Lurker > Lopen

swordz9 posted...

They started as games first, but the Pokemon and Fire Emblem characters have anime all over them. Sonic never seemed like he would really fit to me. Snakes from an entirely different genre and nobody in the Smash series looks more out of place than Game & Watch.

This is kinda true

Definitely think Solid Snake is more out of place than Goku by far in any case. And I loved Snake being in Brawl don't get me wrong but he was easily the sorest thumb there ever was and likely ever will br unless Master Chief actually does get in someday.
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Pretty sure numbers has 2 Clouds so he definitely kept playing after that. Though that was definitely a big part of why he stopped I'm sure
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Pretty sure Voltch and FFD could be counted on to save her once in a while-- not that they were regulars but Exvius + not being opposed to her. Me and numbers would too pretty often and used to play the game. Just off the top of my head.

Numbers probably would save her either way with or without Exvius to be fair were he here but maybe not. He may have hit the point like me where disenfranchisement put him off from saving her.
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Garnet is inoffensive, but pretty generic. Honestly have an easier time defining personalities of most of the FF2 cast than her. Independent and courageous are basically it for her.

Zidane has a pretty well defined personality but it kinda changes wildly with poor rationale for doing so depending on what the game wants him to do at the time. It's easy to overlook for example that You're Not Alone doesn't really make any sense in character because the music is cool. He's a rare character where I feel like less "character depth" would help him a lot
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FF2 is actually more in line with the later FFs in terms of presentation and characterization. People dislike it because of the battle mechanics more so than the plot.

Not that you have high standards for these things given you opened with Garnet and Zodane.
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Eh I'd say about half of her supporters played the game. Given she wasn't exactly a powerhouse to begin with she needed every bit of support she could get to stay alive.
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Well I wasn't lying about people who supported her largely abandoning Brave Exvius, being one of them. Between the power creep and repetitive grindy events that game has been hemorrhaging players on b8. Still has a decent amount but none are SMFFFC people aside from like Kleenex p sure (who wasn't even one of her supporters)
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Kind of a shame she probably won't ever get stats

Was that her third or second contest?
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Zidane is more of a meme save than Minwu
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Not surprising. Most of the people who supported her have stopped playing Brave Exvius or stopped posting entirely
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Agnes Oblige
Setzer
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X-Death
Minwu
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You didn't keep Setzer in anyway I did
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Wow has Ysh really only been in so few that we're considering as possibly 3 or less. Weird!
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Dr Mog
Setzer
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Also imo SotN counts. He's got a pretty significant role in the game even beyond Richter mode. Wouldn't count Portrait of Ruin but SotN should be fair game

I've played Dracula X and Rondo of Blood too though
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Lolo_Guru posted...

She congratulates Pit at the end.

Oh really huh well cross her off my list too then I guess
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X-Death
Wakka
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Wow is easily in the discussion for best game ever if that is your thing.

Even considering the genre, now having played a few MMOs I feel like it's pretty below the curve compared to most MMOs after it and only had such a following due to getting its foot in the door first

But I'm not exactly the type of audience for that game so maybe it has certain addictive or actual good gameplay qualities others don't. Alternatively maybe it's improved greatly since like 2009 when I gave it something resembling a legitimate shot.
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Rosalina
Bowser Jr.
Dark Samus
Lucas
Ice Climbers
Marth
Dark Pit
Palutena
Captain Olimar
R.O.B
Shulk
Inkling

Not too bad I guess. 12. Thought I'd have more.
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Alright well if you wanna say he's 4 now that's fine-- I've missed a few recent Kirby games, but what I say still applies to the 5th, or Metroid's third, or whatever
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I think I can call this marginally less dumb than Ulti's version. Brood War I can at least humor being in the discussion for best game ever
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That only matters for purposes of my example if you have evidence that Fire Emblem fans are requesting that character. That argument is loaded against Fire Emblem too because there are so many beloved characters the pool is way bigger

Like people who have only played Mario games will request Mario characters and then proceed to nearly never play them over the 10 other Mario characters in the game, but hey you got the character you wanted
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Like to elaborate a bit I dunno Cherche is probably barely top 20 at best in terms of most popular Awakening characters

But ask a bunch of people who like Fire Emblem and Kirby whether they'd rather have Cherche or whoever the 4th most popular Kirby character is and I bet Cherche wins in a landslide.

Obviously some diversity in FE reps would be better but I'm just saying trying for anything resembling series parity isn't going to make more people happy overall. It just spites FE fans for characters their own fanbases largely don't even care about.

It simply has more characters that people cling to by nature of the games having huge casts where characters are on average more relevant than non mains from other series, never mind the fact the series itself has like 20 games on top of that.
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I mean Fire Emblem Awakening as a stand alone game probably has more second string reps an appreciable amount of people are interested in than most other Nintendo series combined. There isn't a ton of depth to say Kirby so even if I would love to see a Waddle Doo character or something, I acknowledge I'm in the minority there.
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Of course the ironic thing is Chrom is my favorite one of the FE Swordies in the game as a character so I'm not upset he's in (and hell in 4 I used Lucina way more than Marth so way I see it the boring additions are improving the game), just saying I understand why people would be.
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pjbasis posted...

The similarities helps an FE fan hop between them easily though.

It's like saying all the Mario characters should have a fireball on their neutral B and a spin thing on their down B so fans can jump between them more easily.

Just give me some archers, mages, axe users, lances that have more wildly different reaches, range games, don't blow half their specials on keeping with a dumb theme, and I support as many FE Characters as possible, but even as one of the biggest Fire Emblem fans you'll find playing Smash I get irritated by a buncha phoned in legendary sword users instead of, even limiting to main characters, more potentially interesting entries like Ephraim Hector Micaiah etc etc
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pjbasis posted...

Lopen posted...

Like there is no reason Ike should have a charge B and a counter.

I think it's intentional. The similarities are made that way so that FE characters feel like a bloc despite their differences. Since they are from the same series and all.

It very well may be. It really shouldn't be if you wanna put that many of them in the game though.
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I mained Marth in Melee and am actually a Fire Emblem fan and my gut feeling with Ike is "I'm using Heavy Hitting Marth." That functionally makes them very different to play, but there are a lot of overlapping basic concepts there. Some of that is necessity because of the weapons they use, art style they have, and game they're from but minimizing similarities where you can should be a priority.

Like there is no reason Ike should have a charge B and a counter. That doesn't mean that's the entirety of what makes him feel similar, but every victory helps
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I mean it's not as simple as "this attack hits here with Ike and here with Marth." That's the argument you make if you just want to win on a technicality or don't understand what's being said

It's recurring themes like similar reaches cause they all have swords of similar lengths, no projectiles, disjoint hitbox due to their weapons, similar jumping arcs and stage return paths, etc etc.

Like keep in mind this isn't they play similarly this is them having a more similar feeling when you're using them than they really should.
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KamikazePotato posted...

I think the samey-ness of Fire Emblem characters to some people isn't in their playstyle so much as it is their aesthetics.

That's what I was replying to btw.

Like yeah aesthetics is part of it but there is a lot more to it than that. They do have a lot more functional gameplay similarities than you'd like to admit even if dissecting them you can swear up and down against it. It ends up making them feel more similar than they should even if they play very differently. This wouldn't be a problem but the brand already has that stigma from the aesthetics and literal clones.

Like I'm not saying Ike provides no unique value or that he's just a glorified echo, just that in a series with 4 reps that more or less are he comes closer to it than he should.
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I mean KP you realize if you laid Sakura and Ryu's movesets side to side like that they'd probably be more different right

But they both have the shoto branding. Now it's not really a problem on its own but when you've got two literal clones on top of two virtual clones on top of that, all from Fire Emblem, Ike isn't helping as much as he maybe could.
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Well no it's not just the two special moves being very similar, though changing those a bit would also help.

It's just a lot of little factors that add up when changing any of em would probably remove the sameyness feel they have (cause as said the playstyle isn't really similar) but saying it's just aesthetics is dumbing it down a bit.
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Honestly even Ike has more similarities than I'd like. Yes he plays differently enough but it's a bit more than the aesthetics there. There are common mechanics shared by the way Smash treats its weapon users that ends up shared between all of em, and a decent amount of his attacks end up having similar swinging arcs. Also a charge up neutral B and a counter on down + B. He's not Ken to Marth's Ryu or even Akuma to Marth's Ryu but... Dan or Sakura to Marth's Ryu maybe?

If his aesthetics were different it would help, though.
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Dr_Football posted...

but it certainly is a reason that happens that doesnt exist in the AL

Well it's just another factor to consider in whether to take the pitcher out or not. I'd argue it doesn't make it easier or more difficult in general, just that it weights the likelihood of taking a guy out at various times differently.
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Iris wasn't zerged at least IIRC I'm not as upset about it
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Free Fbike
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Agnes Oblige
Yuffie
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Dr_Football posted...

The counter to this is that its easier for NL teams to decide when to pull their starters (oh hes up to bat I guess hes done for the day) as opposed to the AL who has to decide after every batter if thats the last one

Implying NL teams only ever pull their starters when they're coming up to bat soon,
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X-Death
Minwu
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I think the thing with Fire Emblem vs Kirby is like

Fans of just Kirby would rather see the Kirby character, fans of just Fire Emblem would rather see the Fire Emblem character, and fans of both are going to prefer the Fire Emblem character, and that's generally going to be true no matter how many Fire Emblem characters you put in.

And that's going to be true for second string Fire Emblem vs second string of pretty much any series that's in the game right now, because Fire Emblem is just a more character driven game with more focus put on those side characters.

And I don't think that's a bad thing. Once you're in the second string you've pretty much spent the "casual who is just excited about the mainstream offerings." Series diversity only matters if you're deficient in the non-repped series. Trying to keep everyone perfectly even, or in descending order of series popularity, by shoehorning minor characters in from series like Kirby or Metroid where the fanbase itself hardly cares, it's largely a waste of effort.

My only issue with Fire Emblem is too many of the characters could just be Marth Echoes and you wouldn't know the difference. Get some axe users or archers in there. Like Robin is an awesome character cause she actually does different stuff as opposed to almost every other Fire Emblem character in the game.
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It also has a better chance of taking out Hawkman than Actually Real Characters. List is a sham.
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All in all my vision for the team was sort of a light hearted thing, with important issues arising during confrontations like Human Torch being like "why the hell are you even throwing me at them you know I can fly and throw fire right" and Deadpool volunteering to be thrown for no real productive end and discussions about "why are we called The Bullpen-- we're more important than things for Colossus to throw-- and who made him team leader anyway"

I think you've got a pretty good mix of humor with potential to be serious when needed and the basics needed for a cohesive team, which is all I was really going for there. It's probably my most "normal" team of my submissions in that it's kind of just an all purpose group and I suppose in a loose sense it is a Lopen's Angels team in a way because I do like all the characters, but I did try to observe things I thought were important for solid team fundamentals to some extent (lack of redundancy, ability to cooperate and get along with one another, and a not super varied power scale that makes the members for the most part all able to be useful) and most of these aren't anywhere near my favorites or anything
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Well not really. Throwing a fireball is not the same as throwing a dude who grows and shrinks or throwing a guy who cuts things. They have different applications and different roles to fill once thrown, so I feel like it's a more combat ready and diverse team than a standard issue gimmick team.

Like I said it's a gimmick group at heart, won't argue against that or even that it objectively should be higher, but if it really was quite as simple as "these guys all do the same thing" you would have got what it was trying to do without me explaining it!
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Also I admit I probably should have just went with one of the two halves of that gimmick but I hadn't made any large teams at that point so I felt like I wanted to make one. Also I think the Colossus side of the gimmick works better but the Gambit side is how I shoehorn my Friendly Floyd cred in so you know.
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I thought that might have a chance of happening but I also didn't want to explain my teams too much and just let you interpret them unless there was some very important detail I needed to include.

The gimmick is it's a bunch of heroes for Colossus to throw. And when that fails, it's up for Gambit to throw random objects he found thanks to the luckhax of Domino or Friendly Floyd randomly showing up and selling him some worthless item that he can throw.

Was hoping the name (it's just a baseball reference) + the innovators of the vaunted Fastball Special being the first two entries would be enough hinting but then I guess the last 4 don't obviously fit that criteria.

Basically it's a gimmick team but more subtle than "these guys all do the same thing"
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Yeah Virion's probably got some of the best supports in the series for actually adding depth to the character. In some ways it upsets me that so much of it is isolated to support conversations-- he really is the type of character where you could justify putting some of that stuff in the main plot without compromising anything if they would ever give screentime to more than 20% of the cast.

Also Kent x Fiora best Kent pairing (and best Fiora pairing) imo.
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Even though it's not the worst team Starcrossed is probably the comic series I'd be least interested in reading so far. It's not something I think comics do well for the most part and 4/10 of the members are doing things you've already seen in X-Men so it's already going to feel like the worst of X-Men as a starting point (well to be fair Gambit/Rogue isn't the worst of X-Men-- Jean/Cyclops might be though).

At least with the earlier bad teams you're seeing a potentially enjoyable implosion, or a dumb gimmick that has never really been tried (with good reason).
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Got 13+ mainline (all but 11 and 15. 14 is weird to really count as beaten but I have seen the expansionless game's 'final boss' + credits)

Also I think the majority of the Spinoffs though I would need a list to be sure. Luckily the cutoff is 13+ so...
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I would argue most guys are being given sub SES tier material to work with nowadays. Like I called it repetitive, and it was, but it was a good unique promo and gimmick the first time. Which is more than you can say for most guys right now who are just being given some combination of no promo time, phony stuff to promote something, or are just hideous.

Though I'd take Orton's current character's promos over the SES for sure at minimum (as well as Joe's)
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