Current Events > Capitalism vs communism

(+) Yeah! (+)

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Ideal communism (as in zero corruption) will always be better than capitalism, but the odds of an ideal communistic domain ever existing is basically zero because corruption is basically a part of being human

And corruption also happens to benefit capitalism (kinda)
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Communism can probably work in Japan since they have civilized people but every where else would like probably led to a societal death trap
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Samurontai posted...

Ideal communism (as in zero corruption) will always be better than capitalism, but the odds of an ideal communistic domain ever existing is basically zero because corruption is basically a part of being human

And corruption also happens to benefit capitalism (kinda)

"Ideal communism" exists. Just in tribes that haven't developed past the first century.

The cartoon seems to imagine that the factory magically descended from the sky rather that from a market actor who made a risky investment.
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They can't really be compared. It's like saying "science vs magic".
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Hexenherz posted...

"Ideal communism" exists. Just in tribes that haven't developed past the first century.

XD

we should all return to 1st century technology! then. what could possibly go wrong?
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neither
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tennisdude818 posted...

The cartoon seems to imagine that the factory magically descended from the sky rather that from a market actor who made a risky investment.

And?
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Something in between works almost all over Europe: You can have capitalism, as long as you force them to pay for people who fall trough the grids. Meaning free health care and free education.

REMercsChamp posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

The cartoon seems to imagine that the factory magically descended from the sky rather that from a market actor who made a risky investment.

And?

Is the factory necessary? Is there enough demand for the factory's output to warrant the cost? Well an entrepreneur has to take a chance with a big investment to find out. The workers are able to create value with their labor because the entrepreneur took that chance.

Communism tries to take price out of this equation, and the resulting allocation of resources becomes arbitrary. That's one reason why so many people starve to death in these places.
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Mandasnake posted...

Hexenherz posted...

"Ideal communism" exists. Just in tribes that haven't developed past the first century.

XD

we should all return to 1st century technology! then. what could possibly go wrong?

What is the point of your post? They obviously weren't implying anything of the sort such as that we should go back to 1st century technology.

If anything they were implying the opposite.

Hexenherz posted...

Samurontai posted...

Ideal communism (as in zero corruption) will always be better than capitalism, but the odds of an ideal communistic domain ever existing is basically zero because corruption is basically a part of being human

And corruption also happens to benefit capitalism (kinda)

"Ideal communism" exists. Just in tribes that haven't developed past the first century.

That's not communism though...?
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MetaSeraphim posted...

Mandasnake posted...

Hexenherz posted...

"Ideal communism" exists. Just in tribes that haven't developed past the first century.

XD

we should all return to 1st century technology! then. what could possibly go wrong?

What is the point of your post? They obviously weren't implying anything of the sort such as that we should go back to 1st century technology.

If anything they were implying the opposite.

And the original post is wrong regardless, as what he's implying isn't even communism
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How are those not prime examples of truly communist societies? The basic needs of the society are the primary motivating factors behind the actions of the society, they don't typically have private property, there's little to no "corruption" because there's nothing to fight over except the potential power play for a leadership position, but those are generally very highly revered and protected by religious dogma and deep-rooted tradition... and realistically because of the limited population sizes, there isn't really much room for a potential usurper to multiply influence to take over anyway.

I'd love to see what your definition of "communism" is.

tennisdude818 posted...

REMercsChamp posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

The cartoon seems to imagine that the factory magically descended from the sky rather that from a market actor who made a risky investment.

And?

Is the factory necessary? Is there enough demand for the factory's output to warrant the cost? Well an entrepreneur has to take a chance with a big investment to find out. The workers are able to create value with their labor because the entrepreneur took that chance.

Communism tries to take price out of this equation, and the resulting allocation of resources becomes arbitrary. That's one reason why so many people starve to death in these places.

Up yours
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Capitalism works because the USA, the most resource rich/ geopolitically blessed in the planet supports capitalism. Of course the USA will thrive with it. Put an economic system in any geopolitically blessed country and it will work, but try putting capitalism in a place like Chad and see what happens???
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REMercsChamp posted...

Up yours

Nice retort. If you want to bring up a discussion maybe you should actually try and have a discussion.

tennisdude818 posted...

Is the factory necessary? Is there enough demand for the factory's output to warrant the cost? Well an entrepreneur has to take a chance with a big investment to find out. The workers are able to create value with their labor because the entrepreneur took that chance.

if the factory was owned by the workers, this wouldn't be an issue
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Hexenherz posted...

How are those not prime examples of truly communist societies? The basic needs of the society are the primary motivating factors behind the actions of the society, they don't typically have private property, there's little to no "corruption" because there's nothing to fight over except the potential power play for a leadership position, but those are generally very highly revered and protected by religious dogma and deep-rooted tradition... and realistically because of the limited population sizes, there isn't really much room for a potential usurper to multiply influence to take over anyway.

Because tribes aren't communists societies

The term wasn't even coined until the 1700's, and you're literally the first person I've ever seen label tribes as "ideal communistic societies"

It's akin to calling the Romans of the Roman Empire the idealistic capitalists or some shit

It makes no sense. Sure they have similarities, but that's pretty much where it ends.
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Godnorgosh posted...

Capitalism is decent if you ignore places like Haiti and Taiwan.

idgi, please explain this.
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Richest 20 Americans Own More Wealth Than The Entire Bottom Half Of The Country:
It's bound to end bad. Sooner or later:
http://www.ibtimes.com/richest-20-americans-own-more-wealth-entire-bottom-half-country-report-2206865

Samurontai posted...

Hexenherz posted...

How are those not prime examples of truly communist societies? The basic needs of the society are the primary motivating factors behind the actions of the society, they don't typically have private property, there's little to no "corruption" because there's nothing to fight over except the potential power play for a leadership position, but those are generally very highly revered and protected by religious dogma and deep-rooted tradition... and realistically because of the limited population sizes, there isn't really much room for a potential usurper to multiply influence to take over anyway.

Because tribes aren't communists societies

The term wasn't even coined until the 1700's, and you're literally the first person I've ever seen label tribes as "ideal communistic societies"

It's akin to calling the Romans of the Roman Empire the idealistic capitalists or some shit

It makes no sense. Sure they have similarities, but that's pretty much where it ends.

Just because the modern concept of communism is relatively young doesn't mean the phenomenon or principle can't be applied to something that predates the coining of the term.

averagejoel posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

Is the factory necessary? Is there enough demand for the factory's output to warrant the cost? Well an entrepreneur has to take a chance with a big investment to find out. The workers are able to create value with their labor because the entrepreneur took that chance.

if the factory was owned by the workers, this wouldn't be an issue

Without price, how do you decide to build the factory in the first place? How do you decide when it's time to stop building horses and buggies in favor or something new? How do you measure the efficiency of plan A vs. plan B?
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REMercsChamp posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

REMercsChamp posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

The cartoon seems to imagine that the factory magically descended from the sky rather that from a market actor who made a risky investment.

And?

Is the factory necessary? Is there enough demand for the factory's output to warrant the cost? Well an entrepreneur has to take a chance with a big investment to find out. The workers are able to create value with their labor because the entrepreneur took that chance.

Communism tries to take price out of this equation, and the resulting allocation of resources becomes arbitrary. That's one reason why so many people starve to death in these places.

Up yours

I guess simple cartoons are more your speed.
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Automation is going to put capitalism through an interesting test. Without labor earning money, the system falls apart. If automation lives up to its hype, we'll see really high unemployment rates.
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1337toothbrush posted...

Automation is going to put capitalism through an interesting test. Without labor earning money, the system falls apart. If automation lives up to its hype, we'll see really high unemployment rates.

The Schrödinger's Cat Trilogy explores this idea, and I kind of like what they were driving at.

I really believe we ought to invest in under developed nations and implement these infrastructure and economic changes there before trying to do it in our own countries first. Maybe that's selfish but it seems like a win-win to me.

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tennisdude818 posted...

averagejoel posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

Is the factory necessary? Is there enough demand for the factory's output to warrant the cost? Well an entrepreneur has to take a chance with a big investment to find out. The workers are able to create value with their labor because the entrepreneur took that chance.

if the factory was owned by the workers, this wouldn't be an issue

Without price, how do you decide to build the factory in the first place? How do you decide when it's time to stop building horses and buggies in favor or something new? How do you measure the efficiency of plan A vs. plan B?

you do realize that factories exist already, right?

beyond that, the workers and the community can make decisions democratically
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Communism kills.
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Hexenherz posted...

1337toothbrush posted...

Automation is going to put capitalism through an interesting test. Without labor earning money, the system falls apart. If automation lives up to its hype, we'll see really high unemployment rates.

The Schrödinger's Cat Trilogy explores this idea, and I kind of like what they were driving at.

I really believe we ought to invest in under developed nations and implement these infrastructure and economic changes there before trying to do it in our own countries first. Maybe that's selfish but it seems like a win-win to me.

We can do both. Advancements in developed nations are making their way to less-developed nations to the point of even allowing less-developed nations to skip steps. For example, parts of Africa have skipped land-lines and are using cell phones. Solar power has also been used with success in Africa. Advancements in GMOs would make growing crops easier there, too.

This is separate from things like robots, touch screens, and self-driving cars replacing jobs here, since those are money savers for companies, so they're going to implement them regardless of investments in less-developed nations.
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REMercsChamp posted...

Up yours

I think there's actually more free space up yours, considering that's where you just pulled the OP out of.
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This topic has far too many posts given that it started with a two-frame comic.
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Truth: Capitalism and communism both suck, just in different ways.
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REMercsChamp posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

REMercsChamp posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

The cartoon seems to imagine that the factory magically descended from the sky rather that from a market actor who made a risky investment.

And?

Is the factory necessary? Is there enough demand for the factory's output to warrant the cost? Well an entrepreneur has to take a chance with a big investment to find out. The workers are able to create value with their labor because the entrepreneur took that chance.

Communism tries to take price out of this equation, and the resulting allocation of resources becomes arbitrary. That's one reason why so many people starve to death in these places.

Up yours

Judging by this limp-wristed response, I think it broke. LMAO
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averagejoel posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

averagejoel posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

Is the factory necessary? Is there enough demand for the factory's output to warrant the cost? Well an entrepreneur has to take a chance with a big investment to find out. The workers are able to create value with their labor because the entrepreneur took that chance.

if the factory was owned by the workers, this wouldn't be an issue

Without price, how do you decide to build the factory in the first place? How do you decide when it's time to stop building horses and buggies in favor or something new? How do you measure the efficiency of plan A vs. plan B?

you do realize that factories exist already, right?

beyond that, the workers and the community can make decisions democratically

So we have enough? Humanity has advanced far enough? And production still costs a whole lot, supply chains are complex, and market conditions change. Companies come and go all the time.

"Workers and the community can make decisions democratically" really oversimplifies how a market works. What will auto workers vote for? What will farmers vote for? I don't see how this leads to consumer demands being met. I also don't see how it leads to innovation. Would the candlestick union agree to the mass production of lightbulbs?
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averagejoel posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

averagejoel posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

Is the factory necessary? Is there enough demand for the factory's output to warrant the cost? Well an entrepreneur has to take a chance with a big investment to find out. The workers are able to create value with their labor because the entrepreneur took that chance.

if the factory was owned by the workers, this wouldn't be an issue

Without price, how do you decide to build the factory in the first place? How do you decide when it's time to stop building horses and buggies in favor or something new? How do you measure the efficiency of plan A vs. plan B?

you do realize that factories exist already, right?

beyond that, the workers and the community can make decisions democratically

Do you seriously think large groups of people run themselves autonomously and effectively like that?
Do you think democracy works xd

tennisdude818 posted...

So we have enough? Humanity has advanced far enough? And production still costs a whole lot, supply chains are complex, and market conditions change. Companies come and go all the time.

"Workers and the community can make decisions democratically" really oversimplifies how a market works. What will auto workers vote for? What will farmers vote for? I don't see how this leads to consumer demands being met. I also don't see how it leads to innovation. Would the candlestick union agree to the mass production of lightbulbs?

I'm not particularly interested in educating you. you need to do some reading
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averagejoel posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

So we have enough? Humanity has advanced far enough? And production still costs a whole lot, supply chains are complex, and market conditions change. Companies come and go all the time.

"Workers and the community can make decisions democratically" really oversimplifies how a market works. What will auto workers vote for? What will farmers vote for? I don't see how this leads to consumer demands being met. I also don't see how it leads to innovation. Would the candlestick union agree to the mass production of lightbulbs?

I'm not particularly interested in educating you. you need to do some reading

Lol
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Mandasnake posted...

averagejoel posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

So we have enough? Humanity has advanced far enough? And production still costs a whole lot, supply chains are complex, and market conditions change. Companies come and go all the time.

"Workers and the community can make decisions democratically" really oversimplifies how a market works. What will auto workers vote for? What will farmers vote for? I don't see how this leads to consumer demands being met. I also don't see how it leads to innovation. Would the candlestick union agree to the mass production of lightbulbs?

I'm not particularly interested in educating you. you need to do some reading

Lol

he's asking me to educate him, and his signature, coupled with my experience on this board, suggest that he wouldn't listen no matter what my answer was. so I'm saving my time
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averagejoel posted...

Mandasnake posted...

averagejoel posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

So we have enough? Humanity has advanced far enough? And production still costs a whole lot, supply chains are complex, and market conditions change. Companies come and go all the time.

"Workers and the community can make decisions democratically" really oversimplifies how a market works. What will auto workers vote for? What will farmers vote for? I don't see how this leads to consumer demands being met. I also don't see how it leads to innovation. Would the candlestick union agree to the mass production of lightbulbs?

I'm not particularly interested in educating you. you need to do some reading

Lol

he's asking me to educate him, and his signature, coupled with my experience on this board, suggest that he wouldn't listen no matter what my answer was. so I'm saving my time

So far all of all of your answers are things I've heard many times before. I was curious to hear if you had anything new. I guess you're assuming that because I'm not a communist, I must not know much about it.
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tennisdude818 posted...

averagejoel posted...

Mandasnake posted...

averagejoel posted...

tennisdude818 posted...

So we have enough? Humanity has advanced far enough? And production still costs a whole lot, supply chains are complex, and market conditions change. Companies come and go all the time.

"Workers and the community can make decisions democratically" really oversimplifies how a market works. What will auto workers vote for? What will farmers vote for? I don't see how this leads to consumer demands being met. I also don't see how it leads to innovation. Would the candlestick union agree to the mass production of lightbulbs?

I'm not particularly interested in educating you. you need to do some reading

Lol

he's asking me to educate him, and his signature, coupled with my experience on this board, suggest that he wouldn't listen no matter what my answer was. so I'm saving my time

So far all of all of your answers are things I've heard many times before. I was curious to hear if you had anything new. I guess you're assuming that because I'm not a communist, I must not know much about it.

it's a very safe assumption on this board
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Why is it that communists never have any fucking idea how a business works and what it is employers do?

They literally believe a CEO's job is to sit on a pile of money and bark orders at employees


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Mal_Fet posted...

Why is it that communists never have any fucking idea how a business works and what it is employers do?

They literally believe a CEO's job is to sit on a pile of money and bark orders at employees

In communist countries you don't have to worry about this guy exploiting your labor because everyone gets the same share
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. REMercsChamp posted...

Mal_Fet posted...

Why is it that communists never have any fucking idea how a business works and what it is employers do?

They literally believe a CEO's job is to sit on a pile of money and bark orders at employees

In communist countries you don't have to worry about this guy exploiting your labor because everyone gets the same share

Riiiight. And it's just an accident that the party leaders get a way bigger share than everyone else.

Also, do you really believe a company like Walmart could be controlled equally by all its employees, from cashiers to the door greeters to the accountants? Would they all take a vote on whether to raise the price of toasters, and by how much? Will they all have an equal say in whether they should manufacture Walmart-brand taco shells?
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Communism has killed over 100 million people. Why don't people treat it the same as fascism?
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bourgeois propaganda ITT