Current Events > This new robot can make 400 burgers per hour. Many jobs soon to be displaced

(+) Yeah! (+)

This shouldn't be that big of a problem for jobs in theory. Collateral things like that increase efficiency which can also increase consumer spending by a lot. As a result, fast food managers will have more money to potentially raise capital, which should lead to them hiring former burger flippers as cashiers (something that should never be automated).
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Automation undeniably lowers the cost of goods, something you can verify yourself right now by comparing the cost of mass-produced pieces of clothing at Walmart to the cost you'd pay to have that same article custom made by a tailor. This isn't even in dispute.
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BreezyExcursion posted...

corporation based feudalism is coming very soon

Absolute nonsense. We already have corporation based feudalism. Most people need their employer in order to survive paycheck to paycheck. They depend on their employer for health insurance, vacation time, medical leave, etc.

Automation will pave the way to a level playing field where working out of necessity is a concept of the past.
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Mike_Stanton posted...

cashiers (something that should never be automated).

haven't heard of the automated kiosk?

you press a button to get combo #5 and the machine pops it out

cashier will most definitely be replaced

especially since you don't need them to count change, everyone uses a card just about
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The Admiral posted...

Automation undeniably lowers the cost of goods, something you can verify yourself right now by comparing the cost of mass-produced pieces of clothing at Walmart compared to the cost you'd pay to have that same article custom made by a tailor. This isn't even in dispute.

Exactly.

People can always not support these businesses if they disagree with how they run them.
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The Admiral posted...

Automation undeniably lowers the cost of goods, something you can verify yourself right now by comparing the cost of mass-produced pieces of clothing at Walmart to the cost you'd pay to have that same article custom made by a tailor. This isn't even in dispute.

I mean, the fact that we even have to debate this shows me that CE and the left in general are pretty fucking clueless.
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Clad posted...

The Admiral posted...

Automation undeniably lowers the cost of goods, something you can verify yourself right now by comparing the cost of mass-produced pieces of clothing at Walmart to the cost you'd pay to have that same article custom made by a tailor. This isn't even in dispute.

I mean, the fact that we even have to debate this shows me that CE and the left in general are pretty fucking clueless.

THE LEFT IN GENERAL
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When you say average age, is it median or mean? That one 80 year old burger flipper could greatly affect the mean.
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darkphoenix181 posted...

Mike_Stanton posted...

cashiers (something that should never be automated).

haven't heard of the automated kiosk?

you press a button to get combo #5 and the machine pops it out

cashier will most definitely be replaced

especially since you don't need them to count change, everyone uses a card just about

Of course I (Butters) have heard of that. In fact, I work at a grocery store where I occasionally have to run the self-checkout area. From my experience with doing that, I can tell you that it doesn't beat being served by an actual human being. Although there's a difference between that and the things they have at fast food places, I would say that actual human interaction is an important aspect to any business that emphasizes "customer service."
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As a police recruit my job will probably safe. My current job refrigeration technician will be safe for a long time. Until every restaurant and business all have state of the art equipment that diagnoses and fixes itself
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foreveraIone posted...

ROD posted...

foreveraIone posted...

oh man, i made a topic about this on 261 about automation.

nobody is answering certain questions:

1. What new jobs have been created by automation in the past few decades?
I found some articles and all I found were joke jobs like SOCIAL MEDIA MANAGER

http://www.cnbc.com/2014/04/29/10-jobs-that-werent-around-in-1989.html
(its a sliding site)
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/06/10-jobs-that-didn-t-exist-10-years-ago/

2. If google translate becomes perfect, what's stopping someone from sending engineering and programming jobs over to Ukraine to some dude for 5k a year?

We're going to get fucked massively. Any moderately smart person knows it, but very strong interests out there (e.g. megacorporations, lobbying groups, governments) don't want us to see it, because if people see it they will resist it.

They give people stupid excuses that are easily debunked:

1) "Automation will create new jobs!"

This is a lie. Well, not strictly a lie, but the jobs it creates are not for the same people it displaces, nor is it the same number of jobs.

The best example is, "100,000 truck drivers, aged over 40, with a high school diploma were displaced by self driving trucks, they used to earn 40k a year" and "the jobs generated by truck driver automation is 20 software developer jobs for IT guys with computer science degrees and 4 industry certifications, based in Bangalore, earning 10k a year"

2) "Automation will give us the freedom to be truly creative!"

Yeah that is awesome, if you're a millionaire. People work because they need to earn money. People can't eat creativity or create food and money with their imagination and a box of colored pencils.

3) "Automation will allow people to move up on the job ladder"

Yeah, because horses were able to become Ford or GM CEOs after cars became commonplace. Your average mcdonald's burger flipper or starbucks barista won't get a juicy new job after his job is gone with his current skills.

4) "Only dumb/low skilled people will lose their jobs"

Tell that to translators... and in the future accountants (turbotax), transactional lawyers (legal zoom) and and even website developers (have you seen what wix can do?!)

Also, the jobs that will be the first to be automated will be all the low-skilled ones. Imagine all those angry unemployed construction guys, truck-drivers, retail, fast food, uber drivers and shit?

ITS GONNA BE CRAY. They aren't going to get new work.

Yeah. It's a bit outraging too, because shills in internet message board say real stupid things like "they should go back to college and get a computer science degree and a 4.0 GPA". Yeah... ALL of them. At age 45+. With families. It's not gonna happen.

It's almost a recipe for social unrest.
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Mike_Stanton posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

Mike_Stanton posted...

cashiers (something that should never be automated).

haven't heard of the automated kiosk?

you press a button to get combo #5 and the machine pops it out

cashier will most definitely be replaced

especially since you don't need them to count change, everyone uses a card just about

Of course I (Butters) have heard of that. In fact, I work at a grocery store where I occasionally have to run the self-checkout area. From my experience with doing that, I can tell you that it doesn't beat being served by an actual human being. Although there's a difference between that and the things they have at fast food places, I would say that actual human interaction is an important aspect to any business that emphasizes "customer service."

these lanes are much faster than the one with a human

my grocery has a robot lane as well, with 4 checkouts

lines form where the humans are so if you getting a few items you want the robot not even the human express lane

but I will admit it you have a TON of groceries you want to go to the human

and yes they have an attendent, but that 1 person as opposed to 4 cashiers and 4 bag people
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Clad posted...

fair, next

this is what happens when you feel entitled to more than you produce

It's not about entitlement.
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darkphoenix181 posted...

these lanes are much faster than the one with a human

lmao no...
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Offworlder1 posted...

ROD posted...

foreveraIone posted...

oh man, i made a topic about this on 261 about automation.

nobody is answering certain questions:

1. What new jobs have been created by automation in the past few decades?
I found some articles and all I found were joke jobs like SOCIAL MEDIA MANAGER

http://www.cnbc.com/2014/04/29/10-jobs-that-werent-around-in-1989.html
(its a sliding site)
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/06/10-jobs-that-didn-t-exist-10-years-ago/

2. If google translate becomes perfect, what's stopping someone from sending engineering and programming jobs over to Ukraine to some dude for 5k a year?

(ROD's post here)

Theres too much logic and hard truth here for most people, it will only be when enough people can't feed their family or themselves that they will try to act, and by that time it will be too late. This generation is not one that revolts, rebelling is seen as a bad thing now.

Well I am against revolting. I just don't think it's good (usually).

But there are MANY things we could do, such as write letters and call congressmen and politicians, and actually VOTE responsibly. If a candidate doesn't promise to address the issue, he's getting voted out. If he promises to but doesn't, he gets voted out.

Instead of obsessing over identity politics and other stupid dynamics such as equating political parties to sports teams ("my team is the red sox/republicans so they can do no wrong!) people should make issues such as automation central to the political discourse.
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Spooking posted...

UBI won't be happening until college becomes free or more affordable. Dems and Rebs will avoid UBI until all other options are exhausted.

UBI won't be happening in the lifetimes of anyone in this topic, so the users here should probably get off this idea and start devoting that time to finding ways to acquire in-demand skills that the economy needs right now. We have an all-time high in job openings in the U.S., so we're a good century away from a UBI discussion.

If anything, the focus should be on how to train these unemployed CEmen with useless liberal arts degrees to contribute in fields where there is a strong lack of skilled workers.
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Spooking posted...

UBI won't be happening until college becomes free or more affordable

Ubi won't happen because nobody has yet to come up with a realistic way to pay for it
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The Admiral posted...

If anything, the focus should be on how to train these unemployed CEman with useless liberal arts degrees to contribute in fields where there is a strong lack of skilled workers.

But then they wouldn't be able to fear monger and shitpost like modern-day Luddites.
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John_Galt posted...

Spooking posted...

UBI won't be happening until college becomes free or more affordable

Ubi won't happen because nobody has yet to come up with a realistic way to pay for it

tax the robots!
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Mike_Stanton posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

these lanes are much faster than the one with a human

lmao no...

you srs?

I went to walmart with my family before and they waited in the shortest line that had a human. I was done 5 minutes before they were thanks to the robots.
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I'd better apply soon!!
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Clad posted...

The Admiral posted...

Automation undeniably lowers the cost of goods, something you can verify yourself right now by comparing the cost of mass-produced pieces of clothing at Walmart to the cost you'd pay to have that same article custom made by a tailor. This isn't even in dispute.

I mean, the fact that we even have to debate this shows me that CE and the left in general are pretty fucking clueless.

Don't really get why other people in the left don't understand that automation is a good thing. Like if you take a look at the sort of things the left wants, you see that it works best in a post-scarcity society. To get that, you need automation and renewable energy sources to advance significantly so the cost of living becomes fairly insignificant.
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darkphoenix181 posted...

Mike_Stanton posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

these lanes are much faster than the one with a human

lmao no...

you srs?

I went to walmart with my family before and they waited in the shortest line that had a human. I was done 5 minutes before they were thanks to the robots.

The problem is that the slowest, computer-illiterate customers try to use the self-checkouts and end up slowing everything down.
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uwnim posted...

Clad posted...

The Admiral posted...

Automation undeniably lowers the cost of goods, something you can verify yourself right now by comparing the cost of mass-produced pieces of clothing at Walmart to the cost you'd pay to have that same article custom made by a tailor. This isn't even in dispute.

I mean, the fact that we even have to debate this shows me that CE and the left in general are pretty fucking clueless.

Don't really get why other people in the left don't understand that automation is a good thing. Like if you take a look at the sort of things the left wants, you see that it works best in a post-scarcity society. To get that, you need automation and renewable energy sources to advance significantly so the cost of living becomes fairly insignificant.

It's because this is one of those things where for whatever reason the left has identified automation as being the "not left" position and therefore they're going to oppose it out of principle.

It's completely irrational and not based in any fact or evidence.
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automation is coming no matter what. might as well try to figure out ways to get it right rather than resist it
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uwnim posted...

Don't really get why other people in the left don't understand that automation is a good thing. Like if you take a look at the sort of things the left wants, you see that it works best in a post-scarcity society. To get that, you need automation and renewable energy sources to advance significantly so the cost of living becomes fairly insignificant.

It seems to be happening with no social gain and thus we're heading towards a global society with it's first trillionaires, and an otherwise valueless population.
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uwnim posted...

Don't really get why other people in the left don't understand that automation is a good thing. Like if you take a look at the sort of things the left wants, you see that it works best in a post-scarcity society. To get that, you need automation and renewable energy sources to advance significantly so the cost of living becomes fairly insignificant.

I think it's because they see it as an excuse to justify expansion of a welfare state. There is no other good reason. Their anti-progress views on this are incredibly conservative in any other context.
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_OujiDoza_ posted...

The problem is that the slowest, computer-illiterate customers try to use the self-checkouts and end up slowing everything down.

Until there's a tangible benefit beyond theoretical time, self-checkouts can fuck right off.
If the person who would take ten minutes to check out my purchase no longer exists, then I should get at least a $1.25 discount for doing it my damn self.

_OujiDoza_ posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

Mike_Stanton posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

these lanes are much faster than the one with a human

lmao no...

you srs?

I went to walmart with my family before and they waited in the shortest line that had a human. I was done 5 minutes before they were thanks to the robots.

The problem is that the slowest, computer-illiterate customers try to use the self-checkouts and end up slowing everything down.

actually they just go to the human checkout

that why my family waits in line 5 min longer instead of going to the robot

now question yourself

how long will there be computer illiterate people? kids today get iphones at age 5
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tbh i use the self checkouts and I'm out of there quickly
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ThyCorndog posted...

tbh i use the self checkouts and I'm out of there quickly

That's mostly to do with how the queue system works than the checkouts themselves.

A single line parsing people to available stations is more efficient than each station having it's own line.
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Living wage here we come
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Questionmarktarius posted...

_OujiDoza_ posted...

The problem is that the slowest, computer-illiterate customers try to use the self-checkouts and end up slowing everything down.

Until there's a tangible benefit beyond theoretical time, self-checkouts can fuck right off.
If the person who would take ten minutes to check out my purchase no longer exists, then I should get at least a $1.25 discount for doing it my damn self.

Preach, Preacha!

darkphoenix181 posted...

actually they just go to the human checkout

that why my family waits in line 5 min longer instead of going to the robot

now question yourself

how long will there be computer illiterate people? kids today get iphones at age 5

Man, where I live EVERYBODY goes through self-checkout; from the younger to the old folks...I'm all for it, don't get me wrong, but one time a chick went through it trying to process her WIC CHECKS...I mean come on.

It's like the idiots that go through the express lane with more than the designated maximum amount of items...it's not for fucking everyone, but everyone seems to feel entitled to it just because they are the customer.

As long as assholes exist that think they aren't part of the problem and slow everyone else down with zero fucks given, self check and other niceties will never reach their true potential, is all I'm saying.
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darkphoenix181 posted...

Mike_Stanton posted...

darkphoenix181 posted...

these lanes are much faster than the one with a human

lmao no...

you srs?

I went to walmart with my family before and they waited in the shortest line that had a human. I was done 5 minutes before they were thanks to the robots.

That would depend on how short the lines are compared to the self-scan lines, how many items you have, and how skilled you are at using the self-scan lanes. I myself prefer using self-scan when I get something to eat during my break, but with big orders there's typically so many issues that come up that it slows everything down. And even for me, the main reason I don't have problems using it is because I know all the ins and outs by virtue of working there. Anyways, there have been studies showing that self-checkout lanes are slower than human cashier lanes...

http://www.nacsonline.com/Media/Daily/Pages/ND1011133.aspx?wb48617274=698ABD97#.WUf2-YWcHIU
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E32005 posted...

Living wage here we come

In the current situation, it looks like $8 should be the minimum.
$8 * 29 hours per week * 52 weeks in a year = $12064. Almost exactly the poverty line for an individual.

If anything, you can thank Obama for the 29-hour workweek.

darkphoenix181 posted...

how long will there be computer illiterate people? kids today get iphones at age 5

Kids that use those things are among the worst at causing problems that require an attendant. And they usually are just there to buy a few bags of candy.
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John_Galt posted...

Spooking posted...

UBI won't be happening until college becomes free or more affordable

Ubi won't happen because nobody has yet to come up with a realistic way to pay for it

it will NOT happen. But that's because people don't want it to happen.

A "robot tax" would pay for it. So somebody comes up with a machine that displaces 500,000 burger flippers? Well each burger flipper used to pay $20 into social security and mickey's d's used to pay $30 per person for payroll taxes a month.

So multiply 500,000 by 50 and BOOM, that's the total robot tax they will pay. That goes towards UBI funding.
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Taxing robots would be an insane thing to do.

Because then you'd have to figure out where to draw the line. Do you tax wireless routers? Do you tax scripts and command line tools? Software in general? Software in general is all about automating and building intelligent systems.

Not to mention that taxing robots would prevent costs from dropping, and it'd slow down the progress to a post-work society.
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ROD posted...

John_Galt posted...

Spooking posted...

UBI won't be happening until college becomes free or more affordable

Ubi won't happen because nobody has yet to come up with a realistic way to pay for it

it will NOT happen. But that's because people don't want it to happen.

A "robot tax" would pay for it. So somebody comes up with a machine that displaces 500,000 burger flippers? Well each burger flipper used to pay $20 into social security and mickey's d's used to pay $30 per person for payroll taxes a month.

So multiply 500,000 by 50 and BOOM, that's the total robot tax they will pay. That goes towards UBI funding.

Sorry ROD, your math is a bit off.

There is no way to come close to paying for it. Even the lowest estimates of UBI -- where the payment is set equal to the poverty level -- is still higher than the entire current budget of the U.S. And this is without paying for a single other government function.

The world does simply not produce anywhere close to a level that supports a UBI. And based on even the most aggressive growth estimates, it won't happen this century.
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Clad posted...

Not to mention that taxing robots would prevent costs from dropping, and it'd slow down the progress to a post-work society.

You'd be assuming that costs would go down anyway...these companies aren't saints; they aren't gonna suddenly play nice just because they no longer have to pay a person.
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ROD posted...

A "robot tax" would pay for it. So somebody comes up with a machine that displaces 500,000 burger flippers? Well each burger flipper used to pay $20 into social security and mickey's d's used to pay $30 per person for payroll taxes a month.

So, you want the guy who lost his job to a burger-bot to pay more for a hamburger?

The Admiral posted...

- is still higher than the entire GDP of the U.S.

The $18.46 trillion GDP would divide into 324m Americans into $56k.
Of course no one is suggesting the GPD would put used on a UBI, nor that it should have to go to every American regardless of age, but I'm sure you knew that when you made that ridiculous statement.

You do understand the the GDP =/= budget right?
You post is a red herring on every single level.
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Clad posted...

Taxing robots would be an insane thing to do.

Because then you'd have to figure out where to draw the line. Do you tax wireless routers? Do you tax scripts and command line tools? Software in general? Software in general is all about automating and building intelligent systems.

Not to mention that taxing robots would prevent costs from dropping, and it'd slow down the progress to a post-work society.

It doesn't matter how low the cost of something can get if nobody has money to afford it, does it?

It's really simple. Come up with a date (say, 2020). All tasks that used to be made by humans at that time are the ones that will create the robot tax.

You don't tax wireless routers (lmao), but you tax self driving trucks and burger flipping machines. If an algorythm comes up that will leave financial advisors in the streets that also goes away.

Basically if the state used to get FICA/Payroll Tax on something and now they won't because some greedy fuck automated a job, that same money will now be robot tax money.

There is no wireless router FICA.
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Questionmarktarius posted...

ROD posted...

A "robot tax" would pay for it. So somebody comes up with a machine that displaces 500,000 burger flippers? Well each burger flipper used to pay $20 into social security and mickey's d's used to pay $30 per person for payroll taxes a month.

So, you want the guy who lost his job to a burger-bot to pay more for a hamburger?

He won't be able to afford even a $1 burger without any money will he?

His burger will not be more expensive, anyway. Before his company paid taxes, now they will pay the same taxes but for a different concept, and they won't be paying him wages or vacations or medical insurance.
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Its pretty clear the whole UBI thing can't work for America. Maybe if oil was still viable in 25 years Norway or Qatar could do it...
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Anarchy_Juiblex posted...

The Admiral posted...

- is still higher than the entire GDP of the U.S.

The $18.46 trillion GDP would divide into 324m Americans into $56k.
Of course no one is suggesting the GPD would put used on a UBI, nor that it should have to go to every American regardless of age, but I'm sure you knew that when you made that ridiculous statement.

You do understand the the GDP =/= budget right?
You post is a red herring on every single level.

Going by actual reality instead of hyperbole, the numbers still aren't great.

If this site can be trusted:
http://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/tables/99-total-population-by-child-and-adult#detailed/1/any/false/573,869,36,868,867/39,40,41/416,417
...there's about 250 million adults. Sending all of them a check for the individual poverty line of $12060 comes up to $3,015,000,000,000.
Total federal revenue for 2016 was $3.5 trillion. That leaves roughly $485 billion for infrastructure, defense, and other.

foreveraIone posted...

Its pretty clear the whole UBI thing can't work for America. Maybe if oil was still viable in 25 years Norway or Qatar could do it...

UBI will never happen here, I agree.

Simply, there are too many interests that don't want it. And they can brainwash people like proudclad or addy into being against it too, because you know, bootstraps, and because the lower class, rural or uneducated people have somehow been convinced that they're not truly lower class or uneducated, but merely "millionaires in a temporal state of distress". What's good for the CEOs and majority stockholders is good for them too, because someday they will be that themselves! (lmao)
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But can it feel love?
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