Current Events > tfw quantum mechanics contradicts relativity

(+) Yeah! (+)

wtf why isnt this shit figured out

Because you know nothing and cannot test the truth in the scientific method
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they work for their respective scales at least
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Introducing people to Quantum Mechanics is kind of like in the movies where our Protagonist is introduced into a whole new world of fantasy or fiction, like Harry Potter. Truly a "Forget Everything You Know" scenario, because the most consistent thing about Quantum mechanics is that they will violate every intuition you have.

The biggest issue with investigating Quantum Mechanics is that direct measurements and experimentation at this scale is often theoretically impossible because the theories describe an existence of purely probabalistic wave-functions instead of the apparent deterministic nature of the non-quantum scale. How the universe transitions from this probablistic state to a deterministic nature is perhaps the greatest obstacle standing in the way of theorists, though the many existing problems arising from the Standard Model certainly don't pale in comparison (Such as the many assymetries of the Universe).
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Wait so how does quantum suicide work

Will I always not die if I try to shoot myself or is that a misinterpretation
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answer me physicists
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e=mc2
uncertainty principle

I'm an expert on relativity and quantum mechanics, ask me anything (preferably in a format that I can copy and paste to google).

The thing is, we got different laws of physics depending on what scale of universe we are looking at.
Since we live in one scale, we are stupid enough to believe that the whole universe must follow the same rules.
If we zoom in, we got quantum mechanics that work different.
If we zoom out, we discover that the universe doesnt follow our logic, so we make up things like Dark Energy to make it work with our logic.
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Foppe posted...

The thing is, we got different laws of physics depending on what scale of universe we are looking at.
Since we live in one scale, we are stupid enough to believe that the whole universe must follow the same rules.
If we zoom in, we got quantum mechanics that work different.
If we zoom out, we discover that the universe doesnt follow our logic, so we make up things like Dark Energy to make it work with our logic.

The thing is we don't have different laws for different scales we have different levels of understanding for different scales. There is a universal theory that will arise eventually

Source: literally every scientific theory ever
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josifrees posted...

Foppe posted...

The thing is, we got different laws of physics depending on what scale of universe we are looking at.
Since we live in one scale, we are stupid enough to believe that the whole universe must follow the same rules.
If we zoom in, we got quantum mechanics that work different.
If we zoom out, we discover that the universe doesnt follow our logic, so we make up things like Dark Energy to make it work with our logic.

The thing is we don't have different laws for different scales we have different levels of understanding for different scales. There is a universal theory that will arise eventually

Source: literally every scientific theory ever

We believe that we can explain the whole universe with one theory.
Perhaps we can in the future, perhaps not.
Right now we cant and we got different ones for different scales.
That is fact, not a theory.
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Pogo_Marimo posted...

The biggest issue with investigating Quantum Mechanics is that direct measurements and experimentation at this scale is often theoretically impossible because the theories describe an existence of purely probabalistic wave-functions instead of the apparent deterministic nature of the non-quantum scale. How the universe transitions from this probablistic state to a deterministic nature is perhaps the greatest obstacle standing in the way of theorists, though the many existing problems arising from the Standard Model certainly don't pale in comparison (Such as the many assymetries of the Universe).

its not just that either

its also that literally taking a measurement (interacting with the quantum system) has more impact on your measurement result than the system's state
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Doe posted...

Wait so how does quantum suicide work

Will I always not die if I try to shoot myself or is that a misinterpretation

misinterpretation
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Maybe our dreams are a glimpse into our lives I the other dimensions, maaan
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Doe posted...

Wait so how does quantum suicide work

Will I always not die if I try to shoot myself or is that a misinterpretation

If you try to shoot yourself with a gun that's rigged to fire or not based on the state of a particle in a quantum superposition, you will experience continuity of consciousness (from your perspective, not dying) assuming the Many Worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics is correct. If you're willing to risk it by shooting yourself with this hypothetical gun a few hundred times, you'll either end up in a timeline where you've just made a major breakthrough in physics, or you'll die.
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But shouldn't there still be a 50/50 shot of my consciousness from my perspective ceasing to exist
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Doe posted...

But shouldn't there still be a 50/50 shot of my consciousness from my perspective ceasing to exist

The concept of self is basically an illusion.
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Wot
Elaborate
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CircleOfManias posted...

Doe posted...

Wait so how does quantum suicide work

Will I always not die if I try to shoot myself or is that a misinterpretation

If you try to shoot yourself with a gun that's rigged to fire or not based on the state of a particle in a quantum superposition, you will experience continuity of consciousness (from your perspective, not dying) assuming the Many Worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics is correct. If you're willing to risk it by shooting yourself with this hypothetical gun a few hundred times, you'll either end up in a timeline where you've just made a major breakthrough in physics, or you'll die.

Neat. Where do I sign up?
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Doe posted...

Wait so how does quantum suicide work

Will I always not die if I try to shoot myself or is that a misinterpretation

iirc quantum suicide is essentially a tiein with a multiverse theory, and when you pull the trigger, you die but your consciousness moves to another realm where that didnt take place


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_suicide_and_immortality
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Ulyanyx posted...

Doe posted...

Wait so how does quantum suicide work

Will I always not die if I try to shoot myself or is that a misinterpretation

iirc quantum suicide is essentially a tiein with a multiverse theory, and when you pull the trigger, you die but your consciousness moves to another realm where that didnt take place


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_suicide_and_immortality

Sounds awesome. Does it work with other forms of dying?
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ITT babby's intro to physics

I don't know if I'd place too much faith in the whole quantum suicide and immortality thing
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ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

Ulyanyx posted...

Doe posted...

Wait so how does quantum suicide work

Will I always not die if I try to shoot myself or is that a misinterpretation

iirc quantum suicide is essentially a tiein with a multiverse theory, and when you pull the trigger, you die but your consciousness moves to another realm where that didnt take place


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_suicide_and_immortality

Sounds awesome. Does it work with other forms of dying?

No, it doesn't work with any form of dying due to decoherence in a non-isolated system.

Essentially it is only a thought-experiment.
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Doe posted...

Wait so how does quantum suicide work

Will I always not die if I try to shoot myself or is that a misinterpretation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-wAaBoW408
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And I thought religion was nonsensical and out of touch with reality XD
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Foppe posted...

josifrees posted...

Foppe posted...

The thing is, we got different laws of physics depending on what scale of universe we are looking at.
Since we live in one scale, we are stupid enough to believe that the whole universe must follow the same rules.
If we zoom in, we got quantum mechanics that work different.
If we zoom out, we discover that the universe doesnt follow our logic, so we make up things like Dark Energy to make it work with our logic.

The thing is we don't have different laws for different scales we have different levels of understanding for different scales. There is a universal theory that will arise eventually

Source: literally every scientific theory ever

We believe that we can explain the whole universe with one theory.
Perhaps we can in the future, perhaps not.
Right now we cant and we got different ones for different scales.
That is fact, not a theory.

I don't know what it's called but I call this the "infinite scale theory" and new scales are always being created and basically there is no end to how large something can become but only how small. This way not only would the universe expand but whatever is larger than the universe would do the same and with continued expansion you would have scales being formed over and over which would change the perspective of each observer of the new scale when considering the size of all of the other scales that currently exist to their knowledge.

For example, we have the atomic scale, our own familiar scale, and then the universal scale. Well what if there are others larger? Then, in comparison our universe may seem to some observer elsewhere to be atomic. I mean our universe is mostly empty space just like atoms are.
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DawkinsNumber4 posted...

Foppe posted...

josifrees posted...

Foppe posted...

The thing is, we got different laws of physics depending on what scale of universe we are looking at.
Since we live in one scale, we are stupid enough to believe that the whole universe must follow the same rules.
If we zoom in, we got quantum mechanics that work different.
If we zoom out, we discover that the universe doesnt follow our logic, so we make up things like Dark Energy to make it work with our logic.

The thing is we don't have different laws for different scales we have different levels of understanding for different scales. There is a universal theory that will arise eventually

Source: literally every scientific theory ever

We believe that we can explain the whole universe with one theory.
Perhaps we can in the future, perhaps not.
Right now we cant and we got different ones for different scales.
That is fact, not a theory.

I don't know what it's called but I call this the "infinite scale theory" and new scales are always being created and basically there is no end to how large something can become but only how small. This way not only would the universe expand but whatever is larger than the universe would do the same and with continued expansion you would have scales being formed over and over which would change the perspective of each observer of the new scale when considering the size of all of the other scales that currently exist to their knowledge.

For example, we have the atomic scale, our own familiar scale, and then the universal scale. Well what if there are others larger? Then, in comparison our universe may seem to some observer elsewhere to be atomic. I mean our universe is mostly empty space just like atoms are.

Yes, but the difference between what you're speculating and what physicists actually do is that the systems and models physicists describe are actually observable. All kinds of things are possible outside of our observable capabilities, an infinite number of things as a matter of fact, but speculating on them is not particularpy useful unless you can observe them.
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Doe posted...

Wait so how does quantum suicide work

Will I always not die if I try to shoot myself or is that a misinterpretation

Quantum immortality.

The idea is that every configuration the universe can take exists in a Universal phase space. You're just following one specific path along with an infinite ensemble of other "you"s. Some of these "you's" are wildly different, while others are exactly like you except for one different thing that happens to them in the future that causes them to veer off.

(an example of a phase space would be like the color picker on MS Paint. Everywhere you click, you'll get a different value in the RGB field boxes. So the palette of many colors is a representation of every value that the RGB boxes can take. Now apply that to finding all the different values the entire universe can take).

Statistically, there are versions of you in these alternate worlds who are the luckiest person in existence. They are so lucky that highly improbable things happen to them all the time. One version of you could flip coins, and they always land on heads. There might be a version of you that can point any loaded gun to their head and the gun will always not go off. And then there are some who are impossible to kill no matter what anyone tries because their worldline says they were meant to die of old age.

This is where Quantum Immortality comes in.

I must emphasize that this is a thought experiment connected to a conjecture called "Many Worlds Theory". Although it has a lot of younger physicists who are adherents, it is still controversial. The standard interpretation of QM is still the Copenhagen Interpretation which doesn't allow Quantum Immortality because these co-existing probabilities don't happen at macroscopic scales (the everyday world we experience).
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Pogo_Marimo posted...

I don't know what it's called but I call this the "infinite scale theory"

This is called "The Fractal Flow" and it's a feature of Alan Guth's Theory of Eternal Inflation. A fractal is a dimension that is not represented as an integer. The ratio of the log of an object's scale to the log of the object's mass determines the fractal dimension. Fractals are the antithesis to Newton-Leibniz Calculus based on limits. In Calculus, increasing the scale increases an objects smoothness. With Fractals, the degree of roughness of the object changes based on the scale.
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Pogo_Marimo posted...

DawkinsNumber4 posted...

Foppe posted...

josifrees posted...

Foppe posted...

The thing is, we got different laws of physics depending on what scale of universe we are looking at.
Since we live in one scale, we are stupid enough to believe that the whole universe must follow the same rules.
If we zoom in, we got quantum mechanics that work different.
If we zoom out, we discover that the universe doesnt follow our logic, so we make up things like Dark Energy to make it work with our logic.

The thing is we don't have different laws for different scales we have different levels of understanding for different scales. There is a universal theory that will arise eventually

Source: literally every scientific theory ever

We believe that we can explain the whole universe with one theory.
Perhaps we can in the future, perhaps not.
Right now we cant and we got different ones for different scales.
That is fact, not a theory.

I don't know what it's called but I call this the "infinite scale theory" and new scales are always being created and basically there is no end to how large something can become but only how small. This way not only would the universe expand but whatever is larger than the universe would do the same and with continued expansion you would have scales being formed over and over which would change the perspective of each observer of the new scale when considering the size of all of the other scales that currently exist to their knowledge.

For example, we have the atomic scale, our own familiar scale, and then the universal scale. Well what if there are others larger? Then, in comparison our universe may seem to some observer elsewhere to be atomic. I mean our universe is mostly empty space just like atoms are.

Yes, but the difference between what you're speculating and what physicists actually do is that the systems and models physicists describe are actually observable. All kinds of things are possible outside of our observable capabilities, an infinite number of things as a matter of fact, but speculating on them is not particularpy useful unless you can observe them.

Right now we observe the laws of physics being different on 3 different scales, just as another poster mentioned.
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BB mofo posted...

Pogo_Marimo posted...

I don't know what it's called but I call this the "infinite scale theory"

This is called "The Fractal Flow" and it's a feature of Alan Guth's Theory of Eternal Inflation. A fractal is a dimension that is not represented as an integer. The ratio of the log of an object's scale to the log of the object's mass determines the fractal dimension. Fractals are the antithesis to Newton-Leibniz Calculus based on limits. In Calculus, increasing the scale increases an objects smoothness. With Fractals, the degree of roughness of the object changes based on the scale.

So how legit is it?
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BB mofo posted...

Statistically, there are versions of you in these alternate worlds who are the luckiest person in existence. They are so lucky that highly improbable things happen to them all the time. One version of you could flip coins, and they always land on heads. There might be a version of you that can point any loaded gun to their head and the gun will always not go off. And then there are some who are impossible to kill no matter what anyone tries because their worldline says they were meant to die of old age.

Wheres the wildly successful version of me who discovered how to travel to alternate timelines and give me a million dollars? >_>
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DawkinsNumber4 posted...

So how legit is it?

2 Legit to Quit
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DawkinsNumber4 posted...

So how legit is it?

Eternal Inflation, and by extension Fractal Cosmology, is highly speculative. We know that the universe did undergo inflation, but that's about it. Even Alan Guth himself has wavered between rejecting Eternal Inflation and embracing it over the past three decades.
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BB mofo posted...

DawkinsNumber4 posted...

So how legit is it?

Eternal Inflation, and by extension Fractal Cosmology, is highly speculative. We know that the universe did undergo inflation, but that's about it. Even Alan Guth himself has wavered between rejecting Eternal Inflation and embracing it over the past three decades.

This is why I cannot discount it.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/largest-structure-universe-discovered-093416167.html

"The newly discovered LQC is so enormous, in fact, that theory predicts it shouldn't exist, researchers said. The quasar group appears to violate a widely accepted assumption known as the cosmological principle, which holds that the universe is essentially homogeneous when viewed at a sufficiently large scale.

Calculations suggest that structures larger than about 1.2 billion light-years should not exist, researchers said."
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DawkinsNumber4 posted...

Calculations suggest that structures larger than about 1.2 billion light-years should not exist, researchers said."

On a note, no less than John Archibald Wheeler criticized the Cosmological Principle and thought it was as close to religious faith as you can get in cosmology. Then again, he was in the extreme minority.

As for the Lyman-Alpha blobs, there is a suggestion that these structures are not as big as they look. Our galaxy might be on the outer edge of a supervoid. Light gets stretched and sped up due to gravitational lensing at the void's border, so it throws our measurements off slightly. These quasar groups might not be connected into large structures.

Another theory is that these large structures are caused by statistical anomalies in quantum fluctuations within the early universe just before inflation. This was when all points of the universe were still casually connected and could influence each other. The anomaly in temperature comes up in 1 out of 15 simulated models of our early universe. In statistical terms, that's pretty frequent.

In the end, the Cosmological Principle is not in danger despite these findings.
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Why does any of this shit exist smh
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Doe posted...

Why does any of this shit exist smh

because God

why did god tell people to dash the heads of babies on rocks
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BB mofo posted...

This was when all points of the universe were still casually connected and could influence each other.

Everything is still entangled and can influence everything else. That never changed. It is actually implied as well. I believe the question asked is "How entangled is everything?"
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DawkinsNumber4 posted...

Everything is still entangled and can influence everything else.

Causality and entanglement (Einsten-Podolsky-Rosen) are two different things.

No, it's not connected. This is because we reside in an expanding De-sitter space. In other words, we live in something resembling an inside out black hole where the center is held together by gravity, and everything outside is the event horizon. Everything outside this space is expanding away from us at 3 times the speed of light.

(In the future, all the galaxies that gravitationally interact with us will merge into one giant galaxy while all the light from outside our DeSitter space will red-shift into microwaves and disappear. Our ancestors will think the whole universe is a single galaxy floating in an infinite empty void.)

In fact, the Theory of inflation was a way to explain why the early universe did not collapse in on itself due to gravity. There was an inflaton field that permeated everything, and before gravity separated from the other three forces, this inflaton field caused the universe to instantly increase to a size where regions would no longer gravitationally effect each other. It also explains why the universe is so homogenous at extremely large scales (ie "The End to Greatness", where the universe looks smooth).
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Doe posted...

Why does any of this shit exist smh

Because of the double slit experiment. QM is trying to explain why one atom can go through both slits in a barrier, something that should be impossible. Because instruments showed that the atom never did split because the measurements (it's frequency) were the same throughout the experiment.

This is why the experiment is also nicknamed "The experiment that broke reality".
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BB mofo posted...

DawkinsNumber4 posted...

Everything is still entangled and can influence everything else.

Causality and entanglement (Einsten-Podolsky-Rosen) are two different things.

No, it's not connected. This is because we reside in an expanding De-sitter space. In other words, we live in something resembling an inside out black hole where the center is held together by gravity, and everything outside is the event horizon. Everything outside this space is expanding away from us at 3 times the speed of light.

(In the future, all the galaxies that gravitationally interact with us will merge into one giant galaxy while all the light from outside our DeSitter space will red-shift into microwaves and disappear. Our ancestors will think the whole universe is a single galaxy floating in an infinite empty void.)

In fact, the Theory of inflation was a way to explain why the early universe did not collapse in on itself due to gravity. There was an inflaton field that permeated everything, and before gravity separated from the other three forces, this inflaton field caused the universe to instantly increase to a size where regions would no longer gravitationally effect each other. It also explains why the universe is so homogenous at extremely large scales (ie "The End to Greatness", where the universe looks smooth).

How do you know the universe is actually an extremely large scale and not an extremely small scale? As in, why do you know that there are not unfathomable numbers of greater scales than our universe? At a large enough scale everything looks insignificant and homogeneous. Plus, can't we not even see 96% of our own universe? Why do we think that observing on a large scale that it would be smooth? If we are in a simulation could there not be any form of smoothing done through some other algorithm?
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DawkinsNumber4 posted...

How do you know the universe is actually an extremely large scale and not an extremely small scale? As in, why do you know that there are not unfathomable numbers of greater scales than our universe?

We don't know. The Cosmological Principal assumes the laws of physics and physical constants are the same even in the areas of the universe we see but are now causally disconnected from. At large scales, this should be seen as a smoothing of the visible universe. It's an assumption we have to make if we are able to do any theoretical science.

We have to assume the universe is playing "fair" with us. Yes it's faith, but the alternative is to throw our hands in the air and give up. Otherwise, we would never have a Theory of Everything.

Fractal Flow wasn't something that someone just came up with out of thin air. Someone found a particular solution to the inflation model and said, "hey, mathematically this inflation process could go on forever, and in fact there are regions that demand it should go on forever. Also, it resembles a fractal." They weren't looking for a multiverse, they just stumbled on the possibility while trying to explain an observed phenomenon. Kind of like what happened with Black holes and Einstein's equations.
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