Current Events > ok so why did you not like The Last Jedi SPOILERS

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s0nicfan posted...

Ammonitida posted...

It turns out, the admiral had the perfect plan and Poe didn't learn from him mistake, and cost more lives to be lost. A trope subverted.

That's utter bullshit. Poe didn't KNOW he was making a mistake, because he had all the information available to him when he kicked off that sidequest. At the time, his options were "wait until we run out of fuel" or "find a way to escape". The admiral was a shitty character with a shitty attitude and I can not for the life of me understand why a single person is defending the way she treated everyone else.

Your complaints are bullshit. You still don't get it.

Yeah I really didn't like how Poe caused a fucking mutiny and the only thing that happens to him is "Gosh, I like that fella."

Literally everybody got it. It wasn't that subtle.
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Ammonitida posted...

s0nicfan posted...

Ammonitida posted...

It turns out, the admiral had the perfect plan and Poe didn't learn from him mistake, and cost more lives to be lost. A trope subverted.

That's utter bullshit. Poe didn't KNOW he was making a mistake, because he had all the information available to him when he kicked off that sidequest. At the time, his options were "wait until we run out of fuel" or "find a way to escape". The admiral was a shitty character with a shitty attitude and I can not for the life of me understand why a single person is defending the way she treated everyone else.

Your complaints are bullshit. You still don't get it.

Holdo was a shitty character with a shitty attitude that openly enjoyed looking down on characters everyone else saw as a hero, and went out of her way to hide information she didn't need to hide. She didn't even need to SAY her plan... saying "I have a plan. Leia trusts me, please trust me too" would have been enough.
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littlebro07 posted...

The Admiral posted...

OctilIery posted...

The Admiral posted...

Girl power > decades of training with a Jedi master

An entire lifetime spent defending yourself with a staff > a lifetime where your last several years have been spent in isolation with no training.

I'm referring to Kylo. He was trained until his teen years by Luke, then by Snoke. Yet a girl who just discovered the force two weeks ago is his equal.

I wouldn't really say "equal"

Maybe mentally, because of Snoke's influence...but physically? She was gonna get wrecked against Snoke's guards without Kylo there.

the same could be said about Kylo
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s0nicfan posted...

Ammonitida posted...

s0nicfan posted...

Ammonitida posted...

It turns out, the admiral had the perfect plan and Poe didn't learn from him mistake, and cost more lives to be lost. A trope subverted.

That's utter bullshit. Poe didn't KNOW he was making a mistake, because he had all the information available to him when he kicked off that sidequest. At the time, his options were "wait until we run out of fuel" or "find a way to escape". The admiral was a shitty character with a shitty attitude and I can not for the life of me understand why a single person is defending the way she treated everyone else.

Your complaints are bullshit. You still don't get it.

Holdo was a shitty character with a shitty attitude that openly enjoyed looking down on characters everyone else saw as a hero, and went out of her way to hide information she didn't need to hide. She didn't even need to SAY her plan... saying "I have a plan. Leia trusts me, please trust me too" would have been enough.

Agreed. But if she had done that, many of the plotlines in the movie wouldn't have occurred.

This should be a lesson in screen writing 101. If the only way you can advance the plot is to have characters act intentionally stupid or withhold information from each other for no defensible reason, your writing is shitty. Go back to drawing board and find more creative and organic ways to advance the narrative.
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boxington posted...

littlebro07 posted...

The Admiral posted...

OctilIery posted...

The Admiral posted...

Girl power > decades of training with a Jedi master

An entire lifetime spent defending yourself with a staff > a lifetime where your last several years have been spent in isolation with no training.

I'm referring to Kylo. He was trained until his teen years by Luke, then by Snoke. Yet a girl who just discovered the force two weeks ago is his equal.

I wouldn't really say "equal"

Maybe mentally, because of Snoke's influence...but physically? She was gonna get wrecked against Snoke's guards without Kylo there.

the same could be said about Kylo

True, they both needed each other there to succeed, but Kylo looked like he easily would have lasted a bit longer if he were...solo.
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yeah the biggest problem is half the plot happens because Holdo doest share her plan with one of her main fighters... which doesn't make any sense.

Ya know what might have worked? If Purple Hair said "Hey Poe, calm down and trust me. I have a plan. Leia would want you to trust me." Instead she threw some shade at him and told him to get off the bridge.

In Poe's mind, there are 2 options. (1) there's some plan to get us out of this, hold tight, or (2) there's no plan and this bitch is just gonna steer us in a straight line for 18 hours straight (or until the FO wises up and sends some ships to intercept).

Of course he's gonna go ahead and make a plan, because as far as he knows there is no plan.

And this idiot purple hair chick is being championed as a feminist hero for shutting down Poe's mansplaining lol. When she literally replaced Leia, an actual hero who existed as more than pointless plot contrivance. What a world.

Actually now that I think about it, I bet the reason Leia was even put in a coma was so Purple Hair could make all these dumb calls, because it would have been out of character for Leia. Leia didn't actually do anything in this movie. She just as easily could have stayed in command.
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s0nicfan posted...

Ammonitida posted...

s0nicfan posted...

Ammonitida posted...

That's false. Finn and Rose brought back the traitor whose treachery set up the final act on the abandoned rebel base. Had Poe not mutinied and orchestrated that subplot, everyone would have lived. It was a subversion of another space opera trope. Unfortunately, Poe didn't show any guilt IIRC.

Had Leia's replacement not been a complete and total bitch, REPEATEDLY refusing to even acknowledge that she even had a plan, all the while shitting all over an established hero of the rebellion, Poe wouldn't have revolted. He didn't show guilt because he did what was right with the information he had.

Poe should have been EXECUTED. I don't give a fuck how nice he is. His bravado was getting people killed. He was given a second chance and he blew it AGAIN. That's why Leai stunned his sorry ass when she came to. You want a cliche hero's journey, I get it. But Star Wars needed something different this time.

Star wars needed something different. Holdo wasn't it. I'm sorry if your version of a hero is someone with a shitty attitude that REVELS in being condescending to those everyone else sees as heroes.

He's not a hero, but a rebellious cliche that was subverted. He should have been floated out an airlock to his death instead of getting off easy by being stunned by Leia. How many people did his rebellious attitude get killed again? Like 50% of the rebel force?

AlternativeFAQS posted...

yeah the biggest problem is half the plot happens because Holdo doest share her plan with one of her main fighters... which doesn't make any sense.

For good reason. That main fighter was just demoted for getting people killed and many ships destroyed by disobeying direct orders. He had no business making demands on the newly appointed leader. After that bungle, it was his place to STFU and speak when spoken to. Rian Johnson set up a hero's journey for Poe only to blow it up in your faces! "it will not go the way you think" LOL

AlternativeFAQS posted...

yeah the biggest problem is half the plot happens because Holdo doest share her plan with one of her main fighters... which doesn't make any sense.

She doesn't share her plan with a man who has just proven himself to be unreliable and impulsive, having gotten almost an entire fleet killed because he went off trying to be a hero. She had plenty of justification to not tell him.

s0nicfan posted...

OctilIery posted...

s0nicfan posted...

Ammonitida posted...

That's false. Finn and Rose brought back the traitor whose treachery set up the final act on the abandoned rebel base. Had Poe not mutinied and orchestrated that subplot, everyone would have lived. It was a subversion of another space opera trope. Unfortunately, Poe didn't show any guilt IIRC.

Had Leia's replacement not been a complete and total bitch, REPEATEDLY refusing to even acknowledge that she even had a plan, all the while shitting all over an established hero of the rebellion, Poe wouldn't have revolted. He didn't show guilt because he did what was right with the information he had.

So you miss the whole point of how throwing your life away and big flashy plans don't make you a hero?

No, I missed the whole point of why she refused, even at gunpoint, even at threat of mutiny, to tell Poe that she had a plan. My issue isn't with Poe's plan not being followed. My issue was her entire attitude in every scene she was in.

He had already learned of her transport plan by the time he considered mutiny. In fact, he strongly disagreed with the plan before he and his crew drew weapons on her, believing that her plan was doomed to failure and would get people killed. Ironically it was his secret plan that brought aboard the temporary ally that did what he feared. Didn't you get it when Leia, instead of kissing his ass for his heroic actions against the evil, purple giraffe woman as people in the audience expected, stunned him with her ray gun?

lilORANG posted...

her refusing to tell anyone the plan got like half of the resistance killed.

You do realize that after he learned of her plan, he scoffed at it and that's when he mutinied?

lilORANG posted...

This was clearly just a plot contrivance to get some other subplots in motion.

You probably wouldn't like Star Trek Discovery then. :(

I don't blame Poe for making a backup plan. Regardless of his track record, most of the top leaders were KIA and Leia was out cold. They should've put that aside for the time being and explained stuff to him.
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They should have just thrown him in the brig for disobeying orders and getting the entire bombing fleet wiped out.
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Ammonitida posted...

lilORANG posted...

her refusing to tell anyone the plan got like half of the resistance killed.

You do realize that after he learned of her plan, he scoffed at it and that's when he mutinied?

He didn't know the full plan and Holden gave him the dummy face when he said it was stupid. He didn't know anything about Crait and calling in the homies.

My biggest complaint is all the stupidness exhibited by Huggs, Holden, Snoke, Luke, Kyle, Finn, and Phasma.

It seemed like in a galaxy far far away no one has a clue on how to create a plan and execute it. Everyone are fuck ups.
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The movie would have also been over in about 10 minutes if one of the First Order ships just hyper-jumped to the other side of the Resistance fleet and closed in on them using a pincer attack. We saw at the end that short-range jumps are certainly possible, so there is no excuse.

Or even just have them call on other FO ships to join the fight and take them out. I find it hard to believe they couldn't have gotten any other star ships to the area within 16 hours. Where is the rest of their fleet?

The movie had numerous plot contrivances that existed only to keep the story moving forward. Trash writing, and there is no defending it.
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Skywalker82 posted...

Ammonitida posted...

lilORANG posted...

her refusing to tell anyone the plan got like half of the resistance killed.

You do realize that after he learned of her plan, he scoffed at it and that's when he mutinied?

He didn't know the full plan and Holden gave him the dummy face when he said it was stupid. He didn't know anything about Crait and calling in the homies.

My biggest complaint is all the stupidness exhibited by Huggs, Holden, Snoke, Luke, Kyle, Finn, and Phasma.

It seemed like in a galaxy far far away no one has a clue on how to create a plan and execute it. Everyone are fuck ups.

He knew that multiple people were already in the process of being evacuated on cloaked ships. That's more than enough.

The Admiral posted...

We saw at the end that short-range jumps are certainly possible, so there is no excuse.

Nothing that short range. Come on.

Or even just have them call on other FO ships to join the fight and take them out.

The FO may have been spread too thin across the galaxy for that. This was not the Empire of old.

I find it hard to believe they couldn't have gotten any other star ships to the area within 16 hours. Where is the rest of their fleet?

Securing other regions that are in danger of rebellion.

It was a good movie with two specific moments that were really lame:

1) Princess Leia flying like Peter Pan through space back into the spaceship after being blown out of it by the blast

2) That Rose girl knocking Finn away from the cannon and then saying that dumb line about "it's not about destroying what we hate, it's about saving what we love" and then falling over (I thought dead but apparently not) in the cheesiest way ever, like something out of an SNL skit.

I think it was better than The Force Awakens, which I thought was both too unoriginal in that it copied A New Hope too much, and also I thought that Rey was super overpowered too early in that movie which was lame. This movie was more unpredictable and had plot twists and stuff, and at least Rey had some training at this point.
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Sativa_Rose posted...

1) Princess Leia flying like Peter Pan through space back into the spaceship after being blown out of it by the blast

that scene looked dumb but I can kinda handwave it as "the force." She is a skywalker after all. What irked me is that nobody said anything afterwards. You'd think someone would go "oh wow, that was a cool trick Leia" but it's never mentioned again.
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Ammonitida posted...

The Admiral posted...

We saw at the end that short-range jumps are certainly possible, so there is no excuse.

Nothing that short range. Come on.

Or even just have them call on other FO ships to join the fight and take them out.

The FO may have been spread too thin across the galaxy for that. This was not the Empire of old.

I find it hard to believe they couldn't have gotten any other star ships to the area within 16 hours. Where is the rest of their fleet?

Securing other regions that are in danger of rebellion.

Well yeah they're not the Empire. They were more successful in wiping out the good guys.
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In general it seemed like there were a lot of times where the Empire should have been able to just blow all the resistance up instantly.
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Ammonitida posted...

The FO may have been spread too thin across the galaxy for that.

Spread too thin doing what? TLJ establishes that the resistance was basically everyone on that one cruiser. Nobody else from around the galaxy came to help when Leia triggered her distress beacon. TFO isn't at constant war with every world. It controls a good chunk of them. The first line of the opening crawl was literally "The First Order reigns!"

Everything about the slow speed chase and everything it led to was complete nonsense.
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Sativa_Rose posted...

In general it seemed like there were a lot of times where the Empire should have been able to just blow all the resistance up instantly.

They were overconfident. Hux and Snoke were both laughing that they had the resistance up against the wall.
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DarthAragorn posted...

Ammonitida posted...

The Admiral posted...

We saw at the end that short-range jumps are certainly possible, so there is no excuse.

Nothing that short range. Come on.

Or even just have them call on other FO ships to join the fight and take them out.

The FO may have been spread too thin across the galaxy for that. This was not the Empire of old.

I find it hard to believe they couldn't have gotten any other star ships to the area within 16 hours. Where is the rest of their fleet?

Securing other regions that are in danger of rebellion.

Well yeah they're not the Empire. They were more successful in wiping out the good guys.

Largely thanks to Poe's rebellion that ultimately uncloaked the transport ships......and that convenient tracking device. Don't ever watch Dark Matters if you don't like that kind of stuff. Plenty of slow cruiser chases in that series as well as tracking devises.

lilORANG posted...

Sativa_Rose posted...

1) Princess Leia flying like Peter Pan through space back into the spaceship after being blown out of it by the blast

that scene looked dumb but I can kinda handwave it as "the force." She is a skywalker after all. What irked me is that nobody said anything afterwards. You'd think someone would go "oh wow, that was a cool trick Leia" but it's never mentioned again.

Eh, it's been 30 years. Who knows what she could have learned from Luke. She might have done crazy shit like that before.
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lilORANG posted...

Everything about the slow speed chase and everything it led to was complete nonsense.

I mean they should have learned from studying Germany in WW1 that dreadnoughts are a huge expenditure and end up not doing much because of how big bulky and slow they are.

But I guess this was all actually in the past because it was a long time ago according to the beginning, so WW1 hasn't happened yet.
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Ammonitida posted...

Largely thanks to Poe's rebellion that ultimately uncloaked the transport ships.

That's a plot hole. If Poe had no idea what the plan was, how did the codebreaker know what it was to tell it to the first order when their plan failed and he betrayed Finn/Rose? Poe's plan had nothing to do with escape ships, yet the codebreaker knew about them specifically in telling the first order to scan for them.
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s0nicfan posted...

Ammonitida posted...

Largely thanks to Poe's rebellion that ultimately uncloaked the transport ships.

That's a plot hole. If Poe had no idea what the plan was, how did the codebreaker know what it was to tell it to the first order when their plan failed and he betrayed Finn/Rose? Poe's plan had nothing to do with escape ships, yet the codebreaker knew about them specifically in telling the first order to scan for them.

Poe radioed the plan to Finn's team as motivation to hurry the fuck up.
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s0nicfan posted...

Ammonitida posted...

Largely thanks to Poe's rebellion that ultimately uncloaked the transport ships.

That's a plot hole. If Poe had no idea what the plan was, how did the codebreaker know what it was to tell it to the first order when their plan failed and he betrayed Finn/Rose? Poe's plan had nothing to do with escape ships, yet the codebreaker knew about them specifically in telling the first order to scan for them.

Poe already knew about the plan by that time.

s0nicfan posted...

Ammonitida posted...

Largely thanks to Poe's rebellion that ultimately uncloaked the transport ships.

That's a plot hole. If Poe had no idea what the plan was, how did the codebreaker know what it was to tell it to the first order when their plan failed and he betrayed Finn/Rose? Poe's plan had nothing to do with escape ships, yet the codebreaker knew about them specifically in telling the first order to scan for them.

It's also a plot hole that Maz says only the Codebreaker in the casino could possibly get past the ship's defenses, and then some random prisoner managers to also have this skill. You can try to excuse this by saying he already made a deal with the FO by then, but that's not the way the film is shot. He also wouldn't necessarily know they would be interested in making a deal instead of just killing all of them, so this is either a plot hole or shitty writing again.
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lilORANG posted...

Ammonitida posted...

The FO may have been spread too thin across the galaxy for that.

Spread too thin doing what? TLJ establishes that the resistance was basically everyone on that one cruiser. Nobody else from around the galaxy came to help when Leia triggered her distress beacon. TFO isn't at constant war with every world. It controls a good chunk of them. The first line of the opening crawl was literally "The First Order reigns!"

Everything about the slow speed chase and everything it led to was complete nonsense.

I was thinking of local rebellions by people not directly associated with Leia's rebels. That's one of the reasons why the Aztec empire had trouble expanding. It frequently had to put down local rebellions.

I guess. It just seems like local rebellions would throw their lot in with the resistance. That's how the OT rebels worked, getting inside help from senators and stuff. It was an alliance after all, and Leia was apart of it. You'd think she'd know to try to unite all under the resistance cause, rather than let rebellions play themselves out while she and her merry band float around in one ship.
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Did anyone else expect a podrace when Finn and Rose were on that casino planet? I would've welcomed one over that deformed horse race.
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People comparing this to a Marvel movie must be out of their damn minds

This had less humour than either TFA or Rogue One. Waaaaaaaaaaaaay less. Try watching them.

There were such few jokes I walked away thinking this what a bleak and dark movie this was.

The problem with the humour in this movie as that it just wasnt that funny. It want cringey, you gotta have a pretty fucking low tolerance for cringe. It just didnt land. Marvel movies humour is almost always on point. Saying this is like a marvel movie is hilarious...because the movie wasnt funny. I was in a packed theatre and the jokes just didnt hit. Not like TFA, not like Rogue One and certainly not like any MCU movie.
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SwayM posted...

This had less humour than either TFA or Rogue One. Waaaaaaaaaaaaay less. Try watching them.

There were such few jokes I walked away thinking this what a bleak and dark movie this was.

tell that to guys sitting behind me. maybe they were high. they thought almost every little thing was hilarious and one of them had a really loud laugh

SwayM posted...

This had less humour than either TFA or Rogue One.

Come on, those birds in the cockpit with Chewy were hilarious! And Rey cutting the rock and accidentally destroying the cart of those fish people? Comic gold!
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SwayM posted...

People comparing this to a Marvel movie must be out of their damn minds

This had less humour than either TFA or Rogue One. Waaaaaaaaaaaaay less. Try watching them.

Agreed. That was actually a note I made to myself in the theater: "at least people can't say this one felt too much like an MCU movie"

So I was very surprised when I saw that very criticism. It opened with Poe joking. There was the milk scene, the porgs, and Hux getting clowned every time he was on screen. But everything on the cruiser was played straight, as were all the Kylo segments, and most of the Rey stuff other than Luke's tickle fight thing. There were long stretches without a joke.
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The Admiral posted...

SwayM posted...

This had less humour than either TFA or Rogue One.

Come on, those birds in the cockpit with Chewy were hilarious! And Rey cutting the rock and accidentally destroying the cart of those fish people? Comic gold!

Just admit that Rey literally reaching out her hand to feel the force was funny. The whole audience at my theater laughed.

SwayM posted...

People comparing this to a Marvel movie must be out of their damn minds

This had less humour than either TFA or Rogue One. Waaaaaaaaaaaaay less. Try watching them.

There were such few jokes I walked away thinking this what a bleak and dark movie this was.

The problem with the humour in this movie as that it just wasnt that funny. It want cringey, you gotta have a pretty fucking low tolerance for cringe. It just didnt land. Marvel movies humour is almost always on point. Saying this is like a marvel movie is hilarious...because the movie wasnt funny. I was in a packed theatre and the jokes just didnt hit. Not like TFA, not like Rogue One and certainly not like any MCU movie.

Yeah, trying to remember the parts where I actually laughed...

-Luke tossing the lightsaber. Wasn't like a "haha that's hilarious" laugh, but a "that was unexpected" laugh.
-Porgs watching Chewie eat one of their friends
-BB8 on the ATST
-Luke brushing dust off his shoulder

The other jokes just made me smile a bit, or maybe a small chuckle. Nothing like a Marvel movie.
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Ammonitida posted...

The Admiral posted...

SwayM posted...

This had less humour than either TFA or Rogue One.

Come on, those birds in the cockpit with Chewy were hilarious! And Rey cutting the rock and accidentally destroying the cart of those fish people? Comic gold!

Just admit that Rey literally reaching out her hand to feel the force was funny. The whole audience at my theater laughed.

Oh, I forgot about that one. Luke's expression was fucking hilarious.
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I also laughed when Snoke made fun of Kylo for "losing to a girl with no light saber training".

My audience clapped three fucking times.

Three fucking times people clapped during the movie.
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Sativa_Rose posted...

My audience clapped three fucking times.

Three fucking times people clapped during the movie.

Well, it's a great movie. Can't blame them.

Lots of people clapped after the twist with Luke's astroprojection at my viewing. The best Star Wars moment I ever had. I didn't clap though.

the only time people clapped for me was when Yoda showed up
and the end
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The Admiral posted...

s0nicfan posted...

Ammonitida posted...

s0nicfan posted...

Ammonitida posted...

It turns out, the admiral had the perfect plan and Poe didn't learn from him mistake, and cost more lives to be lost. A trope subverted.

That's utter bullshit. Poe didn't KNOW he was making a mistake, because he had all the information available to him when he kicked off that sidequest. At the time, his options were "wait until we run out of fuel" or "find a way to escape". The admiral was a shitty character with a shitty attitude and I can not for the life of me understand why a single person is defending the way she treated everyone else.

Your complaints are bullshit. You still don't get it.

Holdo was a shitty character with a shitty attitude that openly enjoyed looking down on characters everyone else saw as a hero, and went out of her way to hide information she didn't need to hide. She didn't even need to SAY her plan... saying "I have a plan. Leia trusts me, please trust me too" would have been enough.

Agreed. But if she had done that, many of the plotlines in the movie wouldn't have occurred.

This should be a lesson in screen writing 101. If the only way you can advance the plot is to have characters act intentionally stupid or withhold information from each other for no defensible reason, your writing is shitty. Go back to drawing board and find more creative and organic ways to advance the narrative.

I agree strongly with this. Holdo was a crappy plot device that initiated another pointless sideplot with Finn and Rose. Fuck all that and just give me an hour of intense space fighting between the two sides.
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littlebro07 posted...

Oh, I forgot about that one. Luke's expression was fucking hilarious.

I liked that one because it felt like a self aware stab at how poorly Rey was written in the first movie.
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