Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 122: Fuck (David) Duke

(+) Yeah! (+)

MenuWars posted...

If you're a provoker what do you practise? provocation doesn't feel right.

The correct term is provacateur because its a stolen french word.
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Considering the previous conversation, I found this.... relevant.
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DOJ/FBI are opening an investigation:

https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly/status/896566047834288128
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Jakyl25 posted...

I realize who the actual posters are, and that they share no ideology besides childish nihilism, but the posts about the rally/murder on /b/ tonight are overwhelmingly pro-murder

/b/ is where the alt right began in 2007. The alt right started with Tom Green talk show raids, Habbo Hotel, etc. This is the internet and these kids getting older. This is what happens
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Corrik posted...

Driver is confirmed to have been there for the rally.

The driver and the woman who died are both from Ohio interestingly enough

Also this is the second time a whole bunch of Identity Evropa people have rallied to Charlottesville, the first time no counterprotesters showed up at all:

https://altright.com/2017/05/17/charlottesville-is-a-turning-point-for-the-alt-right/
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Corrik posted...

Driver is confirmed to have been there for the rally.

This is where i point out Wang specifically said the Driver was "actually Anti-Fa or a supporter" in the last topic.

Probably read it on whatever board he reads that keeps him utterly entrenched in alt-right talking points, while constantly going "I'm really actually a Liberal".
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LordoftheMorons posted...

DOJ/FBI are opening an investigation:

https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly/status/896566047834288128

Okay, THAT might be bad news for Stormfront
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....oh lord.
gonna stop my convo for a sec to bring an update on the car stuff.

people saw the licence plate number in a picture provided by dailyprogress.
people looked into the owner of that plate. they found a matching name and similar car from a guy in ohio and from there, his son, who said he'd get the car when he turned 16. that was six years ago.

if it was that kid, then we know who he is. the identity of the car owner is uh... not a nazi.
or even a supporter of that half of the rally.

...he's either an ANTIFA member or supporter.



so there we go, we now have the full range of speculation.
from a guy who's a literal Nazi to ANTIFA.

That's the Wang post Tony is talking about I believe.

I'd give him credit for later admitting that he was talking about the wrong guy...

but then he assumed the first guy was a member of Antifa in the first place without evidence.
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Internet sleuths are the most credible
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i'm the kind of dumbass who assumes left wing groups drive cars into left wing protesters

Metal_DK posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

I realize who the actual posters are, and that they share no ideology besides childish nihilism, but the posts about the rally/murder on /b/ tonight are overwhelmingly pro-murder

/b/ is where the alt right began in 2007. The alt right started with Tom Green talk show raids, Habbo Hotel, etc. This is the internet and these kids getting older. This is what happens

Do you really have to spread your casual revolution bullshit in here, too
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Dark Young Link posted...

....oh lord.
gonna stop my convo for a sec to bring an update on the car stuff.

people saw the licence plate number in a picture provided by dailyprogress.
people looked into the owner of that plate. they found a matching name and similar car from a guy in ohio and from there, his son, who said he'd get the car when he turned 16. that was six years ago.

if it was that kid, then we know who he is. the identity of the car owner is uh... not a nazi.
or even a supporter of that half of the rally.

...he's either an ANTIFA member or supporter.



so there we go, we now have the full range of speculation.
from a guy who's a literal Nazi to ANTIFA.

That's the Wang post Tony is talking about I believe.

I'd give him credit for later admitting that he was talking about the wrong guy...

but then he assumed the first guy was a member of Antifa in the first place without evidence.

Yeah, he was definitely all too willing to believe and run with that it was a member of Antifa
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If they investigate white supremacy forums and find stuff like this

https://twitter.com/carlbeijer/status/896441238689337344

That's a bad look, right?
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https://twitter.com/shujaxhaider/status/896584508333592578

Here's allegedly how to support the family of the murder victim
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

This is where i point out Wang specifically said the Driver was "actually Anti-Fa or a supporter" in the last topic.

Uh, no.
I wasn't assuming that was the guy at all. Hence me saying the full range of speculation is Nazi to antifa.

Explained how they got to that conclusion but never believed or said I believed it. Simply pointed out how ridiculously broad the claims of what he is had become because nobody knows what he is.
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only a complete dumbass would think antifa would be running over anti nazi protesters

please just admit to being disingenuous

Yes, and you were the one who brought up antifa into said speculation. Right after saying that the person "wasn't a nazi or a supporter from that side".

You assumed something about a person and passed it off as fact to fit your narrative. Don't try to pull back and make excuses after the fact.
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Not being disengenuous at all. I rejected the claims that we should call him a Nazi without knowing anything him and I'd reject the claims calling him antifa without knowing anything about him.

But you had speculation of both happening at the same time. Simply making that statement alone wouldn't work considering how bizarre it is, so the method of discovery is important to understand why people weighed it's credibility briefly.
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Dark Young Link posted...

Yes, and you were the one who brought up antifa into said speculation. Right after saying that the person "wasn't a nazi or a supporter from that side".

Right.
Because neither is known and both claims exist with off simple assumptions.

It'd make no sense for me to literally say wait for legit info and then say this is totally legit. I explicitly stated that it's the full range of speculation, why would you think I'm going "HEY THIS IS LEGIT" while saying that?
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god forbid anybody call a murderer a nazi
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GuessMyUserName posted...

god forbid anybody call a murderer a nazi

No but you see *insert paragraphs of word vomit dancing around the issue*
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Murderers aren't Nazis by default, no. Nor should they be compared.
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Wang, I'll give you some benefit of the doubt with that post since you never claimed it to be fact, though merely introducing it into the conversation was a little "out there." Which conspiracy theorist website did you grab it from, and what kind of evidence did they provide for you to decide it was credible enough to even mention in the "full range of speculation." From what I've read over these past several months, it does seem like you're willing to grant more leeway and sympathy to these alt-right types than most, and that is, well, very disappointing. It almost feels like tacit support under the guise of objectivity.

On a divergent point, I'm really glad that so many people have decided to label these white supremacists as losers, shut-ins, and basement dwellers who still live with mom. The alt-right overlaps significantly with those edgy pick-up artist alpha male websites, and if they become perma-labeled as virgin nerds by everybody... that would sting em bad.
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Jakyl25 posted...

If they investigate white supremacy forums and find stuff like this

https://twitter.com/carlbeijer/status/896441238689337344

That's a bad look, right?

I was going to actually point out, I had seen the exact same memes (or others similar) on r/the_donald going all the way back to the highway closures in Minnesota, possibly earlier. And now someone actually goes and does it. Reddit lets this community fester, and I know they don't want to shut down a subreddit that is perhaps the biggest Trump support group on the internet. I get that. I get the sort of political backlash they'd get.

But anyone who has looked around there knows they go far beyond what your "middle of the road" Trump supporter is. They advocate violence against their political opponents, silence dissent, and have openly advocated violently marching on Washington/CNN/anywhere you can find liberals if Trump gets impeached or if "THE SWAMP" gets to him somehow. They believe every insane fringe conspiracy theory you can think of, most likely because it helps build up genuine hatred for the left wing.

If you close it, they obviously just all go somewhere else so it doesn't solve the problem. I just don't know what to do about them at this point.
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

Wang, I'll give you some benefit of the doubt with that post since you never claimed it to be fact, though merely introducing it into the conversation was a little "out there." Which conspiracy theorist website did you grab it from, and what kind of evidence did they provide for you to decide it was credible enough to even mention in the "full range of speculation."

Saw it on Twitter while following the tags and people talking about it. The picture with the licence plate wasn't photoshopped and from a legit source, which was the first check. The other info seemed to check out too, but the whole thing is clear speculation in the first place with some connections that work. But that's all it was. Introducing it is basically to show what I said at the bottom there: that speculation of the full range had already been done. I'm pretty firmly in the position that it's ridiculous to immediately assume without knowing any facts, that's true in this topic or many others. If you think it's silly, good. So is believing the opposite with no evidence.

CaptainOfCrush posted...

From what I've read over these past several months, it does seem like you're willing to grant more leeway and sympathy to these alt-right types than most, and that is, well, very disappointing.

I give them as much leeway and sympathy as I give anyone else. It stands out more when it's people on the right in here because they get shit on endlessly here. I hate the bias which results in one side unfairly shitting on the other and the alt right ones are the ones who get hit on the most. With friends I know on the right it's the opposite, though usually also never as hostile.
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Ugh, Wang's just way too deep in defending GG/Milo/deplorables that he just can't help aligning with these shitholes on every incident, it's so frustrating because as far as I can tell he's not a disturbed hateful piece of trash but he's allllllways on their defense and trying to point the finger elsewhere.


It comes off as naive during the usual cases but when we get to straight up nazi rallies where a man LITERALLY MURDERS anti-racism protestors it's time to fucking stop it
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Kinglicious posted...

I give them as much leeway and sympathy as I give anyone else. It stands out more when it's people on the right in here because they get shit on endlessly here.

Very interesting statement. So what you're saying is that you feel like the right(especially the alt right) gets a disproportionate amount of negative attention? To the point that you feel compelled to stand up for them?
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the right get a disproportionate amount of negative attention because they support a disproportionate amount of negative ideas

Well the alt-right philosophy, to leading order, is basically "what if we combined all of the worst, least defensible ideas together and rallied behind them?" so it's not surprising
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GuessMyUserName posted...

that he just can't help aligning with these shitholes on every incident

No, I just don't treat them like shit by default, want to see where they're coming from, and have been pretty good at it. It's the exact same thing done for any other alignment. You already reject them. I don't. You don't want to understand them or see their point of view. I do.

Everything else more or less goes from that.

Dark Young Link posted...

Very interesting statement. So what you're saying is that you feel like the right(especially the alt right) gets a disproportionate amount of negative attention? To the point that you feel compelled to stand up for them?

Mmm... not quite. Alt right definitely gets a disproportionate amount of attention period to be blunt, but that's a different story. Some of it's deserved, though that then gets into the issue of people here for the most part not knowing what alt right is or who's associated with it. alt right, shitposters, stormfront, white supremacists, or white nationalist? so they get bundled together and all get called Nazis half the time (I expect an uptick which will be counterproductive). Take Nick Spencer - not a Nazi, though a white nationalist. Not sure if he's also a white supremacist, is totally a troll. Pretty much every group listed has also rejected him because they know he's poison too. None of this is a defense of him, it's a bio, yet simply going "Nick Spencer isn't a Nazi" will have people going "why are you defending him," which is frustratingly dumb. I'm pretty aware of most of these bios or can quickly gather info.

And if someone's being misrepresented of course I'll comment and "stand up" for them, even though it's usually just pointing out details from a different point of view and very, very rarely me actually standing up or defending them. Knowledge =/= defending.
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Okay if you're just coming out and saying nazis aren't bad then yeah you've gone off far worse than I ever would've imagined.


and once again we keep in mind that the current incident is literally about murdering protestors
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See, this is a perfect example.

GuessMyUserName posted...

Okay if you're just coming out and saying nazis aren't bad then yeah you've gone off far worse than I ever would've imagined.

Not a single thing here was actually said, this is completely made up.

But somehow it's supposed to be a reply to something.
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Kinglicious posted...

I just don't treat them like shit by default

You already reject them. I don't.

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post "i am against all nazis and white supremacists and disavow all of them unequivocally" plz

Kinglicious posted...

You don't want to understand them or see their point of view. I do.

Just look in a history book. The 1930-1940 range should do.


Kinglicious posted...

Take Nick Spencer - not a Nazi, though a white nationalist. Not sure if he's also a white supremacist

Is there a significant difference? >_> I don't see much reason to have a strong desire to intentionally keep a race in the majority.... unless you believed that race to be better at doing things than other races, which falls under supremacist does it not?

But ultimately you seem concerned about the "branding" of someone. You take issue with people calling this person a Nazi. Can we call him a terrorist? A murderer? A monster? A piece of shit? A neckbeared ****sucker? Because we have absolute proof that the person who ran someone over is all of those.


And I'd say the anti-semantic chanting and the Nazi flag waving would make the group who started this group a bunch of Nazis. ...Otherwise why allow someone to wave that flag if it was just about "American Heritage"?
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Right.
Now how do you get me saying "Nazis aren't bad" from either of those?

Because both are fully compatible with that statement. It's not relevant to either position.
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Actually I'm curious Wang.


What exactly do you think we could learn from literal supremacists and Nazis(Again, waving the Nazi flag)?

Why is it okay for these groups to encourage hate, to want to go back to a time where they could legally treat other people like shit? Back to a time where one side tried to exterminate the other side off the face of the planet?


...Yet we have to be polite? We have to give them a chance to speak their mind? That we have to stand there and do nothing while they cause more deaths?

The only thing that should be happening... well I'm pretty sure you wouldn't agree with exactly what I think should happen, so let's just say they should be arrested.
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Kinglicious posted...

You don't want to understand them or see their point of view. I do.

I certainly do, but they seem as fractured and leaderless as BLM (pre-Trump) so they haven't done a great job in publicly communicating any real views apart from being a bunch of pissed off white guys in camo and confederate regalia.

It feels like you enjoy the memes and share a gamergate bond with some of these guys (from the demographics I saw marching this weekend, my left nut says that a good percentage of this base were gamergaters three years ago), so you'll bend over backwards to defend them. Wake up dude.

One thing I will say which may put me at odds with some other people in this topic is that I'm not at all a fan of Antifa and deplore the violence they've utilized in past protests, much of it seemingly unprovoked.
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*checks topic*

KamikazePotato posted...

GuessMyUserName posted...

god forbid anybody call a murderer a nazi

No but you see *insert paragraphs of word vomit dancing around the issue*

It keeps happening!
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

Kinglicious posted...

You don't want to understand them or see their point of view. I do.

I certainly do, but they seem as fractured and leaderless as BLM (pre-Trump) so they haven't done a great job in publicly communicating any real views apart from being a bunch of pissed off white guys in camo and confederate regalia.

It feels like you enjoy the memes and share a gamergate bond with some of these guys (from the demographics I saw marching this weekend, my left nut says that a good percentage of this base were gamergaters three years ago), so you'll bend over backwards to defend them. Wake up dude.

One thing I will say which may put me at odds with some other people in this topic is that I'm not at all a fan of Antifa and deplore the violence they've utilized in past protests, much of it seemingly unprovoked.

You won't find any resistance from me there. The less hate the better as far as im concerned.
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Dark Young Link posted...

Just look in a history book. The 1930-1940 range should do.

That's not very helpful actually, we aren't looking at people in a completely broken economy as a result of a world war. Here's a question for you: What makes up a modern Nazi? Bear in mind, some who claim it will be gay, furries, bronies, even black - all of which would've gotten the bullet. Some will use various symbolism for shock humor and get labeled by others, though deny it.

You don't want to understand the contradictions people in this group have?

Dark Young Link posted...

Is there a significant difference? >_>

Between the two white ___, not enough to matter. The rest, yeah.

Dark Young Link posted...

But ultimately you seem concerned about the "branding" of someone. You take issue with people calling this person a Nazi. Can we call him a terrorist? A murderer? A monster? A piece of shit? A neckbeared ****sucker?

Different terms mean different things and this can be very specific. Otherwise you get the situation where everything you don't like is a Nazi, which I'd like to avoid.

Terrorist - sure. Do have to consider the whole panicked defense but I don't think that's plausible. If we confirm intent, absolutely.
Murderer - yep
Monster - see terrorist
Piece of shit - yep
Neckbeard Steve Bannon - he has a neckbeard? If so, sure.

Dark Young Link posted...

And I'd say the anti-semantic chanting and the Nazi flag waving would make the group who started this group a bunch of Nazis. ...Otherwise why allow someone to wave that flag if it was just about "American Heritage"?

Was talked a lot in the last topic, do think the argument of this being a case where it's people joining a white supremacist rally instead of the wide net of viewpoints is probably correct. Still wouldn't assume that's all but most accepting or part of them? Sure.
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

One thing I will say which may put me at odds with some other people in this topic is that I'm not at all a fan of Antifa and deplore the violence they've utilized in past protests, much of it seemingly unprovoked.

I'm not a fan of it either. From what I can see they're a bunch of asshole anarchists who are using the very real outrage over Trump and everything he stands for as an excuse to riot. I'm sure they really do hate him, but they'd be out doing this anyway (though probably to a lesser degree) either way.

This is in contrast to something like BLM which appears to mainly be fueled by real issues in our society and especially criminal justice system. I think some of them go too far and draw incorrect conclusions, but I basically understand why they're doing what they're doing.
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(small brain) stop being dicks to each other
(large brain) *as nazis march openly* people are too PC these days,
(huge brain) being antifacist is bad
(galactic brain) we should not judge the car run over trump guy too quickly

Kinglicious posted...

That's not very helpful actually, we aren't looking at people in a completely broken economy as a result of a world war. Here's a question for you: What makes up a modern Nazi? Bear in mind, some who claim it will be gay, furries, bronies, even black - all of which would've gotten the bullet. Some will use various symbolism for shock humor and get labeled by others, though deny it.

You don't want to understand the contradictions people in this group have?

Imagine being hung up on fucking semantics about this.

If you self label as nazi, youre a nazi.

If you exhibit hateful white supremacist or anti semitic nonsense, you might not 100% fit the urban dictionary definition, but youre still a nazi. Or a Klansmen but there's really no difference.

Hell if you read an editorial on Breitbart or Stormfront and go "yeah you know that makes sense" youre probably a nazi.

Its not complicated.

Its just fucking not.

Youre trying to make it complicated to let your gg buds off the hook.

They dont WANT off.
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

I certainly do, but they seem as fractured and leaderless as BLM (pre-Trump) so they haven't done a great job in publicly communicating any real views apart from being a bunch of pissed off white guys in camo and confederate regalia.

Hold on now - defending specific people was the issue right? The issue with defending groups is simply that it doesn't talk about the individual and collectives can be pretty different, especially with something like "the alt right." I prefer people over groups since people are generally easier to talk about and you can be specific. I mean I'm okay with the broader discussions too but it does end up being very different.

CaptainOfCrush posted...

It feels like you enjoy the memes and share a gamergate bond with some of these guys (from the demographics I saw marching this weekend, my left nut says that a good percentage of this base were gamergaters three years ago), so you'll bend over backwards to defend them. Wake up dude.

Definitely a fan of the memes yeah. A bond with some after GG, also true. People marching with them? Ehhh.... I highly doubt we'd get along or that they'd get along with the majority of GG supporters. Main sentiments I've seen among the networks there is hating the whole thing in the first place. No defense here for that.
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Kinglicious posted...

That's not very helpful actually, we aren't looking at people in a completely broken economy as a result of a world war. Here's a question for you: What makes up a modern Nazi? Bear in mind, some who claim it will be gay, furries, bronies, even black - all of which would've gotten the bullet. Some will use various symbolism for shock humor and get labeled by others, though deny it.

You don't want to understand the contradictions people in this group have?

Economy doesn't dictate moral character. I'm broke as fuck, I don't want to hurt people because of it. I don't see how a world war would change that.

As for what make a modern Nazi? I'd say someone who shares the beliefs as the Nazis as the past. The actual core beliefs, not some minor unrelated stuff like "Oh Hitler liked animals so if you like animals, blah blah deflection". Their sexual orientation, color, etc are irrelevant. It's their hate that makes me reject them utterly.

I see no need to understand such people. There's no reason to call yourself a neo-nazi without being a person not worth getting to know. There is absolutely no excuse for their actions, no justification. Nor will there ever be.


Kinglicious posted...

Between the two white ___, not enough to matter. The rest, yeah.

One could argue that if you're willing to call yourself a Nazi, pretend you're a Nazi, act like a Nazi just to "trigger" some people? You should face the same consequences as an actual one. Actions have consequences, it's time "trolling" stopped being a shield for being a shit human being.

Kinglicious posted...

Different terms mean different things and this can be very specific. Otherwise you get the situation where everything you don't like is a Nazi, which I'd like to avoid.

I agree. It's important to not throw the word around carelessly. However in this particular case? Dude doesn't deserve consideration. He ran over and killed someone, he no longer matters as a human being.


A cold statement coming from me? Sure. But at least I'm not a murderer.
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Eddv posted...

Hell if you read an editorial on Breitbart or Stormfront and go "yeah you know that makes sense" youre probably a nazi.

Its not complicated.

Its just fucking not.

You're right that this isn't complicated, it's just you being wrong.
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