Lurker > EDumey

IfGodCouldDie posted...

Is this an attack on me?

I'm pretty sure Crescent was referencing an actual player named Not_Mafia that plays on a forum called Mafia Scum.

UltimaterializerX posted...

Yes but I always assumed you were Blade.

i thought the same thing just a couple games ago tbqh

i'll join

red13n posted...

I think bussing is the right call there actually. Its not a great option, but killing off the other team was probably the worst scenario there. Keeping 2 kills a night up is real important when playing from behind.

That's possible. I kind of think replacing into the game and immediately bussing my last remining teammate would have been super disrespectful, so there' approximately 0.005% chance I personally would have chosen that play, but I don't deny that was a possible strategic option.

masterplum posted...

I do think that mafia brings out the worst in me. I said some pretty mean things this game.

I need to commit to just replacing in if playing at all, because I think Im philosophically incompatible with social deduction games. D1 made me angry but it was anger at factors completely outside mafia.

I think I just dont play D1s ever again and if that ends with me not playing mafia so be it.

Despite me being scum, I did actually think during my reread that you were playing pretty well and very towny. Almost all of the things you got suspected for were because of the lack of knowledge about the two scum team setup. Reading with that context really made a lot of the hesitations you had make perfect sense. Don't be too hard on yourself for this game in particular.

GGs, I had fun for the one day I got to play in. :P

I said it in scum chat, but good job Isquen in not going for the "planned" confirming loop to instead watch the pretty obvious kill target. It was something we considered, but decided not to play around, so I totally deserved to die for it. We knew it was a risk.

I kind of wish that I had found a better lynch target than Kirby since having both teams alive a little longer would have been better, but I think if I didn't push for Kirby there, then Death was the one getting lynched. So it was a damned if you do, damned if you don't. Oh well.

Is it actually? I think you're just gloating because you think I'm caught out scum.

Thanks MZero from the future. What a pal, trying to prove my innocence.

red13n posted...

Uhhh, there are literally two ninja roles and hes the only claiming tracker/watcher.

As if there have never been red herrings in scum roles before to throw them off? It's not like either of them were JUST Ninja. They were both Ninja X.

I don't even know what to say in this situation, gonna be honest. Last scum is probably someone insulated if Isquen were to try and 1 for 1. I feel like even if they had no options to night kill me, I definitely wasn't someone out of lynching territory, so ultimately I'm just confused.

oh what the fuck.

##Unvote:
##Vote: Isquen

I mean I doubt there's anyway I actually survive this, but obviously kill Isquen tomorrow. Jesus.

masterplum posted...

I think the next step is to wait to see what mzero and dummey did

Also what did dummey claim the last two nights again?

HB targeted Lopen N1, IGCD N2. I targeted Plum N3.

I think I'm on a similar line as you Lea, except I think the major flaw with your theory is that G Corp roles being funky would also just be SO MUCH STRONGER than Mishimas. Redirect is basically just stronger than BP GF. Role Thief is just stronger than Roleblock. Unless the last role is really weak, that just seems imbalanced. I dunno, but if you're gonna vote me on setup meta, I think we should probably consider that setup seems imbalanced.

The much simpler answer is that we saw one BP GF flip. And we have another BP claimed that's in our "too much protection" claims in Red.

##Vote: Red

I do think I clearly stated yesterday that I didn't buy Red's claim. But I also know that tunneling into that wasn't going to do me a lot of favors having just replaced into the game. I felt much more confidently about Kirby after doing my reread, and town had discussed testing my claim during the night, so I didn't have any problems prioritizing Kirby.

I'll give one additional interaction from Red that I find a little interesting.
I asked Kirby to respond to my vote in post 7.334. Kirby responded a bit defeated that there wasn't much they could defend against since I was mostly going after them for association arguments and wasn't really misrepresenting any of their posts.
Red replied directly after:
Leafeon13N posted...

How are you crying about being dealt a bad hand? No one is calling you scum for anything but your own actions.

I think it's bad for G Corp to lose the opposing scum team so early, as that leaves them most likely outnumbered by town. Was this a frustrated Red trying to stir up Kirby to actually defend themself? Red is certainly not the player to go to bat to defend Kirby and try to direct the lynch away, especially if his team really believed Kirby was the last Mishima, so I feel like this is the closest we get.

Kirby321 posted...

What confession? I am town.

Would I ever lie to you guys?

oh. well i guess thank you for making this easy at the end.

Isquen posted...

##unvote
Thank you for participating and I will come back to you later

Gut's served me well so far, I'm going to stick with
##vote: Dumey

I'm sorry but even if I spot you going somewhere it gives you an out to have claimed you were targeted by the night kill. It's TOO convenient.

I don't fault you for this, honestly. My only argument is that there's basically no way scum shoots me at this time, so this could wait until you actually see me targetting the night kill to pursue this, because that situation seems very unlikely with our current night action plan.

I know. I just wish I could get people to understand that results-oriented thinking is generally a bad idea. You can make bad decisions and get a good result. That good result doesn't mean you should keep making bad decisions. Gotta be able to separate those two things.

Anyway, I'm not voting IGCD and not really interested in lynching him today over Kirby or Death. Was just responding to him saying "i'm not scum and everyone here knows it."

Does day end in like just an hour? Or is it later? Not sure if people realize that Ctes changed the end time from last day, it's real slow right now.

IfGodCouldDie posted...

As for what pro town things I've done, as anyone to recall a si gle game where I have ever been town that has done "pro-town" things, they don't exist because any attempt at being "pro-town" that the majority of you bitch about has always led to me getting into a massive fight with someone and getting mislynched because I am not good at articulating my reads. I refuse to put myself there psychologically anymore.

This isn't a comment about this game, but IGCD, I think you and I just philosophically see the world a different way. I think the answer to "people mislynch me because I'm bad at articulating my reads" isn't "i guess i'll just never try again", and instead should be, "i'll keep trying to get better."
I don't know how many games you've played of Mafia, but people do adjust and learn to read players better over time. I think Sultan is a good example of someone who doesn't always make air-tight logical arguments, but people have learned to interpret Sultan and actually value him and the perspectives he brings a lot because they've understood him over time. But he comes in and tries every game, doesn't just give up.

I'm sorry if getting mislynched for your reads in the past has been frustrating for you, but I can promise you that this "I'm just going to sheep other players and never put myself out there" attitude is gonna end in frustration too.

IfGodCouldDie posted...

So you, like plum, only believe my lynch is worth getting rid of "anti-town" behaviour not because you actually believe it is scum behaviour. Such a terrible reason to vote someone.

Holy selective reading Batman. I said your votes were actively bad and your associations with known scum were actively bad. The anti-town argument is that instead of having positive looking scum hunting or genuine reads from you, the best I can get is your anti-town sheeping. It's not the reason for you being scum, but it's a reason why all I have from you is negative, and nothing positive.

IfGodCouldDie posted...

Also why couldn't I be town that genuinely believed Ulti was town? You talk about me not giving genuine reads but the fact that I was willing to give my life for a player i believe is better than me because I believed they are town is the most pro town mindset one could have.

It's not pro-town because giving your vote to the "strongest" player can backfire in so many ways. D1 you wanted to sheep scum Ulti. D2 you sheeped Lopen who mistakenly tried to move the lynch off of scum Wallz. (Maybe Lopen was right in trying to move it to scum Death, so the jury is still out on that one, but the point stands that even following a town call like that can move the lynch off of scum.) Pro-town is to give your opinions so that we can have an understanding of where you stand, so we can develop reads about the game. Even if you were town and give your vote to the best town payer and successfully lynch scum the whole game, it would still be an anti-town function to essentially be a waste of a player slot that no one can garner any reads on.

IfGodCouldDie posted...

I'll also throw it out there that it is pretty clear scum would have had to of known there is two scum teams due to the Williams sisters why would a Kemmerer of a smaller scum team handicap their team to save another member of a scum team or town in that regard the play makes no sense from a scum perspective.

This would imply that you knew Ulti was scum and tried to save him? The argument is that you being G Corp and thinking Ulti was town, tried to save him so that when he flipped, you would look better for not fully believing in the lynch. The fact that you did the same bullshit with your Death vote D2 where you vote to sheep Lopen, but then say you don't understand the Death lynch, means that you actively escape culpability for the flip regardless of whether or not it's a scum or town lynch. Have some conviction and vote for who you think is scum instead, instead of hiding behind other players and digging out an escape tunnel on the way.

Kirby321 posted...

It may be worth looking into what the dead scum players' reads were

It's funny, because this is like, probably my strongest reason for voting you.

IfGodCouldDie posted...

How do I fit in any scum teams?

You look bad in general for having a terrible voting record. Not wanting to lynch Ulti (I think you're likely not Mishima, but could still be G Corp who thought he was town and trying to gets points defending him). Sheeping all of your votes, even if consistent with what you stated you would do, is still scummy behavior, as it hides your real opinions and prevents us from knowing what you actually think. Frankly you should be lynched every game you try this "will gift my vote to the best player in the game" strat just to unincentivize you from ever doing it again, as it's not pro-town.
Peaf defended you out of nowhere in 4.108 so you have a bad association there and could fit on any scum team that includes Peaf. Red made a pretty bad "clear" of you in 4.437, so you could fit on any scum team that includes Red.
What pro-town things have you done this game IGCD? From what I can see, you've been anti-town at best, with scummy associations at worst.

IGCD I think you fit into several possible scum teams that I can concoct for G Corp, and at the very least Lea was implicating you earlier as well, Death is voting for you, so clearly not "everyone" knows it. There's just lynches with more confidence here first.

Unless you're G Corp with Lea or Death and don't consider one of their suspicions on you real? Maybe Lea if you're snapping back at Death like that? :thinking:

I have had a chance to reread D3 with a little bit more of a fresh perspective to look at the Death stuff again. I feel like the slip Corrik found is interesting but not damning. If we were to go after people for talking about the setup too early, I feel like Plum is the one that stands out the most there, but obviously I'm pretty confident in Plum being town, which is maybe why I don't see Death bringing up funky scum setups that we've had in recent games as too out of pocket. It would be different if he specifically brought up two scum teams out of nowhere.

I feel like Kirby has a lot more against them based off of associations against Peaf, and general play, so I'm more confident in lynching there personally.

I don't have anything major against lynching Death though, and generally like the people on the Death lynch more than I like the people supporting the Kirby lynch. Consider me amiable to switching, but I'd be interested to see what kind of battle lines are drawn up with the other players.

Corrik7 posted...

I'm not sure why you would be moving as you aren't actually going somewhere but redirecting someone else there.

I will be seen moving.

MZero posted...

There was actually a universal backup in the first game I played here, Luigi in Ulti's SSBM mafia. I just checked and you were in the game so you must be scum for lying /s

Although he just got the first town power that flipped

Goddammit now that is a callback. I submit. My only memory of that game is where we tried to convince a bunch of town to willingly lynch a Paranoid Atomic Bomb that would kill everyone on the lynch. Oh and Cartel memes, but I don't even remember the details of that.

Kirby I could understand if you didn't bother parsing through all my notes, but I find it slightly concerning that you didn't even bother to acknowledge my vote. Any thoughts at all on that?

If you'd like a more specific thing to respond to, I'd be curious in hearing you explain why you thought 6 Vanillas was "too many" in 17 before knowing more about the setup being two scum teams. You put forth an argument you felt pretty strongly on about Peaf being the first to claim Vanilla there, even though I'd consider you to be an early Vanilla claim as well.

Gotta make contact somehow! I see no problem in asking though, so I'll shoot Ctes a message.

Corrik7 posted...

The bouncer needs to ask A. Does the power redirect kills and B. Does the action count as moving to the target selected.

If it doesn't count as moving, then we are down to just 3 people who claim to be able to move.

I did ask and got confirmation that my role redirects any action unless otherwise specified. Kills included. I didn't ask about the movement thing, but I don't see why I wouldn't be seen moving. I would expect any other redirecting role to be seen moving.

I've only seen specific role backups before like Backup Recruiter and Kirby's Backup Hero before, not just general "choose anything" Backups. But if there were ever a game for scum to need a little redundancy, the high protection setup we're looking at could be it.

Kirby321 posted...

The real quirk of this setup is that Doctor and Bouncer can target each other and be completely invincible if scum doesn't have a roleblocker to shut down Bouncer or a strongman to pierce through.

It also wouldn't be the first time we've had "invincible" roles that scum's only recourse was to try and lynch. Didn't Changmas have a invincible role that only activated in MYLO back in Xenoblade? That had a clear downside to it, but it still was there. The real wrench here is that Watcher can confirm my movement. So scum's only recourse would be to try and attack Plum for being a second doctor. It's not impossible, but a huge puzzle for them to get through so the game can't just be dominated by scum shooting from the hip multiple days in a row.

Okay yeah. Doctor, Death Stopper, Bouncer, BP is a LOT of ways to stop double night kills from going off, and a Backup to bring one of those back if they get lynched or shot as well? It's POSSIBLE that the game is balanced around two scum teams trying to get past a lot of protection, but it seems unlikely that all this is true.

Technically Bouncer, and the second part of Death Stopper don't actually stop the kills from happening, just redirect them in their own way. Doctor and BP are the ones that actually stop the kills from happening. Does BP exist with Full Time Doctor and One-Use Doctor in the game, alongside the two redirects? (classifying bodyguard as a self-redirect here)

Obviously I'm self-interested here, but BP seems the one that throws off the balance. This is all kind of useless role meta though. I think it's enough to say there's too much protection claimed, and I'm most likely to suspect Red as the odd one out.

Corrik7 posted...

I believe he is doing a true read on Kirby thinking he is scum for the other team. I believe he is also rule of 3ing with Abacus, death, and whoever else he had there and death is the scum.

I believe he elsewhere calls out 4 people together and death is the likely one again there.

I'm not sure on the other one, but I made note of the beginning of Day 2, Topic 4, where Peaf lists Kirby, Plum, and HB as who he wanted to go after. I agree that it looks like Peaf was truly thinking Kirby was other team scum. I agree though, it seems pretty consistent that he keeps including Death at the edge of his range.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Hmm. Peaf is too smart to defend both IGCD and Red so haphazardly if they were all on a scum team together right? Lea, what do you make of Peaf AND Red both defending IGCD separately? (Red did so in post 4.437 for the record.) Is this Town IGCD and both Peaf and Red both casually writing him off as town?

I really feel like Peaf's post in 4.108 was a goldmine of info.
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/80399075/972581668

Corrik, if you're around, I'd like you to analyze that post in particular knowing Peaf's alignment, and your understanding of how Kirby is almost definitely not G-Corp.

Like, in a game where people are very suspicious at the Vanilla claims, it would very much benefit you to claim something like BP, especially when you can do it under the guise of countering me, rather than being pressured by votes to claim BP, a common scum fake-claim. It's just very convenient for it all to line up so well for you.

I can understand that Red. Which is why I also think it would be consistent for you as scum to wait until the very end to claim, and then conveniently have a claim that you think is opposing to mine. Being consistent with a behavior that is something scum often do, doesn't make it less scummy when it happens.

I'm willing to drop the idea that you're doing it because you think you can get away with repeating your behavior from last game. That's not the most important to me. I mostly brought it up because Lopen keyed into the same idea as well.

Isquen posted...

I want to see a Kirby wall and a Dumey wall get into a cage match and see which one survives.

I can only really do these type of wallposts when I'm doing ISOs, and this massive catchup was basically in that format. So me paraphrasing the game probably would lose to someone actually spewing out a wall of original text!

So two conclusions I'm coming to at the end of this is that I think a lot of people have been listing Kirby as scum this game, but Kirby keeps getting out of suspicion. With two scum teams, I think it's possible that the opposing scum team maybe did some genuine scum hunting early on and caught Kirby with town. I was upset when Han tried to invoke this against me in a previous game, but I feel like it's relevant to invoke the argument "If everyone thinks someone is scum, they're probably scum."

##Vote: Kirby

I would also like to state that I think Red has not look spotless this game, and him waiting to claim BP at the very end of the claims if he believes me to be unkillable, is definitely a scum play I could see happening. It's not a hard counter, so he could potentially back out of it if I were lynched and flip town, but that type of counter would be necessary to lead a lynch on me I think.

Also like to shout out Corrik for post 7.114 today, as I think his analysis of which potential scum would fit on each team pretty much exactly maps on to the "opposed factions" alignments that I was trying to work out during my read.

Topic 6
Red's insistence to not claim is on brand, but I wonder if he is trying to ride his playing by his principles that he demonstrated in the last game with shooting Kanz.
Lopen picks up on this and has a back and forth with Red a little, but Red remains stubborn and doesn't claim. Ultimately this is something that Town or Scum Red probably does, but having just played scum with Red not too long ago in Paper Mario where he played this same song and dance, and thinking he's riding the high of his principles, something in my gut tells me Red could be scum waiting to claim until the end here.
6.073 Lopen votes for Lea for cycling between low handing fruit and trying to see what sticks. This is not how town Lea plays.
I was starting to get a similar vibe to this, so I'm glad Lopen mentioned it here. I have an image of Lea that she is totally willing to throw her vote onto trains that she doesn't even really believe in just to advance the game state, so being flippant with her votes isn't necessarily a scum tell in itself. But it has certainly felt like Lea isn't even trying to support pressure, and just kind of limply throwing her weight toward whatever low hanging fruit lynch people are currently entertaining. Not prepared to call it scum, but not loving D2 Lea.
6.079 Plum I will note if there are two teams Lea is definitely not clear But if there is one I feel pretty good about her
6.112 Death coming in and running defense for Kirby all of the sudden at end of day when Kirby isn't in danger of being lynched? I'm confused at this line of play.
Interestingly enough, AFTER Death runs defense for Kirby, Lea and Peaf jump on Kirby train, tying Kirby with Wallz.
A lot of messy votes slung around. But then it looks like Death signs Wallz' death certificate (buh dum, pssh) in 6.224.
6.247 IGCD has voted Death to follow Lopen but then says the death lynch doesn't make sense. I understand IGCD has stated since the beginning of the game that he is gifting his vote away, but this is a laughable moment. Moved the vote off of scum Wallz, onto Death because of Lopen.
6.260 Lea makes a last second vote to doom Wallz for sure. I give her less credit than Death here for lynching scum. The part where she seems resigned to let Wallz die for not voting in self defense, but then changes her vote last second when it can't be reacted to instead of just waiting for it to resolve normally? That vote looks very weird to me.

Whew. Thoughts on alive players after Day 2.

Town: Isquen, Plum
Leaning Town: Corrik, Death (closer to neutral than town, but still leaning.)
Neutral: Abacus, MZero
Leaning Scum: IGCD, Lea, Red
Scum: Kirby

Day 2
Topic 4
Isquen and Lea immediately recenter on Kirby.
Peaf also votes Kirby, wanting to keep Plum and HB in the conversation. Rule of 3?
4.020 Lopen reverses his Lea bussing Kirby thought and votes Lea instead.
Peaf with scum knowledge pushes the narrative of why Sbell would have been shot, while Plum is considering potential third party shot. Points to town Plum.
Lopen now reversed on Lea, Kirby, and HB, but still doesn't like Plum.
4.050 Lopen again bringing up him and Ben talking about the scum equity in Ulti going after town Lea Day 1. He strongly believes something is fishy there.
4.055 IGCD sheeps Lopen and votes Lea.
4.059 Kirby finds it odd that Plum thinking of third parties. Informed scum trying to bury the info like Peaf was?
4.089 Mzero tries to go after Plum for what seems like meta how to play the game reasons? Really not sure I like Mzero here and kind of feels like he's trying to find his own reason to jump on a train with Lopen after he successfully AFK'd D1 on Ulti's lynch.
4.095 Corrik It seems a bit too obvious Plum is scum atm.

I feel like I just don't see it, which is why these posts are sticking out to me like a sore thumb. I am trying to consider Plum's posts with a little more scrutiny and not just throw him in the town pile, but I haven't seen it yet.

4.101 Mzero's push on Plum about Plum's skepticism of an Ulti lynch looks more towny to me. I think Plum was right in feeling skeptical, but for reasons he didn't know yet (end of day no scum saving Ulti because of second scum team and Wallz was trying to defend him). So unfortunately Mzero's push doesn't hold water with additional context, but I do like the posts from Mzero at least.

4.108 Peaf defends IGCD's end of D1 for no real reason. Says there could be scum in Kirby, Wallz, Death, or Abacus. Maybe two, but not 3. We know that Peaf and Wallz were not aligned, did Peaf Rule of 3 here with the rest of the options?
4.112 Abacus comes in and votes Plum as well. There are now too many people suspecting Plum for it to just be scum jumping on, so definitely some town (like Lopen) suspecting him. We know Peaf was scum. Would Abacus or Mzero also jump onto that train early? Definitely like Mzero's posts and pressure more than Abacus, but something to consider.
4.120 Lea Isquen and Peaf dropped Kirby real easily.
4.130 Peaf, knowing there is two scum teams, states that it is probably not 5/17 scum who know who each other are, and throws suspicion on Kirby knowing more than is publicly known. I think this post makes it seem like Peaf and Kirby are not aligned but Peaf genuinely suspected Kirby of being on opposing scum team. This lines up with previous reads above that Kirby could be aligned with Ulti/Wallz, and opposing whatever Lea is.
4.170 Corrik claims Peaf and Lopen are town. Unfortunate record for Corrik so far.
4.185 Corrik makes up for it though with a good analysis of Ulti's D1 play. I think I almost entirely agree with everything he stated in that post other than the unfortunate lumping in of Peaf, but that can be explained by the fact that Ulti and Peaf were on opposing teams, so no foul there.
4.196 Kirby talks about Ulti/Lea dynamic from the standpoint of there only being one scum team. Have to give Kirby a point in town favor here, if Kirby is playing dumb about knowing two scum teams exist after Peaf called them out earlier, they're doing a good job of it here.
4.211 Isquen claims Watcher and that he probably has seen town power since it wasn't a kill that he watched.
Wallz posting multiple times that Isquen not claiming who visited Lea seems a bit suspect. Corrik going a little too hard on Isquen with the vote I think, but Wallz is the interesting one here.
4.298 Lopen the great flip flopper has gone back to thinking Kirby may be scum, but is also leaving Lea in there. Lists playing lazy and that scum team may be pushing soft suspicion on Kirby to try and get Godfather scanned. I don't think this is actionable, but if Kirby was lynched and flips godfather, this would be an interesting post to look back to.

I honestly have a hard time following the Isquen/Corrik stuff with Isquen's claim. It sounds like Isquen is saying he did not see Corrik visit Lea, but Corrik is saying he did? And then Lopen comes in and states that Isquen must be scum even though he scanned Red and had his action stolen? I'm not sure I follow Lopen's logic there. He is assuming Isquen was going to say he saw Lopen moving, but claimed out in front of Isquen instead of forcing Isquen to put himself in a contradictory position? I feel like Lopen could have really nailed down this situation if he was more patient and didn't claim right away. As it stands, it's still a bit of a mess.
4.339 I appreciate Red being appropriately as confused as I feel reading this.
I'm not even bothering quoting specific posts at this point. Corrik says it's apparent that Isquen is town now and is being dodgey about where he visited or not. All I take from this is there is probably no direct contradiction between Corrik and Isquen.

4.433 Red tries to recenter away from Corrik/Isquen back to Kirby/Plum/HB. Not sure Red has thrown HB into prior suspects before? Seems like an odd addition.
4.437 Red tries to clear IGCD on very flimsy logic of does scumbuddy IGCD just blank follow scum ulti onto an early pile when IGCD's gameplan has clearly been to sheep his token good player target with no consequence. Bad town clear from Red here.

Topic 5
5.050 Corrik There isn't a doctor so Isquen protecting the doctor on Lea is garbage play. The person who went to Lea is scum.
5.052 Lopen the greatest flip flopper of all time says Kirby maybe town. But also points out Red having bad takes to the previous nights' claims.
Plum claims doctor as a counter to Corrik saying no doctor can exist and people guessing that Corrik is being coy about being doctor.
A lot of fluffing about, where Corrik comes to the conclusion that we should lynch outside any claimed party for the day.
5.197 Lea has a good post about Ulti's actions not matching his claim, but Plum's actions do. If Corrik had something damning, he wouldn't be willing to let Plum play it out.
5.204 Corrik calls out Mzero for parking votes early, good eye, Corrik.
5.206 Isquen and Plum, two people I believe to be town, starting a Wallz lynch, feels good.
5.212 Lea puts out a list of Kirby/Abacus/Wallz as scum. With decent reasoning on each of them.
5.257 Scum Peaf pushes doubt on Plum being doctor.
5.301 Really don't like Kirby's Six vanillas is a lot post. This again is either displaying more informed, or just a really bad game sense in general. There is definitely room for more Vanillas in the setup at the point, and Kirby already trying to draw the line at 6? Trying to get ahead of the suspicion knowing more vanilla claims are on the way?
5.321 Plum brings up multiple scum teams as an idea? Has this idea been floated before Plum brought it up? Could be something against Plum there.
5.328 Lopen nails the flavor split immediately after the suspicion though.
5.329 Abacus sheeping onto Wallz here is odd. It's so hard to tell if Abacus' voting record is just unfortunately lucky, or scum jumping on a bus. Especially with the two scum team thing going on.
5.338 Red visibly gags at that idea of Plum suggesting two scum teams.
A lot of shuffling around of votes as day gets closer to the end. It seems like most people are of the same mind that one of the claimed vanillas should go and leave the power to resolve later.

Topic 1.
Death looks okay early for mediating between Ulti/Sbell when they were going back and forth early. Knowing Ulti was scum here (as well as Wallz first post claiming he wanted to vote for scum buddy Ulti or flipped town Ben) makes it unlikely all the activity at that time was scum. This might be a bit of a weird read knowing two scum teams though.

1.293 Lea, I've replaced in, feel free to mason me. I'm not broken yet. XFD
1.350 HB (that's me! kinda!) claims Lea doesn't really seem to think Wall is scum at all. Also suspicion of Lopen at the same time for what it's worth.
1.364 Lopen Wallz ulti being paired I could believe citing the exhibit A fake as fuck comment presented by party Peaf. Good job on Lopen separating the groups pretty cleanly early on.
1.402 HB asks why Peaf and Lopen thought Corrik looked towny from his only two posts of the game. Possible Peaf/Corrik link there?

Topic 2.

I don't think it needs to be relitigated. But Sbell going after Ulti on work meta was absolutely disgusting. I think there was reasonable reason to suspect Ulti off the attitude difference Lea caught him on early without going to that extent. Hard not to read into people defending that as scummy, but that's ultimately a bias I'm going to shove away, because Lopen was one of them and I can see how that flip turned out.

2.196 Town Ben vote for Kirby, and is killed N1? Interesting.
2.200 Further expands that if Kirby is scum, Lopen is town. Not sure it works in the inverse. But the point is Ben and Kirby have history together and Ben prides himself on his ability to town clear people, so I think this is worth looking at.
2.216 Wallz makes a large post implicating Plum for his arguments around Ulti, and Ben because he's been leaning town on Kirby all game. [] If I had to guess there's probably zero or one scum here.
I think the Plum comment is innocuous and doesn't mean much, but I find Wallz commentary on Ben here fascinating. My previous thought of Wallz's Topic 1 post claiming he wanted to vote Ulti or Ben makes this a consistent argument from him, but I'm wondering if he felt spurred to defend Kirby here. Minus a point for Kirby due to association I guess.
2.229 Plum venting his frustrations in game reads as towny to me. My experience with Plum in Paper Mario as scum mates was that he was able to hold back some of his frustrations because he had the scum chat to vent in a little, and was a bit more cautious of coming into topic and giving off-hand reads about people. This post in particular just reads a lot more like I would expect from Town Plum.
2.244 Ulti votes Plum. Immediate vindication for my read.
2.264 Death gives neutral reads on Kirby and Ulti, and points out that Abacus, Isquen, Mzero, and IGCD don't have enough content to properly evaluate them. Left Corrik off this list?
2.283 Lea tries to redirect train from Ulti to Kirby. I don't think Lea is scum at this point, but if Lea is scum, opposed to Kirby, if Lea is town, opposed to Kirby.
2.387 Lopen Personally I feel Ulti trying "to catch" Lea here is a hamfisted attempt to townclear Lea and Lea is bussing Kirby and if I were to gamble I'd pin the scumteam as Ulti, HB, Plum, Kirby, Lea
Obviously I'm going to disagree with Lopen including HB there, but they had a little spat earlier with Lopen not liking how HB was dissecting his posts. I think the idea of Ulti trying to townclear Lea and a Kirby bus happening is the interesting part here. A little bit different than my previous read of Kirby vs Lea, but Lopen was also feeling some kind of dynamic here.
2.400 Ulti tries to abandon ship to Red. Ulti is not same team as Red, confirmed.

I'm giving Lopen a lot of credit on his theories as I read through since I know he's smart and has flipped town. But can't follow them blindly. He thinks HB (that's still me again! Kinda!) is scum for perspective slipping that he knows Wallz is town, when we know that's not the case. Again, two scum teams make that a weird thing to tackle, but so far I disagree with Lopen about Plum and HB looking bad, and have to take his biases into account. Also why I'm not putting full stock into him suspecting Lea for tripling down on Ulti to try and take credit for the lynch.

Topic 3
3.002 Corrik Ulti is town.
3.011 Ulti tried to fall back on uncountered town protection should not be lynched because it worked so well for him in Paper Mario. HB rightly calls him out for it.
3.031 IGCD comes in with a vote on Lopen, which looks like a soft defense of Ulti.

Peaf is kind of hard to read here even knowing the context of his flip. He was genuinely going after Wallz, so none of his posts really read super scummy. Not really associating himself with other players either, so I'm not getting a lot of reads from other players based on his interactions.

To immediately counter that thought:
3.068 Isquen shows up and expresses concern over Kirby, Lea, and then says he might want to vote Peaf. The only person I've seen suspecting Peaf at this time. Not sure what energy he was picking up on, but interesting. Likely town or opposing scum team.

3.119 Death correctly calls out Ulti's over-correction early Topic 1 again.
3.136 Wallz tries to add suspicion to Death in defense of Ulti.
3.149 IGCD goes on record not liking the Ulti lynch.
End of Day 1 thoughts on alive players.

Leaning town: Death, Isquen (very soft lean), Plum
Neutral: Abacus, Corrik, Lea (on the precipice of leaning town), Mzero (I don't even remember when Mzero voted Ulti, what the-), Red
Leaning scum: IGCD, Kirby

I would have also had strong reads on SBell, Lopen, and Wallz, but feel like it's not relevant to mention with their flips.

Are you all fucking ready!?!? To ignore 80% of the notes that I'm about to post!?

I'm caught up, but need a little bit of time to unwind after doing that massive catchup. I see that today there's a lot of votes on Death, which will seem pretty opposite of my catchup, so I'll need a little time to re-review the conversation today and see what I think about that. But I'm just gonna go ahead and post my catch-up notes for you all to muse over if you want.

I will give the disclaimer that I have not commented on every single post, because of expediency, but I did read everything. Toward the back half of D2 I definitely slowed down on the note taking and just internalized a lot of it to just process in my head. Sorry for poor formatting. Feel free to ask any questions on my thought on how specific events went down if you don't think you understand my perspective from the notes.

Host confirmed that it is any action unless otherwise specified. So night kills are included.

I'll ask for clarification.

Also I've finished rereading D1 and Lopen was pretty much the only person going after HB. They have a history of getting into scuffles. I don't want to read into it too much because I don't know the actual reason why HB does HB things, but I wouldn't put it past him to OMGUS Lopen. >_>

My role doesn't specifically mention kills, just says "any action." so I would assume it's kills as well. I don't have a problem with using my night action as directed.

htaeD posted...

Also I think I have seen roles like that before, but I may be thinking of something else.
I suppose its provable either way

I dont know why HB wouldnt just claim that yesterday, but thats neither here nor there

I mean with two shots per night, I interpret it as a role you'd want to keep hidden so you can hopefully redirect one of the shots onto scum. Now that I'm claimed, the "cool" factor of using the role as an outplay is gone. But I weighed the pros and cons of playing coy with it and decided to not be difficult about things.

Hello friends.
I was following the game through D1 as it happened, so I do have some general ideas of what happened there, but completely stopped following the game after that. Currently doing a reread with some quick notes. Should not take me THAT long, but obviously give me a little bit of time for any specific read questions.

I don't know the claim state of the game, but I'm not gonna fuck around with it as a replacee.

I am Noctis Lucis Caelum, TOWN Bouncer. Any action pointed at me is bounced to a target of my choice. HB targeted Lopen N1. IGCD N2.

Just for reference, I am reading through the game with the knowledge of what flips have happened, and the fact that there are apparently two scum teams. If there's any other pertinent context I should have while rereading, let me know. I'll refresh here now and then to respond to stuff if able.

My initial thoughts of the D1 stuff when I was following along was that SBell was a bastard for the work meta stuff he tried to pull on Ulti, but Ulti was still a deserved lynch by the end of the day. For someone that has bragged about catching people from Topic 1 posts, I got a laugh about him being immediately caught on his demeanor by Lea early on. No foul feelings though, Ulti, I just thought it was funny.

I'll list as a replacement.

wallmasterz posted...

Han, thanks so much for hosting this - I for one had a really fun time and I am glad I got a taste of experimental mafia. And being scum. Now Ive played as both alignments and I think that experience will be valuable going forward.

Town, enjoyed playing with you all. Im looking forward to more playing time especially with the folks who didnt do Star Trek as we have barely been able to play together so far.

@Lea , you absolutely deserve town MVP and @EDumey you deserve a shout out as well. Theres a reason you were scums lone night kill you were hot on the trail and I think you wouldve made the same valuable shot Lea did if given the chance.

I said it in dead town chat, but I was definitely coming into the day with the intention of shooting SBell. So I would have been able to save Lea a shot there.

But I also must admit that I was going to throw suspicion on Lea after my shot because of some of the things near the end of the day, which would have been me chasing a bad rabbit hole. >_>
I would like to think that she could have convinced me to analyze the No Lynch instead of chasing after her, but that's another universe's Dumey to know.

Cody11533 posted...

I was told after the fact (by Town and Scum) that my perfectly honest, genuine opening post looked really scummy even though I would have posted it regardless of alignment, so I can do better at thinking about how I'm perceived by others, or something. I definitely need to take the start of Day 1 less seriously.

Someone might have a better explanation for you than this, but I think there are a lot of players that think they can get away with making "cheeky" joke posts for their first post of the game, that end up revealing more than they wanted when players take them seriously. People rolling scum and coming into the game saying, "Sure feels great to roll Town this game :) :) :)" while it seems like they can just say, "I was obviously joking everyone," is sometimes a cheeky thing scum does.

I think your first post had elements of that type of "cheeky" first post, which is why you got at least Red to comment on it looking bad.

It's just a case of experienced players seeing it happen time and time again, whether or not you think it should be analyzed with that amount of weight or not.

Crescent, it doesn't matter if it was alignment indicative if you cared about the game or not. What was said was that you were acting super disrespectful and unfun to play with. I had a lot of respect for you last game, but that nosedived this game for sure.

I was gonna let it slide and not go for a personal attack, but your victory post annoyed me, so there we go.

ViolentAbacus posted...

I think it's HIGHLY unlikely that we wouldn't have hit scum in 5 shots with 5 member.s

Technically some of those could have BEEN by scum, so the ratio is a little less favorable.

You know, I was thinking of moving my vote before SBell. But you've done a bang-up job of convincing me otherwise.