Board 8 > Star Wars: The Last Jedi: Spoiler Thread Episode III

(+) Yeah! (+)

Saw it last night. Liked it SO MUCH BETTER than TFA. I thought it was visually superior, but also Rey seemed like she got a nerf, which made the film a ton better.

They teased the one plot point I wanted THE ABSOLUTE MOST. Even though they didn't do it in the end, I loved that they at least acknowledged it and it was on the board as a possibility. My god though, if Rey/Ren had joined forces and had to be stopped by Luke (the Last Jedi), it would've been the greatest of all time. I understand it's Disney and we have to play everything safe now, but hey at least they acknowledged it.

One thing I'm real disappointed about was that I thought we were gonna get some EU god tier Luke strength. I was waiting for him to tank the shots from all those Walkers and then knock them all over with the wave of a hand. Thought it would've been incredibly badass.

But again I understand why they couldn't, because then he would've had to kill Kylo Ren, who has been by far the best part of these two new films.
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I've been thinking about this movie since I saw it. I still don't really like it that much, but I'm hopeful that they'll go in an interesting direction with the third movie. I'm hoping they might do something like Kylo Ren tries to be a benevolent emperor instead of another evil dictator, making the situation for the Rebellion more complex than "we must obviously try to overthrow the bad guy."
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saw it again tonight with my 10 year old. still pretty good. there's about an hour long stretch that's definitely not as good on a rewatch -- basically, the Finn/Rose stuff -- but once Rey gets to Kylo, everything from that point on is great.

my daughter's first comment was how she didn't like Kylo without a shirt on, and her favourite part was Luke brushing his shoulders off after the guns. take that as you will, I guess.
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I mean that might be my favorite part too so your daughter has good taste
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An ExTha topic might be a good place to bring this up.

A female co-worker was telling me that she thought the movie had a very feminist message because Po was basically punished for manspalining so much. That Admiral Pinkhair's plan to escape via the transports totally would have worked, and that it only failed because Benecio Del Toro ratted it out to the First Order, and he was only there because Finn and Rose needed him to break them out of jail, and they were only in jail because Po told them the Admiral had no plan and it was hopeless. If he would have just shut up and done what his ladyboss told him to do, all of that mess could have been prevented.
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yep, but uh there's more to those characters than just being boys and girls
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SmartMuffin posted...

An ExTha topic might be a good place to bring this up.

A female co-worker was telling me that she thought the movie had a very feminist message because Po was basically punished for manspalining so much. That Admiral Pinkhair's plan to escape via the transports totally would have worked, and that it only failed because Benecio Del Toro ratted it out to the First Order, and he was only there because Finn and Rose needed him to break them out of jail, and they were only in jail because Po told them the Admiral had no plan and it was hopeless. If he would have just shut up and done what his ladyboss told him to do, all of that mess could have been prevented.

Actually that scene is better summed up by

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I didn't care about Kylo in the first movie, but I'm a solid fan of Kylo Ren: The Universe's Butt Monkey. He's what would have happened if instead of Anakin being super special awesome at everything, he was just kind of okay at everything yet still had the same expectations shoved upon him
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If Ladyboss had actually told her CAPTAIN what her plan was, he probably wouldn't have sent Finn/Rose on misguided Codebreaker mission.

BTW who else was hoping for the Codebreaker to be Chris Jericho, who arrives and puts Snoke in the Walls of Jericho?

"I AM THE BEST IN THE GALAXY AT WHAT I DO"
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You know what my main problem is with these new films though, they didn't really take time to develop the conflict.

There's just a First Order (Empire) and a Rebellion. No explanation of why, it just is. That doesn't really raise the stakes for me. How did Snoke and co. build this First Order after the Empire was exposed as murderous overlords? Why did people go for that again?

The whole universe doesn't have enough backstory going for me and because of that I just don't care as much.
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It was Holdo's fault that she didn't handle Poe properly and caused him to screw everything up. Whether that's feminist or not I dunno, but anti-sjws will never pass up an opportunity to boil in rage over something insignificant.
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ExThaNemesis posted...

You know what my main problem is with these new films though, they didn't really take time to develop the conflict.

There's just a First Order (Empire) and a Rebellion. No explanation of why, it just is. That doesn't really raise the stakes for me. How did Snoke and co. build this First Order after the Empire was exposed as murderous overlords? Why did people go for that again?

The whole universe doesn't have enough backstory going for me and because of that I just don't care as much.

Well, I mean, this is not initially correct.

Initially there was a Republic who had control of the Galaxy. A First Order Empire who supposedly was playing nice. And you had a Resistance who thought the Republic was being dumb and not understanding the real threat of the First Order.

The First Order Starkilled the entire Republic military projection in one fell swoop. Leaving just the Resistance which is likely just undermanned because the Republic and not the First Order was in control from the start anyways.
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foolm0r0n posted...

It was Holdo's fault that she didn't handle Poe properly and caused him to screw everything up. Whether that's feminist or not I dunno, but anti-sjws will never pass up an opportunity to boil in rage over something insignificant.

I mean I know you're being sarcastic but it's kinda true, part of the job of a military officer is to command the respect and loyalty of your troops - if they disobey you, it's a black mark on you as well as them.

That said, disobeying an order that directly causes dozens (hundreds) of deaths would get you executed in any real military, so....
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ExThaNemesis posted...

They teased the one plot point I wanted THE ABSOLUTE MOST. Even though they didn't do it in the end, I loved that they at least acknowledged it and it was on the board as a possibility. My god though, if Rey/Ren had joined forces and had to be stopped by Luke (the Last Jedi), it would've been the greatest of all time. I understand it's Disney and we have to play everything safe now, but hey at least they acknowledged it.

I was hoping for this too. The True Neutral. What kind of was odd to me was that after that whole thing about Kylo wanting to do that, he then goes back and takes over Snoke and is just back to the side of the First Order anyway, seemingly with no regret. Like he just chokes the fuck out of Hux when he happens on the scene and then.... was there a scene missing?

Anyway thats a minor gripe. I loved it too for being different. BUT my main issue was the comic relief. It just felt so forced so often and was usually kind of awkward. Like sometimes it was okay and blended into the scene nicely. But when they jumped from Rey and Ren having their first telepathic moment and its all intense, and I forget specifically what came next but it jumped into the next scene which opened with some kind of goof. So many of the better and more tense moments were immediately lightened by the humor. I guess I didn't have an issue with humor itself so much, just the placement and timing of it.

That's really it though. Everything else was great.
I do like TFA more though. My favorite 3 scenes from the two movies are:
1. Rey discovering her force powers for the first time when she's strapped down in TFA
2. Finn and then Rey vs Kylo at the end of TFA
3. Rey when she's tempted by the dark portaly thing and goes in there and is fascinated by the mirror.

HM: Luke retconning mitichlorians when he explains the force (that scene also is a great example of the good humor, DO YOU FEEL IT???)
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The First Order Starkilled the entire Republic military projection in one fell swoop

The Republic had its entire military in one place? While not engaging in a battle or anything like that? That's pretty dumb.
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HM: Luke retconning mitichlorians when he explains the force (that scene also is a great example of the good humor, DO YOU FEEL IT???)

I don't think that's a retcon. Luke legit doesn't know about them. All of his force knowledge comes from Obi-Wan and Yoda and they never mentioned it to him.
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SmartMuffin posted...

The First Order Starkilled the entire Republic military projection in one fell swoop

The Republic had its entire military in one place? While not engaging in a battle or anything like that? That's pretty dumb.

That is supposedly what happened. I mean, the killed an entire system. Not just one place. But, yeah... The Republic was decimated. I think I read that they quickly spread out and took over the Galaxy afterwards which probably means they picked off the remnants off screen after the main bulk was destroyed in that attack.
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SmartMuffin posted...

I mean I know you're being sarcastic

I guess you've gotten good at "knowing" false things
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WiggumFan267 posted...

What kind of was odd to me was that after that whole thing about Kylo wanting to do that, he then goes back and takes over Snoke and is just back to the side of the First Order anyway, seemingly with no regret.

He was never going to go neutral, he was just going against Snoke and Vader's legacy and such. He always was gonna be evil, and he tried to turn Rey evil.

And now the First Order is his. It might not even be called the First Order anymore.
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I mean he has no reason to try and maintain whatever the hell Snoke was going for with the Order (it was literally just a retread of the Empire sprung up by guys who really missed the Empire after it died). All Kylo wants to do at this point is kill every last thing that might suggest the Force telling him what to do. I guess he could use the Order's troops for that
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foolm0r0n posted...

It was Holdo's fault that she didn't handle Poe properly and caused him to screw everything up. Whether that's feminist or not I dunno, but anti-sjws will never pass up an opportunity to boil in rage over something insignificant.

what the hell are you even on about here?
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I am distinctly not a member of the Kylo Ren fan club. I thought he was terrible in the first movie, and that I could have played the part better than Adam Driver did. (And that's saying a bit, because I am a suck-tier actor.) He was improved in this go-around, but just at the moment when we thought we were going to get something interesting and different, nope, it's just usual Sith bull with the apprentice betraying the master.
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I was huge on Kylo after the first film and he was generally better in this one (I did sorta miss the mask but I got the symbolism of it being destroyed at the very beginning).

I think honest trailers put it best: he's Good Anakin.
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Except it isn't? Sith usually want to go for power grabs. Kylo gives the impression that he just wants to burn everything prophecy-related to the ground
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foolm0r0n posted...

And now the First Order is his. It might not even be called the First Order anymore.

If episode IX opens with the Knights of Ren wiping out the First Order once and for all, and we're truly done with "SUPER FIREPOWER EMPEROR OVERWHELMS SMALL REBEL ALLIANCE SAVE A MIRACLE" that's been the core mechanic of 6 Star Wars movies, I will be super happy.
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THEDavyJones posted...

If episode IX opens with the Knights of Ren wiping out the First Order once and for all, and we're truly done with "SUPER FIREPOWER EMPEROR OVERWHELMS SMALL REBEL ALLIANCE SAVE A MIRACLE" that's been the core mechanic of 6 Star Wars movies, I will be super happy.

That would be awesome.

Something that I overlooked is that Luke says when Ben flipped out and left the temple in ruins, he left with six other Jedi apprentices. Where are they now?

Have they joined the dark side and developed their powers, and now that Ren is in power, will they join his side?
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DeathChicken posted...

Kylo gives the impression that he just wants to burn everything prophecy-related to the ground

In general, Kylo doesn't want anything about his past to dictate his future. It's not just the concept of prophecy and destiny, it's the whole weight of his lineage that's bearing down on him. His grandfather is Darth Vader, but he immediately destroys his helmet that was his proxy to him. His uncle is Luke Skywalker and he literally orders every single blaster his army still has to destroy him. He doesn't even care to destroy Luke personally, he just wants him dead that badly. And of course his murdering of Han in TFA.
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ExThaNemesis posted...

THEDavyJones posted...

If episode IX opens with the Knights of Ren wiping out the First Order once and for all, and we're truly done with "SUPER FIREPOWER EMPEROR OVERWHELMS SMALL REBEL ALLIANCE SAVE A MIRACLE" that's been the core mechanic of 6 Star Wars movies, I will be super happy.

That would be awesome.

Something that I overlooked is that Luke says when Ben flipped out and left the temple in ruins, he left with six other Jedi apprentices. Where are they now?

Have they joined the dark side and developed their powers, and now that Ren is in power, will they join his side?

The implication was always that these were the Knights of Ren, if I recall we see their silhouettes in TFA.

A restored Jedi order vs. the Knights of Ren would be a really great finale to this series. Much better than "How can the Resistance/Rebellion over come the First Order/Empire THIS time?"
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Kylo Ren is my boy and I just want him to be happy
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Kylo Ren is my boy and I just want him to be happy

He can't.

There is no redemption for him, and they will not end the series on the dour note of him winning.

He's got a fall coming for him.
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Kylo Ren is my boy and I just want him to be happy

I don't. I want a truly self-destructive character who doesn't seek nor is given redemption for the arc. I honestly think Kylo is slowly going insane, and you can see how deranged he was becoming after the death of Snoke.

This is how you build up to an ultimate villain of the series. How the Skywalker lineage has somehow managed to produce an even worse prodigy than fucking Anakin Skywalker. You know, the man who brought ruin to the Republic (and would never fully recover even after the Empire's defeat), helped wipe out most of the Jedi order, and only did anything for the light side of the force when his son was being killed.

And remember that Kylo will have no biological attachments by Episode IX. No father. No mother (unless they don't bother to write a death for Leia and just have her character written out another way). No Uncle. Nothing.
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THEDavyJones posted...

ExThaNemesis posted...

THEDavyJones posted...

If episode IX opens with the Knights of Ren wiping out the First Order once and for all, and we're truly done with "SUPER FIREPOWER EMPEROR OVERWHELMS SMALL REBEL ALLIANCE SAVE A MIRACLE" that's been the core mechanic of 6 Star Wars movies, I will be super happy.

That would be awesome.

Something that I overlooked is that Luke says when Ben flipped out and left the temple in ruins, he left with six other Jedi apprentices. Where are they now?

Have they joined the dark side and developed their powers, and now that Ren is in power, will they join his side?

The implication was always that these were the Knights of Ren, if I recall we see their silhouettes in TFA.

A restored Jedi order vs. the Knights of Ren would be a really great finale to this series. Much better than "How can the Resistance/Rebellion over come the First Order/Empire THIS time?"

Rian seems to have retconned the knights of Ren.

The vision and what was shown in VIII do not line up.
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ExThaNemesis posted...

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Kylo Ren is my boy and I just want him to be happy

He can't.

There is no redemption for him, and they will not end the series on the dour note of him winning.

He's got a fall coming for him.

I mean, he can be happy when he's dead. That's fine too.
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I think this is the first time Rock and I have so completely agreed about something.
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Kylo Ren is like a Final Fantasy villain
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transience posted...

Kylo Ren is like a Final Fantasy villain

https://i.neoseeker.com/u/f/31/00004.jpg

No wonder I like him so much.
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yeah that's exactly where I was going
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Actually, I think I still want to see a legitimate Kylo Ren face turn, if only because I'm really curious to see if Hux could potentially develop into a credible threat.

Don't get me wrong, I love him as a sniveling sycophant, but the scene where he's about to kill Kylo makes me wonder if he also has potential.
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nah, Hux is the latest in a long line of empire bureaucrats. he's likable though and is lasting longer than the guys that Vader would eliminate every hour or so.
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Yo this movie was garbage SPOILERS

- absolutely no development/backstory for Snoke
- no development for Finn, either as a solitary character or as a foil to Rey or Poe.
- Phasma was completely worthless AGAIN.
- Haldo was portrayed as an antagonist for no reason, kept her plan a secret for no reason
- entire casino planet section was completely pointless and a tonal shift for the entire series
- Luke, a master Jedi who has faced the Dark Side of the Force on numerous occasions, thinks about killing his nephew while he sleeps? This is out of character. Hamill was totally right when he said he knew Luke better than the writers of this film.
- Anti-reveal of Rey's backstory. So the fact that there's nothing special about her just makes the fact that she's good at everything naturally even more suspect.
- Still no explanation for the First Order's rise to power, why the Republic failed, etc.

Hux is the first of the imperial officer types I've actually given a damn about since Tarkin (who is an underrated villain tbh). I dunno if he can credibly be built up into that major an adversary now though, after playing the buttmonkey for so much of TLJ. Did like the scene where he was considering killing Kylo Ren though (as well as the antagonism those two had competing for Snoke's favour in TFA and the first half of TLJ).
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Hux needs an underling to kick around to be on Tarkin's level.

why do people keep talking about Phasma as if she mattered at all? even the movie doesn't make her out to be anything more than a foil for Finn.
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Phasma is basically the Boba Fett of the sequel trilogy. Doesn't do fucking ANYTHING but has a rad design and is cool as hell, so everyone loves them.

Boba Fett managed to survive his "death" in the old EU. I'm expecting Phasma to get the same treatment one day.
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Want to be clear that I didn't think it was a GREAT movie or anything, just that it was a massive step up from TFA.

Thought this one was especially visually stunning. The lightsaber fight, and the explosion of the First Order megaship with the ensuing fights was just awesome to watch.
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Phasma provides an opening for ANY sort of development for Finn, who I generally enjoy.

Deepening Phasma would in turn deepen Finn, by perhaps answering questions like, "Who is Finn?" and "Why was he able to break through the First Order brainwashing?"

Instead, Finn beats Phasma in a fairly meaningless battle

for the record, I also think the film was better than TFA, by virtue of it not being a complete rehash

transience posted...

why do people keep talking about Phasma as if she mattered at all? even the movie doesn't make her out to be anything more than a foil for Finn.

I think there were some rumors around the time of Episode 7's release that she was supposed to have a larger role in Episode 8. In the end she got yet another nothing role.
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After all the complaints about her lack of screen time in the first movie, the fact that she was brushed aside so quickly in this one was a complete troll move.
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ExThaNemesis posted...

You know what my main problem is with these new films though, they didn't really take time to develop the conflict.

There's just a First Order (Empire) and a Rebellion. No explanation of why, it just is. That doesn't really raise the stakes for me. How did Snoke and co. build this First Order after the Empire was exposed as murderous overlords? Why did people go for that again?

The whole universe doesn't have enough backstory going for me and because of that I just don't care as much.

Why is there an Empire in episode 4? Where did it come from? Who built it? Man this lack of backstory is just completely killing the movie for me.
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Not_an_Owl posted...

ExThaNemesis posted...

You know what my main problem is with these new films though, they didn't really take time to develop the conflict.

There's just a First Order (Empire) and a Rebellion. No explanation of why, it just is. That doesn't really raise the stakes for me. How did Snoke and co. build this First Order after the Empire was exposed as murderous overlords? Why did people go for that again?

The whole universe doesn't have enough backstory going for me and because of that I just don't care as much.

Why is there an Empire in episode 4? Where did it come from? Who built it? Man this lack of backstory is just completely killing the movie for me.

This is such a dumb rebuttal I'm tired of seeing. There's a huge difference between the two scenarios. This new trilogy is following a mere 30 years after the end of Ep. VI. There's preestablished content that literally everyone knows about now. A New Hope was the very first of the series and people literally knew nothing whatsoever about anything. Not to mention the IRL time difference and how movies have changed and the way the stories and plots are handled.
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Not_an_Owl posted...

ExThaNemesis posted...

You know what my main problem is with these new films though, they didn't really take time to develop the conflict.

There's just a First Order (Empire) and a Rebellion. No explanation of why, it just is. That doesn't really raise the stakes for me. How did Snoke and co. build this First Order after the Empire was exposed as murderous overlords? Why did people go for that again?

The whole universe doesn't have enough backstory going for me and because of that I just don't care as much.

Why is there an Empire in episode 4? Where did it come from? Who built it? Man this lack of backstory is just completely killing the movie for me.

There's a huge fucking difference between starting a story with the background not detailed and continuing a story with explaining what happened in between.
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