Lurker > EDumey

Ulti if me not responding to you last not was scummy, then why are you responding to everything but my direct question to you?

MZero posted...

I would tell you to look up Smash Mafia where Ulti and I were both town and I grilled him over inconsistencies but his posts are gone from The Site. You can probably see the quotes though.

The difference being in that game I was mostly attacking him for inconsistencies with his role claim and this is more with his reads and dating history

Was that the beetle game? No one can take any bad credit from that one, Ulti truly was on one for that game, lmao. I will try and go look myself, but part of me asking is trying to get people to talk about actual reads instead of just the PoE stuff we've been going on about. Thank you for pointing to a specific game reference though.

If Chris truly intends to veto Sultan, then I think Chris and Sultan should just date tonight. If by some chance Chris is left alive through the night, it prevents him from pairing again with Sultan tomorrow. If Chris doesn't like that, then it means Sultan is on the table today. Take your veto or shove it.

That will leave FD/JC/Isquen/MZero/Ulti. From the sound of current directions, it sounds like FD would prefer an Ulti lynch here. Would like JC's input on that trio specifically. I think choosing Isquen or MZero here is truly a PoE lynch if JC has come around on Ulti at all.

Chris gave his input earlier that after reading through D1, it should just be Isquen. I tend to lean town on Isquen and think it should be Ulti or MZero. It sounded like Kirby is amenable to both Isquen and Ulti, and to my recollection hasn't shown much interest in an MZero lynch.

We're kind of all over the place. JC reading the above what's your preference?

Ulti can you give your input on the question I asked about MZero in that post? Would genuinely like your perspective there since I was mostly asking about how MZero and you usually interact in previous games.

I agree. For as much as I got annoyed with Sultan's fear mongering yesterday, I will give him credit as either alignment for sticking around and playing the game through. I think some of my Sultan confusion may be due to the several games where he was "present" but not super active, due to being in multiple mafia games at the same time during Champs. It is a very different Sultan than what I'm accustomed to, and that might be why he keeps pinging me.

FD what is your honest opinion of Ulti's inconsistencies? The most recent one being dating Isquen after Chris picked Isquen as the best lynch candidate, and recently listing me and Isquen as the likely scum pair due to not enough people listing us as a primary scum candidate.

Do you think this is scum floundering for a mislynch? Or town Ulti genuinely reacting to the game and attempting to solve based on the direction of the PoEs?

Do you agree with him that everyone listing Sultan as their first or second choice means it's obviously a mislynch that scum is comfortable with?

##Date: Kirby

I think it benefits everyone if we try to get to some kind of stable solution before 1PM so that Mzero has time to argue his case if need be. I know he said he'd set an alarm to be available at deadline, but we don't want to do this last minute.

Ulti, I made a case last afternoon looking at MZero's posts and the only scummy thing I really think I could see was maybe going after you and Sultan for inconsistencies rather than motivations. From your personal perspective, do you think MZero was being disingenuous when interacting with you? Or did he feel like he was coming from a town perspective?

(For transparency, I'm not necessarily pushing for an MZero lynch here, just trying to guage the people in the bottom of the PoE and how they feel about each other.)

Chris says just lynch Isquen? Ulti vetoes and immediately dates him.
I give Ulti favorable treatment as incentive to undate Isquen, and say lynch Sultan? Chris vetoes.
Ulti tries to set up a final 3 with me and Isquen? Isquen will refuse to date me, and both Ulti and Isquen threaten a triple kill.

How would you like to set up FD's plan Sultan?

TheSultanOfSlam posted...

But what I mean is why are you freaking dumey I'd we are still going with the plan?

Are we? What steps have we made towards doing the plan? It looks to me like every attempt to set it up has been jeopardized or vetoed one way or another.

TheSultanOfSlam posted...

Dumey is showing a little panick at his name getting thrown around idk if that's good or bad.

Did you not like that word used against you earlier, so throwing it back at me?

I'm always defensive Sultan. That's just my nature. 90% of the games I play here I get into a big argument with someone defending myself.

To be truthful though, it's more annoyance at trying all day to try and move people toward actually pairing up and moving the game state forward, having someone like Ulti completely spit in it's face, and then he comes in and expects everyone to work with him instead, while coming up with insane conclusions that obviously have major flaws in them. It's just annoying to deal with, so I'm being childish in return.

As for Isquen, I don't really know what else I can say on that front. I literally haven't gone after him at all today, and Ulti is even suspecting me of being scum buddies with him, and he still is making up his own fantasy about what I apparently think of him. ???

Isquen posted...

Why would I save the one I've been SCREAMING HAS BEEN SCUM SINCE DAY 1. That's a triple kill I'd gladly take.

I'm going to bed, screw the lot of you. Talk to me tomorrow when I may give half a damn anymore.

Yes, don't acknowledge either one of my responses that show you were just talking out of your ass with your bias that comes from who knows where.

Forceful_Dragon posted...

Just the fact that it's 4 people not 3, and letting the 4 of them decide for themselves who to kill gives scum an outsized influence on the result while also allowing them to pair on 9 and keeping a path open to try to NOT pair on 7.

If we miss twice AND the remaining two are in a situation where they aren't forced to pair on 7 then we're just giving up the entire day of 5 for no reason.

But I've said my piece numerous times now :shrug:

Yeah, I get it. It's not really me you need to convince anyway. I'm happy to follow the plan, but you have to get people to actually buy into it. The scenario I tried to push to offer a good situation to Ulti previously was flatly denied by Chris, so I don't know what to do with it.

Isquen so bad at reading he doesn't understand the problem with him not being willing to date me, is because it means I can't save him in the situation Ulti is proposing. Fucking lmao.

Isquen posted...

I'm so glad Dumey's looked at his watch and went "oh, we're on Day 4, that means it's Day 2 twice over! Time to mislynch town-confirmed Isquen!"

Imbecilic.

Isquen you're so illiterate you don't realize that I've not been advocating for your lynch at all today. The one time I said a literal joke to your face with a /jk in the post itself. I started the day trying to rationalize your end of day because I thought it made you look towny. Chris saying to lynch you earlier went directly in the face of both directions I was trying to push for. This grudge of yours against me is totally unfounded.

And yes MZero, I didn't refresh before posting that, so no need to repeat yourself, lol.

MZero posted...

Isquen and I can't date today so this just guarantees Ulti survives

All the more reason to include Sultan :)

Your plan is trying to make scum not pair today, to force them to pair tomorrow, right? Let's say Final 3 is Isquen/MZero/UIti, and scum is Isquen/MZero and they date to lynch Ulti. We lynch one of the two scum tomorrow and we've avoided MYLO.

Or only one of the three is scum, let's say it's MZero. Ulti dies today, and MZero dated town, so your plan to try and force the date between scum tomorrow still holds.

Isn't this basically the same result as your plan? What am I missing?

New plan FD, we go back to the old plan. Have the town confident group of Dumey/Kirby/JC/FD date within each other. Let Chris shelter Sultan as his veto. Let Isquen/MZero/Ulti duke it out for themselves.

No fancy attempt at delaying MYLO. Just playing the game standard, the way we should have been playing it the first three days.

Don't reject this immediately just because it's not the cool idea you came up with. Honestly think about how this plays out over the next day or two, and tell me if you think it looks okay still. If we can't get people to agree to your Plan tm then we should have a backup plan rather than steering at the last second.

Ulti get Isquen to extend a date, and I'll join your plan. That's your mission now. Good luck.

What do you think Isquen, are you lining up for Plan Ulti? Ready to extend a date to me?

Forceful_Dragon posted...

I'm listening.

I don't see how it could be because it should work regardless of which of the 4 of them is lynched today.

Unless you mean rigged against scum. In which case yes, it's designed to be.

No, it's rigged in the sense that I am Isquen's #1 scumspect, and he's not going to date me. So I die by default instead of one of your preferred lynch pool.

UltimaterializerX posted...

No one named you. Everyone named Sultan and Isquen.

In mafia, one player everyone thinks is scum usually is. And I dont think its Sultan, so.

Theres also usually one player going unnoticed thats scum. I actually thought it was FD until recently, but its probably you. Maybe Kirby.

YES BECAUSE EVERYONE EXCEPT ISQUEN READ THE END OF DAY 3. I usually don't like to do this thing where I insist I am town because of play, but jesus christ, I was practically begging Lopen to let me die.

If you and Chris want to veto Sultan, then whatever. But your plan makes absolutely no sense.

UltimaterializerX posted...

Ignoring feelings and trying to collaborate better as a player. My reads this game suck, and at a certain point you get tired of losing and just listen to better people. That and I feel scum would be less likely to answer my request. Chris might be asleep or whatever, but there was no reason for Dumey not to participate.

Three reasons:

1. Video game after work with friends.
2. I literally compiled a list of PoEs earlier today and have been incredibly vocal about my PoE, so all you had to do was read.
3. Damn, not cooperating = scum? I guess scum is Ulti/Chris guys. Wrap it up.

Forceful_Dragon posted...

Okay then we should be set to pair off to create the final 3 where Dumey picks between Isquen and Ulti

It's not happening. It's a rigged game from the start.

wow.

I already had low expectations, and somehow Ulti still disappointed them.

UltimaterializerX posted...

The logic puzzle adds up to Sultan town, Isquen + Dumey scum. Every single player other than Chris named Sultan, which means both scum also named him should he be town.

You realize there's only two scum left, right? So if Sultan is scum, that means there's only one person there potentially bussing him because of all the suspicion he's gotten, or he's paired with someone like you who has flip flopped back and forth on him and has no real convictions on him.

I don't even know how your "logic puzzle" spat out a pairing of me and Isquen. You didn't bother even attempting an explanation on that. But it is cute that you are advocating the one person that vehemently is opposed to me to be in the final three with me, therefore ensuring that the date doesn't happen. Great plan, Ulti. 5 stars.

You may have slightly mistaken me. I'm still pro-lynching MZero. I think him flipping scum is a huge win for us and gives us good info to work off of. I'm just more pro-other people first.

SirChris posted...

I'm not letting sultan die today tbh

SirChris posted...

Pick someone else

The stick won't work with Ulti, so I'm offering a carrot.

I don't think there's any super risky scum pairs there, other than maybe FD-Isquen if FD is pulling our leg hard.

Chris - Ulti
FD - Isquen
Dumey - MZero
JC - Kirby
Sultan

Ulti what do you think about this setup? Lynches your primary suspect, let's us set up the partners for tomorrow, to best play around an early MYLO. If Sultan is scum, then they have to kill Chris, otherwise they green check you. That's both of your primary scumspects dead, or Chris somehow still alive with you having a green check.

TheSultanOfSlam posted...

This was what I was looking for you to say and wanted to discusses this with you and you attacked me.

Can we agree we both kinda come in hot when we both could have just asked more clearly?

I hope you know that I have absolutely nothing against you personally. It's all just playing the game here. You have dragged me away from my work a little longer than I probably should be though, tbqh. >_>

UltimaterializerX posted...

Dumey.

Give me a flavor paraphrase.

Uhhhh sure.

Charlotte Regan from the book Alone With You in the Ether. Chang basically said he liked the book and had some personal attachments to the relationship the main characters had in it. I've never read it so I can't judge him for his taste one way or the other. :)

TheSultanOfSlam posted...

This might be the newest one I've ever seen.

Trying to build conversion makes me scum.

You didn't say, "Hey Dumey, I have these thoughts about Kirby. What do you think about this?" You said, "GUYS KIRBY IS SCUM. WHY IS NO ONE LOOKING AT KIRBY. DONT YOU GUYS TRUST LOPEN? I AM GOING TO DATE MZERO AND HOLD THIS GAME HOSTAGE BECAUSE THE GAME IS TOO QUIET AND IT MUST BE BECAUSE SCUM"

*I might be hyperbolizing a teensy bit but you get the picture.

No I think Isquen was saying I was doing theater because he thinks I'm scum lol. My reply was just being snarky.

Isquen posted...

Theater.

I agree. Sultan is acting like things are slower than they actually are, despite everyone in the game having contributions today. Kinda strange, don't you think?

FD is not town cleared, and I have been vocal multiple times about the possibility of Kirby/Ulti. But you don't seem to understand the concept of prioritization, or working through suspects from most likely to least. The only two people I haven't been suspicious of are the confirmed prosty Chris and JC who I also think has strong end of day reasons that make him incredibly towny.

Before you started all of this, I was starting to think of suggestions for pairups, that would involve having Ulti and Isquen split so we could have Ulti-Chris date as long as we guarantee that we won't lynch Isquen today. That was going to also involve probably lynching MZero. I was literally starting to talk myself into it as the best path forward. Now I just want to lynch Sultan again, lol. Speaking of motivations, what is the motivation of trying to stir up panic and saying scum is too comfortable right now, when there's only what, 1 single pair on the board at the moment? Seems like you were seeing the writing on the wall and didn't like the direction it was heading, Sultan.

I probably have the widest PoE in the game. But all you're doing is wanting to make me narrow it on you again.

It's very funny to me that Lopen asked how I would play the game if he saved me and I pretty much responded that exactly this would happen.

God I hope Sultan is just scum trying to distract me.

TheSultanOfSlam posted...

honestly it's not great when people are juat going to slide though the cracks and get off scott free.

LIKE YOU, YOU MEAN?

Sultan. Read the damn game. People break up and change things ALL the time! We can talk to Isquen and Ulti to convince them to break up, but we have to build a compelling case to do so! We have 48 hours for a reason, to explore in different directions! You are projecting your fantasy on the game, when 7/9 players have been ACTIVELY participating today! You are panicking because it's slow in the middle of a weekday. We get through the entire night and it never picks up again, then sure let's talk about it. Until then, if you want to pursue Kirby. Then post arguments about Kirby. Don't just ride on Lopen's coattails. Trying to evoke Lopens name when he spent the last portion of the day claiming Corrik was scum isn't going to do you any favors unless you can clearly communicate the actual arguments.

Because of how he's acted in and around end of day situations. Always willing to put himself at risk. Even tilted out if his mind D2, still saved the cop he was tilted at because he knew it was the right thing to do. Kirby was not in every final 3 because he's incapable of finding a date. He's there because he was playing his vanilla role properly and putting himself at risk to pressure claims. Not something that you can say for yourself, can you?

I HAVE considered Kirby. I think there is a world where exactly Kirby/Ulti makes sense as the scum team. I'd like yo test Ulti for that theory, but he's made himself quite unavailable, and I'm not willing to lynch Kirby on a 1/9 situation when he doesn't really make sense as scum with any other partner to me.

MZero already said he won't date you Sultan. And if you did do try and force the lynch to be outside of our four primary PoE players, I would lose all charitability, stop looking anywhere else, and truly only tunnel you. You KNOW it's a bad play to do it, so you only serve to lose more credibility.

It's quiet because we killed Lopen and it's 2PM EST on a work day. That's it. And actually look at the amount of players providing thoughts through the day. Outside of Chris and JC, we have a pretty high participation rate across everyone.

I don't know if you're panicking or what, but the ideas you've sprouted about me trying to control the thread before, and now that the game is too slow, feel like you're just lashing out wherever you can.

Kind of mulling it over in my head at work. I feel fairly confident in saying MZero isn't scum with Sultan or Ulti.

MZero has four notable things this game in my memory.

1. Got targeted a little D1 for no real reason. Just a little pressure from Ulti and Chris, but it made me lean town on him at the time.
2. Continued conversation about playing around his schedule.
3. He pushed Sultan for inconsistency
4. He pushed Ulti for inconsistency.

It seems like today we can test one side of this or the other. If we lynch MZero and he's scum, I would confidently push back Sultan and Ulti as targeted Townies and look for another answer. Sultan and Ulti are on everyone's PoE, and are exactly who I would expect Scum to push if they were looking for a mislynch. Or we lynch Sultan, as we have been trying to for days now, with almost everyone in the game pointing shifty eyes at him. And if he comes up scum, I'd be willing to give MZero a pass to look elsewhere.

What do you guys think? Do you see MZero as scum and bussing his partner here as one of his two primary lynch candidates? Or has his play been consistent enough from the start that it looks like they are opposite alignments?

Honestly while this format is cool and I wouldn't mind seeing it return, I think I prefer pushing for votes.

Forceful_Dragon posted...

And his motivations have felt sus from day 1.

Taking a free date with red and holding it forever.

Trying to do the same day 2 with Isquen.

Trying to do the same day 3 with Kirby/Sultan.

Trying to do the same day 4 with Isquen (again).

The ONLY thing he has going for him in terms of seeming more town motivated was putting the power in your hands to kill him day 2. But that can be explained as a risk taken by an already outnumbered scum team OR just a hard read that you would never actually drop him to save a Lea who was not showing much willingness to live and play on.

You take away that gambit and what does ulti have going for him?

Ulti with an outspoken appreciation for the power to effectively veto a lynch.

I'm not endorsing his decision making. I am just trying to separate whether his actions are actually alignment indicative.

He said it himself that his plan to save Isquen D2 was set up from before the game even began. Before the game even began, Ulti was already showing interest in abusing this games mechanics. Give a man the ultimate power to disrupt a lynch, and he does it.

Ulti disrespects D1 a lot on principle. I entered the game thinking Red, Ulti, and Corrik all might do exactly what Red did.

D2 Ulti was denied his Isquen love angle, and opted to do something fun with me instead.

D3 and D4 he has stubbornly announced his intent to protect people he thinks is town. And if he's doing it to scum, he's bad. But I kind of think Ulti could just see it as using the format's mechanics in a way that other players aren't willing to. Hard staking players based on his soul reads.

That is where the inconsistencies of him flip flopping on Sultan so much are more damning, by the way. Announcing that Sultan is hard off the table D3 when we clearly see he never really held that conviction.

I'm not really intending to do a hard defense of Ulti here (though that's certainly what it looks like), but I do want to examine the MZero/Ulti interaction like this because I COULD see town Ulti motivations in these actions.

Hmm.

MZero, in the forever war of Ulti accusing people of always going after him as scum, you've said in the past that you have a pretty successful record going after him, right?

Can you point me to a game where you successfully caught him on inconsistencies like this?

For full transparency, my perception of Ulti is that you can't really catch him on inconsistent logic, but instead on his motivations. Going to be honest and say I feel like I can easily see stubborn town Ulti motivations for a lot of his actions this game, and wondering if you driving into him is scummy.

To be fair, you also pressured Sultan on his inconsistencies in a similar way. I just wonder if your history with Ulti supports this as town MZero versus Scum Ulti.

Sultan you snakin'??

UltimaterializerX posted...

Yes Im trusting town to make the right play and hit scum. I feel Ive laid out a pretty solid case on 2 people.

If you have easy mislynches out there in this format, its too easy for scum to control the lynch. This forces THEM to panic late. Its why I think MZero + Kirby and Chris + Dumey would be good pairs. That removes everyone other than my PoE. I think 2 scum are in Justin/Sultan/FD and theyd be forced to pair up, then we just kill them both tomorrow.

If you're still entertaining triple kills, especially when they're on targets where you are the ONLY one that thinks they're scum, then your strategy is truly galaxy brained. It's so short sighted and you're not thinking practically about what's going to happen tomorrow.

You're partly right that the goal of this right now is to force scum to panic and pair up. Look in the mirror to see what that might look like.

TheSultanOfSlam posted...

Lol what are your thoughts right now after isquen and Ulti both panicked and paired?

I don't really know how to convince Isquen to go back and read the end of D3 and see how ready I was to die. I practically begged Lopen to let it end because I wasn't going to be better than him at solving. So I'm going to treat Isquen the same way I do Lopen, solve around him and hope he comes around eventually.

I don't know if Isquen was actually OMGUSing Chris there or just kind of joking. His first reply to Chris was obviously in good humor. But I'm not sure if he actually thinks Chris is scummy for advocating to lynch him.

Ulti if you and Isquen are both town, trying to protect him here could actually backfire on you tremendously because you're basically guaranteeing we shoot into the two of you tomorrow if we miss on the other PoE. You are betting everything on today.

EDumey posted...

we can start pairing up and seeing who flinches first.

You know I was expecting that to take longer.