Current Events > Basic Income: A Radical Proposal for a Free Society and a Sane Economy

(+) Yeah! (+)

It's an amazing read. Everyone should read it.

@Antifar
@The_Admiral
@RebelElite791
@hockeybub89
@VipaGTS
@CruelBuffalo
@shockthemonkey
@Balrog0
@Darkman124
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Tag
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I believe Proudclad/Logos just picked this up.
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CowboyDan posted...

I believe Proudclad/Logos just picked this up.

That's me. My main was suspended because of the topic I made about the MOAB.
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Oh. That makes sense.
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-.-
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I saw your other topic about UBI

And I agree with a lot of what you're saying

Mostly so I could work fewer hours to focus more on school
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I don't think we should crush the factory owners with taxes like that.
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Missing a link here?

I'm basically pro UBI but one thing a lot of UBI experiments don't touch on are the macroeconomic impacts since the demonstrations are usually small scale.

Another issue is the politics ofc
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I'm not well versed enough in the concepts of UBI to form an opinion. Why didn't Rebels tag work?

Because he got warned for basically calling Admiral a Nazi sympathizer
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CruelBuffalo posted...

I'm not well versed enough ... to form an opinion.

Frankly, I'm not sure I know how to respond to such an honest and unpretentious post like this on ce
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Balrog0 posted...

Missing a link here?

I'm basically pro UBI but one thing a lot of UBI experiments don't touch on are the macroeconomic impacts since the demonstrations are usually small scale.

Another issue is the politics ofc

https://www.amazon.com/Basic-Income-Radical-Proposal-Society-ebook/dp/B06XV98MPW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1492367418&sr=8-1&keywords=basic+income+a+radical+proposal
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Couple of questions.

1) Does it address where all the money comes from?

2) If it comes from just taxing people more, does the book address what incentive those people have to work more?

3) Does the book address price inflation of goods and services that comes with everyone having more wealth?
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Nomadic View posted...

1) Does it address where all the money comes from?

There are a few possibilities. Various types of taxes are all possibilities, but there's also stuff like the Alaskan dividend. The tl;dr of the Alaskan dividend is that Alaska invested money it made from oil into a global portfolio that generates a dividend for each citizen of Alaska each year. The largest its ever been is a little over $2,000 per year, and the potential for each state to do that is proven. America is a very wealthy country.

Not to mention that we'd save a lot of money by eliminating all the expensive social programs that attempt to alleviate poverty through invasive and dehumanizing tests like employment tests.

Nomadic View posted...

2) If it comes from just taxing people more, does the book address what incentive those people have to work more?

Some people might choose to not work, but that already happens in our current welfare state. It'd be better to give everyone a non-invasive social safety net in the form of a universal basic income, than to keep growing the welfare state in its current form. That way everyone benefits. And if some people choose not to work because of UBI, there will be plenty more who choose to become entrepreneurs. Keep in mind that many people who would like a better job, better education, entrepreneurial ventures, etc, are unable to pursue them because they're slaves to their employers.

The net effect of a UBI on employment would likely be a positive one, especially in a climate where we're seeing too many workers and not enough jobs.

Nomadic View posted...

3) Does the book address price inflation of goods and services that comes with everyone having more wealth?

That isn't a real risk, except for maybe some minor inflation restricted to certain local areas that are now seeing more economic activity. Example: if everyone in Detroit was given $1200 a month in cash, you'd expect Detroit to surge. Homes would be built, businesses would grow, etc. Prices would go up a bit, but only because the market there is so depressed due to their economic collapse.

Overall, inflation wouldn't happen if we redistributed spending power. It'd only happen if we printed money or borrowed money to increase spending power.
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Never read that, but as a member of the Pirate Party, I do know what that is.
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@Mal_Fet
@Questionmarktarius
@AssultTank
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax

Questionmarktarius posted...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax

Book addresses this too. Basically, it's a close alternative to a UBI but it lists a few ways in which it isn't as good as UBI. *shrug*
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meingott posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax

Book addresses this too. Basically, it's a close alternative to a UBI but it lists a few ways in which it isn't as good as UBI. *shrug*

Examples, please.

meingott posted...

Example: if everyone in Detroit was given $1200 a month in cash

I'm convinced that everyone who thinks universal basic income is a good idea is numerically illiterate.

$1200/month/person * 12 months/year = $14400/year/person
$14400/year/person * 319 million people = $4.6 trillion/year

The federal budget is about $3.8 trillion. So, again: Where will the money come from?
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Manocheese posted...

The federal budget is about $3.8 trillion. So, again: Where will the money come from?

Simple. Tax the fuck out everything past the UBI, then wonder why the economy is in a death-spiral, nobody wants to actually work, and anyone with wealth is emigrating away. Soon after that, start up the mandatory collective work-farms, and 'disappear' dissidents and undesirables at two or three in the morning.

Manocheese posted...

meingott posted...

Example: if everyone in Detroit was given $1200 a month in cash

I'm convinced that everyone who thinks universal basic income is a good idea is numerically illiterate.

$1200/month/person * 12 months/year = $14400/year/person
$14400/year/person * 319 million people = $4.6 trillion

The federal budget is about $3.8 trillion. So, again: Where will the money come from?

money is fake so we can just pretend $120 is as valuable as $1200, now we're just spending what 460 billion?
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These discussions are ridiculous. You know how much money that would cost? And then you need to consider other aspects of life like health care. Car insurance. Insurance for this. Insurance for that.

Budgets for other things that don't involve giving people free money. Like you need money for all this and taxing rich folks isn't gonna give you all that. And if it did there'd be no reason to work.

There's a reason why so many technological advances happened in the 19th century and 18th century. They had reason to work for it.
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Manocheese posted...

$1200/month/person * 12 months/year = $14400/year/person
$14400/year/person * 319 million people = $4.6 trillion/year

And 14,400 a year is like, the poverty line for an individual.
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Manocheese posted...

meingott posted...

Example: if everyone in Detroit was given $1200 a month in cash

I'm convinced that everyone who thinks universal basic income is a good idea is numerically illiterate.

$1200/month/person * 12 months/year = $14400/year/person
$14400/year/person * 319 million people = $4.6 trillion/year

The federal budget is about $3.8 trillion. So, again: Where will the money come from?

It'd only be given to adults most likely
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UBI really isn't feasible now but it will be once all that "bad" stuff like automation really takes off.

emblem boy posted...

It'd only be given to adults most likely

That still leaves about 260 million people. Cutting a check to each of those for $12000 would total roughly $3,120,000,000,000

Also you'll be instantly accused of starving children if you even suggest such a thing.

Antifar posted...

And 14,400 a year is like, the poverty line for an individual.

$12060
https://www.healthcare.gov/glossary/federal-poverty-level-FPL/
Also, it's basic income. Basic.

Manocheese posted...

meingott posted...

Example: if everyone in Detroit was given $1200 a month in cash

I'm convinced that everyone who thinks universal basic income is a good idea is numerically illiterate.

$1200/month/person * 12 months/year = $14400/year/person
$14400/year/person * 319 million people = $4.6 trillion/year

The federal budget is about $3.8 trillion. So, again: Where will the money come from?

Don't forget that unless the government does significant tax reform, there's going to be significant decrease in tax revenue as people are replaced with robots who don't earn a salary and thus don't pay income taxes.

UBI is one of those things that sounds great in theory, but really doesn't have any footing in being a successful policy.
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Already read it. It's a dumb idea and it always will be.
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The arguments against a UBI ITT are not well founded or well researched
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Nomadic View posted...

Couple of questions.

1) Does it address where all the money comes from?

2) If it comes from just taxing people more, does the book address what incentive those people have to work more?

3) Does the book address price inflation of goods and services that comes with everyone having more wealth?

1) Imagine you got 100 factory workers, each earning 1000 bucks. They earn 10,000 a month then, and it generates 2,000 of tax revenue per month (all workers' tax together).

Acme Co. replaces those 100 workers with a machine. The machine replaced them. Well, goodbye $2,000 tax revenue. Tax Acme on the lost revenue, tax acme $2,000.

That $2,000 won't equal the lost salaries (it's roughly $20 per worker rather than $100), but hey, it's a start.

Since Acme will be saving on workers' compensation, holidays, etc you can tax them a bit more (e.g. $2,100) and they'd still save A LOT.

2) The workers are only getting $20 out of $100 they used to get in my example. It's something, but certainly not enough. It's sort of like a minimum wage. They need to find themselves a job, but at least they won't be income-less.

3) I didn't read the book
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I'm tentatively on board with UBI, but there needs to be some rocket science-level math and planning going into this.
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booboy posted...

I'm tentatively on board with UBI, but there needs to be some rocket science-level math and planning going into this.

IMO the Department of Labor should have to come up with a RRT (Robot Replacement Tax), which calculates how many human workers the robot or software displaces.

The RRT would apply to jobs where it makes sense (e.g. car manufacturing) but not where it doesn't (e.g. nuclear waste management, lasik eye surgery, etc).

All of the RRT revenue funds UBI.
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Broseph_Stalin posted...

UBI really isn't feasible now but it will be once all that "bad" stuff like automation really takes off.

Yea, once their hand is forced people will embrace it. :u Once there are no jobs left for the common man when machines and computers can do everything, people are going to need UBI to survive.

There are just going to be less jobs period. People say, "well, they'll just need to learn to do another skill!" Eventually the only positions needed will be people to maintain the programs and machines, and we'll need less and less of them as the systems get more advanced. People will be replaced. :u And how are those people going to survive with no income?

Soylent green?
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OpheliaAdenade posted...

Broseph_Stalin posted...

UBI really isn't feasible now but it will be once all that "bad" stuff like automation really takes off.

Yea, once their hand is forced people will embrace it. :u Once there are no jobs left for the common man when machines and computers can do everything, people are going to need UBI to survive.

There are just going to be less jobs period. People say, "well, they'll just need to learn to do another skill!" Eventually the only positions needed will be people to maintain the programs and machines, and we'll need less and less of them as the systems get more advanced. People will be replaced. :u And how are those people going to survive with no income?

Soylent green?

Exactly!

And the new jobs are different. Technology displaces say, 100 low skilled jobs and generates 1 or 2 jobs that require a STEM bachelor's, it not the same. Then lawyers, CPAs, physicians, etc will be out of jobs when automation gets better, and they will be replaced by jobs that require master's or PHd's in STEM too.
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Technology displaces say, 100 low skilled jobs and generates 1 or 2 jobs that require a STEM bachelor's

the fact that people can't grasp this is astounding

it's typically conservatives, too, who spent an entire election cycle complaining about illegal immigrants stealing jobs
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Most people will decide to keep working with UBI or seek their creative passion. UBI only covers basic necessities. With improvments to automation, upgrades in renewable clean energy, better batteries, lab grown foods it makes a lot of sense to establish UBI.
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Zero_Destroyer posted...

Technology displaces say, 100 low skilled jobs and generates 1 or 2 jobs that require a STEM bachelor's

the fact that people can't grasp this is astounding

it's typically conservatives, too, who spent an entire election cycle complaining about illegal immigrants stealing jobs

This is also why cheeto is such a dangerous thing for our social fabric.

Say Bubba is out of his shoe sole nailing job, for example. It's an old school, "hammer a nail into this sole into this shoe" job.

People begin wearing Nike sneakers so demand plummets. Shoes no longer use nails now too, and shoe manufacturing is automated. Bubba is sad and out of a job, but he doesn't think much about it.

Then Cheeto and the rest of the cheeto people say mal_fetty things and now he blames immigration for his job loss, and he is promised that Cheeto will somehow make immigrants and/or minorities disappear and he will have his shoe-nailing job back.

Surprise! Even if cheeto turned the 50 states into a larger version of Wales, his shoe nailing job is not coming back! Now Bubba is angry, still doesn't have a job and now he blames immigrants. It's a recipe for social unrest. Cheeto is being irresponsible.
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We always have this silly idea jammed down our throats, but nobody ever produces hard math on how the program would be funded without severely dismantling the military or the numerous safety nets we already have in place
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John_Galt posted...

ould be funded without severely dismantling the military or the numerous safety nets we already have in place

Why not cut both of these.

We already have 300 million guns, do you seriously think anyone is going to invade America just because our military budget isn't 1/3rd of the ENTIRE worlds?
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John_Galt posted...

We always have this silly idea jammed down our throats, but nobody ever produces hard math on how the program would be funded without severely dismantling the military or the numerous safety nets we already have in place

nice blanket statement. I bet you didn't even read my posts
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shockthemonkey posted...

Again, don't tag me

@shockthemonkey
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John_Galt posted...

We always have this silly idea jammed down our throats, but nobody ever produces hard math on how the program would be funded without severely dismantling the military or the numerous safety nets we already have in place

With some sort of a basic income, the safety nets are no longer needed.
The idea that we need to give everyone cash, and also WIC, obamaphones, EBT, etc. will definitely crash the entire system very quickly.

Zero_Destroyer posted...

Technology displaces say, 100 low skilled jobs and generates 1 or 2 jobs that require a STEM bachelor's

the fact that people can't grasp this is astounding

it's typically conservatives, too, who spent an entire election cycle complaining about illegal immigrants stealing jobs

It's not true, though. As automation raises our standard of living, things that used to be infeasible will become actual jobs; you can already see this in some more affluent cities where people can make a living walking dogs.

Or, in the case of paralegals becoming automated, you might see a growth in the need for lawyers as legal services become more accessible to those with a lower income.

https://qz.com/932417/robots-wont-take-your-job-theyll-help-make-room-for-meaningful-work-instead/

Of course there isn't a guarantee that jobs will be replaced at a 1:1 ratio but it's not a 100:1 ratio either
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Balrog0 posted...

Zero_Destroyer posted...

Technology displaces say, 100 low skilled jobs and generates 1 or 2 jobs that require a STEM bachelor's

the fact that people can't grasp this is astounding

it's typically conservatives, too, who spent an entire election cycle complaining about illegal immigrants stealing jobs

It's not true, though. As automation raises our standard of living, things that used to be infeasible will become actual jobs; you can already see this in some more affluent cities where people can make a living walking dogs.

Or, in the case of paralegals becoming automated, you might see a growth in the need for lawyers as legal services become more accessible to those with a lower income.

https://qz.com/932417/robots-wont-take-your-job-theyll-help-make-room-for-meaningful-work-instead/

Of course there isn't a guarantee that jobs will be replaced at a 1:1 ratio but it's not a 100:1 ratio either

What happens when all those rural truckers start to lose their jobs? Thats like the biggest single job there is for most people. Then remember the truck stops, and the meth dealers there, and the seedy hookers...who the fuck is gonna buy their shit?
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foreveraIone posted...

What happens when all those rural truckers start to lose their jobs? Thats like the biggest single job there is for most people. Then remember the truck stops, and the meth dealers there, and the seedy hookers...who the f*** is gonna buy their s***?

ex-fucking-actly!

Imagine a 42 yr old trucker. He has a family of 2 and his only skill is driving a truck. Now self driving cars took his job, but don't worry, it generated a job for some programmer in Bangalore who keeps the software running smooth. It's all good guys, we kill some jobs but generate others!

Suuuuuure. Except the new job requires a CS degree. Except the new job is in Bangalore. Except the fact that the trucker used to stop at truck stop restaurants, so there goes the job of the waitress, cook and cashier. He used to sleep in those seedy roadside hotels too, so there goes the job of a hotel cleaning lady, a hotel keeper and the hotel front desk. He also went to bars, so there goes the bartender.

That "cute" self driving truck just wiped out 7 jobs. But hey guys, it generated one STEM job!!! good job! *sigh*
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someone post that supply side jesus thing again
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