Board 8 > Inviso and AdmiralZephyr Rank Survivor Winners!

(+) Yeah! (+)

Nah I definitely think J.T. is one of the few winners who legitimately cares about how he is perceived as a winner, and his "try hard and fail" performances in subsequent seasons are exactly the reason I believe that.
---

Is there any evidence that this notion was the case? Beyond speculation. I don't remember the summer between Tocantins finishing and HvV being filmed - I can't imagine J.T.'s reception was "Stephen should get the credit". Let alone J.T. basing his HvV game on said reception.

It's possible his GC game was more influenced by the internet but I honestly don't think he's someone who cares that much. I think he's been the same guy each season, it's just Tocantins allowed him to be the likable underdog amidst a cast of eccentric, combative people.
---

It's not so much that there was a "Stephen should get the credit" so much as there was an undercurrent throughout the season that Stephen was the mastermind player and was making all the moves and was playing a great game. Then J.T. wins the last couple immunities and is a respectable winner...but Stephen still held the spotlight as a new "best player not to win." I think J.T. is enough of an alpha male that not being seen as the best player might've grated on him and gotten him to play a flashier game so that no one else would be in the spotlight for HIS win (assumed win.)
---

well you did say the whole of the internet was crediting Stephen
---

Peridiam posted...

well you did say the whole of the internet was crediting Stephen

They were. It's like how everyone watching EI loved Cirie and thought she was a genius player, but the jurors didn't really see her game on a surface level. Same thing happened to Stephen, except he made the finals and looked like the genius that was robbed (to an admittedly super-nice guy.)
---

Except he wasn't except he wasn't robbed, he got destroyed at final Tribal Council
---

I would argue that Stephen was the start of the attitude that would come back in full force with Russell the next season. It wasn't quite as intense as the "Russellgotscrewed.com" backlash, but still.
---

I also personally seem to remember Tocantins getting an unusual amount of attention for a season that took place around that time; like I can remember people around campus, radio stations, Facebook friends that I didn't even know liked the show, and everyone talking about that one, and most of the chatter centered on four people - J.T., Stephen, Coach and Sierra. So yeah I can see both of them reacting to their respective win/loss moreso than finalists in the surrounding seasons (save Russell).
---

You also have to remember Tocantins' place in Survivor history. We were coming off China (a beloved season with a strong, strategic winner), and Micronesia, which was the first really "modern" Survivor season (idols and blindsides taking center stage), where Parvati was credited as the best female player of all time. Fans started viewing Survivor as a pure strategy game and loved "big moves".

Gabon was casually unpopular and chaotic, and then you had Tocantins, where JT won on the back of Stephen's gameplay. Yes, JT was popular and won the fan vote, but I'd argue Stephen and Coach were painted as the real stars of the season, while JT was just the nice challenge whore that won. Given the increase in game-based fandom, I think JT felt somewhat slighted by the fan base and went into HvV wanting to prove his strategic acumen, hence some of his overplaying.
---

I always felt JT was better for the casual than the internet fan base. I mean as much can be said by looking at the Survivor facebook page where STEPHEN was looked at as the villain in the fights between him and SAVAGE!
---

eaedwards6400 posted...

I always felt JT was better for the casual than the internet fan base. I mean as much can be said by looking at the Survivor facebook page where STEPHEN was looked at as the villain in the fights between him and SAVAGE!

I don't doubt that. Casuals LOVE hard-working, Southern challenge whores, and golden boys too. But I think the fan base was really starting to shift their appreciation towards gameplay at that point in Survivor history. Hence fan favorite winners like Russell twice, Boston Rob, and Kim. The love for challenge whores is still there, but I think it's not the same guarantee it once was to produce favorites.
---

@AdmiralZephyr

12. Sandra Diaz-Twine (Survivor: Pearl Islands)

As much as I love Sandra, she doesn’t QUITE make it into the pantheon of winners I would consider truly AMAZING. She’s very good in Pearl Islands, but she’s just got a couple flaws that hurt her enough to make her victory questionable. Don’t get me wrong, I think Sandra played a very solid game and knew exactly when to scheme and plot to her benefit. I just also think that the game was out of her hand at times, and while she was good at capitalizing on other players’ fuck-ups, she didn’t do enough proactive gaming to ensure her safety. Despite playing a near-perfect game (fuck you Tijuana), there are several instances in which she could easily have gotten fucked over if things didn’t swing in her favor.

Given how Sandra is on the cusp of my top tier of winners though, I think it’s important I give her a fair shake. So I’ll try to balance out her negatives with positives and vice versa. First negative, I think she was a bit too openly antagonistic at times. She definitely didn’t do herself any favors with Fairplay after the stunt she pulled just before the Outcast twist. Don’t give members of your tribe any reason to feel like outsiders, especially going into the merge. However, that same bluntness allowed Sandra to be viewed as a straight-shooter, and thus she could get away with lying to save her ass, or lying to benefit her strategically.

Another negative is how much the outcast twist saved her game. Going into the merge, the Morgan tribe had rallied and were a strong, five-person alliance. Drake was extremely fractured. Shawn and Jon had no real reason to remain loyal to the Drakes, and there’s no way Pearl Islands doesn’t go down as a straight-up Pagonging with Andrew Savage helming the opposition. However, Sandra navigated the post-merge well and positioned herself as the last person to go from Drake if everything went according to plan. After all, why would anyone target her over Rupert, Christa, Shawn, or even Jon? Who’s to say the Morgans don’t implode at the endgame in that scenario? I’m sure they didn’t want to just hand the money to Savage.

Admittedly, Sandra fucked up at the final 8, when she turned what could easily have been a tie vote into a Rupert boot by casting a throwaway vote towards Jon. Kinda hard to defend this one, but at the very least, she recovered quickly by eavesdropping on Jon/Burton. Finally, Sandra got lucky that Lill was willing to play with her heart rather than her head, and Lill took Sandra to the finals over an easier opponent in Fairplay. That being said, I think Sandra definitely drilled it into Lill’s head that Jon was evil (particularly ramping that mentality up after the Rupert boot), and probably played up her mom status more than we saw.

Again, Sandra managed to put herself in a position where no one could ever reasonably target her over bigger threats, and that takes some skill, especially if you’re painting yourself as a perpetual free agent. Sandra took the various positive circumstances that fell into her lap, and she played them EXTREMELY well. She was very good at shifting blame (like what she did to Christa), and she was very good at sniffing out when people were BSing her (post-Rupert blindside, at least.) Although she could’ve been, given the right circumstances, she was never actually target at any point, and I think she deserves a ton of credit for being a loud, sassy, woman-of-color, being shit at challenges, and yet she still came within a single vote of a perfect game. She’s not a top tier winner, but she’s damn close.
---

Mah Savage!

The Heroic comeback by Morgan is still my favorite pre merge with the possible exception of Rocky and Dreamz
---

11. Sandra Diaz-Twine (Survivor: Pearl Islands)

Sandra's "as long as it ain't me" strategy worked well enough to land her on the high side of the list but not in the upper echelon because there are several parts where it could have fallen apart on her. And incidentally all three involve Jon. The first was her fight with Jon in episode three in which she came away looking worse to her tribe. If they had lost immunity that round, Sandra probably would have gone home. The second was immediately after the Rupert boot where she started cussing out Jon, and, by proxy, Burton. How she made it through the next boot after that AND her actions at the next reward challenge (justified as they were) is beyond me. The third was at the final four when Jon flipped the vote on Darrah. He had already made close relationships with Lill and Darrah on reward challenges, so it wouldn't have been unreal for the three of them to vote out Sandra instead. Still, her strategy worked well enough and her jury performance good enough to put her relatively high, just not quite among the all-time greats. As a side note, despite being the one time she finally lost, I feel like Game Changers was the best game that Sandra played and where she truly proved that she DOES deserve to be considered one of the best players of all time.
---

INVISO'S LIST

??? TIER:

1. ???
2. ???
3. ???
4. ???
5. ???

??? TIER:

6. ???
7. ???
8. ???
9. ???
10. ???

??? TIER:

11. ???
12. Sandra Diaz-Twine (Pearl Islands)
13. James "J.T." Thomas, Jr. (Tocantins)
14. Tina Wesson (Australia)
15. Tony Vlachos (Cagayan)
16. Yul Kwon (Cook Islands)
17. John Cochran (Caramoan)

ONE IN A MILLION TIER:

18. Vecepia Towery (Marquesas)
19. Aras Baskauskas (Exile Island)
20. Brian Heidik (Thailand)
21. Tyson Apostol (Blood vs. Water)
22. Rob Mariano (Redemption Island)
23. Parvati Shallow (Micronesia)
24. Adam Klein (Millennials vs. Gen X)

"BITTER JURY" TIER:

25. Natalie White (Samoa)
26. Sandra Diaz-Twine (Heroes vs. Villains)
27. Sophie Clarke (South Pacific)
28. Amber Brkich (All-Stars)

SEMI CHALLENGE WHORE TIER:

29. Jenna Morasca (Amazon)
30. Michele Fitzgerald (Kaoh Rong)

PURE CHALLENGE WHORE TIER:

31. Bob Crowley (Gabon)
32. Judson "Fabio" Birza (Nicaragua)
33. Mike Holloway (Worlds Apart)
---

Average Rankings Thus Far:

Sandra Diaz-Twine (PI) - 11.5
Tina Wesson - 11.5
Tony Vlachos - 12.5
Yul Kwon - 15
James "J.T." Thomas, Jr. - 16
Brian Heidik - 16.5
John Cochran - 18.5
Rob Mariano - 18.5
Parvati Shallow - 19.5
Tyson Apostol - 21
Aras Baskauskas - 21
Vecepia Towery - 22
Sandra Diaz-Twine (HvV) - 24
Natalie White - 25
Amber Brkich - 26
Adam Klein - 26
Sophie Clarke - 27
Michele Fitzgerald - 29.5
Jenna Morasca - 30.5
Judson "Fabio" Birza - 31.5
Mike Holloway - 31.5
Bob Crowley - 32
---

Inviso posted...

Admittedly, Sandra fucked up at the final 8, when she turned what could easily have been a tie vote into a Rupert boot by casting a throwaway vote towards Jon.

How exactly could this have been a tie? Even without Sandra's stray vote it would have been 5-3, unless you're thinking they could have convinced either Lill or Burton to stay with them.
---

I'm more confused about how a tie would have helped Sandra. Would going to rocks be worth it to maybe keep her alliance around when whoever remains of Lil/Burton/Jon/Tijuana/Darrah would have the majority anyway? Sandra's alliance had bad odds there no matter what.
---

AdmiralZephyr posted...

Inviso posted...

Admittedly, Sandra fucked up at the final 8, when she turned what could easily have been a tie vote into a Rupert boot by casting a throwaway vote towards Jon.

How exactly could this have been a tie? Even without Sandra's stray vote it would have been 5-3, unless you're thinking they could have convinced either Lill or Burton to stay with them.

The thinking was that Lill was still with them regardless of Fairplay/Burton.

Xeybozn posted...

I'm more confused about how a tie would have helped Sandra. Would going to rocks be worth it to maybe keep her alliance around when whoever remains of Lil/Burton/Jon/Tijuana/Darrah would have the majority anyway? Sandra's alliance had bad odds there no matter what.

In the event of a tie, it would be her solid alliance of four (Rupert/Sandra/Christa/Lill) against a loose coalition that would be just as unwilling as her to draw rocks.
---

@AdmiralZephyr Down to the top 10!

11. Todd Herzog (Survivor: China)

Todd is a weird winner to classify. I am extremely impressed that a tiny little flight attendant who didn’t win a single immunity challenge could lead and dominate his tribe the way he did. Yes, Cirie did the same thing, but she also lost in the end, sadly enough. Todd was never in any real danger, and he controlled most aspects of the strategy in the season, with Amanda as his second-in-command. They worked well as a pair, giving each other a sounding board to bounce ideas off of, and ultimately, they played the post-merge like Australia: Pagonging with a few pauses to eliminate loose cannons.

Additionally, I love the way Todd was able to turn things around and guarantee his win at the final tribal council. I think going in, people were legitimately split between himself, Amanda and Courtney, but his confidence and rational explanations earned him some leader respect, while his partner-in-crime, Amanda, floundered. I think this is key to Todd’s game. He was very good at knowing what to do or say to make himself appear very good in the eyes of the jury. He completely sweet-talked Jean-Robert and locked up that fourth vote he needed for the win. I think he probably used these same skills to keep Courtney in check when her emotions threatened to override his strategic game moves.

There are only a couple things that hold Todd back from a higher position on this list. First, I can’t one hundred percent say that his success is solo. Despite her meltdown in the last few days, Amanda was right there with Todd throughout the game, and in fact, she took out James just as much as Todd took out Jean-Robert. Also, the question is have regarding Todd’s win is just how much of a guarantee it was. He lost two votes to Courtney and a third to Amanda. Would he have beaten Denise? Peih-Gee? Erik? James? Was this specific combination of three players his only winning scenario? MAYBE, but I can’t be one hundred percent sure. The jury was not AS bitter as one would expect, and Todd was a likable enough presence. Still, that doubt prevents me from ranking him any higher.
---

Welp.

4. Todd Herzog (Survivor: China)

Like Bob, Yul, and one other that has yet to show up on Inviso's list, I nailed down Todd as the winner in the first episode of the season and never looked back. To me, Todd is one of the few people who is both in the running for best player ever AND one of my favorite characters ever. He made a solid alliance on day 1, effortlessly recovered when one of them got taken out of the game in one of the most bullshit tribeswaps ever, reeled in a double agent from the other tribe (whom he then proceeded to blindside at the most opportune moment), kept the season's loose cannon under his thumb, masterminded a string of fantastic post-merge blindsides, and gave what I consider to be the second-best final tribal council performance of all time, where he convinced people that swore they wouldn't vote for him if he fucked them over to vote for him. All this while being the sassy little gay kid that we all know and love.
---

darkx's tier list

??? Tier
1. ???
2. ???
3. ???
4. Todd Herzog (Survivor: China)
5. ???

??? Tier
6. ???
7. ???
8. ???
9. Tina Wesson (Survivor: The Australian Outback)

??? Tier
10. Tony Vlachos (Survivor: Cagayan)
11. Sandra Diaz-Twine (Survivor: Pearl Islands)
12. ???
13. Brian Heidik (Survivor: Thailand)
14. Yul Kwon (Survivor: Cook Islands)

Asterisk Tier
15. Rob Mariano (Survivor: Redemption Island)
16. Parvati Shallow (Survivor: Micronesia)

??? Tier
17. ???
18. ???
19. James "J.T." Thomas, Jr. (Survivor: Tocantins)
20. John Cochran (Survivor: Caramoan)
21. Tyson Apostol (Survivor: Blood vs. Water)
22. Sandra Diaz-Twine (Survivor: Heroes vs. Villains)
23. Aras Baskauskas (Survivor: Exile Island)

UTR Social Game Tier
24. Amber Brkich (Survivor: All-Stars)
25. Natalie White (Survivor: Samoa)
26. Vecepia Towery (Survivor: Marquesas)
27. Sophie Clarke (Survivor: South Pacific)

Still Not Entirely Sure How They Won Tier
28. Adam Klein (Survivor: Millennials vs. Gen X)
29. Michele Fitzgerald (Survivor: Kaoh Rong)
30. Mike Holloway (Survivor: Worlds Apart)
31. Judson "Fabio" Birza (Survivor: Nicaragua)
32. Jenna Morasca (Survivor: Amazon)
33. Bob Crowley (Survivor: Gabon)
---

INVISO'S LIST

??? TIER:

1. ???
2. ???
3. ???
4. ???
5. ???

??? TIER:

6. ???
7. ???
8. ???
9. ???
10. ???

ONE FLAW FROM PERFECTION TIER:

11. Todd Herzog (China)
12. Sandra Diaz-Twine (Pearl Islands)
13. James "J.T." Thomas, Jr. (Tocantins)
14. Tina Wesson (Australia)
15. Tony Vlachos (Cagayan)
16. Yul Kwon (Cook Islands)
17. John Cochran (Caramoan)

ONE IN A MILLION TIER:

18. Vecepia Towery (Marquesas)
19. Aras Baskauskas (Exile Island)
20. Brian Heidik (Thailand)
21. Tyson Apostol (Blood vs. Water)
22. Rob Mariano (Redemption Island)
23. Parvati Shallow (Micronesia)
24. Adam Klein (Millennials vs. Gen X)

"BITTER JURY" TIER:

25. Natalie White (Samoa)
26. Sandra Diaz-Twine (Heroes vs. Villains)
27. Sophie Clarke (South Pacific)
28. Amber Brkich (All-Stars)

SEMI CHALLENGE WHORE TIER:

29. Jenna Morasca (Amazon)
30. Michele Fitzgerald (Kaoh Rong)

PURE CHALLENGE WHORE TIER:

31. Bob Crowley (Gabon)
32. Judson "Fabio" Birza (Nicaragua)
33. Mike Holloway (Worlds Apart)
---

Average Rankings Thus Far:

Todd Herzog - 7.5
Sandra Diaz-Twine (PI) - 11.5
Tina Wesson - 11.5
Tony Vlachos - 12.5
Yul Kwon - 15
James "J.T." Thomas, Jr. - 16
Brian Heidik - 16.5
John Cochran - 18.5
Rob Mariano - 18.5
Parvati Shallow - 19.5
Tyson Apostol - 21
Aras Baskauskas - 21
Vecepia Towery - 22
Sandra Diaz-Twine (HvV) - 24
Natalie White - 25
Amber Brkich - 26
Adam Klein - 26
Sophie Clarke - 27
Michele Fitzgerald - 29.5
Jenna Morasca - 30.5
Judson "Fabio" Birza - 31.5
Mike Holloway - 31.5
Bob Crowley - 32
---

The Top Ten:

Richard Hatch (Survivor: Borneo)
Ethan Zohn (Survivor: Africa)
Chris Daugherty (Survivor: Vanuatu)
Tom Westman (Survivor: Palau)
Danni Boatwright (Survivor: Guatemala)
Earl Cole (Survivor: Fiji)
Kim Spradlin (Survivor: One World)
Denise Stapley (Survivor: Philippines)
Natalie Anderson (Survivor: San Juan Del Sur)
Jeremy Collins (Survivor: Cambodia)
---

Pretty surprised to see Ethan hanging around still
---

Alright, kicking off the top ten, I want to point out that I think all ten of these players are amazing, so just because one player is ranked ten and another is ranked one, that's not necessarily saying one is OHMYGODSOAMAZING and ten is okay. It's just that one is better than the other. That's all.

@AdmiralZephyr

10. Tom Westman (Survivor: Palau)

The bottom half of my top tier of winners is populated by the players who took on a leadership role early on and maintained it throughout the season before earning the jury’s respect and scoring a victory. It’s important to note that these leaders are separate from your Boston Robs, Brians, Parvatis, etc. in that these leaders earned enough respect that they likely could’ve beaten a wide variety of players had they made the finals. Some more so than others, but still, it’s highly likely that the leaders in this category would always end up in a dominant, respected position when seated in front of a jury.

For Tom, the reason he ranks the lowest of this group is the fact that he’s the only winner in this tier that not only won multiple immunities to keep himself safe going into the endgame, but it’s also entirely possible he NEEDED to win those immunities going into the endgame. Note, this is not to say I consider him a winner on par with Bob, Fabio, and Mike. Tom did not end up in the minority and needed immunity to secure his continued survival. He just happened to be a massive threat that other players would reasonably want to target. And were it not for those last three immunity wins, it’s entirely possible the rest of the tribe votes him out at five, four, or three.

That being said, Tom was a great leader. He took a tribe that was, on paper, not up to snuff with his Ulong opposition, and he managed to turn Koror into one of the most dominant tribes in Survivor history. Now, whether that was specifically due to Tom’s leadership, or due to Ulong’s utter ineptitude…that’s up for debate. The point is that Tom, as leader of Koror, brought the tribe into the merge with an insurmountable numbers advantage. And post-merge, his alliance held a numbers advantage. And once outliers like Coby/Janu/Stephenie went home, he held a numbers advantage WITHIN that alliance. PLUS he played nice with Caryn when no one else on the tribe would, securing her as a pocket vote.

It’s also important to note that Tom picked his allies very carefully. He crafted Ian into a surrogate son, which is part of the reason Ian had his meltdown. He just couldn’t successfully lie and betray his island dad, and that led to a complete mental breakdown, and ultimately a quit at the final three. As disturbing as that is from a psychological perspective, it’s very impressive on Tom’s part to inspire THAT level of emotion in his allies. Equally impressive was his use of pocket ally Caryn to take out Gregg RIGHT as Gregg became a threat to his dominance.

In essence, Tom did an amazing job playing from ahead all season long. He inspired his tribe and managed to use his leadership to psychologically manipulate people JUST long enough for him to reach the endgame and win immunity challenges. I have to give him a ton of kudos for this, and I think Tom dusts pretty much anyone in the cast if he makes the finals, so for that, I have to enshrine Tom in my top tier of winners.
---

I've only watched these seasons:

Kim Spradlin (Survivor: One World)
Denise Stapley (Survivor: Philippines)
Natalie Anderson (Survivor: San Juan Del Sur)
Jeremy Collins (Survivor: Cambodia)

I'd rank them (just based on favoritism): Denise > Natalie > Jeremy > Kim
---

At first glance Ethan is the only one that really stands out. Not sure I recall him being that amazing (although I did really like him at the time it first aired).

17. Tom Westman (Survivor: Palau)

Yeah, Tom right in the middle sounds about right to me. He played a good, albeit not FANTASTIC game, he was the leader of a tribe that was so dominant that they won every immunity challenge, and made decent enough social interactions that what could have easily been a bitter jury gave him the million (granted his opponent was wildly disliked, but given the strange circumstances that surrounded this season bringing the goat to the end was probably the best strategy anyone in the final six could have used, because I'm pretty sure any of Ian/Jenn/Gregg also 6-1 or even 7-0 Katie; Caryn vs. Katie is a toss-up). An even bigger blemish on Tom's win is that he was only eligible to be voted out three times in the entire season. I'm 99% positive that that's a record for any finalist. And as a leader pre-merge and challenge beast post-merge, I'm sure they would have gotten him out at some point if Koror had lost a few immunities or he lost the F4 immunity.
---

So Darkx Tom isn't higher because of ifs and buts?

I have him higher than both of you but not much higher than Inviso
---

Tom isn't higher because he didn't impress me all that much and a large part of it is because he pretty much got to sit out the entire first half of the game.
---

So he's punished because a tribe led by him dominated the premerge?
---

I don't know what you want me to say, when I go to name the best Survivor winners, Tom doesn't even cross my mind.
---

I just didn't think 17 guys Tom Westman.
---

Tom waaay too low. If this, if that.
---

I wasn't all that impressed by Tom, but I wouldn't really say anything against him eitger
---

@AdmiralZephyr

9. Richard Hatch (Survivor: Borneo)

A lot of people like to claim that Richard’s win is less than ideal because he was playing against a weak cast, and I understand that thinking. It’s easy to look at the Pagongs as clueless morons that handed the game to Tagi. However, it’s also important to note that EVERYONE started Borneo on the same playing field. It’s not like a Fans vs. Favorites situation where one tribe knows what they’re doing and the other doesn’t. Richard shouldn’t be docked points for grasping the concept of Survivor faster than the other team. If anything, it’s MORE important that he so quickly figured out the strategy behind winning Survivor that is STILL imitated to this day (more or less.)

One thing I think people need to understand about Richard is that he DIDN’T win Borneo on the back of being this amazing uber-strategist. No, he figured out that alliances needed to happen, but more than that, he played a social game. Maybe Sue didn’t like him and maybe he didn’t bond with the younger kids like Kelly attempted to do, but even there, Kelly came across as fake and TRYING to secure jury votes, while Richard came across as legitimate. Richard buddied up with Greg (which gave him the win more than guessing a number did), Richard was buddies with Sean and ESPECIALLY buddies with Rudy, who he never personally fucked over. That’s social game.

Throw in Richard stepping up as a leader and actively providing food for the tribe…I think THAT is an aspect of his game that gets lost on modern viewers. Richard wasn’t just a strategic leader. He stepped up and he EARNED that position through his actions benefitting the Tagis, and the Rattana tribe as a whole. In fact, I think even the Pagongs mostly respected him, but Sue’s speech kinda flipped Gervase/Colleen out of spite. Otherwise we’d have a 6-1 win in the first season.

More than that though, it’s also important to look at Richard’s position within Tagi. THIS is something that really speaks volumes to his skill as a player. Obviously the Tagis were gonna pick off the Pagongs. They only makes sense. But compare Richard to say, Brian. Brian could ONLY win against Clay by the end. Meanwhile, Richard beats Sean in the finals because Sean’s not respected. He beats Sue in the finals because she’s abrasive. He beats Kelly in the finals because she’s wishy-washy. His ONLY real competition was Rudy, and I think he had a case to make there too.

But on top of that, despite being the second biggest threat to win, I don’t think there was a chance Richard misses the final tribal council. Yes, there was a tie at the final 4, but Rudy was NEVER flipping on Richard, and Kelly had far less reason to give a shit about Sue. And if Kelly ever loses immunity, I don’t see Richard as being at the top of anyone’s pecking order at that point. MAYBE he loses in a Rudy/Richard/Sue F3 with Sue winning immunity…but would Sue really cut off her chances at a million dollars to stick it to Richard? I’m not so sure.

Overall, Richard created the way Survivor should be played, but even by modern standards, he played a magnificent game. I have a TON of respect for him in that regard. Literally the ONLY reason he’s this low is because the higher-ranked winners had to deal with a LITTLE more adversity in terms of their opposition.
---

INVISO'S LIST

??? TIER:

1. ???
2. ???
3. ???
4. ???
5. ???

??? TIER:

6. ???
7. ???
8. ???
9. Richard Hatch (Borneo)
10. Tom Westman (Palau)

ONE FLAW FROM PERFECTION TIER:

11. Todd Herzog (China)
12. Sandra Diaz-Twine (Pearl Islands)
13. James "J.T." Thomas, Jr. (Tocantins)
14. Tina Wesson (Australia)
15. Tony Vlachos (Cagayan)
16. Yul Kwon (Cook Islands)
17. John Cochran (Caramoan)

ONE IN A MILLION TIER:

18. Vecepia Towery (Marquesas)
19. Aras Baskauskas (Exile Island)
20. Brian Heidik (Thailand)
21. Tyson Apostol (Blood vs. Water)
22. Rob Mariano (Redemption Island)
23. Parvati Shallow (Micronesia)
24. Adam Klein (Millennials vs. Gen X)

"BITTER JURY" TIER:

25. Natalie White (Samoa)
26. Sandra Diaz-Twine (Heroes vs. Villains)
27. Sophie Clarke (South Pacific)
28. Amber Brkich (All-Stars)

SEMI CHALLENGE WHORE TIER:

29. Jenna Morasca (Amazon)
30. Michele Fitzgerald (Kaoh Rong)

PURE CHALLENGE WHORE TIER:

31. Bob Crowley (Gabon)
32. Judson "Fabio" Birza (Nicaragua)
33. Mike Holloway (Worlds Apart)
---

1. Richard Hatch (Survivor: Borneo)

It's so hard for me to NOT put Richard at the top (though I briefly but seriously considered swapping him with my #2) because he did it first and he did it amazingly, not to mention with some odds against him. At its inception, Survivor was purely a social experiment. More likely than not, the winner was going to be someone that people inherently liked, like Gretchen or Rudy. Richard, who is arrogant and walks around naked half the time, turned the whole thing on its head and added layers of strategy to it. And in the end it won him, not one of the likable people, a million dollars. And it wasn't even close. He beats anybody in the final five except Rudy. Would somebody else have come up with the concept of alliances at some point if he hadn't? Of course. It was inevitable. My guess is it would have happened in Africa. But that he came up with it so early and so well and just basically laid the groundwork for the way the game would be played for 34 seasons and counting is just fantastic.
---

darkx's tier list

??? Tier
1. Richard Hatch (Survivor: Borneo)
2. ???
3. ???
4. Todd Herzog (Survivor: China)
5. ???

??? Tier
6. ???
7. ???
8. ???
9. Tina Wesson (Survivor: The Australian Outback)

??? Tier
10. Tony Vlachos (Survivor: Cagayan)
11. Sandra Diaz-Twine (Survivor: Pearl Islands)
12. ???
13. Brian Heidik (Survivor: Thailand)
14. Yul Kwon (Survivor: Cook Islands)

Asterisk Tier
15. Rob Mariano (Survivor: Redemption Island)
16. Parvati Shallow (Survivor: Micronesia)

??? Tier
17. Tom Westman (Survivor: Palau)
18. ???
19. James "J.T." Thomas, Jr. (Survivor: Tocantins)
20. John Cochran (Survivor: Caramoan)
21. Tyson Apostol (Survivor: Blood vs. Water)
22. Sandra Diaz-Twine (Survivor: Heroes vs. Villains)
23. Aras Baskauskas (Survivor: Exile Island)

UTR Social Game Tier
24. Amber Brkich (Survivor: All-Stars)
25. Natalie White (Survivor: Samoa)
26. Vecepia Towery (Survivor: Marquesas)
27. Sophie Clarke (Survivor: South Pacific)

Still Not Entirely Sure How They Won Tier
28. Adam Klein (Survivor: Millennials vs. Gen X)
29. Michele Fitzgerald (Survivor: Kaoh Rong)
30. Mike Holloway (Survivor: Worlds Apart)
31. Judson "Fabio" Birza (Survivor: Nicaragua)
32. Jenna Morasca (Survivor: Amazon)
33. Bob Crowley (Survivor: Gabon)
---

Average Rankings Thus Far:

Richard Hatch - 5
Todd Herzog - 7.5
Sandra Diaz-Twine (PI) - 11.5
Tina Wesson - 11.5
Tony Vlachos - 12.5
Tom Westman - 13.5
Yul Kwon - 15
James "J.T." Thomas, Jr. - 16
Brian Heidik - 16.5
John Cochran - 18.5
Rob Mariano - 18.5
Parvati Shallow - 19.5
Tyson Apostol - 21
Aras Baskauskas - 21
Vecepia Towery - 22
Sandra Diaz-Twine (HvV) - 24
Natalie White - 25
Amber Brkich - 26
Adam Klein - 26
Sophie Clarke - 27
Michele Fitzgerald - 29.5
Jenna Morasca - 30.5
Judson "Fabio" Birza - 31.5
Mike Holloway - 31.5
Bob Crowley - 32
---

couple thoughts since i've last followed this list:

richard is really hard to quantify, given that he really "invented" the first survivor strategy. that said, he shouldn't be #1. i can accept that ranking and understand it, but personally i don't think it took a level of gameplay that matches the top winners.

todd is too high at #4. (inviso's spot seems pretty good) he was really, really good with the jury but made some not-great decisions and managed to get credit for all the good moves of his alliance. obviously there's some benefits in that but #4 puts him below some winners who completely dominated and shifted all the right times. (or stopped the game from shifting against them)
---

also i assume inviso is gonna give natalie a ton of love, which is excellent since she is probably the most underrated winner from a general viewpoint. i really wish she had gotten onto game changers; maybe she would've gotten the respect she deserves
---

I'd say Danni is the most underrated.
---

danni is the most overrated person left

(caveat: i havent watched guatemala since 2005)
---

Naye745 posted...

couple thoughts since i've last followed this list:

richard is really hard to quantify, given that he really "invented" the first survivor strategy. that said, he shouldn't be #1. i can accept that ranking and understand it, but personally i don't think it took a level of gameplay that matches the top winners.

todd is too high at #4. (inviso's spot seems pretty good) he was really, really good with the jury but made some not-great decisions and managed to get credit for all the good moves of his alliance. obviously there's some benefits in that but #4 puts him below some winners who completely dominated and shifted all the right times. (or stopped the game from shifting against them)

Yeah. Again, I respect Richard's win and find him a lot more impressive than your average casual, but I still don't think he warrants the number one spot on the basis of his legacy.

With Todd, it really came down to just how much Amanda's poor performance changed peoples' minds at the final tribal council. Todd had a great FTC, but Amanda blowing up swayed a LOT of votes against her.
---

Naye745 posted...

also i assume inviso is gonna give natalie a ton of love, which is excellent since she is probably the most underrated winner from a general viewpoint. i really wish she had gotten onto game changers; maybe she would've gotten the respect she deserves

Peridiam posted...

I'd say Danni is the most underrated.

Given they're still in on my list, I'd say they're both good winners and also both underrated. I think unless you're Parvati, or Sandra after winning twice, a female winner is almost always underrated compared to her male counterparts. Female winners, especially recent ones, seem to have a hard time connecting with the audience, especially since their seasons tend to get looked down upon, which furthers the "meh" narrative.
---

And yes those two posts were just filler to get us to a new page. What of it?
---

@AdmiralZephyr

But speaking of women getting overlooked... >_>

8. Kim Spradlin (Survivor: One World)

People claim Kim is overrated for the same reason people claim Richard is overrated: stupid competition. And…I definitely see that. I think the gender division created a much more intense tribal mentality among the women than perhaps they would’ve had otherwise, and I also think Colton’s chaotic gameplay ultimately weakened and fucked over the men. Giving up immunity was an utterly asinine decision, and Colton’s medevac gave the women even numbers going into the merge (plus he wasn’t allowed to pass off his idol, which could have impacted the game as well.)

All that being said, I think Kim is the kind of player who would’ve performed well regardless of the circumstances of the season. She’s in that sweet spot, age-wise, where she doesn’t get the disrespect of being a “young girl”, but also doesn’t get the unfair standards placed on her for being a mom (let’s face it, most older women cast on Survivor are moms.) She’s sociable (she has to be as a business owner), she’s athletic (4 immunity wins is nothing to sneeze at), and she had her finger on the pulse of the game well enough to know exactly what moves needed to be made to ensure her success.

Kim had her pre-merge alliance of five which stayed united, but after the swap, she reeled in the Manono alpha males without them questioning their position in the minority of her alliance. The men lost the second they let Jonas go without a fight. And then they lost again when Kim tricked Troyzan and blindsided Michael (all while being socially aware enough to swoop in and prevent Jay from fucking the blindside up in the first place.) You can call her competition stupid, sure, but a lot of that stupidity could easily be traced back to Kim just being a smooth talker who was really good at making people feel secure with her. Hence Jay getting himself voted out by blabbing about Troyzan’s idol.

Also important to note is how Kim handled her own alliance. Aside from Christina and Kat, these were not incompetent players. Alicia was an intelligent strategist, Sabrina was an intelligent strategist (who could easily have won herself), and Chelsea was a hard worker. Alicia positioned herself strongly, with Christina and Tarzan as pocket allies she could take to the end and win against. So what does Kim do? She convinces Alicia Tarzan is a threat, turns her against him, and secures her win by guaranteeing that everyone in the game will take HER to the finals. Then it’s just a matter of picking off Alicia/Christina and looking good against her two alleged underlings.

I think Kim could easily replicate this performance in another season, especially now that she’s shown that she’s a woman who can lead, and thus won’t risk falling into the pitfalls of juries inherently believing female players to be followers to their male counterparts. While the level of competition IS questionable, she still put on a damn good showing, especially when you consider how much people raved about Rob putting on a similar show just two seasons prior.
---