2/3, that just felt like the nature of the beast - you have to have your lawyer at a disadvantage, making unlikely claims at times

but AA5 made that into phoenix's defining character trait

I don't even know what this means because you're still lawyering at a disadvantage in every game so that hasn't changed at all

it became Phoenix's defining character trait in the new series because it was his defining character trait in the OT

Phoenix makes wild claims in the OT. That's what he does. He figures it out on the fly sometimes. That's part of who he is. He can see possibilities that other people don't. They didn't call it "bluffing" in the OT, but when he does the same thing in the new games, they call it bluffing. That's the only difference. That sequence in 1-4 where he literally figures out how the murder happened one step at a time is a prime example of that ("The moment you run out of explanations is the moment you lose," and he never does), and it's awesome.

The end of 3-3 is probably the biggest bluff he ever makes because he's saying something he outright knows isn't true to capture Tigre, and everyone loves that moment.

Phoenix: Is it where a lawyer forcibly and blindly gets an acquittal through shouting and trickery?

Edgeworth: *sigh* Ironic that you of all people should say such a thing. Isn't that exactly how you have fought for your clients up until now?

believe it or not this conversation takes place in 2-4, not 5-5

like Phoenix has a reputation for winning through blind luck (although Edgeworth says "dumb luck" suits him better, but yeah) and not actual lawyering skill in the OT too
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the part in 5-6 where the judge expects Phoenix to cross-examine the orca on day 1 of the trial and then it actually happens on day 2 is very good
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although how about some more examples of Phoenix has a reputation for bluffing hardcore in the OT

Byrde: Yes! Bluffing to the max! Now, THIS is the Mr. Wright I know!

Phoenix: (Umm, this is bluff number...? We've done this so many times in this case I've lost count.)

Phoenix: (Argh! OK, time to add another bluff to the pile...)

Edgeworth: What the judge is saying, Wright, is don't try pulling one of your usual bluffs here.

Judge: You sure like to think you can bluff your way out of things, don't you?

that's just a few examples only from JFA

like I just don't get where this whole "Phoenix doesn't get ragged for bluffing in the OT like he does in the new games" stuff comes from because it's not true

now if you have problems with the fact that Phoenix still sweats because he didn't sweat in AJ or something weird that's a different story

I don't think people ever really get the impression that Edgeworth isn't in control at any point, but that dude gets flustered like nobody's business on a regular basis. Phoenix not knowing all the answers right away like he did in a case he had seven years to figure out doesn't mean he's suddenly less skilled.
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I think we're just going to go back and forth saying the same things, but it's not the fact that Phoenix is any different. it's that AA5 presents Phoenix as this legendary lawyer but then knocks him down about how he's out to make things up on the fly explicitly. that explicit part didn't happen as much in the OT, and the fact that they build him up like that but don't let him exist on that higher plane is a little disappointing, especially after AA4.

it's much better in AA6 when the deck is stacked against him, as opposed to regular old Gaspen Payne pushing him around left and right like he's Miles Edgeworth.
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transience posted...

it's much better in AA6 when the deck is stacked against him, as opposed to regular old Gaspen Payne pushing him around left and right like he's Miles Edgeworth.

Except I don't feel like this happens either. Gaspen is pretty incompetent like his brother. He pushes Athena around, sure, but that's it.

Like, I don't think Phoenix is just speaking without thinking. He might be speaking without the evidence yet, but for the instance of saying that the killer had to have leaped from the launch pad in mid-rotation, it's literally the only logical conclusion to draw if Athena isn't the killer. I think DD and SoJ do let him exist on a higher plane because those games have some pretty crazy twists, and he legitimately bests Edgeworth and overthrows some pretty solid theories he comes up with. You just want him to exist there as a perfect lawyer for some reason.
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oh I like OT Phoenix more than AA4 Phoenix. I just like AA4 Phoenix more than the neutering they've done to him in AA5 and 6. AA4 is all about doing what needs to be done to win -- basically the opposite of 2-4. it makes sense that Phoenix wouldn't beat Kristoph because Kristoph is straight up a better opponent than anything in AA5 or AA6.
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transience posted...

it's that AA5 presents Phoenix as this legendary lawyer but then knocks him down about how he's out to make things up on the fly explicitly. that explicit part didn't happen as much in the OT

And I don't think I agree with this either, but I don't really know what's the big deal if they just imply it more in the OT instead of saying it outright as much. Regardless, they have to find something to rag Phoenix about because they don't rip him for just being lucky and incompetent anymore. His skill actually is recognized in both games. Blackquill actually shows great respect and admiration for his ability to "bluff" and figure it out as he goes. He extends much more respect to Phoenix than he does to either Apollo or Athena. He's greatly respected in Khura'in by the end of SoJ, too.

transience posted...

I just like AA4 Phoenix more than the neutering they've done to him in AA5 and 6.

yeah we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this because I don't see it
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anyway
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not enough distinction being drawn between 5 and 6 here! 6 did feel more like phoenix was a master attorney imo
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I said "anyway" which means this conversation is over

get with the program
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that's how i know i'll get in the last word
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it's an invalid contribution since you didn't get the shot off in time
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So I've moved on to Spirit of Justice, just beat case 2

I think one of the main differences between the old trilogy and these new games is that in the old ones most (if not all) of the plot points were very neatly tied together and explained in almost excessive detail, whereas the new ones are much more fast and loose with the details. at the end of 6-2 I felt it was a little weird that they never confirmed the murder weapon and Mr Reus just kinda folded on the spot. Also, they kind of glossed over the whole contract thing without even a line about it being void because Retinz turned out to be a bad guy or whatever. Minor insignificant things, but I feel like the games used to be much more thorough about these details. Actually the more I've played these games the more I keep wanting remakes of the old ones done in the new engine.
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6-2 just isn't a particularly great case. case 3 is pretty strong though.
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6-2 definitely has the worst case heft:villain collapse ratio in the game. 6-4 might have a slightly more pathetic collapse, but it's in a lighter case.
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OT cases generally hold together on details much better than the newer games, and IMO this becomes obvious on replays. I'm not even one of those people who thinks the OT is an unreachable masterpiece (Dual Destinies is my second favourite game in the series) but this is one thing it just did better. Some of it may be that its cases were a bit simpler (crazy as that seems now, because "simple" they were not...), or that the newer games twist themselves into contortions in order to surprise even players who've played all the earlier games. I dunno.
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6-2 is kind of a mess, but it has some great pieces in it. Apollo and Trucy are great. That Trucy testimony is legitimately one of my favorites in the series. Athena's a really good assistant, and Ema is, too.

also I actually liked Reus quite a bit

but yeah I'm still not sure how the murder actually worked
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Reus's theme is super good too
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Agreed. I put Reus on my Ace Attorney Top 100 music list!

LeonhartFour posted...

but yeah I'm still not sure how the murder actually worked

It's been a while, but Reus had planned the fake murder and stuff with the other magicians, but secretly set up for the fake Reus to be killed where nobody can see. He caused some backgrounds and props to fall and cover up the scene. The fake Reus is already attached to the wire of the winch (not sure how). Mr. Reus then uses a remote control to release the winding of the winch, thrusting Mr. Reus in the air right into a blade, pointed downward, that was planted in advance.

Something like that. I probably missed something critical. The murder method was my favorite thing in 6-2.
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Maybe, who knows.
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I don't know why, but Phoenix's "perfect weather for skydiving, I'd say!" cracked me the hell up
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also I object to the penalty that I received for presenting the newspaper to prove who beard guy is, the prison break news story is right there
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overruled
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ending of that trial doe
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Finished case 3 and got started on 4. Will post thoughts tomorrow.
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heck yeah 6-3
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