Board 8 > Star Wars: The Last Jedi: Spoiler Thread Episode III

(+) Yeah! (+)

Yeah, that's the part that I probably disliked the most, even if it was just a brief moment of temptation that immediately passed. It does help sell Luke feeling like it was his fault though.
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It's been like 30 years since ROTJ and he was clearly scarred by the end of Jedi anyway. What matters in that scene isn't that he considered it, what matters is that he didn't do it. If he'd actually gone through with an attempt on Ben's life that would be inexcusable but the fact that he didn't is pivotal. He was always kind of impulsive, even in ROTJ, and sensing a return of something so sinister, so murderous, is enough to compel him into that line of thinking... until it isn't.
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the craziest parts in retrospect are Luke "won't even kill the emperor" Skywalker seriously considering cutting Ben in half

and advanced master Luke needing Yoda to understand the most basic jedi lesson of "you have to work through failure". i guess he really was supposed to be a bad teacher

i guess all of this could just be explained by crazy depression or whatever but it's sad to see a main character fall to that without any real reason or explanation
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banananor posted...

the craziest parts in retrospect are Luke "won't even kill the emperor" Skywalker seriously considering cutting Ben in half

I mean he very nearly does in a moment of anger until Vader steps between them
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especially because he claims he knew about snoke *before* his school collapsed

it just seems like he'd rather have taken it upon himself to seek out and defeat snoke on his own
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Like, the thing about all the stuff at the end of RotJ is that it shows that Luke DOES have darkness in him. He goes crazy when Vader talks about turning Leia to the Dark Side and comes within a moment of killing him until he catches himself. He's just always been able to suppress it before it goes too far.
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LeonhartFour posted...

banananor posted...

the craziest parts in retrospect are Luke "won't even kill the emperor" Skywalker seriously considering cutting Ben in half

I mean he very nearly does in a moment of anger until Vader steps between them

very true. but in that moment there were a lot of good reasons to kill him- that's why it's so impressive!

still not 100% sure how killing the emperor is not okay while slaughtering redsuit mooks or clone troopers is

i guess because he wasn't holding a weapon? yeah, it's a moot point
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I would guess it ultimately boils down to motive since Light or Dark is generally about your emotions and stuff.
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i suppose the only really weird part is that luke never went after snoke, and instead took it out on his students
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There's a difference between a fleeting moment of anger and like, pre-meditation when the dude is asleep

Like Luke can claim he only considered it for a moment, but you don't have 'just a moment' where you consider killing someone in their sleep-- that's something you dwell on for a while, then have second thoughts when it actually comes time to do it. It's a disservice to Luke's character because he got even that far. Like if the plot had been "he thought about it very briefly once while training him but said "no that's wrong", and Kylo Ren sensed his murderous thoughts and tried to murder Luke in his sleep that night" it would've been a lot less dumb I think.
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I'll take your word for it because I've never seriously considered killing another human being so I don't know how that works

although I can believe that the moment did just come and go with Luke because he doesn't realize how far gone Kylo is until he goes to see him that night and senses how deep the darkness is, and then he panicked
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I don't get why people need Luke to be such a perfect goody goody even years later. That's the kind of saccharin 70s crap the movie is fighting. It's like being mad that Aang was a shitty father in Korra, even though it makes sense and made for such a better character.

If you're really desperate you can consider the implication that Leia wanted Luke to "take care of her son" in the sense that he would not allow him to turn to the dark side, even if that meant killing him.
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I mean you don't have to have considered killing anyone to know that it was more than a brief fleeting moment needed to line all those ducks in a row.

Consider the scenario the movie presents to you: He's in Kylo's room at night, draws his Lightsaber and is about to strike when Kylo wakes up.
- Why was he in Kylo's room at that time of night
- Why did he have a Lightsaber on him

Consider Luke's typical night time routine and he probably isn't doing patrols with his Lightsaber. Consider also that sensing Kylo's darkness is probably going to come at a time while he's training him like it did with Rey

So Luke was basically thinking about this for part of a day minimum with any reasonable interpretation-- that's more than a fleeting thought. Even with an unreasonable interpretation of thinking it just came to him while he was in his room reading a book while Kylo slept and was emanating zs of darkness, that's still a few minutes where he's thinking about ways to deal with these zs of darkness and he comes to the conclusion that killing him is the best option when... that doesn't line up with his past mindset at all.
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Lopen posted...

I mean you don't have to have considered killing anyone to know that it was more than a brief fleeting moment needed to line all those ducks in a row.

Consider the scenario the movie presents to you: He's in Kylo's room at night, draws his Lightsaber and is about to strike when Kylo wakes up.
- Why was he in Kylo's room at that time of night
- Why did he have a Lightsaber on him

Consider Luke's typical night time routine and he probably isn't doing patrols with his Lightsaber. Consider also that sensing Kylo's darkness is probably going to come at a time while he's training him like it did with Rey

So Luke was basically thinking about this for part of a day minimum with any reasonable interpretation-- that's more than a fleeting thought. Even with an unreasonable interpretation of thinking it just came to him while he was in his room reading a book while Kylo slept and was emanating zs of darkness, that's still a few minutes where he's thinking about ways to deal with these zs of darkness and he comes to the conclusion that killing him is the best option when... that doesn't line up with his past mindset at all.

What if Luke stands over his favorite disciple and stares at them while they sleep ala Paranormal activity and uses his lightsaber as a nightlight so he can see in the dark.
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Lopen posted...

Consider the scenario the movie presents to you: He's in Kylo's room at night, draws his Lightsaber and is about to strike when Kylo wakes up.
- Why was he in Kylo's room at that time of night
- Why did he have a Lightsaber on him

He outright says he went to confront him. Perhaps he had his lightsaber with him in the event that Kylo Ren turned violent (which was probably pretty likely), and then he thought maybe he could deal with this another way and bam.

(also only Kylo believes he's about to strike, which is a fair assumption to make in his position, but Luke says he just turned it on and never actually raised it to strike him)
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It is odd that Luke can sense good in and try to turn back someone as far gone as Vader, but so quickly consider Kylo a lost cause.
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Well, even Leia gave up on him after he killed Han, although Luke tells her no one's ever truly gone, which might be a callback to Vader in addition to Han, but he doesn't actually seem interested in turning him back regardless of whether he thinks it's possible or not.
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Dude was asleep-- if you just want to confront him wait till morning. Or at least, you can safely keep your Lightsaber undrawn while saying "hey dude wake up I need to talk to you"

Luke's story straight up doesn't wash with me. He's either lying or more likely the plot is just poorly thought out and kinda forced there.
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Lopen posted...

Dude was asleep-- if you just want to confront him wait till morning. Or at least, you can safely keep your Lightsaber undrawn while saying "hey dude wake up I need to talk to you"

I mean he probably did plan to keep the lightsaber undrawn until he needed it

I don't really think "Luke should've just let him sleep and talk to him in the morning" is a great reason to discredit his story regardless. Perhaps he wanted to take a chance to look into his heart and see what was there while Kylo wouldn't perceive what he was doing, and it turned out to be even worse than he thought.
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Yeah, I was under the impression that he sensed darkness in him, went to check on this when Kylo was asleep, went "oh fuck it's even worse than I thought" and instinctively grabbed his lightsaber before really reflecting on it.

Makes sense if he really hasn't seen anything like that in years.
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also perhaps Luke wanted to do it at night so none of the other students would know what was going on
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I dunno, man. Not really to me-- just doesn't really profile as the kinda thing to create that "crime of passion" reaction given how Jedi have historically reacted to "sensing darkness" in the series but agree to disagree I guess
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Leia was supposed to turn Kylo back to the light in IX it is pretty clear. But, her dying obviously curved that hard.
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Maybe in Ep IX Leia was planned to sneak into Kylo's bedroom at night with a lightsaber saying "It's time to finish what Luke started!"
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Lopen posted...

I dunno, man. Not really to me-- just doesn't really profile as the kinda thing to create that "crime of passion" reaction given how Jedi have historically reacted to "sensing darkness" in the series but agree to disagree I guess

I mean, he literally hasn't had to deal with this for years and is the last Jedi who also didn't receive the full training a Jedi normally would.

He's been unpracticed against the dark side for all this time, and he see darkness in Kylo that scares him...so for just a second he reverts to that Luke that cut off the fake Vader's head in Dagobah.

He realizes his mistake because of his training, but it's too late.
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Grand Kirby posted...

Maybe in Ep IX Leia was planned to sneak into Kylo's bedroom at night with a lightsaber saying "It's time to finish what Luke started!"

She doesn't have a lightsaber duhhh. Neither does Rey I think now.
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Grand Kirby posted...

Maybe in Ep IX Leia was planned to sneak into Kylo's bedroom at night with a lightsaber saying "It's time to finish what Luke started!"

that would've been the best

she would tell him to put a shirt on before she kills him too
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Lopen posted...

Dude was asleep-- if you just want to confront him wait till morning

"hm he's got incredible darkness in him that will destroy us all... welp, let me put this off till morning!"

This argument is 100% braindead and you're just listening to the words coming out of your own mouth at this point
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Anyone here wanna argue why the earth isn't flat while we're at it?
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foolm0r0n posted...

Lopen posted...

Dude was asleep-- if you just want to confront him wait till morning

"hm he's got incredible darkness in him that will destroy us all... welp, let me put this off till morning!"

This argument is 100% braindead and you're just listening to the words coming out of your own mouth at this point

Dam. Foolmo just called Luke a bitch ass pussy.
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I guess Kylo Ren just got universe destroying darkness the day Luke realized it, literally out of nowhere. Makes sense!
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Lopen posted...

I guess Kylo Ren just got universe destroying darkness the day Luke realized it, literally out of nowhere. Makes sense!

What. Dude, he said that he had sensed it during training. He saw it building up inside him.

Then he goes for a more thorough look while he's asleep and can't keep his thoughts hidden and sees the full extent of it.

I feel like you're being deliberately obtuse here.
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I'm replying to foolmo who is implying that it would destroy the universe to confront the guy when he's actually awake
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better to catch him when he's not fully alert imhotbqh
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If Luke is scared to confront Kylo, then something is off.
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I mean you guys created the "he's going in to scan him when his guard is down" narrative for the record. If you need to unpack (the kind word-- create could also be used if you're less generous) that much of the storytelling that's probably a sign it's not really written very well.
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Lopen posted...

I mean you guys created the "he's going in to scan him when his guard is down" narrative for the record. If you need to unpack that much of the storytelling that's probably a sign it's not really written very well.

I mean what really happened is deliberately left kind of vague because they're told from differing perspectives and Luke purposely omits important details the first time

so the story being left to your interpretation is fine in that situation

like if you want to believe Luke is lying about how long he thought about it that's actually fine

I just don't agree
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On general principle, the story being left to your interpretation is fine

If we're trying to rationalize a character doing something that is literally the opposite of his established character from Return of the Jedi, however, it's much less fine
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Lopen posted...

I guess Kylo Ren just got universe destroying darkness the day Luke realized it, literally out of nowhere. Makes sense!

It built up over time but that night he did "out of nowhere" realize how far and out of control it was. That's what he said. That's why he was so afraid of Rey's minor darkness, because he saw with Kylo how quickly it went from a spark to a raging fire (and also that the raging fire was his fault).
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Lopen posted...

I mean you guys created the "he's going in to scan him when his guard is down" narrative for the record. If you need to unpack (the kind word-- create could also be used if you're less generous) that much of the storytelling that's probably a sign it's not really written very well.

Just because everyone ITT is terrible at arguing an easy point with direct support in the movie doesn't mean you're right
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I wanna know how Kylo knocked out Luke in that scenario and not himself. (And decided not to kill him)
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okay but you're making an argument that's even further from his established character by turning him into a premeditated attempted murderer
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Well, Luke is Anakin's son. It's probably not the first time he tried to kill children.
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Grand Kirby posted...

Well, Luke is Anakin's son. It's probably not the first time he tried to kill children.

excuse me I think you mean "younglings"
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I'm making the argument that the story wasn't thought out at all there and as presented at face value (his original story, Kylo's story, and his reaction to Kylo's take on the story when Rey presses him) it's easier to take him as a premeditated attempted murderer. The only reason you guys are assuming otherwise is because one course of action that requires a lot more creative liberties to reach is less out of character but WHO KNOWS MAN IT'S BEEN 30 YEARS HE DIDN'T GET ALL THE TRAINING.

Like I'm just saying if you're making Luke act that far out of character, you'd better justify it damn well. It wasn't. Because you can fanfic a reason that is a bit more justified than the face value doesn't make it good writing.
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Man, I'm not trying to justify the scene's existence or say it was a masterpiece of good writing. You're the only one trying to argue from that premise. I've already said I didn't like it. I just think you can come up with explanations that aren't "eh Luke's just lying." Like, this isn't necessarily Occam's Razor where the simplest explanation is most likely correct. Do you have to take some creative liberties? Sure, but I also don't think that's a horrific thing like you seem to.
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My argument was never Luke's lying

My argument is that we're thinking about it way more than the writers did, because they don't really understand Luke Skywalker or Star Wars all that well.
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what if the Luke who went to confront Ben was just a clone created by Snoke to make him think Luke was trying to kill him to cement his heel turn
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Lopen posted...

My argument was never Luke's lying

My argument is that we're thinking about it way more than the writers did, because they don't really understand Luke Skywalker or Star Wars all that well.

Your argument is based on the idea that we should see the exact same character we saw many years ago with no change.

So 30 years from now, I fully expect you to be advocating for spy clones to fix plot points.
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Well it'd be less out of character for Luke at least
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