Current Events > We have to re-examine our toxic, privileged, encroaching masculinity itself

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/19/opinion/sexual-harassment-men-.html
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Toxic masculinity is disgusting.

Bunch of small dicked, insecure fuckers who need to compensate.
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"This is a man problem."

Imagine literally any other group.
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Men have been so conditioned against emotional intelligence thats for women, we are told that they are blithering idiots at reading the subtleties of allure or aversion.
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Get all the way the fuck out.
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The moral of the story is, even of you're a horny ass-grabbing prick, you've got at least a decade (usually a few) before anyone bothers to mention anything.

Questionmarktarius posted...

The moral of the story is, even of your a horny ass-grabbing prick, you've got at least a decade (usually a few) before anyone bothers to mention anything.

It takes courage to come forward.
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Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

"This is a man problem."

Imagine literally any other group.

It was written by a man.

Also, is he wrong?
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most women you know have dealt with unwanted sexual advances. I'm sure they can't wait for a CE-style counter argument to their experiences.
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YoshitoKikuchi posted...

Men have been so conditioned against emotional intelligence thats for women, we are told that they are blithering idiots at reading the subtleties of allure or aversion.

That sounds like something out of a MRA pamphlet.
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the irony is actually the answer is literally beta males

they don't sexually harass anyone

and yet women would literally be the first ones to call them "ballless"

now, I am not saying women are responsible for toxic masculinity

I am just saying they also contribute to putting down a segment of men who don't subscribe to it
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darkphoenix181 posted...

I am just saying they also contribute to putting down a segment of men who don't subscribe to it

I def feel like there is A LOT of grey area here.

Yes of course you have straight up sexual offenders. But like you said how many of these claims are portrayed accurately?
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darkphoenix181 posted...

the irony is actually the answer is literally beta males

they don't sexually harass anyone

Haha oh yes they do. Regularly. Let's not pretend like the alphas are the only ones out there groping women and making unwanted advances. Beta males just do it differently, usually with a "just kidding" at the end, or with unsolicited dick pics via text.
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so much gray
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That_Happened posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

the irony is actually the answer is literally beta males

they don't sexually harass anyone

Haha oh yes they do. Regularly. Let's not pretend like the alphas are the only ones out there groping women and making unwanted advances. Beta males just do it differently, usually with a "just kidding" at the end.

so many betas think they're "nice guys," lol. so quick to turn around and victim blame and/or wanna share blame at their earliest convenience
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to above I will explain

the so called alpha male gets women this way

-he comes on really strong almost to the point where he just grabs the woman by the p**** and sometimes literally does
-he shops around as in is flirting with and dating multiple women at once
-he will end a relationship or never start it at his whim because sex is his #1 goal
-woman find him full of charisma, self-confidence and addictive

the so called beta male

-he is so careful with how he flirts that women often miss it and they become friends before he can admit he has feelings, all because he is careful to not be inappropriate
-even if he is not dating the woman, she is all he cares about at the time; the idea of multiple women disgusts him
-usually won't end any relationship without a really good reason
-woman think he has no spine and might even say he is unattractive (not all women though)
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darkphoenix181 posted...

-he is so careful with how he flirts that women often miss it and they become friends before he can admit he has feelings, all because he is careful to not be inappropriate
-even if he is not dating the woman, she is all he cares about at the time; the idea of multiple women disgusts him
-usually won't end any relationship without a really good reason
-woman think he has no spine and might even say he is unattractive (not all women though)

Are you sure this isn't a stalker?

That_Happened posted...

Haha oh yes they do. Regularly. Let's not pretend like the alphas are the only ones out there groping women and making unwanted advances. Beta males just do it differently, usually with a "just kidding" at the end, or with unsolicited dick pics via text.

the whole point of being a beta is they are too spineless to even think about doing such behavior

so no

stop projecting your hate of them because you think you are an alpha and want toxic masculinity to look better because "your alternative is worse than us alphas!!"
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Questionmarktarius posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

-he is so careful with how he flirts that women often miss it and they become friends before he can admit he has feelings, all because he is careful to not be inappropriate
-even if he is not dating the woman, she is all he cares about at the time; the idea of multiple women disgusts him
-usually won't end any relationship without a really good reason
-woman think he has no spine and might even say he is unattractive (not all women though)

Are you sure this isn't a stalker?

see what I mean?
you deliberately want to paint this type of guy as really really bad

why?
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darkphoenix181 posted...

the whole point of being a beta is they are too spineless to even think about doing such behavior

No, it's not that betas are so spineless to act in such a way. They're just not upfront and confident about it. They manipulate and find ways around it. When you're friends with women you find out a LOT about beta males, and unsolicited dick pics are right at the top of the list.
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YoshitoKikuchi posted...

It takes courage to come forward.

And?

That_Happened posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

the whole point of being a beta is they are too spineless to even think about doing such behavior

No, it's not that betas are so spineless to act in such a way. They're just not upfront and confident about it. They manipulate and find ways around it. When you're friends with women you find out a LOT about beta males, and unsolicited dick pics are right at the top of the list.

a beta doesn't send dick picks

that is literally not a beta, it breaks the definition

you telling me that you can send a pick of your weiner and lack confidence? sorry but it takes extreme confidence to send your dick to someone

it also breaks the rule of being scared to tell girl you like her, you sent your dick to her, there is no more illusion
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Questionmarktarius posted...

YoshitoKikuchi posted...

It takes courage to come forward.

And?

That are afraid to come forward at the time because they will not be believed or their career opportunities will negatively be impacted.
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We have to

I don't have to do a god damn thing. Lincoln set 'em free.
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YoshitoKikuchi posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

YoshitoKikuchi posted...

It takes courage to come forward.

And?

That are afraid to come forward at the time because they will not be believed or their career opportunities will negatively be impacted.

Someone willing to sacrifice a career is vast more believable than someone who waits thirty years for someone else to speak up first.

I guess, though, TMZ didn't exist thirty years ago, and the only real approximation was tabloids.

darkphoenix181 posted...

a beta doesn't send dick picks

that is literally not a beta, it breaks the definition

Then your definition is wrong. Or we're working from two different definitions. My good friend showed me a conversation between her and this fairly unattractive dude who had been "friends" with her for months, and out of the blue he sent her a dick pic, asking "if it looked ok or if she thought women would like it." She said this happens regularly with guys who are unsure of themselves, especially with "friendzoned" types...it's a secret way of asking "hey do you like my dick?" but without having the balls to come out and ask specifically. Other friends of mine have similar stories. Sure there are the "alphas" who send you their dick instantly on dating sites, but they can always expect a close male friend at some point to do the same thing only...gently.
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That_Happened posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

the whole point of being a beta is they are too spineless to even think about doing such behavior

No, it's not that betas are so spineless to act in such a way. They're just not upfront and confident about it. They manipulate and find ways around it. When you're friends with women you find out a LOT about beta males, and unsolicited dick pics are right at the top of the list.

Notice how many sex offenders are also betas? They'll use a position of power for exploitation because they have no game. They'll target children, women with low self esteem, women with nowhere else to turn, the disabled, etc...

Harvey Weinstein's face alone couldn't have gotten panties to drop without paying for it. It's not like he had a heart of gold, lol.
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That_Happened posted...

Then your definition is wrong. Or we're working from two different definitions.

yes we are working with different definitions

I listed mine above

yours on the other hand is any guy who is evil, manipulative etc which is a biased definition

alphas can be unsure of themselves too you see, except that he can send his dick to 12 different women at once hoping one asks for sex

so from you and your friends standpoint: "he is a beta because he didn't just burst out asking me out!"

but from a real standpoint he is playing multiple women literally sending his dick out to them
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It's not masculinity that's the problem; it's not knowing the simple fact that you don't grope people because it's sexual assault it's inherently wrong.

You can be a man and not sexually assault people, ffs.
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So the stories that break on a weekly basis of female school teachers having sex with underage male students, that's a woman problem and it's toxic, privileged femininity, right?
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Patchwork posted...

It's not masculinity that's the problem; it's not knowing the simple fact that you don't grope people because it's sexual assault it's inherently wrong.

You can be a man and not sexually assault people, ffs.

except you just highlighted a big part of the problem

you think actual groping is the ONLY issue

from the article:

Sexual advances in a professional environment, particularly from a position of power, are highly inappropriate and could be illegal.

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darkphoenix181 posted...

yours on the other hand is any guy who is evil, manipulative etc which is a biased definition

Nope, not evil. Evil has nothing to do with it. Just guys who aren't confident enough to be forward, who take advantage of any rare "opportunity" they see.
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also

article highlights literally what I said:

Guys become gamblers. They simply play the numbers. What nine women may find revolting the tenth may reward.
They dont even recognize what offense the nine may have experienced. They are blind to it. In the male mind, any peccadillo is excusable in the pursuit of compatibility.

really, what mainly separates "alpha" from "beta" is this

beta will focus on one or a few women he really likes

alpha just kinda tries any woman he sees till he gets the jackpot which encourages certain scummy behavior
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darkphoenix181 posted...

Patchwork posted...

It's not masculinity that's the problem; it's not knowing the simple fact that you don't grope people because it's sexual assault it's inherently wrong.

You can be a man and not sexually assault people, ffs.

except you just highlighted a big part of the problem

you think actual groping is the ONLY issue

from the article:

Sexual advances in a professional environment, particularly from a position of power, are highly inappropriate and could be illegal.

he never said it was the only issue. you're making another dishonest argument.

and from a perspective of somebody who doesn't go on dates.
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r4X0r posted...

So the stories that break on a weekly basis of female school teachers having sex with underage male students, that's a woman problem and it's toxic, privileged femininity, right?

If almost every male had a story of their teachers having sex with them or touching them inappropriately you'd have something approaching a point.
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darkphoenix181 posted...

Patchwork posted...

It's not masculinity that's the problem; it's not knowing the simple fact that you don't grope people because it's sexual assault it's inherently wrong.

You can be a man and not sexually assault people, ffs.

except you just highlighted a big part of the problem

you think actual groping is the ONLY issue

from the article:

Sexual advances in a professional environment, particularly from a position of power, are highly inappropriate and could be illegal.

I never said groping was the only issue; it was the obvious one, given the slew of recent news. But the quoted section there also seems like common sense to me, and I stand by the fact that unwarranted or inappropriate sexual advances don't define masculinity.

They define weak-willed, predatory dickwads.
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RickyTheBAWSE posted...

he never said it was the only issue. you're making another dishonest argument.

and from a perspective of somebody who doesn't go on dates.

re-read it

It's not masculinity that's
the problem;

it's not knowing the simple fact that you don't grope people because it's sexual assault it's inherently wrong.

groping isn't even the #1 issue, the bigger issue is men with power asking vulnerable women for sex and they feel like they can't say no and they guy thinks that means it is ok

this compasses literally: weinstein, louis ck, franken etc
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if I understood the context of what he was saying, so should you. but dishonesty is a different beast.

Patchwork posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

Patchwork posted...

It's not masculinity that's the problem; it's not knowing the simple fact that you don't grope people because it's sexual assault it's inherently wrong.

You can be a man and not sexually assault people, ffs.

except you just highlighted a big part of the problem

you think actual groping is the ONLY issue

from the article:

Sexual advances in a professional environment, particularly from a position of power, are highly inappropriate and could be illegal.

I never said groping was the only issue; it was the obvious one, given the slew of recent news. But the quoted section there also seems like common sense to me, and I stand by the fact that unwarranted or inappropriate sexual advances don't define masculinity.

They define weak-willed, predatory dickwads.

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RickyTheBAWSE posted...

if I understood the context of what he was saying, so should you. but dishonesty is a different beast.

so let's think for a second

guy says "THE problem is groping"

but you and he say "actually that isn't what I meant, THE problem is tons of different things!"

and you call me dishonest

consider for a second that the quoted posted said: "It's not masculinity that's the problem, it is knowing not to grope"

so explain then what all these other problems are other than groping and how they don't fit into masculinity
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You just ignored it.
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Patchwork posted...

You just ignored it.

define masculinity then
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darkphoenix181 posted...

guy says "THE problem is groping"

He didn't capitalize or put any emphasis on "the". And he didn't say the word "only" either. He was giving an example of a problem, but his comments weren't suggesting it was the only problem. You added that in. Why? Because:

That_Happened posted...

I told you buddy. Conservatives and details are like oil and water.

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if you guys don't mean what you say
then what is the point?

you say that the article is wrong, masculinity is NOT the problem and you explain what you think the problem is
groping

someone says, sorry sir groping isn't the issue, there is something else, a whole bunch of issues

your retort is
but see, I never said it was groping, I can agree there are tons of other issues and this means I can still reject that masculinity isn't the problem despite it being lots more than groping

so what was the point of the post if groping isn't the problem? there really isn't a point because you just invalidated that whole post by admitting there is tons more issues

this is basically the poster child of being disingenuous
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darkphoenix181 posted...

if you guys don't mean what you say

The problem isn't that we don't mean what we say.

We don't mean what you say.

darkphoenix181 posted...

this is basically the poster child of being disingenuous

You describe yourself perfectly here. In from what I can tell every topic you post in.
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Masculinity is striving for success, being driven in that pursuit, taking care of those around you, respecting women, being loyal, being honest, and having integrity.

If you're looking for a broad definition, there you go. It changes, subtly, depending on your upbringing.

Knowing how to fight, how to hunt, how to field dress a kill, being skilled with firearms, and defending those who can't defend themselves are additions from my own youth, drawn from inspirational men in my life. A lot of these are synonymous with traditional masculine definitions, as well.
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Also, I didn't expect to have a full-fledged philosophical debate about my disagreement with the article, so I didn't extrapolate on every single point in my disagreement with its premise.

That you're attempting to say I'm being disingenuous for not doing so is a little ridiculous.
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That_Happened posted...

The problem isn't that we don't mean what we say.

We don't mean what you say.

Ironic that I add nothing to the post, I just took it for what it said

you said "but no see what wasn't typed out? that is important"

but you will continue to act this way because you showed your true colors in quoting your "conserative will do x" in this thread when it has no relevance

first you are upset that I argue with you so you labeled me; but secondly your are looking at this as "my side is superior!"
when literally I fighting on the side of the people and women who wrote the article about toxic masculinity

ironic because my stance in this thread is super liberal and you been acting like a conservative trying to call this a non-issue
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if you have to ignore details in somebody else's argument to make a point, you're likely making a moot point.
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RickyTheBAWSE posted...

if you have to ignore details in somebody else's argument to make a point, you're likely making a moot point.

no detail was ignored

you are hanging up rather on detail that was not expressed

if he meant groping isn't the only issue, that is fine and good

but it also makes that post pretty meaningless
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