Board 8 > Hearthstone Discussion Topic: You're Shivering, Are You Afraid?

(+) Yeah! (+)

The 15-10 ladder is an incomprehensible mess. I probably need to stop being cute and just jam Pirates endlessly
---

https://tempostorm.com/hearthstone/meta-snapshot/standard/2017-08-19

Lol thank you Reynoodle for this informative, nuanced, and unbiased look at the Standard metagame.
---

He does get ridiculous, but Druid is also stupidly good right now. Literally 40% of the top ranks are Druids.
---

He isn't the writer for that
---

But it's still his team. I'm sure he has a lot of influence.
---

dowolf posted...

He does get ridiculous, but Druid is also stupidly good right now. Literally 40% of the top ranks are Druids.

Not saying Druid isn't an issue, but pointing it out inaccurately like this isn't helping. In fact, this will make things worse as more people go to Druid since Tempostorm said every Druid Deck is Tier 0. Looking at the Data Reaper data gives you a much more accurate picture of what's going on in the meta and WHY it's going on and if Reynad is gonna insist that his site's tier list is useful despite a focus on his pro players' analysis and not recorded stats, I expect actual analysis and not high-profile shitposting.

For example, biggest issue is them stating the meta isn't aggressive when the five best decks are Jade Druid and four aggro decks (Token Druid, Pirate Warrior, Murloc Paladin, and Evolve Shaman). Jade Druid loses to all of those except Evolve Shaman, but it beats decks trying to beat aggro.

I do think Reynad is right about Innervate, but the guys doing the writeups didn't get his memo. That and Plague are the real issues, but people would rather focus on Infestation. Its a great card, and it's what you lose to, even though it's not WHY you lose. You lose because Druid now has 8 efficient ramp spells (versus 6.5 since Nourish was mainly card draw), an actual good card to look forward to, and incredible stall tools that flipped 3 of its worst matchups.

They'll probably kill UI in a month or two since that's easier than adjusting every stall/armor card, which is unfornate to me as someone who loves ramp. But at least I'll get my dust back.
---

You all say Skulking Geist is a bad card, but when I watch people streaming anywhere rank 5 or higher (including top 200 legend) I see it consistently played by everyone.
---

Well a lot of the people playing it are control deck players (Dead Man Warrior, Frost Mage, Handlock being the main three) and it is solely to give a chance in the Jade Druid matchup

But it still doesn't quite do enough when they have Jades on the board and so much cycle
---

It does have some collateral damage against Priests who are trying to Inner Fire, though!
---

Three things.

1) It becomes lot better when you expect Jade Druid in 20% or more of your matchups

2) What I didn't understand is how much better Druid is at making shuffle matter now. The stall and draw power is a strong combination. I was shuffling WAY more than I used to in my games last night.

3) The types of decks people are trying to play lack the pressure needed to kill druid quickly through a ton of 1/5s.

I'm not sure what happened to Midrange Paladin. I haven't seen any but a deck that runs Equality while also actually trying to kill you seems good. Maybe Plague shuts that down too, though. Control Paladin just durdles too much.
---

data reaper's live data is kinda worthless, since it takes all ranks into account (unless there's an option on the spreadsheet I'm not seeing).

also I'm pretty sure Raynad made a video all of yesterday complaining about Invigorate but >_>
---

Well I mean, isn't a card considered to be good if it's in a decent percentage of relevant decks? OK, so it's mainly to play against jade druid, sure, but it seems like that should matter.
---

All he does on his stream is complain about Innervate, too. That's why I said I agreed with him.

I know the live data isn't the best, but if I'm picking between that and a literal shitpost I know what I'd take <_<
---

First Paladin arena of KFT, and it went a lot like my paladin runs from late Ungoro, and went 12-1. Double Bonemare is probably the highlight, but aside from an Equality/Lay on Hands/Rallying Blade, it was mostly about the strong neutral commons this time.


---

Just lost an arena match to a guy playing N'Zoth for only an infested tauren

feelsbadman
---

I'm finally getting in some arena runs myself, and... Man, I really underestimated Deathspeaker. It's only a 117 on the Lightforge, and I have to assume that's a function of the dearth of 2-drops because it feels insane right now.
---

http://metastats.net/deck/297563e9-4a5b-46d8-9365-a9dad0c519b2/last7/

So this is the best version of the deck right
---

Arena #7
I was Offered: Warlock/Paladin/Mage
I Picked: Mage


I'm planning to play a lot more Paladin in the future but I have a quest to win games as Mage right now and I doubt I'll do that in constructed. Might as well get this out of the way now since I know I'll be prioritizing Paladin more in future drafts.

The Draft: As is typical for me, I drafted a completely god awful deck. This has the worst score of any deck I've drafted so far by a pretty huge margin. It's only when you play AGAINST mages that they have all of the perfect cards in their deck. I don't think I got a single card that generates additional value outside of like a stonehill defender. None of the bullshit removal cards, none of the cards that generate spells, nothing. Looks like picking Mage was kind of pointless since I doubt I'll even win one game with this garbage deck.

Game 1: Vs Shaman. I went Second. My opponent was playing snowflipper penguin for some unknown reason. I just pushed the board with my shitty neutral minions due to having no good spells or any good mage cards or even any good neutral minions. Blizzard is the only spell in my deck and it did end up being pretty useful on turn 8. I paired Cobalt Scalebane and Corpse Raiser for some late game advantage and managed to win, pretty much only because my opponent clearly had no idea how to draft any kind of deck. Pure luck. Win.

Game 2: Vs Warlock. I went First. I did draw some early drops but they were all 'buff other minion' types which is obviously not great to slam down on curve, since it causes them to lose value. I decided to wait and just play my hand out later in a more reactionary way. This does sacrifice a bit of tempo but I was going first anyway so it kinda balanced out. He kinda just made a bunch of really dumb plays despite having good cards, and then kept spamming emotes like most bad players usually do when they are playing really, really bad. Despite my absurdly low deck quality I was able to outvalue him and come out ahead. Win.

Game 3: Vs Druid. I went First. Since Druid is apparently tier 1 now I should probably be careful. Neither one of us had much of an opener which is good for me. Although in the long term I will lose any game that goes into late rounds because of the fact that I simply don't have any good cards to topdeck. I managed to seize mid game control of the board by using similar tactics to the previous game. Rather than trying to push for tempo I just played for value. I was going First anyway, so it's harder to fall behind. At this point I just dropped the biggest taunt I could pick up from stonehill defender and pushed face from behind it. I have no other hopes of winning with this deck, so yeah. In the end he was holding a lot more cards than me but didn't end up doing anything with them as I played for value and dumped my hand every single turn. Win.

I don't know if there's any better proof that Hearthstone is absolutely a skill-based game than a player drafting an unbelievably bad deck and going 3-0 with it. At this point though I have a feeling I'll run into crazy decks and drop to 3-3 pretty fast. I guess we'll see.

Game 4: Vs Rogue. I went Second. Pretty fair opener with lots of options at my disposal. He tempo'd out really well in the mid game though and I ended up struggling. This deck doesn't have any great comeback mechanisms and I predictably fell too far behind to catch up. A Primordial Drake off of Stonehill Defender is the only thing that even gave me a chance. He played around it really well though and I got stuck with no good options transitioning into the late game. Loss.
---

VeryInsane posted...

http://metastats.net/deck/297563e9-4a5b-46d8-9365-a9dad0c519b2/last7/

So this is the best version of the deck right

If there's no aggro at all, sure. Greedy as hell list.

On the other hand, the deck might be bad enough againat aggro that you just say fuck it and drop plague anyways.
---

bng_mmmk posted...

You all say Skulking Geist is a bad card, but when I watch people streaming anywhere rank 5 or higher (including top 200 legend) I see it consistently played by everyone.

Jade druid seems to be especially prevalent at higher ranks.
---

Game 5: Vs Hunter. I went First. Of all things I literally got Fel Orc Soulfiend value in this match. You might be wondering why I'm running such a terrible card but my draft was so bad that I was literally offered three choices where this was the best one. Yeah, that bad. I played it right on curve followed by Earthern Ring Farseer to heal it. Got him to trade multiple minions in which really slows down Hunter's early game plan. I was then perhaps the victim of the most brutal On The Hunt of all time, with him sniping a 5/1 minion that had been buffed by Cobalt Scalebane. Yikes. That might have legitimately been a game swinging turn. I went from feeling like I was winning to feeling like I was losing, instantly. And for 1 mana on his part. Just wow. My only bet was to go all in on Keening Banshee. Hell, doesn't matter if I'm burning cards since all of my cards are bad anyway. Managed to gain control of the board but my life total was already too low and he grinded me down. Loss.

Game 6: Vs Priest. I went Second. He plays Hero Power Pass on Turn 2, which is always a good thing for me. I got Lich King off of Stonehill Defender. If I can survive to turn 8 I may have a chance! Forget surviving to turn 8, I seize early game tempo really easily and take full control of the board by turn 5. Killed him on turn 8. No Lich King value for me. Win.

Game 7: Vs Mage. I went First. Made a huge misplay early on, ordering my minions incorrectly because I wasn't paying attention (was putting some music on while switching between tabs whoops). I don't think it even mattered really. The overall quality of his deck was about 100x higher than mine and I really had no chance of winning to begin with. Bonemare, multiple good Secrets, etc. etc. Loss.

Final Result: 4-3

Pretty amazing. I didn't expect to win any games with this deck, much less 4 games. Really shows the level of variance you can experience playing hearthstone though where I can go 4-3 with a tier 1 class and a good deck or 4-3 with a tier 2 class and the worst deck I've drafted in the current arena meta.

Prizes:
1 Pack, 50 Gold, 10 Dust
---

VeryInsane posted...

Oh yeah someone asked me about Mid Pally building (I think it was Han)

This is basically the shell right now: Murloc Opening and Buffs/Tirion lategame

x2 Murloc Tidecaller
x2 Righteous Protector
x2 Vilefin Inquisitor
x2 Hydrologist
x2 Rockpool Hunter
x2 Murloc Warleader
x2 Rallying Blade
X1 Blessing of Kings
x2 Gentle Megasaur
Finja, the Flying Star
x2 Spikeridged Steed
Sunkeeper Tarim
x2 Bonemare
Tirion Fordring

These are the ones I think will be core. Other cards worth considering are Corpsetaker/Wickerflame, Consecration, Stonehill, Grimscale Chum, Another Kings, Bolvar, Truesilver, Corsair + Patches, The Curator, The Lich King, and Deathwing. Maybe tech cards like Black Knight too

currently 100% winrate (out of 2 matches at rank 15 lol) literally unbeatable

not this exact list but mostly
---

I feel like this should be a good run. Let's see this blow up though.
---

Geist is not a bad card. Dowolf is just crazy is all. Druid and Shaman get destroyed by it, plus you get the 1 drop spells out of your deck on turn 6. By that point in the game, I don't care about drawing Whirlwind.

Shaduln posted...

I feel like this should be a good run. Let's see this blow up though.

man how do you even get so lucky!
---

MariaTaylor posted...

Shaduln posted...

I feel like this should be a good run. Let's see this blow up though.

man how do you even get so lucky!

I normally don't.

First game though, went really well (I didn't pay attention to the class I was playing against).

I played DK Uther, the guy insta-conceded.
---

maybe 5% of people are playing shaman. who cares.

As for druid: in my experience, you generally don't care.

Shaduln: I feel like your early game's gonna cost you a game or two, but that late game... :)
---

Geist won't help if the Shaman can evolve before you play it. >_>
---

2-1 currently. I feel like things are going well.
---

Man, that is a potential 12 win deck. I wish I got offered somewhere close to that

Was just offered a personal record of 4 legendaries in an arena draft.

Captain Greenskin
The Curator
Lich King
Ysera
---

I just stabilized against a mage who was leading the game early. I get lich king out and my card is army of the dead, which was perfect. And I had a faceless shambler in hand.

So I play army of the dead and get 5 minions into play. Faceless shambler the Fire Elemental.

The mage has no cards in hand.

He topdecks Deathwing.
---

He would go on to play Mogor, so my best play was flood the board. I drop a couple 3 drops and am lucky enough to get a taunt totem.

His mogor hits my taunt and deathwing hits my face. He went 2 for 2 on the 50/50 lol.

Whyyy
---

Next match. I get Lich King out and opponent only has a 1/1 on board.

His devour mind cards were Brrrloc, Icebreaker, and Captain Greenskin. LOL.

Was able to pull that one out thanks to Ysera + Hozen Healer but it was really close.
---

Bleh. 4-3. One of those runs where the opponents had every possible answer...even when they didn't!

my pack had two Meat Wagons. >_>
---

wow you went 4-3 with Lich King, Curator and Ysera

that is really surprising
---

Feels like it doesn't matter if the opponent just kills you before then
---

That can be true, but in this case I never got overrun early. My opponents just had every single answer. Even topdeck Deathwing with an empty hand. I mean it doesn't get much more classic than that. >_>
---

yeah it sounds like in this case you just got insanely unlucky with your early match ups and faced other crazy control decks that out valued you. pretty rare, but it does happen. to get such tough opponents so early in the run, the one time you draft what looks to have been a deck with some high quality cards, is just really unfortunate.
---

Looks like it's time to finally spend my dust and craft a deck with new cards.

I heard Druid is decent?
---

I somehow went 4-3 with my deck above, so I get it puns.
---

Only a 66 tier score but this deck should at least get me a decent amount of wins I hope

2 Doomsayer
2 Ice Walker
2 Rockpool Hunter
2 Youthful Brewmaster
3 Deathspeaker
3 Earthen Ring Farseer
3 Thunder Lizard
3 Toxic Sewer Ooze
3 Vicious Fledgling
3 Volcanic Potion x2
4 Corpsetaker
4 Keening Banshee
4 Kooky Chemist
4 Steam Surger x2
4 Stegodon
5 Bomb Squad
5 Grook Fu Master
5 Spiked Hogrider
5 Stampeding Kodo
5 Venomancer
6 Blizzard
6 Bone Drake
6 Furnacefire Colossus
6 Nerubian Prophet
7 Bog Creeper
7 The Curator
8 Sindragosa
10 Pyroblast

okay, who wants 80 gold? Arjuna#1833
---

VI got it.

On an unrelated note, I can confirm that Stonehill Defender in Paladin is just as bullshit as before.

On a related note to that one, my pally draft is 3-0 now.
---

dowolf posted...

maybe 5% of people are playing shaman. who cares.

As for druid: in my experience, you generally don't care.

Shaduln: I feel like your early game's gonna cost you a game or two, but that late game... :)

Maybe it's 5% in your world, but I have to deal with direct counterpicks and everyone else having better draws and rng in most games.

It's pretty easy higher up since you mostly play against Druid and the handful of decks that can beat Druid (Mid Pally/Miracle Rogue/Pirate Warrior) yet those decks still can lose to tech cards
---

ShatteredElysium posted...

7 The Curator
8 Sindragosa

Jeeze, the value.

You are so light on 2drops with no 1drops though. As long as you make it through the early game you should be fine, but the potential to draw dead into an insurmountable disadvantage is pretty significant.



Here is my current Druid deck in arena:

Emerald Reaver

Druid of the Swarm
Fallen Sun Cleric x2
Golakka Crawler
Mark of the Wild
Wrath

Demolisher
Ironbeak Owl
Stonehill Defender
Violet Illusinist

Evolving Spores
Stongshell Scavenger

Fen Creeper
Living Mana x2
Servant of Kalimos x2
Stampeding Kodo
Starfall

Bone Drake
Frozen Crusher
Jade Behemoth x4
Speallweaver

Baron Geddon
Bonemare
Sated Threshadon

Bold for emphasis on absurd value.
---

Dead Man's Hand is so cool that it almost makes me want to play warrior.
---

Yeah was pretty much as you said FD. Too light on early game so ran into issues where I had awesome stuff in hand and could seize control of the board but had already been whittled down too much.

Ended up going 4-3. Most games I did get Curator and/or Sindragosa out but a couple of them it didn't matter because I had no taunts to block them from going face.

Bone Drake also gave me Onyxia twice. Sindragosa gave me Deathwing at one point but I never threw it down as I had board advantage. Trying to think what I got off Sindragosa. Leeroy Jenkins (never played it), Onyxia, Herald Volazj, Deathwing, Yshaarj, Benedictus. Also burned one from my hand being too full and me not thinking to check it. It rarely gave me bad legendaries really, tempted to craft it for my mage deck

I regret that my last game was played on mobile and wasn't recorded.

The guy played Malchezaar. One of his random legendaries was Lorewalker Cho. He played the Cho. He cast Ancestral Spirit on the Cho. It was great.
---