Board 8 > So do anime characters count as superheroes or are they just a western idea?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Future Trunks is a 'future bad***' from a post-apocalyptic world. It's a common trope in everything from superhero fiction to fantasy to sci-fi, and probably it's own self-contained thing.

Future Trunks probably would be considered a hero to his own people, but it's not so much a 'secret' in the future so your missing that element.

superheroes don't all need to keep secret identities.
i mean it's not like we're going to say Luke Cage, Tony Stark, Captain America, all four members of the Fantastic Four, Aquaman, Hercules, etc aren't superheroes. there's no secrecy in any of those.
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Shouldn't Future Trunks be a hero to the present because him going back in time prevented like everybody dying? I mean if not for that he wouldn't have been a hero in his own time or any time since everybody would be dead

Technically a secret identity doesn't have to be secret to be a secret identity anymore.

It's complicated.
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i can understand a loose sense of the term but there's literally nothing secret about the names above. that's straight up their personal identities in full.
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Does Anpanman, one of the single most popular characters for Japanese kids, count as a superhero?
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I don't think the line is really western/anime... there are Japanese super heroes too, like say Astro Boy or Ultraman. But just like not all western cartoons are superheroes, not all anime characters are either.

Superhero seems like a specific genre. I wouldn't consider like, the TMNT super heroes either. I don't know exactly what it is though.
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PerfectChaosZ posted...

Your description of the Suicide Squad would be wrong because they are in way shape or form superheros. They're a supervillain team controlled by the government. People would be even more confused by describing them as superheros.

Then they are capes, or masks, or whatever non-superhero word you want to use to describe the genre. That was the point of my post was that they don't have to be heroes to fit in that genre. Goku kind of fits this, if you stretch a bit.

If someone came to me and wanted to read comics but said they didn't want to read superheroes, I wouldn't recommend Suicide Squad because it is the same concept, but darker in tone. "Not a superhero" is a well established subgenre within superhero comics.
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Superheroes are defined by their commitment to and interaction with society. Someone with superman's powers isn't a superhero. Someone who interacts with their community and influences it as a one-man law enforcement unit is. Goku isn't a superhero, Saitama is, as an example.
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<_< so would krillin be a superhero.
i mean he's literally a one man law enforcement.
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Wanglicious posted...

<_< so would krillin be a superhero.
i mean he's literally a one man law enforcement.

Possibly? The 'interaction with the community' bit is the key thing imo
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Wanglicious posted...

<_< so would krillin be a superhero.
i mean he's literally a one man law enforcement.

But he's also an actual cop.

However, Superpowered Cop Heroes are also a thing.

But I think ultimately Kanz's point about society is right. Most superheroes are partly defined by how society views them (good or bad), and DBZ has no interest in that.
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I'm not saying you can't be a hero without a secret life (identity or not, because some 'hero' characters just keep their crime fighting activities a secret without a costumed identity), I'm just saying having one is a tick in the plus column for "yes this person is a superhero".

The secret identity is a synergy point yeah. Since it's about a person's 'expected' interaction with society it fits with what I mentioned as the core characteristic of the genre, I feel.
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Both Saitama and Goku love to fight and do pretty much the same thing just one is usually in a city-scape and one is usually in endless mountains and plains. And they both have their achievements stolen by others who people universally love, and the public at large considers them both super scrubs. Just Goku wears a gi and Saitama wears an obvious superhero outfit.

well that's why i get into the Future Trunks situation - humanity is terrorized of the androids in his timeline and there's nobody left to help. he goes back in time for the specific purpose to save his world.

does this not qualify? society isn't a particular issue for it, they lack a hero. he's the only person left with any potential to save them.
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PerfectChaosZ posted...

Both Saitama and Goku love to fight and do pretty much the same thing just one is usually in a city-scape and one is usually in endless mountains and plains. And they both have their achievements stolen by others who people universally love, and the public at large considers them both super scrubs. Just Goku wears a gi and Saitama wears an obvious superhero outfit.

Saitama's recognized as a hero, though, just not seen as a capable one for awhile by the public. And yeah, while he loves to fight, his initial motivation to train was to help people.

Goku literally just wants to fight, and if it helps people, okay.
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Future Trunks would be closer to a superhero than Goku would, yeah, since he had the underlying motivation of helping people, which Goku lacks.
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StealThisSheen posted...

his initial motivation to train was to help people.

Goku literally just wants to fight, and if it helps people, okay.

going by the bold, you're looking into DB.
that had a very different dynamic than DBZ did with very different motivations.
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...although on that end, goku didn't really spend all of DBZ with the intention of thinking "how do i fight best."

his fighting Raditz had nothing to do with "i want to fight the best," his fighting Vegeta and Nappa wasn't "i want to fight the best" either.

his saving Vegeta might've, though that's a bit iffy. but his motivation to train at King Kai's was literally "I need to save my family, friends, and people."

it's a similar thing for Freiza too. he didn't go there with the intent to do combat with the strongest warrior, he went there to save people, get the dragonballs, etc.

<_<; after he went super saiyan that kinda starts to change quick. especially when he spares the guy. Vegeta, ironically, might be more of a hero than Goku at this point in Super and Goku more of a warrior.
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In any universe where someone is specifically labeled as a superhero, all characters not labeled as such are not.

No DBZ characters aside from one are labeled as superheroes and therefore cannot be treated as such.
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Wanglicious posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

his initial motivation to train was to help people.

Goku literally just wants to fight, and if it helps people, okay.

going by the bold, you're looking into DB.
that had a very different dynamic than DBZ did with very different motivations.

I admittedly don't know much of DB. I'm just going by Z and onward.

My main point was that Saitama's main motivation is to help people, and fighting strong opponents is the cherry on top that became more of a desire. He's gone out of his way to do stuff that ONLY helped people and didn't give him a fight, so his motivation is still clear.

Goku's motivation from DBZ on is ONLY to fight. He doesn't aim to help people like Gohan as Saiyaman, or Future Trunks.
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StealThisSheen posted...

Goku's motivation from DBZ on is ONLY to fight.

i know i made the second post too soon for you here but that's not the case for Raditz, Nappa + Vegeta, or Frieza... up to going super saiyan.
anything after that does pretty quickly go into that territory though, yes.
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Wanglicious posted...

<_<; after he went super saiyan that kinda starts to change quick. especially when he spares the guy. Vegeta, ironically, might be more of a hero than Goku at this point in Super and Goku more of a warrior.

Honestly? Vegeta became more of a hero the second he killed the Ginyu Force guys that Goku spared. Those guys weren't going to suddenly "turn good," and Goku clearly wasn't going to lock them up or anything.
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Wanglicious posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

Goku's motivation from DBZ on is ONLY to fight.

i know i made the second post too soon for you here but that's not the case for Raditz, Nappa + Vegeta, or Frieza... up to going super saiyan.
anything after that does pretty quickly go into that territory though, yes.

*Most of DBZ, then. >_>
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StealThisSheen posted...

PerfectChaosZ posted...

Both Saitama and Goku love to fight and do pretty much the same thing just one is usually in a city-scape and one is usually in endless mountains and plains. And they both have their achievements stolen by others who people universally love, and the public at large considers them both super scrubs. Just Goku wears a gi and Saitama wears an obvious superhero outfit.

Saitama's recognized as a hero, though, just not seen as a capable one for awhile by the public. And yeah, while he loves to fight, his initial motivation to train was to help people.

Goku literally just wants to fight, and if it helps people, okay.

Not only this, but most of the driving force behind OPM is the public and other heroes' reaction to Saitama. If you remove that aspect, you lose a lot of what makes Saitama a heroic character.
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See, the thing is, Dragon Ball has always been a martial arts series.

In martial arts shows, morality is often a secondary factor - it's all about contests of skill, striving to always become a better fighter, and to be met with increasing challenge after challenge. Power creep isn't just a side effect of the escalating plotline - it's honestly the goal.

The fact that some of the opponents the protagonists will fight are irredeemable monsters isn't unexpected - they're the true tests of the protagonists' grit and character.

In the Japanese version, Goku has always been about seeking the next fight. For those of us who grew up with the show, though, we were spoiled by the dub that did its best to make Goku into someone who was closer to a saint - instead of sparing Vegeta because he wanted to fight him again, he spared Vegeta because "We're good guys". Instead of having his Saiyan pride rekindled by Vegeta's speech just before Frieza killed him, he was all about avenging him because "We're good guys".

The Kai redub did a lot to bring Goku's character back in line with the Japanese version, and I can't help but wonder if that's part of why it was less popular than the original dub for Americans.
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