Current Events > Liberderpians, do you think Price Gouging during a natural disaster is Good?

(+) Yeah! (+)

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/348750-white-house-price-gouging-of-harvey-victims-will-not-be-tolerated
http://www.newsweek.com/worst-examples-hurricane-harvey-price-gouging-657576
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/08/29/hurricane-harvey-price-gouging-concern-texas/614886001/

Without a strong government intervening significantly in the free market, price gouging - whether on a normal day, or on a horrific day - fucks us royally..
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No, and it's illegal in Texas anyways
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itachi15243 posted...

No, and it's illegal in Texas anyways

Thank goodness for big brother.
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But..but.. the market can be trusted to regulate itself.
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well, they can just go to another place that isn't gouging prices!! ... oh, the other places are underwater? err... *vanishes*
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https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2015/apr/16/venezuela-economy-black-market-milk-and-toilet-paper

No it's not good, but it's expected and understandable.
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AsianRobertLee posted...

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2015/apr/16/venezuela-economy-black-market-milk-and-toilet-paper

Thank for admitting that a country goes to shit when its government can't intervene in the market.
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Barenziah Boy Toy posted...

AsianRobertLee posted...

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2015/apr/16/venezuela-economy-black-market-milk-and-toilet-paper

Thank for admitting that a country goes to shit

Thanks for admitting that the socialist country of Venezuela has gone "to shit" as you put it.

AsianRobertLee posted...

Barenziah Boy Toy posted...

AsianRobertLee posted...

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2015/apr/16/venezuela-economy-black-market-milk-and-toilet-paper

Thank for admitting that a country goes to shit

Thanks for admitting that the socialist country of Venezuela has gone "to shit" as you put it.

because of American interference in their democracy
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Chávez
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AsianRobertLee posted...

Thanks for admitting that the socialist country of Venezuela has gone "to shit" as you put it.

Yes, a lot of countries suck at implementing socialism. It's very difficult for shitty ppl to do difficult things.
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Barenziah Boy Toy posted...

AsianRobertLee posted...

Thanks for admitting that the socialist country of Venezuela has gone "to shit" as you put it.

Yes, a lot of countries suck at implementing socialism. It's very difficult for shitty ppl to do difficult things.

especially when the US funds counterrevolutionary groups, kidnaps or tries to assassinate the leaders, and installs fascist dictators in their stead
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No, I don't think it's ok.
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Imagine literally arguing that destroying the economy is a good thing.

When supply is disrupted while demand skyrockets, prices MUST go up.
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darkjedilink posted...

Imagine literally arguing that destroying the economy is a good thing.

When supply is disrupted while demand skyrockets, prices MUST go up.

are you implying that the US or even the Texan economy is so fragile that it can't handle intervention?

Barenziah Boy Toy posted...

AsianRobertLee posted...

Thanks for admitting that the socialist country of Venezuela has gone "to shit" as you put it.

Yes, a lot of countries suck at implementing socialism. It's very difficult for shitty ppl to do difficult things.

Thanks for admitting that Socialists are shitty people.
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treewojima posted...

darkjedilink posted...

Imagine literally arguing that destroying the economy is a good thing.

When supply is disrupted while demand skyrockets, prices MUST go up.

are you implying that the US or even the Texan economy is so fragile that it can't handle intervention?

All economies are fragile, because of intervention.
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darkjedilink posted...

All economies are fragile, because of intervention.

lol

What if their business model anticipated climate change events and was designed and engineered specifically to capitalize on it instead of literally going under water?

I'm not arguing for it btw, rationing should be done over rate hikes, after all we do live in a society after all, but at some point the "fuck you I need mine" mentality needs to come into play.
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darkjedilink posted...

Thanks for admitting that Socialists are shitty people.

We're all shitty compared to actual Socialists.
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Barenziah Boy Toy posted...

darkjedilink posted...

Thanks for admitting that Socialists are shitty people.

We're all shitty compared to actual Socialists.

You mean, actual socialists like Mao and Che Guevara?
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the free market has nothing to do with the natural disaster that took place. the moment you introduce catastrophic events like that hurricane, you're no longer operating a free enterprise.

pretty shameful and embarrassing that you lot are being this dishonest

FLUFFYGERM posted...

the free market has nothing to do with the natural disaster that took place. the moment you introduce catastrophic events like that hurricane, you're no longer operating a free enterprise.

pretty shameful and embarrassing that you lot are being this dishonest

The free market can't account for externalities?
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A_Good_Boy posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

the free market has nothing to do with the natural disaster that took place. the moment you introduce catastrophic events like that hurricane, you're no longer operating a free enterprise.

pretty shameful and embarrassing that you lot are being this dishonest

The free market can't account for externalities?

this is as stupid as asking if the free market can account for a meteor wiping out the means of production and the market supply chain

Name calling is always a good way to initiate honest dialogue.

https://fee.org/articles/its-only-gouging-when-they-do-it/
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FLUFFYGERM posted...

A_Good_Boy posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

the free market has nothing to do with the natural disaster that took place. the moment you introduce catastrophic events like that hurricane, you're no longer operating a free enterprise.

pretty shameful and embarrassing that you lot are being this dishonest

The free market can't account for externalities?

this is as stupid as asking if the free market can account for a meteor wiping out the means of production and the market supply chain

Do meteor strikes have the same rate of occurrence as hurricanes?
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FLUFFYGERM posted...

this is as stupid as asking if the free market can account for a meteor wiping out the means of production and the market supply chain

You DO realize that we have a government plan trying to deal with meteor strikes, right?
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uh, one of the key arguments against the flood insurance program (and other forms of aid, depending on who is arguing) is that it incentivizes building up in areas that would otherwise be abandoned due to natural disasters

so maybe a free market would handle flood mitigation better by not insulating people from the costs of living in areas where floods need to be mitigated
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A_Good_Boy posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

the free market has nothing to do with the natural disaster that took place. the moment you introduce catastrophic events like that hurricane, you're no longer operating a free enterprise.

pretty shameful and embarrassing that you lot are being this dishonest

The free market can't account for externalities?

No more or less so than a regulated one, since you can't change the concept of supply and demand.
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A_Good_Boy posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

A_Good_Boy posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

the free market has nothing to do with the natural disaster that took place. the moment you introduce catastrophic events like that hurricane, you're no longer operating a free enterprise.

pretty shameful and embarrassing that you lot are being this dishonest

The free market can't account for externalities?

this is as stupid as asking if the free market can account for a meteor wiping out the means of production and the market supply chain

Do meteor strikes have the same rate of occurrence as hurricanes?

irrelevant to the point

Barenziah Boy Toy posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

this is as stupid as asking if the free market can account for a meteor wiping out the means of production and the market supply chain

You DO realize that we have a government plan trying to deal with meteor strikes, right?

irrelevant to the point

People who are against "price gouging" are people who have no understanding of economics, particularly how prices are determined by supply and demand.
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darkjedilink posted...

No more or less so than a regulated one, since you can't change the concept of supply and demand.

what does that have to do with accounting for externalities?
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really waiting for one of our hardcore free market advocates like Mal_Fet to come in here and defend this
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Sativa_Rose posted...

People who are against "price gouging" are people who have no understanding of economics, particularly how prices are determined by supply and demand.

and people who firmly believe in "capitalism" (with no regulation) are people who have no understanding of the real world.
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Sativa_Rose posted...

People who are against "price gouging" are people who have no understanding of economics, particularly how prices are determined by supply and demand.

Does your understanding of economics begin and end with supply and demand?
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A_Good_Boy posted...

Sativa_Rose posted...

People who are against "price gouging" are people who have no understanding of economics, particularly how prices are determined by supply and demand.

Does your understanding of economics begin and end with supply and demand?

Nope, but it's pretty damn important, given it's what determines prices in the marketplace
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Giant_Aspirin posted...

Sativa_Rose posted...

People who are against "price gouging" are people who have no understanding of economics, particularly how prices are determined by supply and demand.

and people who firmly believe in "capitalism" (with no regulation) are people who have no understanding of the real world.

Strawman, no one said they believed in "capitalism" (with no regulation)
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when a meteor strikes and wipes out the entire supply chain in a region, that region is no longer playing by any rules, and certainly no longer playing by free enterprise rules. one of the main tenets of capitalism is that competition enters when profits are high and lowers prices until an equilibrium is achieved. new competitors can't enter the market when there is no longer a market due to the natural disaster.

what we see with price gouging is struggling gas stations realizing that they won't get any shipments of new gas, and trying to ride out the destruction by stashing away money desperately.

finding studies that show the impact of price gouging laws is pretty hard in practice
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Sativa_Rose posted...

Giant_Aspirin posted...

Sativa_Rose posted...

People who are against "price gouging" are people who have no understanding of economics, particularly how prices are determined by supply and demand.

and people who firmly believe in "capitalism" (with no regulation) are people who have no understanding of the real world.

Strawman, no one said they believed in "capitalism" (with no regulation)

fair enough
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Balrog0 posted...

darkjedilink posted...

No more or less so than a regulated one, since you can't change the concept of supply and demand.

what does that have to do with accounting for externalities?

Unless your regulations can magically increase supply to meet demand, prices will rise. There's no way around this.
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The balance is people rioting and stealing, which in turn prompts the employment of armed guards. Eventually, equilibrium is achieved. It's a perfect system /s
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darkjedilink posted...

Unless your regulations can magically increase supply to meet demand, prices will rise. There's no way around this.

but what does this have to do with dealing with externalities? externalities are things that increase costs or decrease the benefits for people who aren't in the supply-demand relationship in question

many of the approaches to mitigating externalities involve increased prices for or the stifling demand of processes with negative externalities -- for instance, the carbon tax, which is based on the idea that the people who are selling carbon and the people who are buying carbon are not paying the true price of their activities because we don't account for the harm it does to nearby communities who are not necessarily demanding whatever productive process is releasing CO2 or other particulate matter in the air around them
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darkjedilink posted...

Unless your regulations can magically increase supply to meet demand, prices will rise. There's no way around this.

'There will always be a demand for hitmen, therefore we should deregulate murder. There's no way around this. Let the free market handle it.'
/anarchocapitalist
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Balrog0 posted...

darkjedilink posted...

Unless your regulations can magically increase supply to meet demand, prices will rise. There's no way around this.

but what does this have to do with dealing with externalities? externalities are things that increase costs or decrease the benefits for people who aren't in the supply-demand relationship in question

many of the approaches to mitigating externalities involve increased prices for or the stifling demand of processes with negative externalities -- for instance, the carbon tax, which is based on the idea that the people who are selling carbon and the people who are buying carbon are not paying the true price of their activities because we don't account for the harm it does to nearby communities who are not necessarily demanding whatever productive process is releasing CO2 or other particulate matter in the air around them

I don't really see where this plays into price gouging. There are externalities associated with the consumption of certain products as you mentioned, and taxes like the carbon tax are often suggested as a way to deal with that. Direct price controls (price floors, price ceilings) aren't at all the same thing as taxing the consumption of certain goods with negative externalities.
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Balrog0 posted...

darkjedilink posted...

Unless your regulations can magically increase supply to meet demand, prices will rise. There's no way around this.

but what does this have to do with dealing with externalities? externalities are things that increase costs or decrease the benefits for people who aren't in the supply-demand relationship in question

many of the approaches to mitigating externalities involve increased prices for or the stifling demand of processes with negative externalities -- for instance, the carbon tax, which is based on the idea that the people who are selling carbon and the people who are buying carbon are not paying the true price of their activities because we don't account for the harm it does to nearby communities who are not necessarily demanding whatever productive process is releasing CO2 or other particulate matter in the air around them

So, you admit you're just shitposting. Gotcha.
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Barenziah Boy Toy posted...

darkjedilink posted...

Unless your regulations can magically increase supply to meet demand, prices will rise. There's no way around this.

'There will always be a demand for hitmen, therefore we should deregulate murder. There's no way around this. Let the free market handle it.'
/anarchocapitalist

Except Libertarians recognize that murder is the violation of someone's rights, and therefore don't advocate for such.

Of course, BBT can't actually argue the point, so he's gotta resort to a strawman.
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Sativa_Rose posted...

I don't really see where this plays into price gouging. There are externalities associated with the consumption of certain products as you mentioned, and taxes like the carbon tax are often suggested as a way to deal with that. Direct price controls (price floors, price ceilings) aren't at all the same thing as taxing the consumption of certain goods with negative externalities.

I don't think it matters directly

the only way it matters is that it points to the fact that the allocation of resources due to supply and demand is constrained by transaction costs. "Supply" and "demand" issues are important, but also relevant are information asymmetry issues, for instance. During times of disaster, new entrants into the market face an obvious barrier or two that might vitiate the positive aspects of price gouging
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