Board 8 > Do some people really not like Walter White?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Gatarix posted...

So yeah you could call it an adolescent power fantasy, and it leads to a lot of reprehensible actions, but I still liked it as power fantasy. This middle-aged middle-class nobody becoming the kingpin Heisenberg. No matter how far he took it, I couldn't stop rooting for him.

Yeah that's fine. I think you're allowed to like characters that are bad people, and root for them to be on top. I don't like Walt as a person, but I think he's a good character, and that kept me watching the show. I think most people ITT who said they don't like Walt expressed similar opinions.

But, there's a difference between all that and unironically claiming Walter White did nothing wrong.
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liked Walt the whole way through, rooted for him the whole way through
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Wasn't Brock a Sonic fan?
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Jeez not saying he was a saint.

He was manipulative as fuck, but still in a delusional this is for the best kind of way.
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Can we get back to the bizarre claim that the Joker is well-written?
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pjbasis posted...

but still in a delusional this is for the best kind of way.

Maybe in the very, very beginning, but that went away super quickly once he put on the hat and became Heisenberg.

The 'Say my name' and 'I am the one who knocks' stuff, he loved having that power more than anything else after living his life in perpetual mediocrity.
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nerdy little science "Bitch" .

PerfectChaosZ posted...

Oh yeah I totally felt the remorse when he smugly told Jesse to his face just to destroy him with the last thing he'll ever hear.

Yeah that totally happened in S2 and not literally 40 episodes later
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Nanis23 posted...

I never felt like he could stop making meth

$737k

That's what he needed to support his family

I'll let you figure out how early in the series he had access to that much
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You can enjoy your power trip and still think it's for ultimately for the best.
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foolm0r0n posted...

PerfectChaosZ posted...

Oh yeah I totally felt the remorse when he smugly told Jesse to his face just to destroy him with the last thing he'll ever hear.

Yeah that totally happened in S2 and not literally 40 episodes later

So he felt remorse about literally letting someone innocent his surrogate son loved die but only for like six months max when he never seemed to express any indication that he even remembered that happened till he needed more fuel to crush Jesse with. What a paragon of virtue.

He shows pretty real remorse in that episode with the fly. Gloating about killing Jane in S5 is just a spur of the moment thing he does because he's pissed off. Also it's part of the "hey Walt is BAD let's beat you over the head with it" initiative in S5.

In any case I'd trust sleep deprived delirious Walt's feelings as genuine over ragemonster Walt even ignoring S5's tendency to force certain things.
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KamikazePotato posted...

Remember when Walter was offered a cushy, high-paying job by his old friends that would have solved all his money problems, and didn't take it because of an egotistical grudge, preferring to literally cook & sell meth instead?

It wasn't just an egotistical grudge. His "old friends" literally took his research and used it to make themselves rich.
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Also he didn't manipulate Jesse into killing Gale just for no reason. He did it because they literally had no other option, Mike was about to take him to the lab and kill him. Gale was the only other person capable of cooking Walt's formula and removing him was the one thing capable of keeping both he and Jesse alive.

So yes, that's part of the genius of Breaking Bad. The amount of horrific things Walt is forced to do, and how many of them you stay on his side for because of the horrific alternatives.
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I remember thinking the show turned Walt into a cartoon villain between two episodes. I want to say 5-3 and 5-4? It took me out of the show because it seemed obvious to me the writers went "ok, now he's just gonna be pure evil".
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FFDragon posted...

pjbasis posted...

but still in a delusional this is for the best kind of way.

Maybe in the very, very beginning, but that went away super quickly once he put on the hat and became Heisenberg.

The 'Say my name' and 'I am the one who knocks' stuff, he loved having that power more than anything else after living his life in perpetual mediocrity.

For sure. That's what makes him flawed and interesting and villainous. Unlikable is a bad word
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I think unlikable is pretty solid in this situation.

And yeah, his manipulations of Jesse weren't without reason but the entire show is about how Walt manipulates someone much dumber than him for his own purposes.
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That's a recurring theme but not really what the show is about imo. I'd say Walt cleans up Jesse's messes, oftentimes to his own detriment, more often than he manipulates him.
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Walt tries to keep Jesse alive so hard too
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Of course Walt loves Jesse, he never says it but he treats Jesse sort of as the son he "never had" because Jesse can participate fully in the part of his live he loves while Jr. cannot. That's why he fights to keep him alive in S3 when Gus would have him killed. He didn't kill Jane primarily to manipulate/hurt Jesse, it was firstly because she was dangerous and unstable and threatened to ruin Walt's life of crime, and secondly because she was very bad for Jesse(turned him into a heroin addict, remember?)

One of Walt's characteristics is his pragmatism which is what drives him to do normally unconscionable things like having Jesse murder Gale or poisoning Brock. He does the things he thinks he needs to do in order to stay alive, or to stay ahead of his enemies, or both.
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PerfectChaosZ posted...

So he felt remorse about literally letting someone innocent his surrogate son loved die but only for like six months max when he never seemed to express any indication that he even remembered that happened till he needed more fuel to crush Jesse with

Pretty much?

But it was clear that when he was in that room it was a tough decision. But he was glad he did it, which I guess makes him not so remorseful. Similar to killing Krazy 8.

Still, it is definitely an important thing he thinks about a lot. The reference in Fly is one thing, but the fact that he uses it as THE megaton to drop on Jesse, the person he hated the most at that moment, proves that he realizes it's one of the worst and most cruel things he's ever done, which he continues to carry with him.
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foolm0r0n posted...

PerfectChaosZ posted...

So he felt remorse about literally letting someone innocent his surrogate son loved die but only for like six months max when he never seemed to express any indication that he even remembered that happened till he needed more fuel to crush Jesse with

Pretty much?

But it was clear that when he was in that room it was a tough decision. But he was glad he did it, which I guess makes him not so remorseful. Similar to killing Krazy 8.

Still, it is definitely an important thing he thinks about a lot. The reference in Fly is one thing, but the fact that he uses it as THE megaton to drop on Jesse, the person he hated the most at that moment, proves that he realizes it's one of the worst and most cruel things he's ever done, which he continues to carry with him.

It was just the most terrible thing he ever did directly to Jesse that Jesse didn't already know about. And he knew it would crush him too.

KingBartz posted...

Of course Walt loves Jesse, he never says it but he treats Jesse sort of as the son he "never had" because Jesse can participate fully in the part of his live he loves while Jr. cannot. That's why he fights to keep him alive in S3 when Gus would have him killed. He didn't kill Jane primarily to manipulate/hurt Jesse, it was firstly because she was dangerous and unstable and threatened to ruin Walt's life of crime, and secondly because she was very bad for Jesse(turned him into a heroin addict, remember?)

One of Walt's characteristics is his pragmatism which is what drives him to do normally unconscionable things like having Jesse murder Gale or poisoning Brock. He does the things he thinks he needs to do in order to stay alive, or to stay ahead of his enemies, or both.

THANK YOU. It's as if people can't see any of this. I felt like Walter was justified in many of the things he did. I will admit it was his fault for what happened to many people in season 5. Damn it man, all you had to do was throw away that book and everything (maybe not Jesse) would have ended perfectly.

On that note, he really tried to help Jesse towards the end of the show and Jesse was going crazy throwing his money away like an idiot. I get he felt terrible because of the kid but doing what he did wasn't safe or smart.

What a great show.
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PerfectChaosZ posted...

It was just the most terrible thing he ever did directly to Jesse that Jesse didn't already know about. And he knew it would crush him too.

I guess Jesse knew about Brock by that point already. But did Walt know that Jesse knew?
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Zazabar posted...

I felt like Walter was justified in many of the things he did

He justifies everything to himself, but so does every evil person in history.

If his actions are justified to you, then YOU totally missed the point.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

Can we get back to the bizarre claim that the Joker is well-written?

Joker is a great character


"More topics from this board..."

Wow, some of the B8 is ridiculously lame-ass.
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Many of the reprehensible things that Walt says are typically part of an overarching plan, and doesn't always mean what he says. He's willing to drag his own reputation through the mud to get what he thinks is best.

S5 I believe him saying the things he did to Jessie was just to allow Jessie to not feel any remorse for killing Walt. This lets Jessie be free of the whole mess and allows him to finally move on. Of course, he doesn't do it.
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Damn that's actually true
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I never disliked him and always rooted for him
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shadosneko posted...

S5 I believe him saying the things he did to Jessie was just to allow Jessie to not feel any remorse for killing Walt. This lets Jessie be free of the whole mess and allows him to finally move on. Of course, he doesn't do it.

I was going to say that as well with the fly post but I forgot the exact context when he said that stuff

It would be consistent to how he flipped out on Skyler to basically exonerate her of being in on his drug dealings

Definitely would make sense especially with how he saves Jesse from the Nazis later and shields him from gunfire with his body. Like obviously he still cares about Jesse.
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ExThaNemesis posted...

It wasn't just an egotistical grudge. His "old friends" literally took his research and used it to make themselves rich.

That's Walt's side of the story (and even then, I don't recall him ever outright discrediting them like that). We never got the truth because that part of his life was never elaborated on in much detail.

Anyway, Walt did some monstrous things as early as Season 2, but fans still liked him because he was written as a likable character, because he was somewhat of a plucky underdog the entire time, and because the other main character, Jesse, was a pretty unlikable douche through most of the first three seasons.

This only really changed in season five when the writers decided to paint Walt in a much less sympathetic light. IIRC they pulled this off in a few ways

- Making him openly disrespectful toward Mike. This didn't sit well with fans since everyone LOVED Mike.
- Turning him into a super creepy pervert with Skylar. No one liked Skylar, but creepy old pervs are never popular.
- Allying him with the white power gang, who were super lame and uninteresting compared to the show's earlier antagonists
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Yeah my god the white power gang were a horrid final boss

but the way Walt solo'd them was pretty satisfying.
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Whoa whoa

Saying Jesse was unlikable is even worse than saying Walt was. Dude was a lovable loser most of the time imo
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Walter was only likable because the people he surrounded himself with were whiny (Skyler, Walt Jr, Jesse, Marie, Hank, etc), and no one enjoys whiny characters.

The side characters such as Saul, Mike, and Gus were always leagues better than Walter.
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I haven't watched the show but what little I've heard about it...

My impression can be summed up by a single trope:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarknessInducedAudienceApathy

Villain protagonists have to be enjoyably evil and from what I've read in this thread, even from the people praising him, he just sounds cringey evil. Like, "never my fault" except when we're supposed to feel bad for him when he blames himself or something (if he ever does)

And apparently the writers had to surround him with whiney people just to make him remotely relatable in the first place, which is not a good sign.

I'm glad I gave this show a miss, then.
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I don't know, I kind of liked the nazis. I thought they were entertaining especially with how they joked with Todd about wanting to bang Lydia. And Todd was a charming psycho.
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Lots of interesting commentary here. I think an undeniable aspect of Walter White's charisma -- maybe likeability wasn't the right word, but people enjoyed watching him -- that charisma came from the performance of Brian Cranston. This was a top-of-his-generation performance that came from the silly premise of "What if a chemistry teacher started selling meth?"

The writing, directing, and nearly everything else about the show was already really really good. Cranston nailed this great opportunity though in a way few actors ever could. As goofy as the first season was in his fumbling and as awful as he was by the end, every step of the way Cranston made him feel human and that was a huge draw to the show.
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I'll also add that one of the last things I remember realo posted around here was about how Breaking Bad had a bunch of commentary on the white male power fantasy. I wish he had elaborated on that because I've heard that about Fight Club before and wondered what the analysis for those two would be like, you know, beyond "white loser goes on to beat some ass."
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OliviaTremor posted...

He's pretty much an egotistical dick.

That's why he's so great!

HaRRicH posted...

I'll also add that one of the last things I remember realo posted around here was about how Breaking Bad had a bunch of commentary on the white male power fantasy. I wish he had elaborated on that because I've heard that about Fight Club before and wondered what the analysis for those two would be like, you know, beyond "white loser goes on to beat some ass."

I miss realopinions
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Walter White is great because he doesn't give a fuck about anyone else at the height of his power. Everybody secretly wants to be that guy. I know I'd love the power and money, but more than anything the sheer feeling of superiority that comes with making the best meth ever because you were smarter than everyone else. He should have been a billionaire. He got a second chance and he took it. I find that very appealing and that's why I like him so much. I don't care if he's done terrible things, he did what he wanted and there are so many people in the world who don't live for themselves that sometimes it's refreshing to see someone throw all that shit out the window and just take the world by storm. Great show. Lots of great quotes too. That last conversation with Skyler in particular.

BowserCuffs posted...

I haven't watched the show but what little I've heard about it...

Respectfully, you have no idea what you're talking about and sound ignorant
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Gatarix posted...

I found Walt likable all the way. Obviously he does a lot of terrible things but I still found myself rooting for him the whole time.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

It's very important to also note that while Walt says he's doing things to help his family, their well-being matters less to him than the fact that they're relying on him and he's helping them on his own terms. He's managed to turn helping people he cares about into something selfish.

I mean, all of this is 100% true. But I guess I just sympathize with Walt's particular brand of selfishness.

Here's a guy who once had dreams and ambitions, but has settled for mediocrity in every aspect of his life -- his dead-end job, his dead-end family relationships. He's burnt out. He's just going through the motions of life, and were it not for his cancer, he would have continued doing so until he died. Meth changes all that: he can finally be the best. His name is known and feared. He can live life on his own terms. (Sorta. I mean, it's not perfect, but better than being the browbeaten husband who can't even decide who's invited to his own party.)

So yeah you could call it an adolescent power fantasy, and it leads to a lot of reprehensible actions, but I still liked it as power fantasy. This middle-aged middle-class nobody becoming the kingpin Heisenberg. No matter how far he took it, I couldn't stop rooting for him.

Yeah, ditto. There's millions of people just like Walt out there. People who live mediocre, unfulfilling lives. Walt blows that out of the water and takes charge of his life. He became a crimelord and outsmarted so many different people along the way. I liked all of it, and I didn't find him that terrible. The people he killed were scum anyway. The poisoned kid? Eh, his mom dies anyway. Probably better off dead.

Dfy556 posted...

Walter White is great because he doesn't give a fuck about anyone else at the height of his power. Everybody secretly wants to be that guy. I know I'd love the power and money, but more than anything the sheer feeling of superiority that comes with making the best meth ever because you were smarter than everyone else. He should have been a billionaire. He got a second chance and he took it. I find that very appealing and that's why I like him so much. I don't care if he's done terrible things, he did what he wanted and there are so many people in the world who don't live for themselves that sometimes it's refreshing to see someone throw all that shit out the window and just take the world by storm. Great show. Lots of great quotes too. That last conversation with Skyler in particular.

Sociopath alert.
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BowserCuffs posted...

I haven't watched the show but what little I've heard about it...

My impression can be summed up by a single trope:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarknessInducedAudienceApathy

Villain protagonists have to be enjoyably evil and from what I've read in this thread, even from the people praising him, he just sounds cringey evil. Like, "never my fault" except when we're supposed to feel bad for him when he blames himself or something (if he ever does)

And apparently the writers had to surround him with whiney people just to make him remotely relatable in the first place, which is not a good sign.

I'm glad I gave this show a miss, then.

What an ignorant post. You sound like you don't want to believe the show is good.
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shadosneko posted...

Many of the reprehensible things that Walt says are typically part of an overarching plan, and doesn't always mean what he says. He's willing to drag his own reputation through the mud to get what he thinks is best.

S5 I believe him saying the things he did to Jessie was just to allow Jessie to not feel any remorse for killing Walt. This lets Jessie be free of the whole mess and allows him to finally move on. Of course, he doesn't do it.

Umm, you realize he thought Jesse was dead until he heard about blue meth showing back up from Badger and Skinny Pete WELL AFTER the shit he said to him, right? Unless you're just talking about that very last conversation, but he didn't even say anything bad during it so I'm not sure what the point is.
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BowserCuffs posted...

I haven't watched the show

Wow your opinion will definitely be really insightful then
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CaptainOfCrush posted...

- Turning him into a super creepy pervert with Skylar. No one liked Skylar, but creepy old pervs are never popular.

This happened in S2. Y'all need to rewatch for sure.
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^thought that was Season 1...been a minute.
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I thought it was S1 too, it's when he's bald, but there's only 1.5 episodes of S1 where he's bald. Might be the first episode of S2 actually.
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