Current Events > Can someone explain to a Brit the drama surrounding the confederacy statues?

(+) Yeah! (+)

From my perspective seems silly to have them removed. They are part of the history. We've had some horrid kings and leaders over the years (Oliver Cromwell anyone?) but don't see people clamouring for statues or pubs in his name being torn down.

Why so much volatility over these statues?

are there any statues of Oliver Cromwell to begin with?
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ROBANN_88 posted...

are there any statues of Oliver Cromwell to begin with?

Sure there are. Not many but some.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Oliver_Cromwell,_Westminster

are there any statues of...what's his name, the bad king guy in Robin Hood?
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ROBANN_88 posted...

are there any statues of...what's his name, the bad king guy in Robin Hood?

Lord Farquaad?
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bangers and mash
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Milo_Yiannopous posted...

They are part of the history.

In this case, the wrong part. These statues were erected, for the most part, as part of a broader effort to whitewash the legacy of the Confederacy and the continued subjugation of African Americans.
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ROBANN_88 posted...

are there any statues of...what's his name, the bad king guy in Robin Hood?

Yeah. Still going up.

http://www.lynnnews.co.uk/news/statue-of-bad-king-john-unveiled-in-king-s-lynn-town-centre-1-7625806

Milo_Yiannopous posted...

Why so much volatility over these statues?

"Muh feelings!"
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They are SJWs that believes that all KKK and Nazis will see their mistakes and become good guys by censoring history.
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Foppe posted...

They are SJWs that believes that all KKK and Nazis will see their mistakes and become good guys by censoring history.

This is a blatant lie
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are they trying to like, delete history?
cause that sounds a bit 1984. "we've always been at war with Eurasia"

or are they just saying "hey, this guy shouldn't be celebrated by having a statue"?
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ROBANN_88 posted...

are they trying to like, delete history?
cause that sounds a bit 1984. "we've always been at war with Eurasia"

or are they just saying "hey, this guy shouldn't be celebrated by having a statue"?

I don't know really. Tis why I'm asking. In the UK no one really worships Cromwell \ King John. Is it the same as not having statues of Hitler in Germany? Were the confederacy that bad?

Milo_Yiannopous posted...

Were the confederacy that bad?

The Confederacy was the culmination of two and a half centuries of systematic racial enslavement.
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It's because the South lost the war. Losers don't deserve participation trophies.
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It's more like having a statue of George Washington in Britain. They were traitors who killed Americans to get their way
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ROBANN_88 posted...

are they trying to like, delete history?
cause that sounds a bit 1984. "we've always been at war with Eurasia"

or are they just saying "hey, this guy shouldn't be celebrated by having a statue"?

At the end, weren't they allied with Eurasia against east Asia? I thought I remembered east Asia being the one they were at war with in the end...
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ROBANN_88 posted...

are they trying to like, delete history?
cause that sounds a bit 1984. "we've always been at war with Eurasia"

or are they just saying "hey, this guy shouldn't be celebrated by having a statue"?

It's the latter.

Confederate seceded from and waged war against the United States. Statues were raised after the war to stick it to the Union (see: "the South will rise again!!!"). It'd normally not be a big deal, but the statues are still rallying points for the deepest dredges of filth in America; neo Nazis and Klansmen who would see black people back in chains if they had it their way.

It's mostly a point where there's just no reason to be honoring them and providing the weird place of pseudo-worship for racists. I don't think they should be erased, I think they should be moved to museums. Same reason you don't really see Southern cities flying Confederate flags much anymore (on government buildings, at least); it's the flag of traitors and has been twisted from "our history" to a sick supremacy icon by the worst of the worst people.

Of course they should be remembered, but it's like having a Hitler statue in Germany or Hussein in Iraq. No reason for a public shrine.
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Colorahdo posted...

It's more like having a statue of George Washington in Britain. They were traitors who killed Americans to get their way

Plenty of statues of him in the UK.

https://almostchosenpeople.wordpress.com/2012/05/25/george-washington-in-trafalgar-square/

Seems the US needs to let go of their history and get over it and realise it for what it is. History.

They weren't traitors. At that time the south provided a key part of the econmy in the US. Still we were fine without it.

But people do worship the Confederacy in America so that's definitely a factor.
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Colorahdo posted...

It's more like having a statue of George Washington in Britain. They were traitors who killed Americans to get their way

This is a better example than my Hitler statue.

Also, imagine in the scenario that a significant group of heavily armed redneck Americans flew to England and rallied around the George Washington statue talking about killing stupid, savage Jew Brits every time the idea of removing the statue was floated.

The poisonous reaction to the threat of moving these statues exposes the kind of people who make us want to do it in the first place.
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Milo_Yiannopous posted...

Colorahdo posted...

It's more like having a statue of George Washington in Britain. They were traitors who killed Americans to get their way

Plenty of statues of him in the UK.

https://almostchosenpeople.wordpress.com/2012/05/25/george-washington-in-trafalgar-square/

Seems the US needs to let go of their history and get over it and realise it for what it is. History.

I agree with you, actually. I think they are trying to erase history. That's a pretty common thing in America. We're never taught the bad things, the government is constantly trying to make history books more "patriotic"
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Blackstar110 posted...

No reason for a public shrine.

Maybe it's a maturity of the country thing. We have plenty of statues of bad people in the UK but understand that they are part of our history whether we like it or not. Seems in the US the general attitude is just to destroy something people don't agree with rather than accept it as part of the history.

Blackstar110 posted...

This is a better example than my Hitler statue.

Already responded on this. There are statues of GW in the UK.

Milo_Yiannopous posted...

Colorahdo posted...

It's more like having a statue of George Washington in Britain. They were traitors who killed Americans to get their way

Plenty of statues of him in the UK.

https://almostchosenpeople.wordpress.com/2012/05/25/george-washington-in-trafalgar-square/

Seems the US needs to let go of their history and get over it and realise it for what it is. History.

Presented as a gift and a token of goodwill 150 years after the Revolution, not erected next to Big Ben as a middle finger right afterwards, tbh.
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Relocating the statues to museums, where history is remembered and talked about = Erasing history

Sure.
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Blackstar110 posted...

but the statues are still rallying points for the deepest dredges of filth in America; neo Nazis and Klansmen

Blackstar110 posted...

there's just no reason to be honoring them and providing the weird place of pseudo-worship for racists.

clarification needed.
is this about them being racists in a time when that was arguably a common thing, or is it about their "followers" being racists now?
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Milo_Yiannopous posted...

Blackstar110 posted...

No reason for a public shrine.

Maybe it's a maturity of the country thing. We have plenty of statues of bad people in the UK but understand that they are part of our history whether we like it or not. Seems in the US the general attitude is just to destroy something people don't agree with rather than accept it as part of the history.

I gave you a serious answe and said they should be preserved in museums and you shot back with "I guess we're just more mature!"

If you'd made up your mind, why'd you ask?
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I don't understand why people keep talking about erasing history. Honorary statues erected after the fact are not integral to remembering the past. There are millions of things (good or bad) we remember without having statues built to honor them all over the place.
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Milo_Yiannopous posted...

Colorahdo posted...

It's more like having a statue of George Washington in Britain. They were traitors who killed Americans to get their way

Plenty of statues of him in the UK.

https://almostchosenpeople.wordpress.com/2012/05/25/george-washington-in-trafalgar-square/

Seems the US needs to let go of their history and get over it and realise it for what it is. History.

lmao this is pretty funny

"but tc, it is like having this statue.."

"oh here is such a statue.."

"oh I meant more like"

"and that one too"
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ROBANN_88 posted...

Blackstar110 posted...

but the statues are still rallying points for the deepest dredges of filth in America; neo Nazis and Klansmen

Blackstar110 posted...

there's just no reason to be honoring them and providing the weird place of pseudo-worship for racists.

clarification needed.
is this about them being racists in a time when that was arguably a common thing, or is it about their "followers" being racists now?

A little of Columns A and B, to varying degrees. Mostly B.

EVERYONE was kinda racist in the 1800s. However, the Confederacy seceded and waged war to keep the slave trade alive. That's why it's not really comparable when people say "well, Jefferson owned slaves! We tearing down his statues?" No, because Jefferson didn't get a statue for going to war with his own country so he could have slaves, he got a statue for the Declaration and being a key Founding Father.

All that being said, it's beside the point. No one woke up one morning 150 years later and said "know what? Fuck the confederacy! Take down the statues!" It's only a subject at hand because they've become a symbol of vile, CURRENT racism and neonazism. That's the only reason we're even talking about it.
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I would explain it like this tc

America is sorry for slavery

but how can they apologize to the descendents of slaves and say "we sorry that happened" while having statues of people who fought to keep it from going away?
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Blackstar110 posted...

Colorahdo posted...

It's more like having a statue of George Washington in Britain. They were traitors who killed Americans to get their way

This is a better example than my Hitler statue.

Also, imagine in the scenario that a significant group of heavily armed redneck Americans flew to England and rallied around the George Washington statue talking about killing stupid, savage Jew Brits every time the idea of removing the statue was floated.

The poisonous reaction to the threat of moving these statues exposes the kind of people who make us want to do it in the first place.

Even in Germany they have some museums dedicated to the art of Nazi Germany. From my trips to Germany they haven't just tried to pretend it didn't happen or hide it away. School children are taught it in school as a part of the history as a way to make sure it never happens again.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/feb/01/books.germany

Hell even the berlin police in germany have their training centre next to a concentration camp as a reminder of the atrocities of the past so they never make the mistakes again. If the germans can use concentration camps as reminders of their atrocities and warnings against repeating them (lets not hide that they do still have neo nazis that vandalise the places in modern day) then surely the US can keep confederate statues up as a reminder of the past?

https://www.fhpolbb.de/sites/default/files/field/dokumente/150_zur_geschichte_des_ortes_englisch.pdf

darkphoenix181 posted...

I would explain it like this tc

America is sorry for slavery

but how can they apologize to the descendents of slaves and say "we sorry that happened" while having statues of people who fought to keep it from going away?

And while racists pile around them and drive around in pick up trucks with confederate imagery tbh

That has to go "out of style" in the South. Not about deleting it, it's about how it just shouldn't be cool to fly that flag or hail those guys as your heroes.
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Milo_Yiannopous posted...

Blackstar110 posted...

Colorahdo posted...

It's more like having a statue of George Washington in Britain. They were traitors who killed Americans to get their way

This is a better example than my Hitler statue.

Also, imagine in the scenario that a significant group of heavily armed redneck Americans flew to England and rallied around the George Washington statue talking about killing stupid, savage Jew Brits every time the idea of removing the statue was floated.

The poisonous reaction to the threat of moving these statues exposes the kind of people who make us want to do it in the first place.

Even in Germany they have some museums dedicated to the art of Nazi Germany. From my trips to Germany they haven't just tried to pretend it didn't happen or hide it away. School children are taught it in school as a part of the history as a way to make sure it never happens again.

Are you even reading my posts?

I said they should be preserved in a museum, which is literally what you just said about the Hitler stuff.
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Blackstar110 posted...

Milo_Yiannopous posted...

Blackstar110 posted...

No reason for a public shrine.

Maybe it's a maturity of the country thing. We have plenty of statues of bad people in the UK but understand that they are part of our history whether we like it or not. Seems in the US the general attitude is just to destroy something people don't agree with rather than accept it as part of the history.

I gave you a serious answe and said they should be preserved in museums and you shot back with "I guess we're just more mature!"

If you'd made up your mind, why'd you ask?

No. I was using the fact that some of the statues I'm referring to are related to things that are from a lot longer ago than the confederacy. Perhaps time heals old wounds was my point. I'm sorry you saw that as an attack. It wasn't meant to be.

ClunkerSlim posted...

Slavery was an intensely complex social issue at the time, but now days we like to look back and boil history down to its simplest terms. Union good, Confederacy bad.

There's nothing "intensely complex" about it. Owning people is wrong, and has always been wrong. It literally is black and white

Taxer posted...

It's because the South lost the war. Losers don't deserve participation trophies.

Best logic so far
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ClunkerSlim posted...

and people who thought it would end when God declared it (this was actually a pretty big movement where people believed that slavery was destined to end but only by God's hand)

and how would God do this?
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Blackstar110 posted...


i see. very well.
does this extend to other symbols that nazis and racists use?
they do have a tendency to just take over shit all willy nilly.
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darkphoenix181 posted...

I would explain it like this tc

America is sorry for slavery

but how can they apologize to the descendents of slaves and say "we sorry that happened" while having statues of people who fought to keep it from going away?

Same way the UK does? Literally a statue in Bristol of one of the worst slave traders during the time.

https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1202137

http://www.sweethistory.org/images/statue-of-edward-colston.jpg

Blackstar110 posted...

Milo_Yiannopous posted...

Blackstar110 posted...

Colorahdo posted...

It's more like having a statue of George Washington in Britain. They were traitors who killed Americans to get their way

This is a better example than my Hitler statue.

Also, imagine in the scenario that a significant group of heavily armed redneck Americans flew to England and rallied around the George Washington statue talking about killing stupid, savage Jew Brits every time the idea of removing the statue was floated.

The poisonous reaction to the threat of moving these statues exposes the kind of people who make us want to do it in the first place.

Even in Germany they have some museums dedicated to the art of Nazi Germany. From my trips to Germany they haven't just tried to pretend it didn't happen or hide it away. School children are taught it in school as a part of the history as a way to make sure it never happens again.

Are you even reading my posts?

I said they should be preserved in a museum, which is literally what you just said about the Hitler stuff.

My point was that the concentration camps in Germany still attract Neo Nazis and they still remain.

A good deal of these statues/monuments were erected during the civil rights era to spite black people. Get rid of them.
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Milo_Yiannopous posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

I would explain it like this tc

America is sorry for slavery

but how can they apologize to the descendents of slaves and say "we sorry that happened" while having statues of people who fought to keep it from going away?

Same way the UK does? Literally a statue in Bristol of one of the worst slave traders during the time.

https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1202137

http://www.sweethistory.org/images/statue-of-edward-colston.jpg

he was a terrible man?

then why this:

On the south face, the words 'Erected by / citizens of Bristol / as a memorial / of one of the most / virtuous and wise sons of / their city / AD 1895' and 'John Cassidy fecit'. On the west face, Colston dispenses charity to poor children; on the north he is shown at the harbour; on the east is a scene with marine horses, mermaids, and anchors.

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ROBANN_88 posted...

Blackstar110 posted...


i see. very well.
does this extend to other symbols that nazis and racists use?
they do have a tendency to just take over shit all willy nilly.

Probably WOULD, but it's kind of a hypothetical. Confederate imagery is the go-to, because it's not only acceptable but outright trendy in the South. It's a very casual and safe way for them to say "hey, I'm a racist! The South shall rise again!" without saying it.

I'm not saying everyone who owns confederate imagery is inherently a racist -- it's unlikely given the sheer quantity of it in areas of the south -- but there's a reason you see Confederate flags next to Swastikas in pictures from Charlottesville. It's easier and less stigmatized to carry than a burning cross.
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darkphoenix181 posted...

Milo_Yiannopous posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

I would explain it like this tc

America is sorry for slavery

but how can they apologize to the descendents of slaves and say "we sorry that happened" while having statues of people who fought to keep it from going away?

Same way the UK does? Literally a statue in Bristol of one of the worst slave traders during the time.

https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1202137

http://www.sweethistory.org/images/statue-of-edward-colston.jpg

he was a terrible man?

then why this:

On the south face, the words 'Erected by / citizens of Bristol / as a memorial / of one of the most / virtuous and wise sons of / their city / AD 1895' and 'John Cassidy fecit'. On the west face, Colston dispenses charity to poor children; on the north he is shown at the harbour; on the east is a scene with marine horses, mermaids, and anchors.

Same way southerners hold the statues of the Confederacy in high regard. At the time a lot of people thought he was a good man for bringing such prosperity to the city, despite it being on the backs of slaves.

TBH it's still a contentious issue in Bristol and there is, funnily enough, talk about having it removed by some people but hasn't gained the tractions that the confed statues in the US has.

BeantownHero posted...

erect

*chuckles*
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