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Jesse_Custer posted...

While I would have liked to see Iron Man 3 go farther, Im actually pleasantly surprised there were others who ranked it even higher than myself. I had always thought I was the only one who really liked the movie!

I'd just like to point out that it was hilarious, assembling the rankings, and seeing comments like "I'm sure I'll be the highest for this movie", and then you end up fifth or something.

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Newt is great. And as someone who is easily annoyed by most child characters in films, IM3 kid was fine. He was far worse in Jurassic World.

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Not live, but yes.

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Mega Mana posted...

I'm very pleased to see so many high marks! Iron Man 3 used to be in my top ten, but more movies came out, lol

It used to be in Tangy's top ten too! Then Ultron came out.

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Shaduln posted...

Oh I forgot to do this. =(

I was gonna ping you, but I had so many write-ups to go through as it is >_>

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Sheep007 posted...

Iron Man 3 is weird. I like the heavy focus on Tony and his character direction but the villains are just bad and there's a lot of better films in the MCU which I also enjoy more.

Gotta be Ant Man next? It's looking increasingly like my bottom half bar one is gonna be the bottom half of the overall ranking which is pretty unsurprising, given I think I only have two or three MCU hot takes

It's hard for me to say "the villains suck!" when the only really GOOD villain from the first two phases is Loki (though I'll give credit to HYDRA in Winter Soldier as well). Plus, Mandarin's reveal amuses me. Sure, it might not stand up to most of Phase 3 (Which is a class in and of itself, given that it has nearly the same number of films as phases 1 & 2 combined, yet has only lost two thus far), but it's still quality in context.

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OUTLIERS:

Eddv - 69
Johnbobb - 47
PrinceKaro - 44
BetrayedTangy - 39
VengefulKaelee - 36
Lopen - 35
Mr Crispy - 35
ScepterOfLove - 35
Snake5555555555 - 32
GavsEvans123 - 31
Paratroopa1 - 31
Illuminatusbubu - 30
Jesse Custer - 29
Whiskey Nick - 28
Inviso - 27
Raka Putra - 27
TomNook - 27
Cybat - 26
Maniac64 - 26
XIII Rocks - 26
Corrik7 - 25
MetalmindStats - 23
HanOfTheNekos - 22
StifledSilence - 22
CoolCly - 21
Red13n - 21
NBIceman - 20
Anagram - 19
Sheep007 - 18
Mega Mana - 17
MetalDK - 15
ZenOfThunder 6

More of the same this time. Zens lead extends to nearly ten points, Eddv still tops the leaderboard, and there arent any big jumps or anything like that in sight.

Spoiler for Number 14: Half the films left kicked off a franchise, so its time for one of those seven "origin" stories to say goodbye.

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Red13n
If theres one thing you can add to make me hate a movie, its a child sidekick. And this movie just happens to have a child sidekick. There is no good reason to make Tony Stark, the dude that built the whole damn MCU in a cave, to have to rely on a child sidekick. This is a dude that is just starting to have issues with thinking the world is on the verge of potential cataclysmic alien invasion staking his fate with a 9 year old or however old he was. The whole premise just drives me crazy and absolutely hinders my enjoyment of everything else in this movie.

PrinceKaro
In the very iron-rich early days of the MCU we have this third movie where Tony finally confronts his classic comic nemesis, The Mandarin, that ancient chinese wizard with the ten magic rings and shit.
Oh hey, except it isn't that guy, this 'Mandarin' is a bad Osama Bin Laden cosplayer who makes vague threats in stereotypical terrorist videos. Before you say holy fuck how could they get an iconic character so wrong, it gets EVEN WORSE He is actually a drunken Irish stage actor! He is really just the puppet of... wait for it... an evil military industrial complex dude! Fuck off.
They supposedly didnt use the real Mandarin because he is culturally insensitive or whatever. Remember this is the same movie that has the laughably racist scene in the pakistani burka slave sweatshop.
The story weaves its way though ridiculous and convoluted shit with the writers determined to make their superhero characters as unsuper as possible. Tony does almost nothing as Iron Man in this movie. There always is some arbitrary reason he can't use the suit and it starts to get very silly. He is assisted by Rodney (who ALSO doesn't have his suit) and this annoying kid who just might be the worst character in the whole MCU holy fuck someone please drop him down a well and don't tell Lassie.
Half the time it almost feels like a rejected bond movie script they decided to stick iron man in. It honestly works better at that than a marvel one.
The story ends with the silly scene of him blowing up all his suits to focus on the more important things in his life like Pepper (well until next movie when he envisions an army of super-intelligent world-policing murderbots and nearly destroys the planet).
If there were any film that deserves to be excised from the MCU, it is this one. Literally nothing of value or continuity would be lost.

Maniac64
Probably going to be an unpopular opinion but I just did not get a lot of enjoyment out of this movie.
Turning the villain into an incredibly lame version of Fin Fang Foom was awful, as was pretty much everything to do with Extremis. I actually was fine with the Mandarin twist, legitimately caught me by surprise. Though I was also very glad when they revealed later that Mandarin did still exist.
The big scene with all the iron man suits was pretty cool but is one of those things that is much worse if you really think about it/on rewatch. Also the fact that Tony doesnt have any defenses on his house was absurd. And I found the long section of stuff with the little kid to be overall pointless. I just didnt like this movie.

BetrayedTangy
I hate this movie so much. I could literally rant about every aspect of it, but Im not. Im just going to focus on how garbage of a villain Aldrich Killian is. His motivation is stupid, the reveal of him being a villain is painfully obvious and they tried sooo freaking hard to make him look cool. Like if I wanted to see tatted up Guy Pearce Id go watch Memento. He wouldve been genuinely interesting if they just kept him a nerd and had him work behind the scenes the whole time carefully scheming and planning Tonys demise, but noooo he just had to flirt with Gwenyth Paltrow and walk around shirtless ugh. Screw this movie.

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Mr Crispy
I like the "I am Iron Man" part at the end calling back to the end of the first film and suggesting that Tony was ready to take another step forward again instead of neurotically inventing things out of fear and a sense of insecurity. Too bad that's undermined by later films. Not much remarkable about it other than the weirdness of trying to use a racist villian without seeming too racist about it with the fake out (and then deciding to backpedal on it anyway later). Extremis is near the bottom of the villain barrel, but they put up a decent enough fight-it's just that they're not very memorable because they're just a bunch of military doofuses wearing black (but at least they aren't elves).

Corrik7
I mean, on the surface this movie is okay. However, the fake villain story AGAIN is another groan inducing option as time goes on. It took me awhile to realize why that sucked, as it seemed okay in the moment and funny. The villain is again another disgruntled jealous person of Tony. Again, RDJ carries the movie, but it is starting to get less exciting. Paltrow does decent, but Extremis itself seems kinda questionable. They don't seem to do too much with it in regards to Paltrow either. The multitudes of suits was cool. But, at this point, how overpowered is Tony anyways? Again... couldn't anyone fly a suit with all this technology and have an army of suits? Does Tony Stark specifically have to be the one doing this, besides he is rich?

Sheep007
This is my third watch of this film. The first time, I thought it was boring as hell and remembered it like that for years. The second, I thought it was an underrated film, and after the third time, Im not sure what I think other than its kinda meh. I still love Tony and this film keeps the focus on his character and continues his arc. One of my thoughts with the Iron Man movies, but particularly this one, is that it feels like almost every single character exists to challenge or develop Tony in some way not hard given hes an arrogant arse and everyone not doing exactly what he wants challenges him. I want to like Pepper, before I remember that shes basically just a walking plot device who doesnt really change through the entire MCU. I straight up dont like the kid, whose name I forget, and Im not sure if thats an unpopular opinion. I just dont find the scene funny or cute or anything. Also, while I dont think Iron Man 3 is particularly boring, the plot outside of Tonys development isnt as engaging as the other two (theres way too many villains and I dont really care about their backstories), and thats saying something considering how I dont enjoy Iron Man 2 that much. On the other hand, the dialogue is much better than before, and noticeably so to the point that its kept from being anything worse than okay.

Anagram
Its kind of telling how this is only the second worst Iron Man movie.

Cybat
For the most part, I imagine most peoples opinions on this movie will hinge on how they felt about The Twist. For me, I wasnt a big fan. Not that Im super attached to the original comic book interpretation of the character, but even just within the context of this movie, the narrative momentum completely died in Trevor Slatterys bedroom, and the rest of the plot kind of felt perfunctory. I cant be too mad about it though, because we are finally getting the real Mandarin in the Shang Chi movie this summer (maybe). And because Ben Kingsleys performance is still fantastic.
But that wasnt the only problem this movie had. The structure of the movie kind of felt off the whole time, with Tony spending so much time with a random boy and Rhodey and Pepper not really having anything to do until the end. And it being a Christmas movie despite coming out in May.

Johnbobb
This was a movie

Lopen
This movie isn't quite as bad as people will say. Like if you read the plot synopsis you see an actor playing Mandarin in a Shyamalan twist and Pepper in an Iron Man suit and you groan, but eh. It's actually fine for one watch.

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GavsEvans123
This film has a more personal and intimate story than whats come before, as although there is an external villain, the real meat is Tony coping with his PTSD from going to space at the end of The Avengers. Here we see him at his lowest and most vulnerable, which is a stark (ha!) contrast to how he usually is, and on another level, its also quite different for the MCU, which tends to keep things light-hearted.

Mandarin here is a big change to how he is in the comics, but I think it works because hes so over the top when hes out of character. Its the sort of thing you couldnt have possibly seen it coming, and the unexpected nature of it makes it even funnier. I also like how, for about five years or so afterwards, every new film had someone theorising, jokingly or not, that [[character x]] wasnt really [[thing y]], but an actor pretending to be [[thing y]]. When you think about it, this is true about everyone in every film, from a certain point of view.

While the darker tone works for the character development, Im not sure if it was as successful elsewhere. While this film does want to be something more than the previous popcorn entertainment, and that is to be applauded, I think maybe having the villains be fantasy suicide bombers was a bit too much. The first Iron Man film also had terrorists as the antagonists, but there was a lightness of touch there that helped detach it from reality just enough to avoid being disturbing, yet still pose a threat.

Though it doesnt beat the original, Iron Man 3 does at least improve on Iron Man 2, since it tells its own story, as opposed to setting up the rest of the Avengers. Its still only the second-best film directed by Shane Black and starring Robert Downey Jr. though.

HanOfTheNekos
The format of the movie, being told as a story from Tony's point of view, is pretty solid, although a little weird because we haven't seen something like it before. The movies are all told from a 3rd person omniscient point of view, but this one is a 1st person omniscient... which makes it a little weird when scenes without Tony happen. But I digress. This leads to two amazing moments... one is ending the movie with the same line that the first one ends with "I am Iron Man", but with so much more meaning and completion to it. Tony's arc throughout the entire 4 movies ends really solidly here - he has his place in the world, he understands who he is, what his self and Pepper mean to him. His conclusion is really good. So of course they ruin it in Age of Ultron.

His relations with characters are great too. Well-done with connecting with Pepper, great highlighting his friendship with Rhodes, and his love for Happy is just heartwrenching.

Killian was okay. Him yelling Im the Mandarin! was unnecessary. I dont dislike them messing with the character of the Mandarin as much as other people.

Pepper totally killed a guy.

MetalmindStats
By the time Iron Man 3 came out, Tony Stark had become a thoroughly explored character, and Shane Blacks twist of partnering him with a kid in a sort of buddy-cop deal was hardly reinvigorating. I nonetheless remember Iron Man 3 more fondly than it probably deserves, perhaps because it just needed to not utterly botch Starks characterization to preserve his appeal.

Illuminatusbubu
An ok movie with a forgettable villain and a pre-teen sidekick that doesnt really need to be there unless it is to lure in more younger viewer. I dont really understand why it was as successful as it did here.

StifledSilence
This ended up being my favorite of the Tony trilogy because of RDJs emotional range shown here. Actually seeing a superhero suffer emotionally from his experiences is both jarring and beautiful. It gives a depth to Iron Man not afforded to some of the other characters. Oh and it also still has cool robot suit fights and explosions and shit so A+.

ZenOfThunder
This movie is fine. It's not great but it gets way too much hate. Hard to follow up Avengers 1. I watched this again last year to see if I liked it less and I didn't, but I was never crazy about it to begin with. No idea why people dump on it so hard.

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CoolCly
This movie gets a lot of hate, and I think I know why, but I dont think its fully justified.
#1) The Mandarin Twist. A lot of people dont like this, because it ruins the Mandarin villain. Well. I dont care about that. The twist was awesome. The propaganda videos were awesome, Trevor is awesome, the whole thing with the Mandarin is awesome.
#2) The kid. Adding a kid to the movie is often cringe and bad. But. This kid was great! His chemistry with RDJ is awesome, and he doesnt outstay his welcome at all. The ending scene of opening the shed for the suit to fly off is a little cringe but they didnt push it too hard so its all good.
#3) Killian and his gang. Well, okay this is a weak part of the movie. Making his motivation being based on Tony standing him up on Y2K is kinda funny but eh. The way hes so cool and good looking now feels strange, especially with his focus on Pepper. The whole thing just feels weird, and he definitely doesnt like strong enough of a villain to be behind the Mandarin, as awesome as that part of the movie is. When his gang of dudes turn out at the climax, they feel a bit too video gamey, though the Iron Legion is pretty cool.
I didnt like how Maya was just killed off at all. Rhodie is good here in a buddy cop sort of way, but I dont think it was that noteworthy.
Overall, this movie feels like an echo of one of my favourite movies, Kiss Kiss Bang Bang. Both that and IM3 were directed by Shane Black and starred RDJ. In fact, that movie is what gave Marvel enough confidence to listen to Jon Favreau and cast RDJ as Tony Stark to begin with. So, as a result I love this movie.
Overall, this is a good movie. If Killian and his gang had been better, this would have been a great movie.

Eddv
Average, but fuck off RDJ

MetalDK
The twist was ok imo, and I thought the main arc for Tony was handled well. But nothing special

NBIceman
I gather folks opinions on this movie generally boil down to whether or not they like how the Mandarin was handled. Well, I do. Ben Kingsley clearly had a blast with it and it was legitimately funny. The Mandarin sucks anyway, people. Even beyond that, though, theres just so much enjoyable stuff here. Ive seen complaints here and there that Iron Man 3 is more of a Tony Stark movie than an Iron Man movie. As though thats somehow a bad thing. I love watching him take down bad guys with just quick improv thinking. I love watching him trying to cope with the fallout from Avengers. I love his interactions with the kid and Pepper. I love all the creativity in the action scenes. Even Killian was pretty good and interesting as the villain. Theres really not a whole lot that this movie misses the mark on at all. The only real important thing that happens as far as the whole franchise goes is Tony using Extremis to get the shrapnel out of his body, but who cares? Its a great ride from start to finish.

Raka Putra
Ah yes, the one where Tony Stark destroyed most Iron Man suits. Glad that one kept. Anyhow, I actually thought, at that time, it was a nice conclusion to Stark's character arc. It still kinda is. I'm not familiar with the comics so I dunno what the heck was the deal with The Mandarin but I remember it being a kinda big deal at the time.

Whiskey Nick
(No write-up.)

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TomNook
The sequel that Iron Man deserved. Tony Stark is always charismatic, and the plot here is fun. I love the multi suit scenes.

Inviso
Its interesting just how many of Iron Mans villains seem to be the result of self-inflicted revenge as a result of Tonys actions. But yeah, as far as the Iron Man trilogy goes, I feel like Iron Man 3 did a great job of wrapping up Tonys story, even though obviously he still has a solid sixteen movies left before the end of phase 3. Its hard to talk about Iron Man 3 out of context, but its an interesting movie in terms of Tonys development over the course of the franchise. Right from the start, we see him in the past as a complete womanizer, but we cut almost immediately to his relationship with Pepper, and the struggles of dealing with PTSD in the wake of the Avengers alien invasion. Really, once Tony gets the suit, his vulnerability comes largely from human issues (palladium poisoning and now PTSD), and I think those human issues are handled well here by taking away the suit entirely, for a good chunk of the movie. It just makes his eventual triumph feel that much more earned, and I thought it made for a really solid story.

XIII Rocks
So I absolutely love the Mandarin twist and because of that the movie goes a long way with me. The reason for that is simple and I guess a bit more personal. Basically I went in expecting Ben Kingsley, who I like a lot, to deliver an all-time great villain performance. I was so ready for classic menacing British villain stuff. But what I got instead, in the first act/two acts of the movie, was a fairly generic performance that left me slightly disappointed. Then the twist happened and it turned out that THAT WAS THE POINT. I was completely on board with the movie as a result because they *got* me. I thought the handling of Tony's PTSD was a little heavy-handed at times (though the "piping hot mess" scene is heartfelt and one of RDJ's best in the franchise), but the way it stripped him down and separated him from all his tricks, forcing him to rely on his other skills, was a good call. A more light-hearted - and slightly worse - The Dark Knight Rises in that regard. It also makes the best use yet of his quips and has what I would call the good kind of cheesiness. Nice job getting Shane Black to direct it, I think he is better than Favreau on the whole and elevates this. I like Kiss Kiss Bang Bang a lot. I should rewatch it.

Mega Mana
First Scene That Comes to Mind: The kid getting him to switch his focus from things out of his control to things he can do

Iron Man 3 is a lot of things. It's a film about coping with trauma. It's a look at a man who thinks he can do or buy anything to make the world better, but suddenly aliens and gods and his father's idol suddenly exist and make him feel like an utter blip. His entire world is rocked even more than the time he got blasted with his own weapons and is always almost dying if not for the electromagnet in his chest. He's a man on the edge who reacts horribly when thinking about that day's events and spends all his free time building new prototype suits just to be able to save the world if needed. That's what I take from it when I remember it. It's first and foremost about the man inside of the suit dealing with a huge paradigm shift.

I also loved the The Mandarin twist. I thought it was utterly brilliant and laughed out loud at the balls Shane Black had to do that. I loved Sir Ben Kingsley. I loved that it was a huge PR campaign using fear and the other to mask a company's explosively destructive mad science. I loved how no-nonsense the repercussions of Tony's hubris were when his home was attacked immediately after antagonizing the villain. I thoroughly enjoyed the aspect of mystery about what was happening to the soldiers and why it was happening, feeling a bit like a James Bond adventure for quite some time. There was so much to delve and dig into.

I also loved how well the humor was used throughout, and also how Harley managed to slip Tony's brain gear back into place by just reminding him of the basics. I feel like Endgame kind of does that again, with Ant-Man's return poking just the right button on Tony's brain for him to refocus and build forward. I didn't like how Age of Ultron undoes all of what Tony does in Iron Man 3 (getting rid of the suits, promising not to rabbit hole), but in retrospect, Iron Man 3 was just a band-aid for Tony to keep functioning through the likes of Age of Ultron and Civil War, but only time and family and living in failure allowed him to reset.

Aldritch Killian is the weak link with weak backstory and dull villainy, but I really liked his goon squad and, again, I thought everything with the Mandarin propaganda was brilliant. Even better that he's not the actual Mandarin and is also just usurping that title for himself because he's that kind of ass.

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ScepterOfLove
(No write-up.)

Snake5555555555
A terrific character action film that is the absolute crux of Tony Starks character. The film deftly analyzes how the suit makes the man and vice-versa, all wrapped with tons of little bows that show off Starks genius, frailty, snark, and above all, humanity, all of which make Stark the compelling hero he is to watch. This is Downeys highest point in the MCU, but Iron Man 3 also has one of the most hilarious villain adaptations ever in the Mandarin, which can not be discredited. And sure, maybe Killian is not exactly the right villain this film needed, but what IM3 does with its mainstay hero, important themes and thrilling action is something Im more than willing to celebrate.

Paratroopa1
I'll never understand for the life of me why people don't consider Iron Man 3 one of the classic MCU movies. I wasn't expecting to like this one as much as I did, given that I was sort of lukewarm about the first two Iron Mans and I expected them to be tired by now, but this one really resonated with me for some reason. I think, as someone who's had a few anxiety attacks in their life, the idea of Tony Stark having them as a result of PTSD felt really real, a really unusually human thing to deal with for a superhero, and it made Tony feel relatable in a way he never had before - even when he was dying in Iron Man 2 it felt kind of silly and contrived, but the idea that someone having to battle space aliens would actually be seriously fucked up by the experience was a really interesting choice. I love how this movie, even more than the first two, is really a movie about Tony Stark and not about Iron Man - some of the most clever, exciting, and emotional stuff comes when Tony Stark doesn't have the suit. This is a much darker movie than the first two Iron Mans, but that serves to make the stakes feel a lot higher, and the final confrontation more deserved. The way they use the multiple Iron Man suits at the end is great, and Pepper Potts getting the killing blow fills me with glee. And I dunno, I kinda love that Mandarin ended up being some dumbass actor? That's hilarious. I guess people were mad about that because he's a real villain in the comics, but I dunno the comics, so I have no expectations and couldn't have cared less about this so it worked for me. I dunno, I think everything about this movie's great and I wish I could have ranked it higher.

VengefulKaelee
Far and away the best of the Iron Man trilogy. This is basically the one time in the MCU I found Tony Stark truly compelling as a character. The ending is just more typical MCU big action scene nonsense, but even so, Shane Black's vision for Iron Man proves a hell of a lot more engaging and nuanced than Jon Favreau's ever was, injecting Stark with more humanity than he had before or since. And no, having not read any Marvel comics at any point I don't give a shit about the whole Mandarin controversy, I thought the twist was funny.

Jesse Custer
Im fairly confident I will be the person who ranks this movie the highest. Im well aware of its flaws, of which there are plenty, but I also feel its a misunderstood film, and it resonated with me in a way few movies of this genre have. In contrast to the typical action movie, we get a hero who is psychologically damaged, experiencing anxiety attacks and insomnia. This is actually very believable when you consider the effect it would have on ones mental state to go through so many near death experiences and have people trying to kill you over and over again. And I dont think Tony has ever seemed this sympathetic as a character, without his usual self-assured smugness. The movie breaks him down to nearly nothing so it can build him back up again, showing that he is more than just a guy in a super-powerful suit (this message especially comes across when he pulls a MacGyver with a bunch of stuff he buys from the store).

Probably the biggest criticism I see of this movie is with the twist involving The Mandarin. But Trevor Slattery added some much needed levity to the otherwise dark tone of the movie, and I personally didnt care if I got to see another generic mustache-twirling villain. Anyway, Im sure most people see it otherwise, but Iron Man 3 is a top 10 MCU movie for me.

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15. Iron Man 3
Total Score: 471

ScepterOfLove 5
Snake5555555555 5
Paratroopa1 - 7
VengefulKaelee - 8
Jesse Custer 9
TomNook - 9
Inviso 11
XIII Rocks - 11
Mega Mana 12
CoolCly - 13
Eddv - 13
MetalDK 13
NBIceman 13
Raka Putra - 13
Whiskey Nick 14
GavsEvans123 15
HanOfTheNekos 15
MetalmindStats 15
Illuminatusbubu - 16
StifledSilence - 16
ZenOfThunder 16
Mr Crispy - 17
Corrik7 18
Sheep007 - 18
Anagram 19
Cybat - 20
Johnbobb 21
Lopen 21
Red13n - 21
PrinceKaro 22
Maniac64 22
BetrayedTangy - 23

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THE MCU:

Iron Man (2008)
23rd. The Incredible Hulk (2008)
21st. Iron Man 2 (2010)
20th. Thor (2011)
16th. Captain America: The First Avenger (2011)
Marvel's The Avengers (2012)
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Iron Man 3 (2013)
22nd. Thor: The Dark World (2013)
Captain America: The Winter Soldier (2014)
Guardians of the Galaxy (2014)
18th. Avengers: Age of Ultron (2015)
Ant-Man (2015)
-----
Captain America: Civil War (2016)
Doctor Strange (2016)
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 (2017)
Spider-Man: Homecoming (2017)
Thor: Ragnarok (2017)
Black Panther (2018)
Avengers: Infinity War (2018)
17th. Ant-Man and the Wasp (2018)
19th. Captain Marvel (2019)
Avengers: Endgame (2019)
Spider-Man: Far From Home (2019)

THE SCORES:

114
183
183
197
233
256
258
297
306
312
313
335
392
424
471
497 (Captain America: The First Avenger)
513 (Ant-Man and the Wasp)
533 (Avengers: Age of Ultron)
533 (Captain Marvel)
569 (Thor)
593 (Iron Man 2)
653 (Thor: The Dark World)
669 (The Incredible Hulk)

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First and foremost: a warning. There WILL be spoilers for all 23 movies in the Marvel Cinematic Universe in this topic (along with perhaps other Marvel properties...I can't be sure.) Again, this is a spoiler warning for the ENTIRE Marvel Cinematic Universe. Just wanted to get that out of the way.

Also, that "PHASE TWO" in the topic title doesn't mean anything like me handling the ranking by phase or anything like that. Given the size of write-ups I've received and hopefully how much interest this project might generate, I'm just expecting to need at least two, if not more topics to finish the whole list. This is already topic two, and if you want to read topic one, the write-ups are here for as long as the topic avoids the purge: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/79272506

For the past ten months (give or take), COVID-19 has completely stalled a lot in our society, including Marvel's lengthy timeline for the premiere of their many, many superhero movies and television shows. Why, by this very date, we would be expected to have seen Black Widow, Eternals, and we'd be dealing with ads for Shang-Chi: Legend of the Ten Rings. However, those three movies did not come out in the past year. Before COVID hit, Marvel had conveniently wrapped up their first three phases (the Infinity Saga) in a neat little bow, leaving 23 movies as a part of their cinematic universe. And for the past several months, we--the Gauntlet Crew, and for the first time in a long time, the rest of Board 8--have been rewatching the Infinity Saga from Iron Man all the way up to Spider-Man: Far From Home, with the intent of ranking said movies and determining Board 8's favorite Marvel movie of them all!

Overall, we had a great deal of interest and a grand total of thirty-two participants submitted lists, ranking all twenty-three movies, complete with write-ups from almost everyone. The results have been tallied, and after a whole lot of work from all involved, we have our list set in stone.

Your Rankers:

Anagram
BetrayedTangy
CoolCly
Corrik7
Cybat
Eddv
GavsEvans123
HanOfTheNekos
Illuminatusbubu
Inviso
Jesse Custer
Johnbobb
Lopen
Maniac64
Mega Mana
Metal DK
MetalmindStats
Mr Crispy
NBIceman
Paratroopa1
PrinceKaro
Raka Putra
Red13n
ScepterOfLove
Sheep007
Snake5555555555
StifledSilence
TomNook
VengefulKaelee
Whiskey Nick
XIII Rocks
ZenOfThunder

There's a second post coming, so don't post yet!

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That looks like a poster for the JJbrams Star Trek movies >_>

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Gotta fill up some space...

10. Ant-Man and the Wasp
11. ???
12. ???
13. ???
14. ???
15. Captain America: The First Avenger
16. ???
17. Thor: The Dark World
18. Iron Man 2
19. Thor
20. ???
21. Captain Marvel
22. Avengers: Age of Ultron
23. The Incredible Hulk

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Paratroopa1 posted...

I'm honestly a little surprised that so many people have Cap 1 highish! Maybe it's because I personally have no personal attachment to the Steve Rogers character and his portrayal - I mean, I do like what this movie did with him a lot, but that goes for most of the characters in the MCU. Some of the period stuff is cute. The third act of this movie is the worst of any of the movies imo though, including Thor 2.

Cap 1 is right in that portion of the list (for me, at least) where the movies start to actually get good, but it's still a bit slow and forgettable. Not enough to be bad like the films I've ranked lower...but enough.

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Might need to get this to 500 before I do tomorrow's update, because there won't be enough space for around ten write-up posts and post-ranking discussion...

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Nanis23 posted...

Hi Inviso,
Just curious, how do you feel about fan service in say...Danganronpa?
(I know this isn't really the same but I just want to know)

I have no problem with it. Heck, I enjoy looking at Miranda's ass as much as anyone. But if content creators choose to alter their own creations because they feel it ultimately doesn't suit their intent, that's not censorship and shouldn't be whined about (or even a news story in general).

Basically, my point is that the argument of "SJWs ruin everything" assumes that it wasn't the original intent to have a serious scene WITHOUT an unnecessary ass shot. It's equally possible that the creators felt compelled to insert unnecessary fanservice into the game to appease a group of people who aren't the sole market for video games anymore.

That being said, if Spike Chunsoft re-released DRs 1-3 and removed the fanservice scenes entirely (all of which are completely optional, and in some cases complete easter eggs by the way), it wouldn't really bother me since it would be the choice of the creators to remove them as part of their artistic vision.

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You could also look at it the other way. "We used to have to insert pointless, nonsense fan service (like close-up butt shots of a character in the midst of a discussion of her personal life) because our core audience was made up of losers. But now the market is more diversified, so we don't have to compromise the integrity of our product just to cater entirely to their creepy needs anymore."

ETA: Also, I should point out that I'm not referring to ALL gamers in the above example. Just the kinds of highly vocal whiners that would complain about something as trivial as a butt shot being removed from a remake of a game.

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OUTLIERS:

Eddv - 67
Johnbobb - 41
PrinceKaro - 37
Mr Crispy - 33
BetrayedTangy - 31
GavsEvans123 - 31
Illuminatusbubu - 29
Lopen - 29
VengefulKaelee - 29
Whiskey Nick - 27
Raka Putra - 25
ScepterOfLove - 25
Inviso - 23
Jesse Custer - 23
MetalmindStats - 23
Paratroopa1 - 23
Corrik7 - 22
HanOfTheNekos - 22
Snake5555555555 - 22
XIII Rocks - 22
Cybat - 21
StifledSilence - 21
TomNook - 21
CoolCly - 19
Maniac64 - 19
NBIceman - 18
Anagram - 15
Red13n - 15
Sheep007 - 15
Mega Mana - 14
MetalDK - 13
ZenOfThunder 5

No real change after this one. Eddv maintains a commanding lead at the top, followed by Johnbobb and Karo, while Zen remains in the lead at the bottom, despite having more than doubled his score.

Spoiler for Number 15: The most top ten appearances yet, and the first movie to get TWO top five rankings. (Would be the first to get ANY top five rankings, but, you knowEddv >_>).

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Paratroopa1
I don't have a lot to say about this one. It's a serviceable origin story. I thought Captain America would be a really lame superhero, just because I thought the whole patriotism schtick wouldn't work for me, but they manage to make Captain America one of the most likeable characters in the MCU even for an America-hater like me. I don't really like war films so this one isn't really my vibe, though the best part of the movie is when Captain America becomes like the mascot for the military and doing like song and dance numbers to sell war bonds. Red Skull is an absurdly boring villain and I don't really remember much about this movie, but it's really carried by its protagonist.

Corrik7
This movie simply put is very boring. It is cool to see his origin, and how he operated in World War 2. The backstory and outline of his character is of course very essential and very important later on. However, it just is a really boring movie. Even the end fight just ends with the villain randomly teleporting. Not even really being defeated. I guess it is alright, but it's hard to get through without feeling tired.

Cybat
This is such a paint-by-numbers period piece superhero movie that Wonder Woman copied the structure of it almost exactly (barring the differences in their origins). Right down to a soldier named Steve performing a heroic sacrifice in a plane at the end. Hugo Weaving was a good choice for the Red Skull, but there wasnt that much for him - or almost anyone - to do. The musical number in the middle was funny though. And Hayley Atwell made a good enough impression to get her own show and, eventually, earn her right to be in the final scene of the highest-earning movie of all time.

ScepterOfLove
(No write-up.)

MetalmindStats
Can someone tell me why so many MCU fans seem to hold a torch for such a thoroughly dull film (besides the obvious differences in opinion)? There cant be that many people crushing on Peggy Carter, an appealing but distinctly underwritten character whos nonetheless the best thing her movie has going for it.

VengefulKaelee
This movie has one brilliant scene in it: the Alan Menken musical number where Captain America sells war bonds. Other than that one scene (which is just as good out of context anyway), I honestly find this one quite dull. It's not a bad movie per se only one of these movies is truly bad but it really doesn't do much for me at all. Steve Rogers works better as a man out of his own time, and stuff like the Peggy Carter romance and Red Skull as a villain in general just comes off as fairly trite.

Illuminatusbubu
I hate Captain America. His character is annoying. The story is somehow clich, cheesy, and simplistic at the same time. If it was for my boyfriend kept dragging to watch more MCU movies this would be the end of MCU journey for me.

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TomNook
This is a good movie. I like the Captain as a character, but I don't think his storylines are always amazing. He's one of the only that I actually prefer in overlapping Avenger films, as opposed to his own movies.

HanOfTheNekos
This movie is just so standard. Out of all the MCU movies, it is the most typical and kind of boring. I like the Red Skull. I think hes a great villain. One of the best. Hugo Weaving is good like that.

Most of what happens in the movie is solid, its just not spectacular. And the movie just seems to go on for too long. Things get drawn out too much. Its a lot of story to tell for just clearing up the whole backstory business. But alas, so it be.

Sheep007
This is a perfectly acceptable movie. Steve is already just a wonderful human being, then he becomes an uber chad and saves some men from Nazis and theres some fights and stuff. Cool. This is a film that I watched. It doesnt feel badly done, and I like Steve, Peggy and Bucky. But theres not anything in this movie that makes me feel much of anything, and it ends up just being very bland. I was never really bored or annoyed, and I enjoy the sequence of Steve as a mascot as well as the segue into the original Avengers, but other than that I cant think of much I would praise about this film. I dont think its bad, but Steve is just not an interesting enough character to carry this movie, especially so early in the MCU.

Jesse Custer
I confess Ive never been a fan of Captain Americas origin. Hes supposed to be this relatable kid from Brooklyn who anyone that ever got bullied can relate to. And hes supposed to show that anyone can become a hero. All it takes is some magical steroids. And theres the problem. At least Peter Parker still looks like a normal kid after he gets bitten by a radioactive spider, but the transformation of Steve Rogers takes him completely outside the realm of relatability. Of course, this movie tries its best to convince us hes still the same kid from Brooklyn, with the same heart. But its awfully tough to see him as anything other than a super soldier cooked up as a science experiment. And Id rather watch a movie like The Winter Soldier that goes all in on making him a badass who does stuff normal people never could than a movie like The First Avenger that keeps trying to tell us theres a bit of Steve Rogers in all of us.

That being said, I cant really fault this movie for telling the story they had to tell with the first Captain America movie. And The First Avenger does a decent enough job of building the foundation for the character before they actually made him interesting.

XIII Rocks
I was a bit surprised at how low I ended up placing this. Maybe I just didn't love the period setting, or because it's the most "American" of all the MCU movies so it lacks a little bit of the universal appeal the other movies have. Hayley Atwell does nail it, though. And there's something really cool about this and Thor having these...hints at connectivity before the MCU became more obviously connected post-Avengers. Like I was so excited when that guy turned out to be Tony Stark's dad, and the mention of Odin early on.

Johnbobb
I will never get over Chris Evans goofy lookin fuckin bobblehead in the first third of the movie. Also, Captain America has never really stood out to me as a hero on his own, and you really see that in his series to come. Captain America works for the way he serves as a leader and plays off of others, but as a hero required to sell the movie from start to finish... meh?

Lopen
Something about this movie doesn't feel 1940s enough. It checks all the boxes and really tries to be, and I'm not really sure what it is but it rubs me the wrong way. It's like you fired up your Super Year Fighter Turbo video game, grabbed the 2011 character and you picked the 1940s alternate costume to try and beat final boss 2020-- it looks right at a glance but it's just off somehow. Aside from that Hugo Weaving is thoroughly wasted as Red Skull here. I dunno. It's fine and something I'd recommend anyone interested in going hard on the MCU see, but a bit boring for me and is quite skippable. We all know Captain America's origin story anyway, just watch Winter Soldier instead.

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Anagram
To me, this is the definitive had to be there movie. They had to make this movie so Captain America could show up in later movies, and it had to be during WWII unless they wanted to squeeze the WWII stuff into another movie they made the right call by not doing that, but this movie is just so much nothing.

StifledSilence
This is a very solid start to Caps story. I loved all the WW2 era throwbacks and aesthetics. I enjoyed the action as a whole. ButI dunno. It felt like it was missing a little something. Was it more Bucky I needed? Or was it less creepy looking skinny boy Chris Evans CGI I needed? Im not entirely sure. But still, great movie overall.

ZenOfThunder
Sometimes I will hum "Star Spangled Man with a plan" to myself. I love Captain America as a character. This one is not perfect but I always get amped watching it.

PrinceKaro
When a scrawny soldier is given some experimental steroids, he is transformed into Captain America, the living embodiment of the old-timey values that only exist in the minds of republicans.
The film takes place during World War 2, so Cap heads off to kick some Nazi ass because by jiminy, this is America and we'll never let fascists take over our... um wait...
...ah fuck.
Some elements of the film (particularly hydra scenes) feel campy in the manner of the comics of the 1940s and this is actually part of the movie's charm, but as the story goes on things gets tiresome, largely due to Steve being such a super boy scout. While in later movies he has the naive fish out of water thing with him, here he is just too perfect and flawless and he is very hard to relate to once he eats his wheaties and stops being the plucky underdog.
It is a decent origin story, but not really much else, and pretty much everything the film does Wonder Woman does better. A lot better.

Raka Putra
Probably one of the better origin stories. The movie blended war movie with superhero movie quite well, methinks. Also I like the character of Steve Rogers although he's just an overgrown boy scout.

Inviso
For a long time, I was nervous about actually seeing this film because I wasnt sure Id be able to enjoy the time jump, but it wound up being really good. I think the film did a great job of justifying Steves character progression by establishing him as the son of a military man who just wanted to serve his country against evil, largely because he had experience fighting off bullies due to his small size. Of the phase one heroes were introduced to, I feel like hes the first real paragon we get, and yet the movie doesnt make him boring as a straight-up good guy. His boy scout nature is almost played for laughs in just how morally righteous he is, and it makes his heroism all the greater. Also, in a lot of these movies, it feels like in order to develop the hero, you also have to spend time developing the villain, which means cutting corners with the heros development. But I feel like Red Skull gets just the right amount of characterization so as not to detract from Captain Americas journey. Even the Bucky and Carter stuff, while a BIT underutilized time-wise, was still given just enough to work with as a solid start to establishing Captain America as a franchise-leader.

Red13n
I kind of want to like this movie more than I do, but for a lot of the time this movie kind of drags. A lot of MCU movies will buck the trend later on by not boring us with an origin story, but we weren't there at this point. We're stuck with wimpy Steve Rogers for too long, then sidelined Cap for what feels like just as long. There are some good bits here and there, plenty of setup for things in the MCU that will come back, but this is a movie that wont leave you feeling like it isn't just another origin story.

Maniac64
Another movie I feel like I enjoy more than many people do. The start is stlow but I think it does a good job of setting up the kind of person Captain America is. I really enjoyed the pole thing where he uses his brain while everyone else just thinks physical. Did the Propaganda war bonds stuff go to long? Yes. Did Red Skull need more time and development? Yes. Do I wish they would eventually tell us where the tesseract weapons were sending everyone? Yes. But its still an entertaining super hero movie. I did enjoy seeing Howard Stark in his prime and they did a good job with the doomed romance and Bucky. Dum Dum Duggan was a real disappointment though, I wish he were better.

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CoolCly
I think this is a VERY good movie.
The build up of who Steve Rogers was and why he IS Captain America was carried forward to the Avengers and onwards into every movie he was in from then on, and was a major pillar of the MCU being so consistent.
The early scenes of Steve being a scrawny kid full of determination, up through bootcamp, are great. Doctor Erskine is great, with his highlights being his intro scene finding Steve in that recruitment centre, and drink he has with Steve the night before the procedure. The car chase scene after the procedure is fun, and I like the montage once Captain America and the Howling Commandos are in full swing. Ive seen people *complain* about this because they dont actually get to see those scenes in detail but like. Thats not really an option. The montage is awesome.
Howard Stark was a wonderful addition to the movie he *really* brings that Tony Stark energy with a bit of old fashioned spin.
Peggy Carter is excellent. Shes refined, shes dangerous, shes beautiful, she doesnt take any shit, and she strikes a very memorable image. Out of all the love interests of the MCU, she is by far the most worthwhile. I just wish she had more to do in the movie! The only real definitive action she takes is helping Steve go on his hopeless rescue mission, which would probably seem like a generic doting love interest doing whatever the main character wants kind of move despite it being a bad idea, if not for the movie doing a good job of convincing us that Peggy is competent enough to be making these kinds of decisions, even if Tommy Lee Jones was on the fence about it. She feels like she could be the main character of her own story. And she is! Season 1 of the Agent Carter TV show is absolutely phenomenal. S2 not so much.. but oh well! If youve never checked it out, I highly recommend trying the Agent Carter one shot. It captures the essence of the show pretty well, even if its a bit cheesy.
The Red Skull was fun early on with a lot of his monologuing, but I feel like he dropped off towards the end when he went full mask off and revealed himself to be such a nazi. The fist fight at the end was pretty underwhelming like ohh, we built up this bad guy because hes a physical match for Captain America! The more interesting aspect was their personality differences, but I think that didnt matter as much by then. It was time to send him into space and end the movie. The set up with the plane was good though killed three birds with one stone by giving Cap a sacrificial moment, a final moment to end off the romance, and plausible way to get him frozen in ice to bring him forward in time. I really like the scene in New York, and the final line. I had a date.
Ultimately, I think this would be a GREAT movie if not for one thing all of the futuristic space weapons Hydra uses. I like the idea of Zola making highly advanced weapons for the time period. But these weapons are highly advanced weapons for US, not just in capability, but in look. I think they REALLY missed the mark here. I think that if the weapons had felt more like WWII era technology with juiced up capabilities, this could have been a real home run of a movie. As it is, the futuristic laser rifles shooting American Soldiers and making them just go poof took me out of a lot of the action scenes.
Overall, this was a really good movie, and I appreciate a lot of what it did for Captain America and the MCU. It was written by Markus and McFeely. Ive listened to them talk about the MCU on many podcasts and interviews and its just very clear how well they *get* Steve Rogers and how their mark shone through her and why they earned the right to write later movies like The Winter Soldier, Civil War, Infinity War, and Endgame and not to mention the aforementioned Agent Carter show.

Snake5555555555
Ive always liked this film even if my opinion on it has gone slightly down over the years. It has a really slow start, but Caps origin story is purposeful and everything to do with HYDRA is tons of funn; Red Skull and Zola are two of my favorite performances in the series. The Howling Commandos are definitely wasted and this film really does not have much in the way of iconic scenes besides the ending, but yet its just a solid little war/period piece. I dont have much else to say, its good but it has definitely been outmatched by future proceedings.

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NBIceman
Im gonna be curious to see how many folks besides me have this in their top ten. The reason I do is very simple: Steve Rogers is one of my favorite characters in all of fiction, and a large part of this movie is just pure Steve Rogers goodness. Writing for Captain America necessitates walking a pretty thin line, because hes meant to be a symbol, both in-universe and out, that represents the best of us as people. Thats why theres always so much insistence on his abilities being classified as peak human rather than superhuman. But that sort of thing can come off as preachy or goody-goody or just plain boring if not done well. The MCU does it well, and it starts with TFA. Its impossible not to connect to his earnestness in wanting to make a difference, especially with the great supporting cast thats around him (how good was Tucci as Erskine, seriously?) And through it all, his awkward but incredibly sweet romance with Peggy serves as a constant reminder of his humanity, which leads to the final scene of the movie - still a top 3 ending in the whole franchise. The movie falters a little in the middle where it leans a little too heavily on generic action explosions and so forth, but thats not enough to keep it from being the best solo origin story in the MCU.

BetrayedTangy
Despite being one of the most by the numbers MCU films its still one of my favorites to rewatch. Marvel doing a fantasy period piece is so good because they really have the budget to just go all out. Its such a unique feel compared to everything else and is really its main boon. Glad were currently seeing something similar with WandaVision! The other thing I love about this movie is the side characters, they all put in fantastic performances. Hell Peggy Carter is one of the few non costumed characters I actually care about.

Eddv
Hey there's a couple of period scenes in this one that don't totally suck.

GavsEvans123
This film feels like an old-timey pulp serial, which is pretty neat considering the time setting. To tie in with that, theres little in the way of moral ambiguity or complex characterisation here: good is pure and incorruptible, while evil has no redeeming qualities. Because of this, Cap provides another variety of heroism. He is the classical hero, an aspirational, inspirational force who will always stand up for whats right, even to a fault. In that sense, hes the Superman of the MCU, an icon of hope that others look up to.

Captain America may not threaten to be one of the best entries in the MCU, but it still provides a good time for those fancying a good old-fashioned Good vs Evil story. If nothing else, someone over at DC must have liked this film, considering the inspiration Wonder Woman took from it.

Fun fact: I had Red Skull yelling You are failing! as the text alert on my phone for a while. In retrospect, that probably wasnt good for my self-esteem.

MetalDK
Oddly underrated by some, overrated by others. I'm in the middle. Nowhere near my top tier, nowhere near the bottom though. Solid beginning for a superhero that was described as boring in the past.

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Mr Crispy
Mixing a WW2 period movie and a comic book movie works out pretty well. It still feels a bit formulaic and hitting a lot of familiar plot beats for both genres, but the synergy between the two (and being removed in time from the other MCU movies) helps it feel a bit fresher for a comic book origin movie. I also liked the supporting cast. Though the climax needed a better one on one hand to hand fight with Red Skull instead of just vanishing, after building him up as an evil counterpart to Cap. Also the biggest disappointment is how much the start spoils the ending - the fake out before the scene with Cap meeting Fury would have worked out better if it didn't show the wreck in the arctic. If they wanted some way to transition from the current day back to WW2, they could have been more creative about it. Like I dunno, having Coulson showing one of the other agents his Captain America cards and talking about him (which could also tie into having the cards in The Avengers). Well, that's not really all that clever either since it's just something off the top of my head.

Whiskey Nick
(No write-up.)

Mega Mana
First Scene That Comes to Mind: Covering the grenade

Chris Evans is to Captain America as Michael Keaton is to Batman. Often cast as a stock generic lead comedy actor, his casting as the lead role of a morally set superhero was completely questionable and often looked at as a mismatch... until it turned out they completely nailed the role and it's difficult seeing anyone else doing it much better in the same shoes. Except there have been numerous takes on Batman before and since that have worked for different reasons, but I don't know if anyone will be able to match the heart, integrity, and willpower Chris Evans brings to Steve Rogers. The MCU may not have been able to succeed without Robert Downey Jr.'s Tony Stark, but I guarantee it all but collapses without Evans' Cap.

Everything that is Steve is introduced in this movie. He knows what it's like to be the weak, little guy, and he's got gumption and drive to fight for what's right even before he's made of muscles. His training exemplifies this showing more moral fortitude than most of the jockish candidates Agent J wants to put to the test. He's made to be a posterboy and propaganda piece, but knows he wants to fight for what's right and goes to save his best friend and take on the Nazis. He loves Peggy. He loves Bucky. His moral compass is strong. I know these sound like dumb descriptors, but they're real and they get truer and deeper with every passing movie. He takes charge and leads by example. He sees when something is wrong and takes a stand against it no matter how big the force he faces is. He recognizes and enables good men to do good things. He is the star-spangled man.

Captain America: The First Avenger is two-thirds the best MCU origin story and one-third terrible superhero flick. As soon as the Red Skull appears, the movie goes off the rails. There is a clear before-and-after where the movie shines and then no longer does. Hugo Weaving is a great actor, but his ham is not right for this movie. Hayley Atwell's Peggy Carter has such a standout performance she got her own television show and continual reappearances in many Marvel movies.

And while Steve's final line about not getting to dance with Peggy originally felt cheesy and out of nowhere, it has so much more weight to it when you see Cap's journey through until Endgame. That really is his one selfish care in the world. He becomes a man out of time who uses his powers, leadership, moral fortitude, and old world mentality to make the world a better place. But he hangs on to those in his life that he cares about and would do anything for them. He hops a motorcycle and goes behind enemy lines to save Bucky, he faces down the Avengers to clear his name, and he lives out the remainder of his years to be with the one person he loves with all his heart. He's a good man and a good soldier with a good heart. Clear eyes, full heart, can't lose.

Again, would be much higher if the last third didn't suck.

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16. Captain America: The First Avenger
Total Score: 497

Mr Crispy - 9
Whiskey Nick - 9
Mega Mana 10
NBIceman - 10
BetrayedTangy - 11
Eddv 11
GavsEvans123 - 11
MetalDK 11
CoolCly - 12
Snake5555555555 - 12
Anagram - 13
StifledSilence - 13
ZenOfThunder 13
PrinceKaro 14
Raka Putra - 14
Inviso 15
Red13n - 15
Maniac64 16
TomNook - 16
HanOfTheNekos - 17
Sheep007 - 17
Jesse Custer 19
XIII Rocks - 19
Johnbobb 20
Lopen 20
Paratroopa1 - 20
Corrik7 21
Cybat - 21
ScepterOfLove - 21
MetalmindStats 22
VengefulKaelee - 22
Illuminatusbubu 23

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Mega Mana posted...

Spider-Man = Vulture (Two enterprising engineers who raid scrap yards for their personal use, but have two entirely separate interactions with Stark/SHIELD; Vulture loses everything, Spidey gains everything)

I meant in terms of power sets. Marvel tends to give their heroes a villain who has the same powers, but is inherently superior in some way, thus creating a challenge the hero has to overcome in order to defeat them.

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Iron-Man = Iron-Monger (Iron-Man, but Bigger)
Hulk = Abomination (Hulk, but Bigger)
Thor =/= Loki/Frost Giant Guy (Wily Trickster...and a Frost Giant Guy)
Cap = Red Skull (Same Superhuman Enhancement)
Guardians =/= Ronan (Really Powerful Dude with an Army)
Ant-Man = Yellowjacket (Ant-Man with Lasers)
Strange = Kaecilius (Doctor Strange with Years More Training)
Spider-Man =/= Vulture (Doesn't really have an origin story, so hard to say)
Panther = Killmonger (Black Panther, but More Merciless)
Marvel = Yon-Rogg (Captain Marvel, but weaker. Holy shit why is this movie so bad?)

Man, Marvel is really bad at villains in their origin stories, huh?

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CoolCly posted...

Ant-man and the Wasp doesn't really excel, but if the average Hollywood action movie (or even non MCU comic book movie) was at least as good as Ant-Man and the Wasp, the average quality would be a lot higher IMO.

I can agree with this. I ranked Ant-Man and the Wasp only 10th, because compared to a lot of the BEST the MCU has to offer, it's lacking. But it's a fun movie and it's a smaller scale (no pun intended) than a lot of the world-ending plots that make everything feel like the highest stakes imaginable. That sort of story stands alone a lot better than similar stories in Amazing Spider-Man 2, or Batman & Robin.

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OUTLIERS:

Eddv - 62
Johnbobb - 37
PrinceKaro - 35
BetrayedTangy - 26
GavsEvans123 - 26
Mr Crispy - 26
Lopen - 25
Raka Putra - 23
VengefulKaelee - 23
Illuminatusbubu - 22
Inviso - 22
HanOfTheNekos - 21
TomNook - 21
Jesse Custer - 20
ScepterOfLove - 20
Whiskey Nick - 20
Maniac64 - 19
Paratroopa1 - 19
XIII Rocks - 19
Snake5555555555 - 18
StifledSilence - 18
Corrik7 - 17
MetalmindStats - 17
Cybat - 16
CoolCly - 15
Red13n - 14
Sheep007 - 14
Anagram - 12
NBIceman - 12
Mega Mana - 8
MetalDK - 8
ZenOfThunder 2

Zen hits another spot-on to stay at two, as Mana stays at eight to claim a tie for second place at the bottom of the list, while Metalmind makes a large jump up into the middle territory. At the top, Eddv maintains a commanding lead, but with this place, Johnbobb overtakes Karo for second place!

Spoiler for Number 16: Only three movies left received a 23 placement on any list. This is the lowest of those three.

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Johnbobb
No film suffers from the dependency on the rest of the franchise quite like A Man and the W. Perhaps my favorite story to come from Behind the Scenes of the MCU was Michael Douglas (Hank Pym) not understanding what the fuck was going on when he read this script, only to later be informed it was because he hadn't seen Civil War. Ab Mab and the Wab just doesn't stand on its own, and it's one of the only MCU films that can't. It's kind of a shame too, because the first one was a bit of a funny gem, while this really felt more like it was only here to serve the purposes of the franchise.

Mr Crispy
This movie only exists for the post credits tag scene.

Ok that's not entirely fair to say, since Ant Man and the Wasp does resolve the plot threads from the previous movie about Hope's mother so it's not completely superflous or pointless. It's just boring and abandons much of what gave the original its personality compared to other MCU films while trying to expand the scope. What stood out about the original Ant Man from the other MCU films at the time was that it was more of a heist movie about planning on how to break into a highly guarded facility using shrinking powers, but Ant Man and the Wasp is mostly driving around the city to avoid being caught and making things bigger. There's probably not a whole lot of difference in making shrinking and growing special effects because they would both probably mostly involve actors interacting with oversize props, but shrinking is more interesting and charming (as I'll go into in my Ant Man writeup) than "Oh look he's 40 feet tall now. I guess you could say he's gi-Ant Man now. (That is a pun, or a play on words.)"

Ant Man and the Wasp isn't really even all that necessary for setting up the time travel in Endgame, since nothing in the movie really explains why it would necessarily work even in terms of technobabble (and in Endgame the explanation is pretty much it just works 'cos quantum, as an Unseen University graduate would probably say).

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Sheep007
I watched this one in the cinema, pretty much on release. I forgot almost everything that happened until just now rewatching it. Firstly, it has the worst opening of any MCU movie. It starts off with a cute joke a worlds greatest grandma trophy for your dad. Its funny and made me smile, because its the sort of thing Ive bought for someone in the past and is just a nice visual gag. And then they explain the joke in the dialogue. I guess they think were too stupid to read? Something about that irrationally bugs (get it?) me. The humour doesnt really pick up from there, and for the movie intended to be lower stakes and goofy, thats a big problem. Ghost is intended to be sympathetic but I cant bring myself to care about her, and theres another even more generic villain whose name Ive already forgotten despite rewatching it yesterday. I dislike every character more than before in this: theyre pretty much all more irritating and less funny. Luis is good to watch in one movie, for the first time, but once you know that most of the gag is just a dude talking quickly it loses you a bit. Ill admit I liked the ant at the house, though. This leads me to another issue, though: theres too many plotlines, and not enough characters I care about. Seriously, how does Ant-Man of all things have so many characters or threads who require screentime in it? The plot is just so pointlessly complex, and this might be excusable if it were good. The film isnt boring, but few MCU movies are (and theyre all below this one), and I would like to be able to praise something to a higher standard than not boring especially when its an action movie with this kinda budget. People make movies ten times more entertaining and with hundreds more things to say, on fractions of this money. Marvel at this time started taking some risks (safe risks, but still outside the comfort zone of their previous work!), making the bland mediocrity of this even more apparent. Ive criticised it a lot, but its still a clear step up from the worst MCU movies. Ill even throw in some praise! The quantum realm is really interesting both in idea and execution (something with pretty colours in a less-good Marvel movie! Shocking!), and while it doesnt redeem it entirely, it could make the future Ant-Man films a massive step up.

VengefulKaelee
It's fun enough to watch in the moment, but in the long run, Ant-Man and the Wasp is one of those movies that you forget even exists shortly after you've seen it. Honestly the most memorable thing about this movie is the post-Snap mid-credits scene, which was an inspired choice.

Whiskey Nick
(No write-up.)

XIII Rocks
Sad that Michelle Pfeiffer (and Walton Goggins) went so underused and underserved here, but we did get Paul Rudd's impression of her, which was one of the most amusing and bizarre moments of a movie that was in general not amusing or bizarre enough; a lesser Doctor Strange in that regard. Still, Rudd/Lily/Douglas do a good job and it's reasonably entertaining. Very much Marvel at a stroll.

Eddv
The quintessential Marvel movie. I watched this once and it was fine. Perfectly inoffensive. It tried nothing, accomplished nothing and left no lasting impression. MCU in its pure state.

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MetalDK
Both this and Ant Man right below are similar. Liked the tie in to Civil War with Scott being under house arrest in AMatW a bit more over the original. Thought the scene Hank and Janet in the quantum realm was a nice scene, but the rest was a normal heist type flick

NBIceman
This is the entry in the MCU that I have the fewest thoughts on, because it really wasnt meant to be super meaningful in the grand scheme of things. Its a lighthearted cooldown from Infinity War that also serves as a lead-in and setup to Endgame with the post-credits scene - everything else is pretty pointless. Its fun pointlessness, though. Rudd is a great Scott Lang, and the supporting cast plays off him well. The X-Con trio is probably even more entertaining than in the first Ant-Man. Walton Goggins is an absolutely delightful actor that should be in everything. Theres even some pretty creative action sequences. Just a good time.

PrinceKaro
So basically Scott is hearing messages from the beyond or something and this leads to a bunch of convoluted plot points that arbitrarily bring groups of characters into conflict with each other as they all fight over Pym's chibi lab.
We go though all the required motions we ride some ants, steal some macguffins, but the magic that made the first movie work is gone. Even the jokes are recycled from Ant-Man 1. More people are crushed by enlarged children's toys! Scott's mexican sidekick does his wacky storytime gag for like the fourth time! This isn't funny anymore, get some new shit.
it is a forgettable and safe sequel where everything works out far too perfectly, and I worry for the MCU if we get any more of these soulless cash grab movies like this one.

Snake5555555555
Ant-Man and the Wasp is one of the funniest MCU films, and also one of the best casts, if not for Walton Goggins alone. The compliments start and end there. This attempt to make Ant-Man of all heroes one of the corner-stones of the MCU just doesnt work for me. Paul Rudd has fine comedic timing but any attempts at serious or grounded moments always falls flat, and talk about your supporting cast out-shining you in your own film. Theres also a bunch of stuff thats simply glossed over like everything to do with Scotts non-sensical house arrest and other stupidity like a hot wheels car being able to run? The quantum mechanics are just so incosistent which is another reason maybe you shouldnt make a film entirely centered around this hero.

Lopen
This is the only movie from the MCU I hadn't seen when this list was announced. As it stands, the movie is "fine." If you liked Ant-Man this has more of the same charm. My main problem here is just that-- more of the same. You're only in it for a stock Marvel action fix. It doesn't really add anything to the big picture, and it lacks the world building appeal that the first had when the quantum world was new and exciting. I think Scott Lang kinda nails it when he says "do you guys just put the word 'quantum' in front of everything?" Like it's a funny line, yes, but it summarizes how lazy the movie feels really well. I don't regret watching this, but I think any time I'd watch it again I'd rather just rewatch Ant-Man.

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Mega Mana
First Scene That Comes to Mind: Cardboard tunnelling with Cassie

This is a tough film to write up. There is so much to enjoy in the moment as things happen on screen. There is great humor, earnestness, superheroics, running gags, characters, and just a surprisingly breezy film for how many different characters and factions it is juggling throughout. Scott, his family, Hope, Hank, Foster, Ghost, the FBI, Walton Goggins, and X-Con Security Consultants. The movie looks fantastic with Ghost's afterimages, the seamless size-changing throughout, the quantum realm. There's a great deal of hope and 'never give up' attitude especially with the twist that the superpowered 'villain' of the film, Ghost, is just trying to survive with Bill Foster doing everything he can to make sure that happens without anyone else getting badly hurt.

It feels somehow too breezy, though. Everything comes together over a nice cohesive throughline, and it's impossible to truly wrap one's head around the mechanics of size-changing (where does the weight go from the cars and building when shrunk? How was Hank able to get to Janet at the quantum level just in terms of location? What happens to Ghost without the quantum energy Scott's harvesting when he comes back five years later? Will Randall Park learn close up magic?). It's magic that doesn't seem to have much in the way of rules, but it's fun and they have fun with it. The special effects are incredible throughout.

P.S. I just wanted to make a quick note. Right after re-watching this movie, I saw Justice League in my recommended movies for free and decided to watch for the first time. Two scenes in, I had to quit. Ant-Man & the Wasp is like C-Level in terms of MCU importance and in-between both Infinity movies as well as Captain Marvel. It's budget and special effects are probably not the best of the best at the company. How then does Ant-Man and the Wasp look one-hundred times better than Warner Bros. tentpole massive budget juggernaut to compete with the Avengers after only two scenes?! Two?! HOW DOES THE MOVIE START WITH THE SUPERMAN LIP THING?! WHY DOES THE GOTHAM FIGHT LOOK LIKE WORSE USE OF GREEN SCREEN THAN THE ROOFTOP ON THE ROOM?! WHY ARE THESE THE FIRST TWO SCENES YOU PRESENT YOUR AUDIENCE?!?!

Red13n
A lot of my enjoyment from the original Ant-Man was that aside from moments towards the end, it strayed further from the typical MCU genre. Ant-Man and the Wasp unfortunately just moves into more generic action filled comic book movie. Not bad territory, but Ghost is never a compelling enough villain to really drive the story beyond generic. Too far into the irrational character to ever be a character that feels compelling. Beyond that, we go in and tie up pretty much all the loose ends hanging from the first movie, get enough size jokes to go stale, and then just get the setup for Endgame, which was the real goal of the movie.

ZenOfThunder
I closed my eyes trying to remember the villain for this one for like 30 seconds and all I could picture was stupid-ass Sonny Burch with his stupid-ass cowboy hat and terrible southern accent. The actual villain is Ghost who was cool but this movie was just kinda "hey give us some more money before Endgame thnx." SHOULD HAVE BEEN EDGAR WRIGHT.

CoolCly
Fun heist movie! I love that this movie did not try to make the stakes extraordinarily large and kept it to a pretty small scale fight between thieves, with some emotional stakes added in trying to recover Hanks wife. I also am a HUGE fan of the villain triangle when theres two separate villains who are both antagonistic towards the protagonist, and *just* as antagonistic towards eachother. Its a pretty uncommon dynamic but I always enjoy it. Its too bad Ghost is a bit lacking character wise, but her moveset is pretty fun in how it interacts with Antmans.
Quantum Lawrence Fishburne is fun. I actually thought there was going to be a twist where he had been manipulating Ghost into doing what he wants, and maybe was even responsible for her parents deaths and her condition, which would have been a pretty generic twist. But then he just turns out to be a nice guy who is genuinely concerned about her well being, and even pushes back strongly when she wants to turn to genuine villainy.
Overall good movie! Just like the first Ant-Man, I feel like this movie doesnt go far enough to be a great movie it needs some kind of extra depth that isnt there that a lot of other MCU movies pull off.

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HanOfTheNekos
This was a weird movie. The plot was unremarkable. It wasn't particularly high stakes, though it was meant to be personal, so that's ok... but even the bad guy who was just a bad guy was a bit of a pushover... like nobody cares about this Joe Schmo. it's all about sex goddess who just wants to NOT FREAKING DIE I mean that's perfectly understandable.

The first half of the movie didn't really catch me, but in the second half, I was just... mind off and enjoying it? Very much a character driven movie... Paul Rudd, as himself, is a solid lead again. Good actor, great at doing shit, still interesting that the MCU is like Iron Man and Hulk and Paul Rudd but I digress...

Paul Rudd's daughter was great. Really fun character. His ex and her bf were really good too! Lots of good support here. Luis was hit or miss but the other two workers were really good.

Hank is... baddad Hank, but oh well. Hope was just amazing, beautiful, badass, FINALLY they get a woman lead in a Marvel movie and man if Iron Man 2 is any indication, way way way better of an idea than a Black Widow movie would have been. CSI guy was cool too.

And yeah Ghost is just freaking amazing, top notch, I hope she's in Endgame because if she still has her powers (probably doesn't?) but that'd be pretty useful!

Overall... like, it wasn't a tremendous film, but I greatly enjoyed it. Hope is probably my favorite MCU lady but Ghost is just super cool as well. Damn.

Anagram
Possibly the most forgettable Marvel movie. Its either this or Spiderman 2.

Corrik7
Ant-Man continues to hold that solid ground in the MCU. The movies are relatively decent, but at no point is this the movie you are going to write home about or be amazed by. Paul Rudd and Evangeline Lilly are both great. The movie has a wild sequence of size shifting and is generally fun. It just doesn't advance much in the universe or goes beyond the solid level ever.

Maniac64
The cast really makes this movie better than it should be. From the returning characters to Ghost and Foster. I really liked what they did with Ghost, she was very interesting and showed off how seriously strong that power can be. I'm also fine with them swapping the characters gender as the Antman movies are all about fathers and daughters so it just fit perfectly. The last third of the movie really does not live up to the start and the humor isn't as strong but its still a good movie.

StifledSilence
Fun story, watching Ant-Man and his daughter interact made me extremely jealous because I wanted a daughter in addition to my son. His little girl is so cute! Well, as luck would have it (or I guess the lack of pulling out), my wife was pregnant with my daughter! I didnt do it on purpose and it was a huge surprise when she told me, but yay! Oh and yeah, the movie is good too. More heists, more ants, and even a wasp! Good stuff.

Cybat
It is certainly understandable that they would want to put out a low-stakes light-hearted movie after the Infinity War cliffhanger, but it was a little too muddled and convoluted to resonate with people. Which is a shame because its still a pretty fun little movie in and of itself. The Ant-Man supporting cast is one of if not the most likable in the entire MCU (young Cassie steals every scene she is in in both movies), and Ghost was a compelling character until her entire conflict got handwaved away by quantum magic. My biggest problem with the movie is that, despite the title, there was no action scene where the two of them actually fought side by side except for like a fifteen second skirmish with Ghost at the end. Felt like a missed opportunity.
It may be the case that the majority of people who saw this movie only really went to see what the post-credits scene would be, but I for one am glad it is getting a sequel. Even if the ideas in this movie werent necessarily fully developed, they still have an opportunity to get some good stuff done next time.

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GavsEvans123
Ant Man and the Wasp isnt a sequel that changes things up like Captain America: The Winter Soldier or Thor: Ragnarok, or raises the stakes to a higher level a la Infinity War. What we have here is remarkably consistent with the first one, and theyre both virtually on par in terms of quality. This means that anyone who enjoyed the first film (as I did) will probably enjoy this one too, but the downside is that those who didnt care for the first film will find nothing here to change their mind.

Whereas in the previous film, we had a corrupt corporate executive as our villain, this time we have Ghost, who is more sympathetic, due to her powers being a curse that is slowly killing her. She is driven not by evil, but by her increasing desperation to find a cure for her condition before it kills her. Ironically, this desperation also makes her the MCUs We could have avoided all this antagonist, as had she or Bill Foster simply swallowed their pride and asked Hank for help, she wouldnt have needed to take the more aggressive actions she did. I hope for her sake that she got snapped though, because the post-credits scene implies that Janets healing hands were only temporary, and with everyone capable of going to the Quantum Realm either trapped there or snapped, Ghost would have most likely faded away in the five years between Infinity War and Endgame.

While the first film had scenes of ordinary settings shown a tiny perspective, we dont get much of that this time, which is a disappointment as this was where the first film was at its best. Its not a dealbreaker however, as instead theres more emphasis on shrinking and growing objects in creative ways. This includes our MacGuffin, Hanks laboratory, which can be shrunk down to the size of a wheeled case, which leads to a very fun climax in which three factions are all fighting amongst each other over it. This just so happens to be a favourite storytelling trope of mine, so Im happy to see it here. Theres also the return of the giant cartoon character running gag, and this time its Hello Kitty. Who will it be for the next film? My moneys on Peppa Pig.

Raka Putra
I do love Ant-Man's (and the Wasp's) shrinking and enlarging powers. It can make for some very fun fights, like Jackie Chan dialed up to 11. And the relationship between Lang and Cassie is once again a great and wholesome one. The banters are also quite great once again. Funny how it turned into Interstellar near the ending though.

Illuminatusbubu
A light-hearted movie that serves as a break after the intense Infinity War before it.

ScepterOfLove
(No write-up.)

TomNook
I don't think the quality difference between the Ant-Man movies are very far apart. While the first one is better, I like seeing some of the dumb sci-fi concepts they mess around with here. Ghost is cool.

BetrayedTangy
While we dont know exactly what Edgar Wright did with the first Ant-Man, you can feel his presence missing with this one. It just lacks the same creative flair, which was pretty disappointing to me. That said theres still a lot to like here! I think this is probably the funniest MCU movie, its definitely treated as more of a comedy which was really refreshing. Instead of Scott and friends carrying most of the jokes we get a whole litany of really funny side characters, Randall Park as Jimmy Woo was probably my favorite. Him attempting the card trick in his office made me laugh pretty damn hard. Comedy aside, I also love what they did with the Quantum Realm. It really gave the same vibes as a lot of Jack Kirbys art, which was a really nice touch. Really looking forward to how they dive into Quantumania.

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MetalmindStats
Ant-Man and the Wasp effectively patches up the originals paucity of spectacle while preserving its upsides largely intact. Perhaps no one will mistake it for high cinema, but in a way, that only helps its standing as a capital matinee movie.

Inviso
For the last Marvel movie I had to watch (Id seen Captain Marvel, Endgame, and Far From Home before), this was a really fun film. Not to make a pun, but I appreciate that the Ant-Man films are such a smaller scale, because while it lowers the stakes, it also allows the writers to tell stories that arent completely driven by someone trying to take over the world. In fact, I think this is the only film in the entire franchise where the end goal of the bad guy isnt some broad, far-reaching power grab. Ghost may not be the most interesting character yet (I feel she could have potential in future movies), but her motivations are very simple, and its one of the better villain motivations weve seen. But yeah, Scott Lang continues to be a great, relatable everyman. Hes not your typical, quippy Marvel hero, but hes also able to be funny when necessary. The comic relief is left to his sidekicks, and Im fine with that. And the action scenes are pretty great as well, because they utilize a unique ability compared to just punching or chasing. Add in the emotional core of the relationship with Hank/Hope/Janet and the fact that the main plot of the film was just rescuing Janet from the Quantum Realm, and you get a really solid and enjoyable film.

Jesse Custer
While I cant say there was anything groundbreaking about this movie, it was refreshingly lighthearted and humorous for an MCU movie (which felt especially welcome right after Infinity War). It was nice to see Hope get a much bigger role than in the first movie, and the premise of Scott trying to save the day while on house arrest worked surprisingly well. It was also nice to get a sympathetic villain whos not truly evil with Ghost, whose abilities made for great fight scenes. Basically the movie did everything it sought out to do, even if none of it was particularly ambitious. And its one of the MCU movies I always enjoy rewatching.

Paratroopa1
Ant-Man and the Wasp is stupid and I love it. Like the first movie, it's funny as hell, Scott Lang is a relatable protagonist, and the action scenes are all super creative and entertaining - it's lighter fare than most of the MCU and I don't mind that at all. I do think the sequence of Hank Pym going to the quantum realm to find his wife is a little on the ridiculous side and gets resolved too cleanly - he doesn't really face any challenges and she's just like, completely okay, not changed by being stuck in the quantum realm at all, just kind of hanging out? No sacrifices are made and everything gets resolved a little too easily. I guess that's alright? I guess it does have one hell of a post-credits tease though to make up for it. Fun as hell movie - I'll always want to rewatch this one.

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17. Ant-Man and the Wasp
Total Score: 513

MetalmindStats - 7
Inviso 10
Jesse Custer 11
Paratroopa1 - 11
GavsEvans123 12
Raka Putra - 12
Illuminatusbubu - 13
ScepterOfLove 13
TomNook - 13
BetrayedTangy 14
HanOfTheNekos - 14
Anagram - 15
Corrik7 15
Maniac64 - 15
StifledSilence 15
Cybat - 17
Mega Mana 17
Red13n - 17
ZenOfThunder 17
CoolCly - 18
MetalDK 18
NBIceman - 18
PrinceKaro 18
Snake5555555555 18
Lopen - 19
Sheep007 19
VengefulKaelee - 20
Whiskey Nick 20
XIII Rocks 21
Eddv - 22
Johnbobb 22
Mr Crispy - 22

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Corrik7 posted...

I read half of this. And I will admit I am drunk. But, c'mon man. Cops shooting back against someone who shot one of them? C'mon. Yeah.... Maybe the circumstances were weird but they returned gunfire?

The cops were legally justified to fire back at a gunman firing at them. The resident was legally justified to fire his legally-owned firearm at an unidentified intruder. Both sides were legally allowed to take the actions they took with regards to discharging their firearms. The police had a no-knock warrant, which was also legal. Everything was legal, and the end result was an innocent civilian being murdered in her bed with no consequences for anyone involved. That's the problem. The fact that everything involved in Breonna Taylor's murder was legal (and legal in favor of the cops who initiated the situation) is the reason why people want change and want the police to be able to be held accountable for the immense amount of power they are legally allowed to wield, regardless of how sloppy they wield it.

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Corrik7 posted...

Explain why. Why did that make you feel powerless but not the same thing without a badge. Why did it make YOU feel POWERLESS?

Because a criminal that breaks into your house and kills you has the deterrent of it being against the law. Sure, anyone still could break the law, but the knowledge that it's against the law IS a deterrent, and you know that if someone DOES break in and kill you, they'll at least receive punishment (assuming they're caught.)

Whereas, if the POLICE break into your house and kill you, unless you're talking about a rogue cop, it's usually going to be a completely legal matter. Hence Breonna Taylor, shot dead in her bed because the police broke into her house and started firing wildly (in response to her boyfriend firing a legal firearm at what he assumed were intruders, which HE is allowed to do due to the castle doctrine). No one punished, Breonna Taylor is still dead.

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Yeah, the party scene, while overshadowed by the plethora of pointless, detached action throughout the rest of the film, is the best part of AoU by a long shot. That and hiding out at Hawkeye's cabin.

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I mean, I could make the argument that selecting Joe Biden was the only option capable to taking down Trump in 2020. That's a pragmatic effort realizing actual change, even though you'll likely counter with "Well any Democrat would've beaten Trump in 2020!" (Which, lol)

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

How is it hurtful to my cause dude, we're posting on GameFAQs, it's not like I'm marching on the capitol with ACAB on a banner.

Wow Corrik, way to completely shut down my post by taking it exactly literally and not extrapolating out that the attitude displayed on a message board is then applied out into the wider world (by people marching with ACAB signs, as your used in your example) among your progressive countrymen.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

I've said it once and I'll say it again.

If the phrase "ACAB" repels someone into becoming a Blue Lives Matter supporter despite a discussion over what it means, that person was never open to the reforms necessary anyway.

Telling people to be pragmatic when the pragmatic folks aren't enacting reforms either is just telling angry (and oppressed) people to shut up, which is exactly the point of the MLK quote.

*sigh* So once again, we're back to where we started. Nothing you do or say is wrong or needs to be changed in any way, and if it's hurtful to your cause, that's only because the media/the establishment/the voters are unflinchingly unreasonable and nothing you could ever do could change their minds, so better to never examine or change your attitude or actions in any way.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Sure! I never said "the phrase ACAB demonstrably improves the world", but also...why is that so important to you? There are a million examples where "nice/inoffensive phrasing" resulted in no positive change?

"Black Lives Matter" literally led to reactionaries creating "Blue Lives Matter", is that a positive change? I don't think it matters, because Black Lives DO Matter, I don't care how those shitheads who would never affect positive change react. Do you get what I'm saying?

Also, even if you disagree with the use of the phrase, I still think "Cops aren't bastards, they're murderers" is a pretty fucking bizarre and not-positive or effective thing either!

You keep comparing ACAB to BLM, and those aren't nearly the same scale. Yes, disingenuous people misinterpretted BLM and started trying to twist it to mean something it didn't, but it's still an effective enough slogan to the majority of people. BLM's problem isn't the slogan, but rather the fact that its become associated with riots, which shifts public opinion more than anything. Note, I'm not condemning the riots. I think they're absolutely necessary since otherwise they get completely ignored. I'm just talking about how public perception shifts against it in a negative fashion.

With ACAB, it's immediately antagonistic and combative, and in immediately puts the entire movement on the back foot. It has no positive benefit and has definite negative benefits, and the end result is that the slogan makes people less willing to support police reform, since the people advocating for police reform come across as violent and extremist in their language.

You've regularly posted that MLK quote about white moderates, and it's right. White moderates ARE a stumbling block. But just constantly bitching them out and saying "You guys suck" is not a solution. It's just saying things to make yourself feel better, to the detriment of your cause. If white moderates are a stumbling block, then how do you propose to work around them? Keep in mind that you have a LARGE fucking chunk of this country that are right-wingers and would gladly push for policies that are the exact mirror image of everything you support, so you cannot afford to write off the moderates that are willing to be apathetic and least not work AGAINST you. If the ACAB slogan is antagonistic and scares those white moderates into thinking you're more of a threat than the murderous police force, then that's a net negative towards achieving your goals. It sucks, yes, I fully admit that it sucks from an ideological standpoint, but you have to be pragmatic once in a while.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

I think we're moving onto a different problem here. I agree, there are far more people who just say "ACAB" and that's the beginning and end of their activism, but that's how it is with...everything.

Social media makes typing words out to the world super easy, and life, jobs, pandemics, etc make putting your life and livelihood at risk for physical demonstrations difficult.

But to put a bow on this, I don't think any of that has to do with the phrase "ACAB" itself.

It's an acknowledgement of the utterly poisoned system of policing, and frankly, it's better than vague suggestions of "guys let's try something different that maybe the Blue Lives Matter folks won't recoil against", which I need to reiterate, is such a complete waste of time, that it's ridiculous to act like it's the reason nothing gets done.

Can you at least admit that ACAB doesn't help enact positive change in any way? And that it's largely a slogan for people to vent their anger without having to put any actual effort into enacting that change?

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