Poll of the Day > Picard used to be my favorite, but as I get older ...

(+) Yeah! (+)

and less idealistic, Sisko is my clear favorite captain.

Also, people are way to hard on Janeway. Her writing was inconsistent, but she actually accomplished some pretty bad ass things for a captain.

I've always broken down like this:

Picard - better diplomat/explorer and better peacetime captain
Sisko - better wartime captain

Basically Picard is the perfect captain for the Enterprise's mission and Sisko is the perfect captain to be in charge of the most strategic station in the quadrant. Picard would have never gotten the Romulans to join the Dominion War (he would have shut down Garak on day 1 if he even asked him for help), but Sisko would have started a war with the Romulans had he been captain of the Enterprise.

Dash_Harber posted...

Also, people are way to hard on Janeway. Her writing was inconsistent, but she actually accomplished some pretty bad ass things for a captain.

They're hard on her because she's a hypocritical psychopath who should have been put in prison rather than promoted to fucking Vice Admiral above Picard.

Duck-I-Says posted...

I've always broken down like this:

Picard - better diplomat/explorer and better peacetime captain
Sisko - better wartime captain

Basically Picard is the perfect captain for the Enterprise's mission and Sisko is the perfect captain to be in charge of the most strategic station in the quadrant. Picard would have never gotten the Romulans to join the Dominion War (he would have shut down Garak on day 1 if he even asked him for help), but Sisko would have started a war with the Romulans had he been captain of the Enterprise.

Yeah, pretty much. However, people tend to let Picard off easy. He literally wanted to use a child as a bio-weapon to kill the Borg. Let's not forget that this is something Janeway is shown as heroic for absolutely condemning.

Duck-I-Says posted...

They're hard on her because she's a hypocritical psychopath who should have been put in prison rather than promoted to fucking Vice Admiral above Picard.

I don't get the promotion, but example? Tuvix incoming in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

kirk. (the tv version, not the reboot movies)
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Picard was the perfect captain for the Federation flagship. A measured and reasonable man who still had the spine for violence when necessary, and a gift for diplomacy.

Sisko was exactly what DS9 needed. A captain that would punch Q in the face 10 minutes after he shows up. A man who would lie, cheat and steal to bring the Romulans into the Dominion War and wasn't going to take shit from anybody.

Voyager only makes sense if you view it through the lens of Janeway being bipolar with Tuvok and the EMH concealing her condition.
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Dash_Harber posted...

I don't get the promotion, but example? Tuvix incoming in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

Not sure why you need me to find an example when you already know the most obvious one. She murdered a sentient, and entirely new, lifeform. She should lose her commission and be put on trial for that alone, but I'll humor you with some more:

High Treason
* Provided weapons technology to a active enemy of the Federation, the Borg, abetting an attempt at genocide so that she could get home a little quicker. - If the Federation still had the Death Penalty, she should honestly be at risk of it for this crime.

Murder
* Tuvix - already covered

Attempted Murder/Torture
* Agreeing to hand over Captain Ransom to an enemy for execution

* Putting an Equinox crew member in the cargo bay, tied to a chair at the mercy of an alien species that wanted to kill him. She was willing to see her gestapo tactics all the way to his death given that Chakotay had to storm in with a phaser against her orders to stop them.

* Forcing the crew to eat Neelix's cooking and making him a member of the command staff.

Temporal Prime Directive Violations
* Using Admiral Janeway's future tech to get passed the borg transwarp hub defenses

* Keeping the mobile emitter

Prime directive Violations
* Gave holodeck technology to the Hirogen

* Abetting slavery/genocide - After the Hirogen accidentally created sentient holograms, she helped them hunt down their former slaves for the purposes of execution.

Omega Directive Violations
* Told her crew the specifics of the Omega Directive, something serious enough to actually supersede the Prime Directive.

amoral but legal grey area
* Erasing the doctor's memory because of his emotional break down


This was just off the top of my head. I'm sure other people have come up with more exhaustive lists.

We are still a Starfleet vessel and will uphold the Prime Directive at all costs!

10 minutes later, kills a new lifeform and starts a war between 2 races.

And that's Voyager's first episode.


Then again, I can't judge Janeway so harshly when In the Pale Moonlight is my favorite DS9 episode, which is why I choose to think of Janeway as dangerously bipolar rather than outright evil.
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I don't hate Voyager, but Janeway was definitely not one of the better parts of Voyager.

Picard's still my favorite Star Trek Captain, but it's not like I hold him in especially high regard or anything. He's just better written than the others.
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Duck-I-Says posted...

Dash_Harber posted...

I don't get the promotion, but example? Tuvix incoming in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

Not sure why you need me to find an example when you already know the most obvious one. She murdered a sentient, and entirely new, lifeform. She should lose her commission and be put on trial for that alone, but I'll humor you with some more:

High Treason
* Provided weapons technology to a active enemy of the Federation, the Borg, abetting an attempt at genocide so that she could get home a little quicker. - If the Federation still had the Death Penalty, she should honestly be at risk of it for this crime.

Murder
* Tuvix - already covered

Attempted Murder/Torture
* Agreeing to hand over Captain Ransom to an enemy for execution

* Putting an Equinox crew member in the cargo bay, tied to a chair at the mercy of an alien species that wanted to kill him. She was willing to see her gestapo tactics all the way to his death given that Chakotay had to storm in with a phaser against her orders to stop them.

* Forcing the crew to eat Neelix's cooking and making him a member of the command staff.

Temporal Prime Directive Violations
* Using Admiral Janeway's future tech to get passed the borg transwarp hub defenses

* Keeping the mobile emitter

Prime directive Violations
* Gave holodeck technology to the Hirogen

* Abetting slavery/genocide - After the Hirogen accidentally created sentient holograms, she helped them hunt down their former slaves for the purposes of execution.

Omega Directive Violations
* Told her crew the specifics of the Omega Directive, something serious enough to actually supersede the Prime Directive.

amoral but legal grey area
* Erasing the doctor's memory because of his emotional break down


This was just off the top of my head. I'm sure other people have come up with more exhaustive lists.

WhiskeyDisk posted...

We are still a Starfleet vessel and will uphold the Prime Directive at all costs!

10 minutes later, kills a new lifeform and starts a war between 2 races.

And that's Voyager's first episode.


Then again, I can't judge Janeway so harshly when In the Pale Moonlight is my favorite DS9 episode, which is why I choose to think of Janeway as dangerously bipolar rather than outright evil.

The funny thing is I remember as a kid i saw like part of one episode, thinking it was gonna have picard in it. Once i realized she was the captain, i never watched it. Her personality from that episode just did not flow with me. It's unfortunate that some people consider voyager to be the best star trek series.....I respect their opinion but why?
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Dash_Harber posted...

Also, people are way to hard on Janeway. Her writing was inconsistent

You've basically summed up the major problem with Janeway, though.

In theory, she was a strong character, and her actress was great, but the writers could never really decide on what sort of character she was actually supposed to be, so it's almost like there's 3-4 different Janeways and you're never entirely sure when an episode starts which one is going to show up that week.

So one episode she'll absolutely refuse to break the Prime Directive in even the most minor of ways, and then two weeks later she'll murder her way through what might have otherwise been a relatively diplomatic situation.


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ParanoidObsessive posted...

You've basically summed up the major problem with Janeway, though.

In theory, she was a strong character, and her actress was great, but the writers could never really decide on what sort of character she was actually supposed to be, so it's almost like there's 3-4 different Janeways and you're never entirely sure when an episode starts which one is going to show up that week.

So one episode she'll absolutely refuse to break the Prime Directive in even the most minor of ways, and then two weeks later she'll murder her way through what might have otherwise been a relatively diplomatic situation.

I always got the feeling that rather than writing Janeway to be a legitimately strong, charismatic character they just wrote the other characters to be excessively submissive to her authority in a backwards attempt to accomplish the same thing. Take Chakotay, for example. A renegade, former Starfleet Maquis captain turned first officer? That had the potential for a lot of really interesting storylines on how two people with such different ideologies and ways of doing things would come together to form a cohesive crew. Nope, pretty much on day one Chakotay became her whipped dog and with a few minor exceptions, like that one traitor, the Maquis basically fell in line and became good little Starfleet peons. We can't have anyone questioning Janeway's authority otherwise people will start to think she's weak and ineffectual. The audience is too stupid to be trusted with more complex concepts apparently.

I think their logic was more along the lines of "The Maquis and Starfleet personnel have to work together to get back home, and while the Maquis COULD suck it up and take a subordinate position in the crew the Starfleet crew members weren't likely to be all that willing to follow the orders of an outsider/mutineer who forced their way into command, so even the Maquis would be willing to follow Janeway."

But again, bad writing makes that harder to justify sometimes.


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ParanoidObsessive posted...

"The Maquis and Starfleet personnel have to work together to get back home, and while the Maquis COULD suck it up and take a subordinate position in the crew the Starfleet crew members weren't likely to be all that willing to follow the orders of an outsider/mutineer who forced their way into command, so even the Maquis would be willing to follow Janeway."

From a pragmatic standpoint it makes sense that it would be a more Starfleet than Maquis crew. It is their ship, they outnumber the Maquis something like 3-to-1 and they are more disciplined, organized and professional. I am not really complaining about the direction of the crew hierarchy in that regard, I just wanted a lot more friction as the Maquis crew struggled to assimilate with the happy-go-lucky dandies of Starfleet.

It should have been a huge part of the first few seasons and we should have seen real growth on both sides as they both adjusted to each other's presence. Maybe the Starfleet officers learn to bend the rules a little more while the Maquis learn discipline and how to follow a rigid command structure. They explored these concepts maybe 2 or 3 times in the whole series and the crew became so homogenized that one of those times they had to explore it as a hypothetical tactical simulation because at that point it was so preposterous that the Maquis crew was anything but Starfleet. Hell for most of the series them being Maquis was so irrelevant that I totally forgot about it.

yutterh posted...

It's unfortunate that some people consider voyager to be the best star trek series.....I respect their opinion but why?

I don't know if I think it's the best, but when I watched some of it like a decade ago I was generally impressed by the plot of each episode, at least in terms of drama and action. TNG maybe had a lot more philosophically interesting stories, but were often a bit weaker in other areas or even felt a bit silly (definitely not always). (and then, maybe that's how it's supposed to be; that certainly fits the original series: a little silly but still philosophically interesting)
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On the Earth of the Star Trek Universe, they're so politically correct you're not allowed to discriminate people for their mental disorders, so they let Janeway become a captain even though she has multiple personality disorder.
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Duck-I-Says posted...

* Provided weapons technology to a active enemy of the Federation, the Borg, abetting an attempt at genocide so that she could get home a little quicker. - If the Federation still had the Death Penalty, she should honestly be at risk of it for this crime.

And if she had gotten the entire crew killed by both sides, everyone would be dead. Also, if you watch the episode again, she doesn't give them the weapon technology, just the bombs after the fact. She also stops the second it became clear it was not a defensive war. Foolish, but not treason.

Duck-I-Says posted...

Murder
* Tuvix - already covered

No. Letting Tuvix live would have been murder of two people. The whole thing was controversial and she didn't exactly get excited about it like everyone likes to pretend.

Duck-I-Says posted...

* Agreeing to hand over Captain Ransom to an enemy for execution

IIRC, she had no choice in that. It was him or their ship.

Duck-I-Says posted...

* Putting an Equinox crew member in the cargo bay, tied to a chair at the mercy of an alien species that wanted to kill him. She was willing to see her gestapo tactics all the way to his death given that Chakotay had to storm in with a phaser against her orders to stop them.

Remember when Picard attempted to use a child as a bio-weapon against the Borg? Or when Sisko attempted to 'salt the earth' by poisoning an entire planet just to get the Maquis to surrender? No, that's right. Because you like them.

Duck-I-Says posted...

* Using Admiral Janeway's future tech to get passed the borg transwarp hub defenses

Again, sort of debatable on that one. Was a violation, but she actually tried to stop Admiral Janeway's plan. Janeway strongarmed her into it.

Duck-I-Says posted...

* Keeping the mobile emitter

Would have been much more heroic if she gave it to the Kazon, right?

Duck-I-Says posted...

* Gave holodeck technology to the Hirogen

Not against the Prime Directive. They are allowed to share technology, just not technology that is used for weapons. Also, again, her crew is top priority. It was the only way to secure peace.

Duck-I-Says posted...

* Abetting slavery/genocide - After the Hirogen accidentally created sentient holograms, she helped them hunt down their former slaves for the purposes of execution.

... Until she realized they were sentient. Just like how Data and Picard were totally okay with the mining drones being slaves until they realized they were sentient.

Duck-I-Says posted...

* Told her crew the specifics of the Omega Directive, something serious enough to actually supersede the Prime Directive.

Actually, she didn't tell anyone until she needed them.

Duck-I-Says posted...

* Erasing the doctor's memory because of his emotional break down

Mostly because he would have effectively died if she didn't.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

You've basically summed up the major problem with Janeway, though.

In theory, she was a strong character, and her actress was great, but the writers could never really decide on what sort of character she was actually supposed to be, so it's almost like there's 3-4 different Janeways and you're never entirely sure when an episode starts which one is going to show up that week.

So one episode she'll absolutely refuse to break the Prime Directive in even the most minor of ways, and then two weeks later she'll murder her way through what might have otherwise been a relatively diplomatic situation.

I agree.

My problem is mostly that people make her out to be a vicious sociopath, when in reality, she was just someone completely out of her element. Not only that, her entire crew was in danger regularly, and she had to watch them die several times in several different gruesome scenarios with literally no one to replace them. That, in my mind, creates a little wiggle room.

More importantly, the captains you guys like have actually committed just as serious crimes, it's just that they were more consistently written and therefore more likable, so fans give them a pass.

Sahuagin posted...

I don't know if I think it's the best, but when I watched some of it like a decade ago I was generally impressed by the plot of each episode, at least in terms of drama and action. TNG maybe had a lot more philosophically interesting stories, but were often a bit weaker in other areas or even felt a bit silly (definitely not always). (and then, maybe that's how it's supposed to be; that certainly fits the original series: a little silly but still philosophically interesting)

I agree. It's not my favorite series, but individual episodes are great.

I was actually really struck the other day when I saw a list of 10 top episodes and 10 worst episodes of all Star Trek. People laughed because Voyager didn't get 1 in the top 10, yet had only 1 episode in the bottom 10. It was basically consistently entertaining, but it had three main problems;
- It was a show that excelled at episodic adventures, but was set up as serialized drama.
- Inconsistent writing.
- SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH wasted potential.

Dash_Harber posted...

And if she had gotten the entire crew killed by both sides, everyone would be dead.

Which is something a Starfleet captain needs to be prepared to do over committing treason and attempted genocide. Other captains were prepared to self-destruct the ship over much smaller things. Besides they could have also gone around Borg space (they talked about that in the episode), but she decided she'd rather commit treason to save a few years.


Dash_Harber posted...

No. Letting Tuvix live would have been murder of two people. The whole thing was controversial and she didn't exactly get excited about it like everyone likes to pretend.

What the hell kind of backwards logic is this? He was created by an accident, not deliberate killing. They were already gone at that point. She revived the two other crewmembers by literally murdering a new and sentient life form. That isn't the slightest bit comparable. She murdered him, even the doctor refused to participate. There's no way around it.

Dash_Harber posted...

IIRC, she had no choice in that. It was him or their ship.

She didn't try very hard to avoid murder even Tuvok called her irrational and insisted they could find another solution to which Janeway threatened to relieve him of duty. If she wants to commit murder to achieve her goals then she needs to be prepared to face the consequences when she gets home.

Dash_Harber posted...

Remember when Picard attempted to use a child as a bio-weapon against the Borg? Or when Sisko attempted to 'salt the earth' by poisoning an entire planet just to get the Maquis to surrender? No, that's right. Because you like them.

Whataboutism. That aside, Picard didn't actually do it. It reflects poorly on him that he seriously considered it, but there aren't thought crimes in the Federation. Actions are punished.

Sisko absolutely should have lost his commission and gone on trial for using a dirty bomb on an inhabited planet, so nope that argument doesn't work against me. I agree.


Dash_Harber posted...

Again, sort of debatable on that one. Was a violation, but she actually tried to stop Admiral Janeway's plan. Janeway strongarmed her into it.

Umm not really. Admiral Janeway basically told her to ignore the prime directive and Captain Janeway objected briefly but when she realized she would have to make personal sacrifices on the trip home she acquiesced immediately. They then installed the future tech and flew right in.

Dash_Harber posted...

Would have been much more heroic if she gave it to the Kazon, right?

What? That's completely random. She could have given it back to Captain Braxton when they met him again literally at the end of the episode which is exactly what they should have done.

Dash_Harber posted...

Not against the Prime Directive. They are allowed to share technology, just not technology that is used for weapons. Also, again, her crew is top priority. It was the only way to secure peace.

Not true: http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Prime_Directive

"Providing knowledge of technologies or science"

They would likely need permission from the Federation government to trade technology. Ironically, even Janeway expresses regret at one point for giving them the technology, but only after it bit her in the ass. She's only concerned about such things when they effect her negatively.

Dash_Harber posted...

... Until she realized they were sentient. Just like how Data and Picard were totally okay with the mining drones being slaves until they realized they were sentient.

Nope the Doctor told her outright and she ordered him to shut up and then continued pursuing them ("You wouldn't even be considering this if they were flesh and blood!"). I'm not sure how you missed that, The Doctor defected because of that and it was a large part of the storyline.


Dash_Harber posted...

Mostly because he would have effectively died if she didn't.

Except later after Seven told Janway she had violated his rights letting him work through it is exactly what they did and he got through it.

Duck-I-Says posted...

Which is something a Starfleet captain needs to be prepared to do over committing treason and attempted genocide. Other captains were prepared to self-destruct the ship over much smaller things.

After evacuating them in escape pods, with twenty Starfleet ships a few hours away to rescue the escape pods. If Janeway did that, they'd be so, so screwed.

Duck-I-Says posted...

What the hell kind of backwards logic is this? He was created by an accident. She revived the two other crewmembers by literally murdering a new and sentient life form. That isn't the slightest bit comparable. She murdered him, even the doctor refused to participate. There's no way around it.

This is such bullshit, though. It was presented as controversial for both sides. She had to save Tuvok and Neelix. Even if there is an accident, you don't just throw your hands up in the air and go, "oh well, I assume everyone is dead and I could save these two people, but no, I'll just let them die because it's an accident". I'm not saying she made the right or wrong call, I'm saying it's pretty fucking grey either way.

Duck-I-Says posted...

That aside, Picard didn't actually do it. It reflects poorly on him that he seriously considered it, but there aren't thought crimes in the Federation. Actions are punished.

She literally stopped the whole thing the second it was apparent it was a mistake. Just like Picard.

Duck-I-Says posted...

Not true: http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Prime_Directive

"Providing knowledge of technologies or science"

They would likely need permission from the Federation government to trade technology. Ironically, even Janeway expresses regret at one point for giving them the technology, but only after it bit her in the ass. She's only concerned about such things when they effect her negatively.

Such interference includes introducing superior knowledge, strength, or technology to a world whose society is incapable of handling such advantages wisely.

Sort of missing the point there.

Duck-I-Says posted...

Nope the Doctor told her outright and she ordered him to shut up and then continued pursuing them. I'm not sure how you missed that, The Doctor defected because of that and it was a large part of the storyline.

Jesus, there is no need to be condescending.

Duck-I-Says posted...

Except later after Seven told Janway she had violated his rights letting him work through it is exactly what they did and he got through it.

... and in the meantime, how many crew related accidents would go untreated because she can't fucking replace her medic?

I'm not saying she always made the right decision. She fucked up and Picard definitely deserved to be an Admiral before her, however, most of those decisions were made under extreme duress that no other captain would have to deal with.

90% of it came down to poor writing, honestly.

Dash_Harber posted...

After evacuating them in escape pods, with twenty Starfleet ships a few hours away to rescue the escape pods. If Janeway did that, they'd be so, so screwed.

Not always. Picard almost blew up the ship with all hands when Nagilum commandeered it.

Dash_Harber posted...

This is such bullshit, though. It was presented as controversial for both sides. She had to save Tuvok and Neelix.

She did not, actually, have to resurrect two dead crewmembers. She chose to with a blood sacrifice. It would be morally equivalent to if Q had allowed Picard to resurrect Tasha in exchange for killing Worf.

Dash_Harber posted...

She literally stopped the whole thing the second it was apparent it was a mistake. Just like Picard.

She didn't stop anything, Chakotay had to storm in with a rifle to save him at the last second. She was going to let him die.

Dash_Harber posted...

Such interference includes introducing superior knowledge, strength, or technology to a world whose society is incapable of handling such advantages wisely.

You mean like a society that would use the technology create lifeforms in order to use them for bloodsport? What part of Hirogen society makes you think they'd live up to Federation standards for trading advanced technology?

Dash_Harber posted...

Jesus, there is no need to be condescending.

Dash_Harber posted...

No, that's right. Because you like them.

That was pretty condescending especially since you didn't know my viewpoint on it.



Dash_Harber posted...

... and in the meantime, how many crew related accidents would go untreated because she can't fucking replace her medic?

Irrelevant to the morality of the situation. You're arguing that it's pragmatic to violate his rights in order to get him back on the line which your free to do, but it doesn't improve the moral optics of it. Hell there was a very relevant episode in TNG on a similar subject (see: Measure of a Man).

Dash_Harber posted...

90% of it came down to poor writing, honestly.

Well yeah, we agree on that.

Duck-I-Says posted...

Not always. Picard almost blew up the ship with all hands when Nagilum commandeered it.

Fair enough, but the point is, most of the time, there was back up and no alternative.

Duck-I-Says posted...

She did not, actually, have to resurrect two dead crewmembers. She chose to with a blood sacrifice. It would be morally equivalent to if Q had allowed Picard to resurrect Tasha in exchange for killing Worf.

No it wouldn't. It'd be like if Worf died and Q came to Picard and a creature named Wosha showed up and Q was like, "Hey, I can bring back Worf and Tasha Yar by splitting Wosha". They also didn't die, they were still a part of Tuvix.

Tuvix wasn't born, didn't have a family, and was basically a scientific anomaly. Just because the crew liked him, didn't make him any more of a person. There is no 'it's like' equivalent, because no where in real life do two people cease to exist to create a new person.

Duck-I-Says posted...

She didn't stop anything, Chakotay had to storm in with a rifle to save him at the last second. She was going to let him die.

I have to watch it again. I seem to remember Seven commandeering the ship after she was out of commission, and she was unconscious when they realized that the Borgs were the aggressors.

Duck-I-Says posted...

You mean like a society that would use the technology create lifeforms in order to use them for bloodsport? What part of Hirogen society makes you think they'd live up to Federation standards for trading advanced technology?

So now you take a moral stance against holodecks being used for violence? I guess Worf, O'Brien, Bashir, the Dahar Master, Barclay, LeForge, Paris, Kim, etc all should be charged as well?

Another important thing here is context. The species nomadic hunting philosophy was literally leading to their extinction. Hindsight is great, but there was literally no way that Voyager could have known the holograms would become sentient (at least not more than any of the other crews any of the other times it happened). Had one of the planets the crews saved turned around and committed genocide (like any of the 80 billion rescue missions during TNG), Picard would not be responsible, even if they used technology to do it.

They trade technology all the time on the show (DS9 in particular, because they were part trade hub and part embassy). The point of that rule is so that Federation ships don't just land on any primitive backwater and arm them all with phase rifles.

Duck-I-Says posted...

That was pretty condescending especially since you didn't know my viewpoint on it.

I actually didn't mean to direct that at you, but I do apologize. That did sound condescending. My apologies.

Duck-I-Says posted...

Irrelevant to the morality of the situation. You're arguing that it's pragmatic to violate his rights in order to get him back on the line which your free to do, but it doesn't improve the moral optics of it. Hell there was a very relevant episode in TNG on a similar subject (see: Measure of a Man).

It really wasn't very close to Measure of a Man. It was a bad decision in hindsight, sure, but at the time that it happened, IIRC they literally believed that it would kill him (destroy his matrix). Also, they have wiped memories before (such as Data's child friend he was communicating with on radio that the Enterprise broke the Prime Directive to save).

LtCommanderData posted...

From a pragmatic standpoint it makes sense that it would be a more Starfleet than Maquis crew. It is their ship, they outnumber the Maquis something like 3-to-1 and they are more disciplined, organized and professional. I am not really complaining about the direction of the crew hierarchy in that regard, I just wanted a lot more friction as the Maquis crew struggled to assimilate with the happy-go-lucky dandies of Starfleet.

It should have been a huge part of the first few seasons and we should have seen real growth on both sides as they both adjusted to each other's presence.

Yeah, but when you consider the main complaint of the Maquis was that their home planets were basically "sold out" by the Federation, and now this particular group was halfway across the galaxy from home and completely disconnected from overarching politics, most of their reasons to be opposed to the Federation were negated.

Doubly so when you realize that at least some Maquis WERE ex-Federation , so they weren't inherently anarchic, disorganized, or resistant to hierarchy. They were just people who disagreed with official policy and were trying to defend themselves against what they saw as aggressive invaders (ie, the Cardassians).

On top of which, even when they WERE still back in the Alpha Quadrant and screwing with the Cardassians, there were a number of Federation operatives that were also pro-Maquis who were willing to help them (up to covertly supplying the Maquis with contraband weapons on the sly), so the Maquis already had a history of being able to cooperate with the Federation when it was in their best interests. It might be fair to say that, while the average Maquis would dislike the core Federation policy-making leadership, they weren't overly averse to Federation rank-and-file.

I'm not saying it was handled well as presented, but my assumption is that those were the grounding assumptions behind the idea, and why they never really felt like the show should revolve around constant conflict between the two sub-groups.


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ParanoidObsessive posted...

I'm not saying it was handled well as presented, but my assumption is that those were the grounding assumptions behind the idea, and why they never really felt like the show should revolve around constant conflict between the two sub-groups.

Yeah, you make some good points, but more disparate groups have historically worked together when it's a matter of life and death. People tend to put less emphasis on their morals when it's survival. There were a few fake out episodes where they showed the Maquis taking over, and there was always some excuse as to why it was too difficult for them.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

Yeah, but when you consider the main complaint of the Maquis was that their home planets were basically "sold out" by the Federation, and now this particular group was halfway across the galaxy from home and completely disconnected from overarching politics, most of their reasons to be opposed to the Federation were negated.

I tend to think they would still harbor some level of resentment towards the Federation for abandoning them to the Cardassians and then later siding with the Cardassians against them, though. It is not something that needs to be overarching through the whole series, but at least give me some acknowledgement of it.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

Doubly so when you realize that at least some Maquis WERE ex-Federation

Only two as far as we know, right? Chakotay and Tom were ex-Federation turned Maquis. B'elanna was an academy dropout and I don't think we're given any information about the rest at all as far as their origins.

Speaking of Chakotay and Tom what the hell happened to their rivalry? In the first episode they absolutely despise each other and that disappeared entirely by episode 2. Did Janeway beat the aggression out of them as an initiation right to join her command staff?

LtCommanderData posted...

later siding with the Cardassians against them, though.

That's a bit of a stretch. They were pretty hostile towards each other the whole time.

LtCommanderData posted...

It is not something that needs to be overarching through the whole series, but at least give me some acknowledgement of it.

It was. There were a couple different episodes that touched on it (Tuvok creating a holographic program on how to handle a Maquis uprising, B'elanna hearing about all her friends being wiped out, the Maquis recruits hating federation life and having to be trained by Tuvok). It wasn't used enough, though, if you ask me.

LtCommanderData posted...

Only two as far as we know, right? Chakotay and Tom were ex-Federation turned Maquis. B'elanna was an academy dropout and I don't think we're given any information about the rest at all as far as their origins.

They imply that a lot of them are, since most of them have skills that only someone serving on star ship would have, and they are all from or have ties to federation colonies.

LtCommanderData posted...

Speaking of Chakotay and Tom what the hell happened to their rivalry? In the first episode they absolutely despise each other and that disappeared entirely by episode 2. Did Janeway beat the aggression out of them as an initiation right to join her command staff?

They had some more rivalry ongoing for about the first half of the series. I think it actually ended when during the mutli-episode story arch where Tom kept acting out and it came to a head when Tom and Chakotay almost came to blows, leading to Tom leaving the ship, joining the Kazon, and then turning out to be a double agent.

Also, speaking of Chakotay, how laughably racist is his character? Pretty damn racist.

It is not a stretch at all. The entire issue is that the Federation had a treaty with the Cardassian ceding border worlds, later turned Maquis worlds, to them and the Federation officially condemned the Maquis and cooperated with Cardassian efforts to apprehend them. They absolutely sided with the Cardassians.

Dash_Harber posted...

They had some more rivalry ongoing for about the first half of the series. I think it actually ended when during the mutli-episode story arch where Tom kept acting out and it came to a head when Tom and Chakotay almost came to blows, leading to Tom leaving the ship, joining the Kazon, and then turning out to be a double agent.

That whole incident was an act to give Tom's departure credibility to the leak, so it hardly lends credence to them still having a strained relationship.

LtCommanderData posted...

It is not a stretch at all. The entire issue is that the Federation had a treaty with the Cardassian ceding border worlds, later turned Maquis worlds, to them and the Federation officially condemned the Maquis and cooperated with Cardassian efforts to apprehend them. They absolutely sided with the Cardassians.

I'm just saying it was controversial. They put in enough scenes of Starfleet personal discussing it that it wasn't exactly a clear cut issue.

LtCommanderData posted...

That whole incident was an act to give Tom's departure credibility to the leak, so it hardly lends credence to them still having a strained relationship.

Yes, I know, that's what I said. That was the last time it was even referenced, and after that they appeared to have gotten over their differences.