Lurker > scarletspeed7

It seems like a significant part of the main roster in WWE is not pleased with Hogan's non-apology at Extreme Rules. I'm not entirely surprised, and while I wouldn't assume there will be no pleasing some people, his apology sounded like it was primarily about excuses and mostly an apology for getting caught.

EDIT: And I just saw Biscuit's post about it. Derp.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

Yes because less conversation is always the right choice for a discussion topic.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

Did you know that of all of the main card matches, only one person who came out first won? I kept pointing it out to JONA. It was insane.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

He ordered them on Amazon Prime.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

Eddv posted...

Yeah Iron man should have gone on immediately after Nakamura/Hardy.

Because then it feels like this was the plan all along - to apologize for the non-match angle here have a 30 minute match with a bunch spots meant to pop you and get you back into the card for....Roman and Lashley.

Ok so its not the PERFECT plan but that's still the best way to book it when you have a card with literally no good feuds on it.

I want to say that two sudden heel gimmicky finishes in a row isn't a great idea, and Nakamura's is more interesting and got more buzz than Drew returning in Sudden Death. I would, theoretically, put that on near the end of the show. Hell, I almost would be inclined to main event it if AJ wasn't having a top title match.

And honestly, AJ/Rusev could have been built to with a major tag match. That feud felt very rushed.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

ScareChan posted...

the feuds with heat were

b team

bliss

soooo

This is not true. Ronda has heat. Bliss and Nia don't. B Team has a sort of wink-nudge smile, and a title change gets a pop, but the match didn't have heat.

The feuds with heat were actually:

____________________________
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

I would open with it and not change the RAW titles this time around.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

Sadly the stuff that wins is always stuff I have zero interest in.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

by MGMT
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

You can also easily tell which Sin Cara is which by determining if they fucked off back to CMLL when they couldn't figure out how to hang with Alberto El Batidor.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

(Missing the joke completely)
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

I didn't know that.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

TheRock1525 posted...

I know people will tell me I'm full of shit, but the WWE's decision to make Alexa Bliss the focus of the women's title for so damn long has ruined the women's division on RAW.

These two should be fighting over the belt.

I agree with this, if that means anything.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

What is everyone's current wrestling lineup?

I'm watching:
-Smackdown
-NXT
-Impact
-Lucha Underground
-Being the Elite
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

Did Fale officially side with Firing Squad? He just said, "Fuck Yujiro" in BTE.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

Also, is Fale officially out of the Bullet Club?
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

I'm catching up on Being the Elite, and there's a segment about 7:30 into last week's episode where Kenny Omega explains to the Bucks how to get matches better than 5 stars. It is, truly I tell you, the funniest segment I've seen on this show in months:



Also, if you like NJPW or ROH or even just want a really short wrestling-related show, I can't recommend this enough. It's a little rough at times, but it has a real charm to it.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

It's okay. I've thought about doing the same thing from time to time just to be more engaged about stuff on the board, but I haven't because I always feel like it's sort-of a self-absorbed thing to do. However, Leonhart does it and it really doesn't feel that way. I think it kind of depends on the user.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

Cole/Miz wasn't good setup for Miz. But it's a two-way street in that someone has to be good on commentary in order to get the other person over to the extent Heenan does with Flair.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

#18 - Robert "The Brain" Heenan Nominated by: Eddv




Bobby is the greatest color commentator in history because, if for nothing else, of the Royal Rumble in 1992. Heenan's character had one of the strongest senses of character internal logic and continuity of any commentator in wrestling history, and quite honestly, everyone today could learn from him. Heenan was able to weave a line of getting himself over as a fun character while also getting over the talent. Heenan also perfected the art of being the second commentator in a way no one else ever has.

In recent days, I've become less and less enamored with Corey Graves because he doesn't really provide any insight into the characters in front of him. In fact, he makes them less interesting. Inversely, Heenan was the perfect choice to be on commentary with Hulk Hogan in the ring, for example. No matter what Hogan did, Heenan saw it as blasphemous, utterly and completely immoral, virtually repugnant. But he almost always followed it with some sort of logic. Part of this is because the egos of Vince and Hulk saw the behavior Hulk displayed as good, and the rest of the world looks back at it as tantrum-throwing narcissism. Then here is Heenan saying exactly what you're thinking. But because Heenan is so damn good at being bad, you can't believe him. Heenan's character would harass and harangue people based on race, size, looks, and intelligence to such a degree that you just didn't want to believe him when he was right.

What's interesting is that Heenan maintained his consistency when all of wrestling flip-flopped. When Hogan turned heel in WCW, Heenan maintained his character personally. Somehow, Heenan was still a heel commentator and yet he just utterly hated Hogan for turning on WCW. This contributed immensely in making the NWO come across as a force behind normal heel antics. They were a real, shoot group of bad guys. This wasn't wrestling anymore; this was survival. In reality, Heenan was maintaining the same view he always presented in regards to Hogan, and yet his self-serving position now lined up with the good guys. And when you can unite Professor X and Magneto against the same threat, you know that threat is something special. Heenan continued to rant against the Hulkster-turned-Hollywood and that line of continuity really created something special in WCW.

But I do want to end this discussion with the '92 Rumble. Heenan is tasked with giving an hour of commentary on top of Ric Flair's run through the entire roster, and Flair ends up coming off like the biggest superstar ever thanks to Heenan. Every entrant is a threat to Flair, Flair is just being murdered, no one seems to care, this is NOT FAIR TO FLAIR. Poor Ric Flair, the cocky, arrogant out-of-towner, now he's being subjected to the hate of an entire roster. Why was he forced to draw #3 in a Rumble? How can each person come in and beat him like this? Don't they know who this is? Ric was supposed to win the title tonight, this is an outrage! I've never before or since (aside from JR's unhealthy love for Austin) seen a worker given so much setup by a commentator. And we should demand this from announcers. Sadly, Bobby Heenans are just few and far between.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

Wedge Antilles posted...

Punching these things out quickly. I like.

Looking forward to that top 10.

I felt bad about the vacation slowing me to even more of a crawl than normal, and Monday is a super-light day at the store!
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

#19 - Hiromu Takahashi Nominated by: CybrMonkey




God, Hiromu is a fantastic wrestler. But his style is kind of a pain in the neck.

I didn't really like Hiromu when he was in Ring of Honor, but my opinion was drastically altered when he began in New Japan. Unlike Jay White, who I just have a really hard time caring about, Takahashi has left an utterly indelible impression ingrained in my mind. I hate to say it but the Ticking Time Bomb is the kind of wrestler you better enjoy while you can. His absurdly risky daredevil antics make a career the length of, say, Chris Jerichos or Yuji Nagatas seem very unlikely. This is a guy whos made a regular habit of doing hurricanranas over the top rope, out of the ring and onto the floor outside. As New Japans IWGP Junior Heavyweight Champion, the former Kamaitachi has had maybe more great matches in 2017 and 2018 than anyone other than Okada and Omega. His fantastic Wrestle Kingdom 11 match with Kushida was followed by so many fantastic matches that I can barely keep track.

And despite his daredevil style, it's his character which I love the most. How do I describe the beauty that is Takahashi, the almost childlike innocence personified in the red-headed man. Takahashi, who would talk to the belt whenever Naito held it up. Takahashi, who turned a stuffed cat into one of the best side characters in the history of wrestling. Takahashi, who caused the crowd to cry when his stuffed toy named Darryl was ripped apart by a ignorant brute. Takahashi who got over a Darryl Jr. with crowd somehow. It's amazing what his wide-eyed naivete mixed with his evil, crazy-eyed wrestling style combines to create.

Takahashi might explode at any minute, but until that happens he might be the most thrilling wrestler in the business.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

Lopen posted...

I would put his promos as much better than Chris Benoit's for example despite at their heart being similar characters.

Completely agree. I think part of it was gimmick positioning in that Malenko was this Iceman and Benoit was a "killer". He also was positioned as a Horseman and, while I think that's not bad in theory, it was bad in practice. It needed to be a different kind of Horsemen. I always thought that a Horsemen made up of guys handpicked by Arn would be less frills, more kills. Benoit would have fit in with that. But trying to make him a wining, dining jet setter just didn't work.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

#20 - Dean Malenko Nominated by: GOGZero




If you know me, you know my favorite era of wrestling is WCW 1995-1998. So include that bias if you want in the rest of this write-up.

When I look at the supremely successful WCW, I see a lot of characters that are larger-than-life, grandiose, cartoonish in some respects, but all of them clearly dialed up to 11. Then I look at Dean Malenko, the soft-spoken but brutal cruiserweight, and I actually see one of the most singularly realistic characters in wrestling history. While many people looked at Dean at the time as a boring promo, I saw a character that really demonstrated a realistic approach to wrestling. Dean was a guy with the drive and ambition to be king of a division. He consistently made his goals clear - he wanted to be the top guy in at least some respect, and he his robotic, mechanical presence actually was a far cry from the brighter, more colorful guys in the ring. This made him utterly, utterly unique.

So many times these days I hear people putting a huge premium on promos. But in WCW, you had two hours for 30 plus guys to wrestle and/or cut promos, leaving very short windows to get your point across. I always thought that Dean's character worked perfectly in a world where you had two minutes on the mic or 7 minutes in the ring. And that's the sort of pacing that works best on television. Dean had a wide array of moves that looked and felt real and yet also were entertaining. How would Mysterio escape Malenko's holds? Dean had a strong physique and a no-nonsense approach that made it feel like your favorite guy was wrestling an unrepentant cyborg.

Over time, however, Dean actually developed out of being a heel. His consistency was the key. Here was a guy that fans could rely on for great matches. And over time, his cold attitude actually become welcome. You knew it wasn't from a place of malice. So when worse and worse attitudes entered the division, you hearkened back to the guy that had no frills or flairs and just wanted to be the best he could be. You came to respect it because Dean Malenko's goals weren't counterintuitive to the audience. Unlike Syxx who refused to defend the title except in the most unfair of circumstances, Dean took all comers. And once Jericho rose to prominence, the wonderful added wrinkle of Dean's father came into play.

Jericho and Malenko is an example of a perfect feud. I know that's a dangerous statement to make, but it's absolutely true. Malenko was generous enough to allow Jericho to tear apart his family at a particularly tough juncture, and Jericho saw what made Malenko work. Malenko was placed in an emotional crux but eventually remembered that he had to fight those emotions down in order to be the wrestler he was. And when you look at the rest of his run, it's always about putting aside the heart for the head. It's actually a fairly unique story in the history of wrestling. Jericho just happened to help highlight it the best, making Dean's return after his father's death really feel like it meant something.

I know that there is a lot of "you ranked this guy too highly" floating around in people's minds, and that's why I wanted to concentrate on the personality aspect of Dean that is so often ignored because, in its era, it was just not recognized. He also, you know, wrestled. And I've really never seen a guy as crisp and perfect in the role of a cruiserweight. I can't rave enough at how his moves just felt really every time you watched them. Sure, he didn't have the heights of flippery that we think of fondly from cruiserweights, but he had a gravity that the rest sorely lack. And it was that gravity that made him stand out.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

I think your complaints are the booking primarily and I do tend to give potential a big piece of this ranking. Bayley comes off as a submissive loser and Becky comes off as confident and hardworking.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

#21 - Becky Lynch Nominated by: Inviso




This will get a lot of blowback, but in terms of pure babyfaces, there are two who are best in the world simply at being babyface: Juice Robinson and Becky Lynch. I'm not talking about their wrestling styles (although I think both work extremely well and are oft-overlooked in that regard). I'm speaking primarily of the ability to generate the sort of charisma necessary for a crowd to get behind them.

To me, Becky is the sort of Irish character that Vince has always wanted but never figured out how to make. His brand of machismo and bravado trumps the vulnerability that makes someone like Johnny Gargano get over with the crowd. Triple H actually sees that vulnerability as a strength of character and not a weakness. Vince sees any sort of socialization or kindness as tantamount to stupidity, so therefore the character should be killed for being human.

In a women's division, however, Vince doesn't see machismo as valuable. Instead, women can actually have a certain quality of kindness, and Becky is a natural at it. She demonstrates a team mentality in and out of the ring, and her overall appearance is one of love for her craft. That's so rare to find - genuine kindness. WWE manufactures it so much that it doesn't have that organic quality that Becky has. Therefore, I find it so easy to get behind her and root for her.

Beckster also is my brand of humor. I know a lot of people on this board hate her puns and things of that nature, but Becky's jokes are far and away better than the Vince fecal humor (portajohns and shit dropping from the ceiling) because they get her over in a way no one else thinks of trying. Shitty Seth Rollins scripted lines (Sparkle Crotch) do nothing to ingratiate him with me when you have Becky constantly making her own momentum with amusing and brief comedy spots like quinoa. I just prefer that brand of humor in a babyface. It demonstrates that she isn't stupid; she has a quick wit. Her flaw is that she's too trusting, and I can live with that in the same way I lived with that in Sting during his entire WCW run.

Becky is, honestly, Sting. And that's a real compliment.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

You don't pay as much to go to a live event as you do going to a wrestling show. And movies don't go out of their way to show awesome fight scenes and then go "NVM it's three seconds long" like Nakamura and Hardy.

Indiana Jones versus the sword-wielder. And it gets the winner over.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

eaedwards6400 posted...

I think this is a spot on analysis!

Thanks. I really don't blame Seth/Dolph for being anything except incorrectly positioned. If you had put it second or third, it would have played.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

I just want to point out that, had this show featured some more competitive matches, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Nakamura/Jeff was actually a really great move for Nakamura and the sort of surprising sequence that gets a crowd riled up. It made Nakamura look clever, heelish and also like a guy with a really dominating finisher. Orton made a return with questionable motives and that set up a scene in the US Title division with questions that actually can propel someone to watch Smackdown to find out more. Similarly, the B Team win wasn't particularly surprising but it energized the crowd and started the show strong. You had a Bobby/Roman match that was actually not terrible. The crowd wasn't into it, but if you wanted Bobby to look like a threat, beating Roman was the right choice. Braun and KO peaked at the finish and the crowd was really into it.

Daniel Bryan/Bludgeons was really kind of botched in the end since the announcers really didn't get over what was happening and the fact that the Bludgeons really didn't dominate Bryan near the end. You also didn't have Bryan really attempting to make a tag to Kane that couldn't be made. It just looked like Bryan lost because he lost.

Carmella and Asuka was a real shitfest. Comedy spots are fine, don't get me wrong, but this is just the wrong kind of comedy. It makes Asuka look like such a clown when a simple head into a cage ends her. Carmella has never come across as compelling and the crowd is consistently dead for her. In a division with over talent like Naomi or skilled talent like Becky and Charlotte, Carmella is clearly the wrong choice. On the RAW side, the women's match only really found heat when Ronda stepped in the wrong. The rest of the time, the match was pretty dull and lacked much in the way of heat. I think Alexa came out to a much smaller pop than normal, and that's a sign she's reaching overexposure. There's nothing wrong with backseating someone for a short period of time and taking them off TV for a month or two. It helped Orton in his return on this show.

Meanwhile the pre-show had a really great New Day/Sanity match. That's the sort of competition this show lacked. It even fit the Extreme Rules concept much better than the majority of this show.

I think if top to bottom the show had more compelling wrestling matches, the crowd would have been more into what was happening. As it was, there were some good angles but not a lot of good wrestling, and so you had a lukewarm crowd that was apt to do their own thing since WWE does not have interest in training the crowd. They have purposely antagonized the crowd for a long time, and now the crowd is trained to be ill-behaved. If you went to NXT, they would be much more apt to cheer people they don't necessarily like because they've been trained that NXT tries in good faith to entertain and provide the best show they can at a Takeover.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

Congrats, Nick!
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

#22 - Jushin 'THUNDER' Liger Nominated by: Snake



Jushin Thunder Liger is probably the most unique talent to be ranked on this list. He was never a world champion, and unlike some of the other talents on this list who never became world champion, like Ted DiBiase, Liger never even came close. In addition, he was never really valued as a main event star, always having great mid-card matches but never main eventing that many major shows like all of his Japanese contemporaries did during the boom periods of wrestling in that country. However, with all of that being said, is there any doubt that Liger is one of the top wrestlers of the last 50 years? Would anyone deny the claim that he is one of the most exciting and skilled performers in wrestling history? Could you even begin to tell the history of professional wrestling over the last thirty years and not mention Liger? The answer to all of those questions is no, and despite his lack of world championship success, Liger is probably the most inspirational wrestler of the last three decades.

Liger's contribution to actual in-ring action cannot be underestimated. Not only was he a tremendous athlete capable of doing breath-taking aerial maneuvers, but his skilled amateur background made him one of the well-rounded workers of his generation. While he wasn't the originator of coming off of the top rope, he combined those moves with great technical wrestling. Liger's colorful persona and immense talent allowed him to get over in other markets outside of Japan. Not only was he a huge star in Mexico, but ask any casual wrestling fan to name a Japanese wrestler, chances are if they know one, it will be Liger.

Currently, there is a great group of high-flyers wrestling all over the world as wrestling continues to get faster and more athletic. Liger, along with some other influential wrestlers, has had a greater impact on wrestlers around the world, than probably any other wrestler since 1980. Anytime you see someone do a hurrancanrana off of the top rope, or someone do a shooting star press, that is Liger's influence reigning supreme over a wrestling match. Maybe he wasn't a world champion but Liger was certainly one of the most important figures in professional wrestling history.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

UltimaterializerX posted...

Lopen posted...

I honestly would only respect Willis over any random on the street if he was giving insight on the character of John McClane. Anything beyond that I would not respect anything about his interpretation vs mine or anyone else's except the writer (who isn't the end all either but they do deserve more respect than randos)

Oh dude I could make a topic saying cancer is bad and Board 8 would say it's good. Let's not pretend this topic is an example of anything different.

Except it actually is a completely different topic.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

"The virtue of all-in wrestling is the spectacle of excess."

Wow first sentence in and he already predicted Cody Rhodes' greatest success.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

The funny thing about kids dabbing is that when they do it, they look around expectantly as if waiting for some sort of approval. And it never comes.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

Lord illogical hawk posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

Writers and directors determine the interpretation of their own content. Actors are employees.

They really don't though. At best they can give their take on what they were going for, by interpretation and experience is still entirely in the eye of the beholder.

Death of the Author is only applicable in matters of subtextual analysis and not surface prima facie evidence.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

ExThaNemesis posted...

Jay White vs Hiroshi Tanahashi tonight will be better than everything at Extreme Rules.

But it won't have the unbridled rage of a Josh Barnett.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

ExThaNemesis posted...

In the morning I watched Kenny Omega and Tetsuya Naito put on an absolute classic.

Tonight I come home to read about how the WWE fans spent all of Ziggler/Rollins trolling about the fucking clock during their iron man match.

WWE and its fans truly deserve one another.

Remember last year how people were really down on NXT fans getting themselves over? At least when they got themselves over, they were also getting over the workers. And now at Takeovers they really have become mark-ish, true fans. The WWE mainliners, meanwhile, are just becoming untenable.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

Okay that ending made me laugh so hard. I approve.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

I don't understand the issue with multiple logical falls in a short amount of time like this. It makes sense and it's a nice change of pace from how these matches typically go. I mean, you have Dolph and Seth. Of course this was going to be unorthodox.

I like this. It's a great change of pace.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

StealThisSheen posted...

Also, fuck this crowd

I've actually never been as pissed off by a crowd as this.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

ScareChan posted...

what are they chanting

Where's the clock

They took it down
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

TheRock1525 posted...

If the audience is gonna count the last 10 seconds to each minute and make the RR noise, I am going to declare Pittsburgh the worst audience of all time.

I was just thinking this.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

TheRock1525 posted...

Wait... Vince played the long game.

10 years ago we rejected Bobby Lashley.

So he formulated a plan to create someone we'd hate even more.

Then he brings back Lashley to take him down and be the new top babyface!

Vince, you son of a bitch!

Solid point here honestly.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

It's just a very glacial match.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

Well this feud was about Owens being a babyface that was facing unjust management and, in the end, only finding solace in a Pyrrhic victory. Good tragic storytelling.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

Team RK Low Blow confirmed
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

davidponte posted...

At least we get an instant classic out of Nakamura/Hardy.

This didn't age well. xD
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

Okay I just turned around on this show. Perfection.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

Wow. That was a finish.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer

That SummerSlam commercial was maybe their worst commercial ever.
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"Reading would be your friend." ~Dave Meltzer