Lurker > EDumey

TheSultanOfSlam posted...

I'd also like to apologize for my little blow up I had. I had some irl stuff going on.

I love you and hope you didn't genuinely think I was being too unfair to you! Sometimes I try to match energy and strike back a little harder than I really mean to.

I'm happy that I correctly read Peaf's end of day motivation. And TECHNICALLY my "date him and see if he loses trust in me" played out, though not quite how I thought it would. :thinking:

I also think I did a good job of reading and defending Ulti earlier in the game, attributing his actions as having fun with the format more than scummy intent. Too bad I couldn't keep that perspective at the very end, there was just too much that I couldn't make excuses for.

Lopen posted...

I think if I live we probably get Sultan but I feel like FD wins anyway. I had NO feel he was ever scum. Super strong bus

I think there's a chance FD dies as the lone scum just as a policy lynch. He's an obvious night kill at some point because there are stronger Mislynch candidates. IMO. Game was still winnable if we had just caught Sultan at some point during those last couple of nights.

Isquen posted...

So yeah sorry for leaning that hard into it. I was getting somewhere yesterday but too little too late.

I forgive you. I felt a little bad going back hard at you some times. So, sorry if I escalated it.

Lopen posted...

Anyway what I learned with this game is I'm never letting myself die again-- despite all the talk of how I throw games late it's obvious when I'm dead late game towns have leadership issues and just kinda mull about so may as well just try.

To be fair I told you not to trade for me because I wouldn't be able to solve better than you. :P

UltimaterializerX posted...

Town correctly reading and dating each other is never a throw.

It is when you effectively tie town's hands behind its back. I don't only blame you for this. I think town vetoing scum lynches is worse. But there was genuinely no way to really lynch Sultan on 7 there unless we did a Triple Kill. Which maybe I should have been more amenable to. I'll take a share of the blame on that for not really thinking through the scenario more there.

I'm really not that mad at the results.

Good game to FD and Sultan. Wish I could have pursued Sultan better. Not sure if I needed to be less antagonistic to Chris to get him to work with me, or more antagonistic to get town to convince him sheltering Sultan was a bad idea.

Isquen I genuinely don't know how or why you were so antagonistic to me this entire game. I legitimately never had you in my crosshairs, was never pressuring you, and was actually disappointed when Chris suggested you as a lynch because it wasn't the way I saw the game. Every time you came into the game, it was angry and blaming everyone else.

Peaf, I love you, never change. The end of day 1 made me laugh so much, I felt so bad for you.

changmas posted...

i mean....i can think of a bigger throw. "I am backup cop but there is no cop"

I think all of our power roles playing, "i'll just not play the game until the last hour of the day" is pretty detrimental in general yeah. If Red doesn't want us to force him to claim when he's cop, then he probably shouldn't put himself in a situation where he has the whole town's ire.

Lopen posted...

I mean people definitely noticed but it's like Ulti and Chris both bodyguarding him bought him enough time to get town cred back

If Ulti and Isquen didn't date each other the previous day, I genuinely think we would have lynched Sultan after Chris flipped. That's the biggest throw in my opinion.

lmao. But I tried to fucking get Sultan in there every single day. If not for Chris protecting him against everyone's wishes.

Kinda frustrating, but oh well.

I actually thought I would have a decent chance of convincing Sultan or Isquen that it was FD/MZero today, but I didn't expect game to still be going if it was already over.

oh

So we're in agreement that the game would just be over if scum wasn't paired yesterday, right? So this day comes down to Sultan deciding between Dumey/JC and FD/MZero?

Good game FD/MZero. You guys stayed out of the end of day chaos every time. Kind of annoying that MZero was one of them, but what can you do? It town's fault for never being able to make a decision before the last hour of the day more than your fault for existing.

Isquen posted...

Oh no, one accusation when I've been under fire since day 2 while you AFKed your way through mid game. Eek eek.

What fire have you been under bro? You are making up accusations and crying about it.

Isquen posted...

What is everyone's "I'm town and here's how" proof? I'm still relying heavily on Lopen vouching for me and the fact I am not a good secret keeper.

TBH I don't even think I should be given much "credit" for D1. I literally stated at the time that I didn't expect Peaf to actually break up with me because there wasn't much incentive as either alignment. If I get anything from D1, it's just a willingness to initiate a breakup when I was safe and had been the whole day, regardless of my partner. IMO, my town case is more from general play and D3 End of Day.

JC genuinely does look better from EoD D1. As multiple people like Red, FD, and Ulti have also corroborated, JC pretty much is only scum if literally all three of Peaf/Dumey/JC was the scum team. And I know I'm town. Basically the argument here from other perspectives is that you'd have to believe that all three of Peaf, JC, and I as scum willingly put ourselves at risk at end of day separately for that to happen. None of us were forced into it. It was all willing participation. It just doesn't make sense.

MZero and FD are PoE only. They've both been present and playing. They haven't done anything that would give them strong town or scum credit in either direction, unless you have a strong strong player read on one or the both of them. FD hasn't played scum in forever, so I'm not sure anyone could confidently player read him outside of general play. MZero I examined yesterday with his pressure on Sultan and Ulti, but pretty much everyone that interacted with it said, "meh looks okay/normal to me." If we were to lynch them today or tomorrow, it's purely out of paranoia that scum was sitting back and not being involved with the previous days' lynches.

I think I'd honestly be okay with pairing up and ending the day earlier. I just wanted everyone to at least be able to check in and give thoughts. Unless anyone wants to do significant rereads and needs the time to do so.

In my mind, today there's no way I'm accepting a lynch that isn't Isquen or Ulti, and because they dated yesterday, they can't deny that again. I have a PREFERENCE for Ulti here, but if Isquen refuses to play and Ulti slips through another day, then what can we do.

While I didn't do the pairs with this intent, another bonus to doing FD/MZero and Sultan/Isquen is that if Isquen and Ulti did something stupid like a triple kill, it's Sultan that's left out with them. But if they're town, they shouldn't do that because it gives us less chance to correct tomorrow. And if only one of the two is scum, they shouldn't do that because it's taking out more potential mislynch targets from their partner.

UltimaterializerX posted...

It's not, and the entire reason I wanted to be flipped already is because of exactly posts like yours. People refuse to consider me town in any endgame now.

This is not the reason you're being suspected, don't play the victim.

UltimaterializerX posted...

Dumey is behaving like a snake in the grass and our chat is loaded with inconsistencies from him.

A. It's not.
B. Incredibly hilarious for you of all people to call out anyone on inconsistencies.

UltimaterializerX posted...

Neither has done a lot of solving.

This is literally an insane take to claim I haven't done much solving, but MZero has. I'm not saying MZero hasn't done any solving, but to compare the two of our games and somehow come out with the opinion that I've done LESS is just ignorance or intentionally lying.

I'm so paranoid of everyone, lol. Sultan and Isquen distancing themselves is either genuine opposite alignment, or purposely trying to make an argument to not date each other.

But I still agree that I think FD and MZero are the "scum was sitting safe and letting town put up town for lynching every day" pair out of anyone in this game. So together with both of them independently suggesting they don't date each other today, I really want that pair.

I just am trusting that it is as simple as Ulti/Isquen at the end of the previous day never intending to die and going to find an excuse to mislynch anyone that was left with them. Really wish I had been MORE paranoid and had whoever we had with MZero ready to dump him if they didn't cooperate. Then we'd have Kirby still who I'd be more confident was a safe town to pair with. (no offense MZero, just my confidence in Kirby being higher)

yeah fuck peaf (i love u bby)

Isquen posted...

But whatever, I'm going to bed. Please, *please* try and actually fucking scumhunt. If you don't I swear to God I will channel Lopen from the grave and accuse everyone for two hundred posts just to get you to kill me collectively and quickly so I can *leave,* since no one ever fucking listens to me when I'm alive anyways until I'm no longer an easy mislynch target.

What do you think scum hunting is, Isquen? This is manufactured anger. You've done nothing all game but insist that you're right about things, while we've actually tried to think through motivations of different players and try to pressure people.

If Red was alive, then we would have had to suspect him of being scum. Him being shot as expected makes that whole WIFOM scenario not exist. It's the same thing as me saying that Chris dying today led to a more straight forward scenario today. Because if scum didn't shoot him, then we would have to seriously consider a Sultan/Chris scum pair.

From that same night chat with Ulti:

I do want to think though of the possibility of what happens if Red is still alive.
[4:01 PM]
If Miller existed, then is it reasonable that Godfather also existed with only 3 scum? It would make Cop incredibly weak as a role, but also would mean scum could risk not killing Red right away, and kill Corrik instead or something.
[4:02 PM]
The scenario I'm afraid of is Town Red/Town Corrik, but scum kill Corrik, and Town lynches Red because Corrik said normal cop doesn't exist in this setup.
[4:03 PM]
But if it's scum Red/ Town Corrik, then killing Corrik and trying to live on a WIFOM argument would be exactly what scum would need to do.

UltimaterializerX posted...

So going into D3, my thoughts are
Town: Dumey, JC, Corrik, Kirby, Isquen, Red (?), Chris(?)
POE: FD, MZero, Ulti, Lopen
Scum: Sultan

He didnt have Isquen in there.

Okay. I talked myself into thinking probably town. I said as much in my breakdown. What is the relevance of this?

Forceful_Dragon posted...

Tbh id prefer not to pair with MZero so he could pair with Sultan, which is who I think are most likely to be scum if Ulti and Isquen aren't. But then I'd have to pair with isquen and I get the impression he might not allow that

MZero posted...

So if we go with your new plan, Sultan and I should date,

Respectfully, if you both have independently suggested to not date each other, and I have to minimize risk, then I kind of feel like you two have to date today.

Sultan and JC can give their opinions on pairings though.

UltimaterializerX posted...

You didnt have Isquen in the PoE.

UltimaterializerX posted...

Room 4 - Lopen and Isquen - What to say about Isquen. PoE because not much to go on. I do appreciate that when he was here, he wasn't content to just take Ulti's date, and seemed to honestly think about who he wanted to date. He was in final 5 and was still being a little picky about who he wanted to date. Isquen is probably town in this situation.

I know you only think of things as 100% town or scum soul reads. But I feel like I communicated my opinion pretty clearly there.

UltimaterializerX posted...

Those are Dumeys thoughts.

Anyone reading that and actually thinking day one was 3 scum? Am I nuts here?

Is there something particular you're pointing to there? I don't even know what straws you're grasping for here.

UltimaterializerX posted...

I am 100% ok with this, but I want assurances that me flipping vanilla means you actually kill FD or MZero tomorrow.

I am completely on the train of if its you or Justin, you win. Dont care. Youd deserve it for being the final 3 day one and staying alive all game lmao

I already told FD if he was alive tomorrow, we probably policy lynch him regardless. So if he's scum, he knows that's the plan anyways. So the best we can do to avoid a scum FD win is try to pair him up with any potential scum partner today.

But again, unfortunately YOUR most likely scum partner is the one you can't date today. So you really have forced the order of operations here.

UltimaterializerX posted...

Im the only one bothering to check the wishes of dead players,

Right, like Chris reading Peaf's interactions D1 and just saying it's probably Isquen, and Kirby agreeing with his analysis.

UltimaterializerX posted...

Isquen I have a soul read on.

Oh wait it's convenient for you to handwave that when you have a soul read on a scum buddy.

Isquen posted...

When have I *ever* been able to keep a power role a secret?

You're not keeping it secret. You're overacting and calling everyone else terrible and pretending like everyone is out to get you, despite you uselessly tunneling on me all game and having almost no risk to you at any point in the game outside of when Chris said to lynch you because he didn't want us going after Sultan.

Maybe if you worked with us at any point in the game and appeared to read instead of playing the victim the entire time, then you'd be more believable.

If you wanted to lynch FD today, then you shouldn't have moronically partnered up with the one person everyone suspected you of being scum with. You left us with no choice but to resolve you Ulti. But thank you for simplifying the pairs for me. By insisting that scum must be FD/MZero, then luckily we can account for that.

Pairs today should be

FD-MZero
Sultan-Isquen
Dumey-JC

Ulti dies.

Isquen trying to push the Sultan lynch means he's not scum with Isquen. Ulti if you're somehow right, then by pairing FD and MZero today, they can't pair tomorrow on 5 and they can be lynched.

FD and I talked a lot about potential different scenarios last night, and luckily the most straightforward one where Chris got shot is the one that happens.

We lynch Ulti today. Simple as.

"It was all town at the end of day!"
This whole argument doesn't hold up anymore when scum has seen the blueprint work every single day. We narrow down the lynch to a final 3. Everyone says that things are too simple and that we messed up. We do a last second pivot. Ulti and Isquen went into the final 3. Declared that it was all town, then desperately swung for a pivot anywhere they could get it.

Ulti spent all game reading me as town, then swapped it up when he did his PoE analysis to try and isolate me with him and Isquen. I rightly called at that point that it was a ridiculous plan because the obvious conclusion was them not dating me and leaving me behind. When it was clear that I wasn't going to be the one with them, Ulti completely dropped all suspicion of me, and started pointing fingers desperately at anyone else he could.

We explained 40+ times why it was important that Ulti and Isquen don't pair together, but they did it anyways. Because it sets them up to pair on 5, which is exactly when they need to pair for early MYLO. If they hadn't paired yesterday, we could have had them pair today and test someone else like Sultan. But because they paired, we CANNOT afford to let them through today. Ulti and Isquen is the most probably scum team at the very front end of the PoE, and we lynch one of them today.

Isquen posted...

In fact every goddamn time the possibility of throwing Sultan on the chopping block comes up you try to deflect.

##date: Dumey

What say you to that?

This post in particular reeks of a desperate attempt to appeal to my game-long tunnel vision of Sultan to try and squeeze one more night so they can pair tomorrow. Even if Isquen was town, pairing with me here would be moronic if he thought I was scum, as he would want me to pair with someone else he suspects today so that I couldn't pair with them tomorrow. Complete theater from Isquen here.

The rest of the town we try to pair up smartly to avoid a scum pair on 5 if somehow Ulti is just bad town instead of scum. But that's just insurance.

I don't agree with that plan, but I know y'all don't care what I think. This is a "do something unexpected just because everyone seems agreeable" plan. But I think scum has learned to just be agreeable because we've done this song and dance 3 times now.

UltimaterializerX posted...

Justin also has to. There is a 0% chance he goes along with it or posts again today period.

JC already put out a breakup request

MZero posted...

Sure, but if he didn't move before he knew Chris was prosty why would he move now

Also do you want to date JC?

To me it was less about trying to utilize the 99% dead only power role left scan, and more just that Chris veto'd the lynch, so if he didn't date Sultan, I was going to push for Sultan to be in the final 3.

All that really mattered was Chris being with someone most people agree is scum, so that if we hit the other one, scum is forced to kill Chris to not get revealed. Ultimately I don't think it really matters, because even if they did want to WIFOM and try to keep Chris alive, then he's just confirming people.

But if we don't lynch scum, then it doesn't seem to matter who we pair Chris with. Scum just doesn't move with them regardless.

I meant to ask JC earlier to hold onto his MZero date and not take it yet just in case Isquen and Ulti convinced each other to go for a triple kill. Or I think I did tell gim to gold on to it, but didn't specify why because I didn't want to plant the idea in their head for no good reason.

I can only reiterate that doing a triple kill here is a bad idea if you're town and not 100% fucking certain you're taking scum out with you, which I don't think anyone can at this point.

Okay this might be a hot take that will get me booed, but I find a lot of BBQ to be too sweet, and it's not my favorite. I need a tangier BBQ in general I think.

I think I had an outstanding date with Kirby so

##Breakup

Isquen posted...

I'm stuck at work til closing time and sleep did not dull my utter antipathy. Tell you what, before I extend a useless mass date or AFK til the end of day, answer me this: when I flip town, who is the NK? What will you cluck over tomorrow when the chicken head collective is already pooling bloodily on the ground?

This persecution complex is insane. I think B8 killed you over and over has genuinely traumatized you. I don't know how many times we have to drill it into your head that we keep talking about SAVING you, not killing you.

TheSultanOfSlam posted...

It seems like all three of you are dancing and not want to invite to Mzero Isquen are Ulti a bit.

More so you and FD.

Yeah that true.

Kirby321 posted...

I mean, I think at least this first phase of The Plan makes sense, and I'm willing to follow through on it. I just want us all to agree on one person out of the four to lynch, because otherwise, it'll just be a clusterfuck of people doing whatever and then somehow we end up lynching Chris

At least that specific hypothetical is currently off the table!

I think the only thing that surprises us now is if Isquen decides he doesn't want to play ball with any of us. I think there's ways to play around that, but not much point speculating until he actually shows up I think.

Sultan I cannot understand what you just posted.

Lol. Sorry if I'm being difficult for no reason about this. I have a genuine reason to not be in the final three with Isquen, because he's made it clear he wants nothing to do with me. And I'm not sure how he'll react to this entire plan to begin with until he checks in.

Isquen if you're keeping up with the topic, you should probably extend a date to Kirby and/or FD if you want a chance at living.

Neither Kirby or I want to be the ones who "decide the remaining two dating decisions." We want town to decide.

Forceful_Dragon posted...

I think if it's all the same I'd prefer to date JC tonight. He's the person I'm least sure of from Group 2 and I think it makes the most sense. Then Kirby and Dumey get to decide the remaining two dating decisions.

Your hesitancy at being involved kind of makes me want to push you to be the one that does it more, not gonna lie.

I'm not sure why "people will suspect me of having saved someone" is such a concern to you when the plan is to vote by committee anyways.

TheSultanOfSlam posted...

Just do it if he doesn't accept your date idk man.

Idk who he's exspecting to offer him really?

I think Kirby is hesitant about offering a date to Isquen in case town decides to lynch him instead of Ulti. That's why Kirby is calling for a vote.

Can I abstain from voting and let your guys choose? I think I'm maybe the only one vocally expressing some hesitance on Ulti, but I've also said that I lean town on Isquen.

Ulti is my choice between the two, but I'd like other people to actually read Chris and Kirby's D1 reread and opinion on Isquen before just following the train. The more people we get to actually state a preference one way or the other, the more info we have to analyze post flip.

You know I object to it personally, but go ahead and do it. I won't hold this one against you.

JC as long as you're on for the deadline, you can just sit on MZero's date request for the moment. He sent one to you, but no need to lock yourself in quite yet I think. That will leave FD with the rest. If we really want Kirby there instead of FD, the I can date FD instead of Kirby. I guess it just depends if you want to limit Kirby from dating someone in that pool for tomorrow?

SirChris posted...

anyway who are we killing, I've been kind of disengaged today and I apologize. Just low energy and multitasking

Chris, if you're going to continue to veto Sultan, then send a date to him. Otherwise we need to consider him on the table since most people in town list him as a top suspect.

Ulti undated Isquen and listed Isquen and Dumey as his currently theoried scum team. So temporarily at least it seems like those options are back on the table. Need to start setting up dates so we don't leave it to last minute rush.

UltimaterializerX posted...

What question, do I think MZero is town? Ive made that obvious for awhile now.

I guess thats the best I'm going to get, lol. I was asking specifically if you thought he was going after you in a genuine way, or a "player always tunnels Ulti" kind of way. But I will take your response as an answer that you think MZero is genuine.