Lurker > Steiner

RaidenGarai posted...

I really need to listen to that podcast. If it's talking about how bad Vince is it seems like it'd be the perfect listen for me!

it's must listen
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

TheRock1525 posted...

Also didn't Ambrose heavily imply Roman deserved his cancer in a promo?

yeah, imagine what the line he wouldn't say could have been
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

WarThaNemesis2 posted...

If Moxley had actual ill feelings towards WWE, he could have put them in the ground just by following the scripts they gave him in regards to Roman.

if bad dialogue was gonna put wwe in the ground we've had ziggler for years
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

Jakyl25 posted...

Dave said he got the impression that they figured to combat AEW they wanted to focus on what they think they do best, which is non-wrestling segments

then what are they paying all these wrestlers for!
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

https://twitter.com/SoDuTw/status/1133476814477832194

this is one of the most damning tells about wwe and what they value
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

TheRock1525 posted...

Wait, is Cody really that much of a draw? Like I don't really believe he's on the same level as Omega or Jericho.

he's a step below those two but was the biggest draw for ROH over the past couple of years, right along with the Bucks
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

i simply mean that signing that tv deal is a level of success that tna never pulled off
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

yeah i'm actually making no assumptions about what they do on TV - i'm solely talking about where we stand today, with AEW having a TV deal with TNT signed, and that making them more successful than TNA ever was.
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

i mean, the tv deal is signed and isn't about to be unsigned - it's a factor that is in play at the point we're having this conversation, and it's a better tv deal than impact ever had.
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

welp, i guess we found our biggest misunderstanding
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

i don't understand - is your argument now "well tna's television show has aired"? i dunno if i need to spell this out but a huge part of the confidence we have in aew, and reason we believe it's already more successful than tna ever has been, is signing that tv deal. if you want to moot it because it doesn't start yet then... i don't even know what discussion there is to have.
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

Lopen posted...

I still think you guys are underestimating the value of a TV deal though

we're not, but AEW has a better TV deal so it's an argument in AEW's favour.
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

if we're gonna have a tna argument can we get smuffin in here
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

Lopen posted...

and their non Impact Zone attendances were generally pretty okay in the 3-5000 range.

June 2008-Dec 2008: 36 shows (1188 average) and 35 other shows
Jan 2009-Dec 2009: 61 shows (1198 average) and 49 other shows
Jan 2010-Dec 2010: 67 shows (1284 average) and 51 other shows
Jan 2011-Dec 2011: 74 shows (1314 average) and 58 other shows
Jan 2012-Dec 2012: 58 shows (1064 average) and 69 other shows
Jan 2013-Dec 2013: 60 shows (1493 average) and 30 other shows
Jan 2014-Feb 2014: 13 shows (1723 average)
http://indeedwrestling.blogspot.com/2014/02/a-word-about-roh-and-tna-draws.html

"I wasn't including the Orlando tapings in my calculations."
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

Lopen posted...

My argument is less no one cares about AEW and more that less people care about it (currently-- I expect that their shows on TNT will actually be good and they'll realize their potential quickly) than you might think from just taking the numbers at face value.

i thought it was that TNA were at some point in their history as big as aew are now
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

Lopen posted...

My point is that AEW right now is capitalizing so well because it's a relative unknown with a lot of hype and almost as importantly because it only has two shows a year.

With an established brand like RoH or TNA you can only capitalize on anti-WWE sentiment so well because you know exactly what you're getting there if you care to put the effort in. You don't just have to be anti-WWE but also pro what they're offering to some extent, and if what they're offering isn't working for you it's a pass.

i actually agree with this! i only spent so long arguing because you said tna was ever at this level. when tna was fresh it was doing weekly pay per views with no buzz and when it got good tv it was established as something where people pretty much knew what they were getting

the other difference is i don't think "anti wwe sentiment" is a big enough factor to sell a single ticket and you were clearly unaware of how successful as draws the elite have proven to be, which is what made all your other arguments sound stupid (and you tried to discuss the 2019 wrestling business without even knowing one of the big stories - the MSG sellout)

but this point, i agree with! and in the first 6 weeks more and more people will find out aew isn't what their imagined version of a perfect wrestling show is and jump off board and it's only from that point they'll get to build their own base
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

I thought I was done but I gotta know these shows Kenny and Chris Jericho aren't reliably drawing on
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

Lopen is so disconnected from reality here he's really not worth continuing to discuss this with.
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

I think MSG was like half an hour? But I'm surprised you think that's more impressive - when it can easily be put down to NJPW and proximity to Wrestlemania.

Also it's just occurred to me I didn't even mention Jericho in the previous post
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

Lopen posted...

If those guys were draws at that level RoH shows would be doing better.

they were. ROH sold out madison square garden off their back and did their biggest gate ever in chicago when kenny headlined last year.
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

Lopen posted...

The fact that it sold out so quickly, back when it scarcely even had a card announced, should be your first red flag that people are currently treating it less like a wrestling show on its own merits and more like a rallying support for a serious wrestling competitor to WWE.

but people knew Kenny, the Bucks and Cody were involved. I don't understand how you've said this point multiple times.
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

or for a genuine answer - i don't think it matters, the life of the established living person is more important than any unborn child. abort during labour for all i care.
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

about 19
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

NBIceman posted...

4. Pastor William Eaver as PROGRESS Champion

god. look at that list of champions now. fucking hell.
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

just so you know, i have seen my category and i am deep in research
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

iiicon posted...

i don't think aew will hit tna's highest tv numbers, at least not out of the gate, and i could be convinced that tna's highest ppv numbers are higher than double or nothing's. aew is still a much bigger deal than tna ever was.

yeah i actually debated making this point earlier - i'd be very surprised if AEW came close to a 1.4 out of the gate and 80,000 would be a really good number for Double or Nothing
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

i mean i don't "think" but i'm being polite
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

and just a point about tna's marketing; if you had the tna marketing team on that for 6 months they could turn the 3000 they actually drew into 0
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

Lopen posted...

Put it another way, peak TNA had better ratings than WWE does now

i thought tna's peak number was 1.4?
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

this comparison to TNA though does bring me to the one biggest concern for AEW come september - weekly television tapings, and filling them. that is going to be a momentous struggle. that's something TNA never answered - you can do the Impact Zone thing, but it's a guaranteed money loser and you're not keeping that hot crowd for long if it's the same one every week. much more likely they take it on the road but getting 1000+ for tv every single week in different cities... that is no doubt a huge challenge.
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

the second part is all ancillary - there's lots of explanations for why tna never managed to become as big as this, and they're all a mildly interesting point of discussion and not something i would waste time arguing about. the only thing i'm arguing about is your assertion that at some point in tna's history they would be able to sell out a 12,000 seat arena at some fixed location in the united states. not as to whether it's a bigger deal that tna got to where they did or whatever.
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

Wanglicious posted...

i'd say AEW is currently bigger

this is the only point i thought we were arguing
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

Lopen posted...

Yeah I know you think a few thousand more people at 2 shows outweighs a national TV show and sustained events that draw decent houses I'm just clarifying my position

AEW has a national TV show so that's a draw. it's not aired yet but simply having one - they've done. on a bigger station too.

TNA could never sustain drawing - every time they went on the road it was a business disaster, and the majority of all events they ever ran were free attendance.
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

Lopen posted...

just saying that I'm not really buying that they are right now.

and just to be clear, this is what you're wrong about
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

if this was a show people were just watching out of wwe malaise they wouldn't be flying across the country to fill 13000 seats. the brand is hotter than TNA has ever been.
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

Lopen posted...

A lot of those people just want something to watch and are there for the hype as much as anything.

i only just saw this one. i know it's you saying the same thing three times but i have to disagree with it all three times because this completely wrong assumption seems to be central to your argument?
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

Lopen posted...

AEW attendance the question is more "are there wrestling fans that are dissatisfied with the alternatives right now" and less "are there wrestling fans that want to see AEW."

an identity that isn't just hype centered around being not WWE.

i couldn't disagree more with this. WWE has been bad for years and it's never done anything for competition. the brand AEW has is what people want to see, and is unique unto itself with its own appeal.
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

i'm prepared to hear out arguments on the quality of TNA forever but don't ever let it be said they had success.
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

tna never once ran a show that a significant number of people would travel for. not one time.
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/77702749/922434585

TNA's big Pay Per View in 2010:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockdown_(2010)

Attendance: 3,023

now, I understand the argument is going to be scarcity of shows - but if "already being on Spike TV for years" isn't a stronger pro for your company than "has ran no shows" that's an indictment on your shows
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

-hotdogturtle-- posted...

I started generating the next bracket.

this is tremendous
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

https://wrestlingisgood.home.blog/2019/05/27/matches-of-the-week-may-19th-25th/

This week I put the writeups for my top 5 in blog form but they are:

5. Cody vs. Dustin
4. Will Ospreay vs. El Phantasmo
3. Young Bucks vs. Lucha Bros
2. Dragon Lee vs. Shingo
1. Rocky Romero vs. El Phantasmo
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

Snake5555555555 posted...

yeah this is very difficult, to be honest, that is what happened with discord, im sorry that our community is getting hurt because of your decision

man you really had to lay it out like that huh
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

i guess it's still interesting to learn how much of b8 isn't in the discord
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

Oh damn
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

https://twitter.com/AEWrestling/status/1132859918338236418

https://twitter.com/JonMoxley/status/1132868564132741120

i think mox is about to have quite the year
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

Mox confirmed as the NJPW Time's Up guy, will face Juice for the US title at Dominion
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

an own goal happened
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

they're already that
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

dragon gate are not in that conversation. maybe both cmll and aaa?
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Advokaiser makes me feel eternal. All this pain is an illusion.