Current Events > Which side were you on in Captain America: Civil War?

(+) Yeah! (+)

You keep missing my point.

It is bad that they are not accountable to anyone. It would be EVEN WORSE if they were controlled by the UN
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DarkChozoGhost posted...

You keep missing my point.

It is bad that they are not accountable to anyone. It would be EVEN WORSE if they were controlled by the UN

That's not really a counter-point though. We can both agree that the UN is a pretty worthless oversight committee, but at least there is one. Your argument just means that if there is oversight, it should be better functioning than the UN currently is.
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I like how people still can't really pick a side. Shows how well thought out both sides of the argument were.

I agree that The Avengers as we the audience know them don't need government supervision, so I'm Team Cap. But if I were actually in the MCU, I'd probably be Team Iron Man.

DarkChozoGhost posted...

You keep missing my point.

It is bad that they are not accountable to anyone. It would be EVEN WORSE if they were controlled by the UN

And we just disagree fundamentally with that opinion.
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@pinky0926 posted...

@_MorningStar posted...

If you were on team Stark you weren't paying attention.

Explain

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/3b/7a/2d/3b7a2d55883121ab1f66ba1305d4921a--marvel--marvel-universe.jpg
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ThanksUglyGod posted...

But if I were actually in the MCU, I'd probably be Team Iron Man.

Not sure how you can live in a world where a major government intelligence agency was infiltrated and taken over by super Nazis and think that an inherently political oversight committee could possibly be safe from the influence of said super Nazis.
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What happens if the higher power wants the Avengers to perform a mission and they don't want to?
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As a citizen in that world, I would be on Tony's side.

But knowing what we as an audience know, I think it was clear that Captain America was right.
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pinky0926 posted...

Your argument just means that if there is oversight, it should be better functioning than the UN currently is.

Yes. And since the Sokovia Accords specifically gave those powers of oversight to the UN, they were worse than the current situation. Therefore, signing them would have been a bad move. A more appropriate course of action would have been refusing to Sokovia Accords, but being open towards a different system of checks. Therefore, tony Stark was wrong, because he wanted to sign the Accords, which should not have been signed, because that would have given the powers of oversight to the UN, which would have been an even worse situation than the Avengers having no oversight at all.
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Sad_Face posted...

pinky0926 posted...

_MorningStar posted...

If you were on team Stark you weren't paying attention.

Explain

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/3b/7a/2d/3b7a2d55883121ab1f66ba1305d4921a--marvel--marvel-universe.jpg

Funny, and I see the point, although I still don't think Captain America is automatically right by virtue of being on the right side of history so far.
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Trigg3rH4ppy posted...

Team Stark. Superheroes shouldn't really be allowed free reign.

You're right. Next time there's a alien attack on the world, I nominate @Trigg3rH4ppy, and Trigg3rH4ppy alone to fight them. Good luck dude!

Team Cap all the way!!!
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1NfamousACE_2 posted...

What happens if the higher power wants the Avengers to perform a mission and they don't want to?

They don't do it.
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DarkChozoGhost posted...

pinky0926 posted...

Your argument just means that if there is oversight, it should be better functioning than the UN currently is.

Yes. And since the Sokovia Accords specifically gave those powers of oversight to the UN, they were worse than the current situation. Therefore, signing them would have been a bad move. A more appropriate course of action would have been refusing to Sokovia Accords, but being open towards a different system of checks. Therefore, tony Stark was wrong, because he wanted to sign the Accords, which should not have been signed, because that would have given the powers of oversight to the UN, which would have been an even worse situation than the Avengers having no oversight at all.

I still don't believe that being accountable to the UN is worse than being accountable to literally no one.
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Team Stark

I don't approve of vigilantes.
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Xelltrix posted...

1NfamousACE_2 posted...

What happens if the higher power wants the Avengers to perform a mission and they don't want to?

They don't do it.

And you think there would be no backlash?
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1NfamousACE_2 posted...

What happens if the higher power wants the Avengers to perform a mission and they don't want to?

That is literally what Captain America asks in the movie.
"That's good! That's why I'm here. When I realized what my weapons were capable of in the wrong hands, I shut it down. Stopped manufacturing."
"Tony, you chose to do that. If we sign this, we surrender our right to choose. What if this panel sends us somewhere we don't think we should go? What if there's somewhere we need to go and they don't let us? We may not be perfect but the safest hands are still our own."
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Wedge Antilles posted...

Team Stark

I don't approve of vigilantes.

Think about it though, If Thanos attack Earth, who do you want stopping him?
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ThePrinceFish posted...

ThanksUglyGod posted...

But if I were actually in the MCU, I'd probably be Team Iron Man.

Not sure how you can live in a world where a major government intelligence agency was infiltrated and taken over by super Nazis and think that an inherently political oversight committee could possibly be safe from the influence of said super Nazis.

Fair point. I guess I'm assuming that something like that couldn't happen again.

I think a lot of people are judging this based off of meta knowledge rather than in world logic.

Meta knowledge says Captain America is good and pure and he should do whatever he wants because he will do the right thing.

Meta knowledge says that Starks side is a secret plot by evil to do bad things because their plans are more elaborate than anything Yagami Light could ever come up with.

However, in world logic tells us that I don't trust anybody to be totally wholesome and perfect and always make the right choice, especially where millions of lives and hundreds of millions of dollars are at stake. Contrarily I am wary of government oversight but checks and balances do help to prevent people from doing whatever they feel like, fuck the consequences.
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1NfamousACE_2 posted...

And you think there would be no backlash?

As opposed to the complete lack of backlash if they didn't have an overseeing government entity at all...?
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Kajagogo posted...

Wedge Antilles posted...

Team Stark

I don't approve of vigilantes.

Think about it though, If Thanos attack Earth, who do you want stopping him?

Topic creator
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Ricky-Williams posted...

I think a lot of people are judging this based off of meta knowledge rather than in world logic.

Meta knowledge says Captain America is good and pure and he should do whatever he wants because he will do the right thing.

Meta knowledge says that Starks side is a secret plot by evil to do bad things because their plans are more elaborate than anything Yagami Light could ever come up with.

However, in world logic tells us that I don't trust anybody to be totally wholesome and perfect and always make the right choice, especially where millions of lives and hundreds of millions of dollars are at stake. Contrarily I am wary of government oversight but checks and balances do help to prevent people from doing whatever they feel like, fuck the consequences.

Just said it all better than I have been all topic, thanks
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ZCheveyo posted...

1NfamousACE_2 posted...

What happens if the higher power wants the Avengers to perform a mission and they don't want to?

That is literally what Captain America asks in the movie.
"That's good! That's why I'm here. When I realized what my weapons were capable of in the wrong hands, I shut it down. Stopped manufacturing."
"Tony, you chose to do that. If we sign this, we surrender our right to choose. What if this panel sends us somewhere we don't think we should go? What if there's somewhere we need to go and they don't let us? We may not be perfect but the safest hands are still our own."

Remind me how you made your fortune?
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Team Cap 4 lyfe
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Ricky-Williams posted...

I think a lot of people are judging this based off of meta knowledge rather than in world logic.

Meta knowledge says Captain America is good and pure and he should do whatever he wants because he will do the right thing.

Meta knowledge says that Starks side is a secret plot by evil to do bad things because their plans are more elaborate than anything Yagami Light could ever come up with.

However, in world logic tells us that I don't trust anybody to be totally wholesome and perfect and always make the right choice, especially where millions of lives and hundreds of millions of dollars are at stake. Contrarily I am wary of government oversight but checks and balances do help to prevent people from doing whatever they feel like, fuck the consequences.

They're basing it on this plus the fact that the movie kind of set it up a little awkwardly since the in the movie world, the government is clearly evil and keeps doing evil things. I'm talking from a realistic standpoint where both sides would be far more gray. In Civil War, they kept showing public catastrophes that would have been FAR worse if the Avengers hadn't gotten involved and used that as the reason they need to be controlled. Sakovia being the tipping point despite the fact everyone on the ground would have died if Scarlet Witch hadn't interfered...



Now I'm talking from a realistic standpoint that in our universe, they would need to be checked because we're not going to be gifted the fact that these good guys are virtuous and can do no wrong and will always be morally superior to the government.
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ZCheveyo posted...

1NfamousACE_2 posted...

What happens if the higher power wants the Avengers to perform a mission and they don't want to?

That is literally what Captain America asks in the movie.
"That's good! That's why I'm here. When I realized what my weapons were capable of in the wrong hands, I shut it down. Stopped manufacturing."
"Tony, you chose to do that. If we sign this, we surrender our right to choose. What if this panel sends us somewhere we don't think we should go? What if there's somewhere we need to go and they don't let us? We may not be perfect but the safest hands are still our own."

This is where things get tricky, because as Ricky-Williams pointed out we know that Captain America will always make the right choice, but realistically what right does he have to do that? He just assigned himself the arbiter of war with that statement.
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pinky0926 posted...

I still don't believe that being accountable to the UN is worse than being accountable to literally no one.

Then you're wrong. The UN is objectively corrupt, and it's even worse in the MCU, especially with Hydra.

The correct course of action would have been to reject the Sokova Accords, but agree to suspend most Avenger activity until a better solution could be reached. It was literally drawn up overnight.
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Team Captain. Just because Tony was irresponsible doesn't mean all superheroes are. He basically said because of a mistake I made everybody else should be punished.
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Team Cap.

Because I kept thinking about comicbook Tony Stark and how he was basically a supervillain during that arc.
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The comics definitely wanted you to pick Cap pretty hard, lol. They managed to balance it a bit better in Civil War with the trailers really skewing it towards Tony but the movie itself definitely trending towards Cap's ideals as the "correct" answer.
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pinky0926 posted...

Sad_Face posted...

pinky0926 posted...

_MorningStar posted...

If you were on team Stark you weren't paying attention.

Explain

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/3b/7a/2d/3b7a2d55883121ab1f66ba1305d4921a--marvel--marvel-universe.jpg

Funny, and I see the point, although I still don't think Captain America is automatically right by virtue of being on the right side of history so far.

We don't normally create restrictions until people start abusing them. And it comes off as disrespectful if an entire group has to take the fall for the consistent wrongdoings of a single person. It'd be much more impactful and honorable if they sat down with the group to have a discussion about it as opposed to demanding they relinquish all autonomy right there and then. This way you still show a level a respect that the team deserves from their past outings and trust in the group that they have the best intentions.

But the way they handled in the show, it wasn't very convincing, the justification for being on Tony's side, since like @lilORANG mentioned earlier, they gave Tony a case of idiot syndrome at the beginning of the movie. Cap got it too later on, the big war between the sides would have been avoided had Cap and Becky explain the situation.
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The thing is, Tony himself proves exactly why his stance was right when he became a murderous crazy person who put his own personal feelings ahead of everything at the end.

Tony is the bad guy while also being kind of right. But the only reason he is kind of right is because he's not a very good hero at the end of the day.

It's also important to note that even Cap was coming around until he realized Tony was keeping Wanda under house arrest.
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How about Tony Stark just stop using the Iron Man suit?

Solves that problem
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1NfamousACE_2 posted...

How about Tony Stark just stop using the Iron Man suit?

Solves that problem

He'd have to stop using his brain too since he can't be trusted with it, lol.

Though, honestly, it was only because Wanda warped his mind which is kind of unfair. That's got to be as bad/worse than being drugged.
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Whichever side Elizabeth Olsen's boobs were in.
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Kajagogo posted...

Wedge Antilles posted...

Team Stark

I don't approve of vigilantes.

Think about it though, If Thanos attack Earth, who do you want stopping him?

Stan Lee
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The U.N is made up of dog shit stupid leaders, if they had been in charge, Ultron would have wiped the planet out with his attack in Sokovia because the Avengers would have never been able to intervene quick enough.

If you need to reign them in, you need to consider doing away with nation borders. The state of their world in a universe with supers make no sense tbqh.
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Team Rogers

Trigg3rH4ppy posted...

Team Stark. Superheroes shouldn't really be allowed free reign.

A superhero registry only hurts those who register with it.

No empowered criminal would ever register with a government agency and those that do run the risk that the information could be compromised and they become vulnerable in their private lives.

It's basically the argument against DRM but with lethal consequences. Those that choose to live outside the law do so without repercussion while those who remain lawful are burdened with something that doesn't benefit them at all.
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And for who ever brought up my hero and one punch, everyone's a hero in those societies just it's more of a job and Has a different morality behind it
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Not everyone is a hero in either, there are plenty of normal civillians in both of those, in my hero academia is is more rare to be normal than to have powers but it still happens, in OPM as far as the series has revealed (not following the manga yet) there has been no ratio from powered to normal people revealed yet but there were pleny regular civilians in the sea king arc for example.

EDIT: that said, the morality should be no different, the argument is the exact same, if you have useful but ultimately dangerous abilities, you should have some restrictions in place and follow guidlines to help protect the peace of the community, this is explained by the black hole teacher who has the blackhole ability in season 1.
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Team Cap. Easy.
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Team this should have happened. How dare that menace steal from a WW2 Veteran.


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Out of the two I would have picked Stark to resist and Cap to sign based on their personalities, then civil war could have been IM3
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