Lurker > COVxy

P4wn4g3 posted...

Ah so I'm saying researchers don't know what they are doing.

You didn't read the OP study, but immediately went to "here are these confounds I'm assuming they don't understand".

Am I supposed to make a conclusion other than you think that the researchers are incompetent?
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P4wn4g3 posted...

Feel like enlightening me on what my position is since you seem to be feeling particularly snarky

Why don't you tell me?

Why did you jump immediately to "researchers don't know what they are doing"?
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P4wn4g3 posted...

COVxy posted...

But the real question is what cultural issues surround the factors that lead to a gap, and whether those cultural issues place women at a disadvantage.

The real question is whether there is actually any statistically meaningful data and where that comes from. You have to find the data before hypothesizing why it's there. Simply collecting that ki d of data is a rather large task. For example did the Harvard study equally poll those in exempt/non exempt positions? What about benefits? Then there is the question of studying varied population centers, including rural areas and larger or more diverse areas.

Clearly the people doing this research wouldn't have thought of such complex issues with data collection and interpretation, therefore you don't even need to read through the literature. Just assume they haven't done a good job and we don't know so that you can maintain your current position.
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It's pretty clear from the literature that the gender wage gap comes from somewhere. Nobody seriously thinks that women are simply paid less. But the real question is what cultural issues surround the factors that lead to a gap, and whether those cultural issues place women at a disadvantage.
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monkmith posted...

the debate is necessary because a large number of people support a party that is currently in power that hold the opinion that climate change is overblown/a liberal lie/chinese scam...

sticking your head in the sand and ignoring the fact that half the voting power in the country currently believes its all a lie does absolutely nothing.

Debate about political points doesn't work the way you think it does. It often polarizes people more!
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catboy0_0 posted...

COVxy posted...

catboy0_0 posted...

Antifar posted...

catboy0_0 posted...

so? put them on TV and dissect why they are wrong

How's that working out so far?

they're not really putting in the effort with that, they just throw it out there and go "lol this guy is so wrong! haha!"

Literally decades of work showing that your intuition about human psychology isn't quite right.

so most people are fucking stupid and don't care about the truth but what makes them feel like "their team" is "winning"?

No, that's not what I implied lol.
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catboy0_0 posted...

Antifar posted...

catboy0_0 posted...

so? put them on TV and dissect why they are wrong

How's that working out so far?

they're not really putting in the effort with that, they just throw it out there and go "lol this guy is so wrong! haha!"

Literally decades of work showing that your intuition about human psychology isn't quite right.
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Steve Nick posted...

In the bolded, you say that you think people will believe the expert more.

Oh, i certainly didn't say that.
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Steve Nick posted...

But you're not treating their view as legitimate. You're arguing against their belief.

You're not legitimizing their belief. You're just allowing them to speak.

Decades of findings from psychology demonstrate that "equal debate" often just pushes people further into their camp, even if they're position is demonstrated to be silly.

The whole "just let people have a voice and then people will see how dumb it is" completely ignores decades of results from the field.
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Steve Nick posted...

COVxy posted...

Steve Nick posted...

No, you are wrong. At least 20% of people outright don't believe in it, maybe more. I also know tons upon tons of real people that don't believe in climate change.

No in those whose opinion matters, as in scientists.

Why do you get to decide for everyone whose opinion should matter?

The scientist opinion gets reported on. Let people decide who they believe.

I don't. But I think it's generally the case that people believe that an expert's opinion matters a whole lot more than an uninformed opinion, especially one which often has substantial ties to companies whose profit is on the line.

Would you get your second opinion on a diagnosis from a plumber?

"My doctor said I have brain cancer, but my plumber said that his grandma had it and I don't seem like his grandma, so I'm going to play it safe and not act here. It's a lot of money to get cancer treatment, and we're not even sure I have it!"
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Steve Nick posted...

No, you are wrong. At least 20% of people outright don't believe in it, maybe more. I also know tons upon tons of real people that don't believe in climate change.

No in those whose opinion matters, as in scientists.
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Steve Nick posted...

It's not the same thing as with CC. CC has split opinions.

No it doesn't. You only think that because the media over-represents the "other side" and provides them a platform that makes it seem like they have a legitimate and nonbiased viewpoint.
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P4wn4g3 posted...

It would be. When my teacher was caught acting like I was making shit up at my school in the teacher's lounge we had a meeting with the principal and basically his career was in my hands. We opted not to be that harsh. Again, this could be the same kind of situation and probably is. This system specifically protects against people falsely claiming to have shit they don't and adding unnecessary prejudice into the mix. You aren't going to find a perfect system to simply protect everybody from harm ever.

Typically IEPs are for students with special needs. In most circumstances, kids with IEPs are segretated from the rest of the school in special needs classes, less often it's the case that there are mixed IEP nonIEP classes. So no, it doesn't seem like the appropriate place with regards to just having people refer to the kid by their identified gender. Unless you believe that this necessarily indicates more substantial issues.
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Psychotic disorders do not respond well to talk therapy. Drug therapy, on the other hand...

And you were definitely provided the latter.
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YookaLaylee posted...

K. So tell me what I should know

That there's sufficiently strong causal evidence (in nonhuman animals) and correlational evidence (in humans) to suggest biological mechanisms of sexual dimorphism in the brain, how it's organized early in development where it is easily perturbed and relatively stable thereafter. In other words, there's a very strong biological basis for literally having a brain like the opposite sex, while no such basis exists for identification as a sith lord or an animal or an inanimate object.
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YookaLaylee posted...

I mean, if youre born with a vagina and you have a vagina, its pretty silly for you to ask me to call you a man. Id comply with what you wanted, but its equally silly as asking me to pretend youre a sith lord.

It's equally silly if you are completely ignorant on the issue, yes. It's pretty clear people have no idea what they are talking about when they make comparisons like this.
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P4wn4g3 posted...

Their identification issues would be covered by an IEP.

Since when? I don't think any understanding of IEPs has led me to believe that this would be an appropriate use of them.
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P4wn4g3 posted...

No shit, if we are going by the ages old social constructs that are in place. If I had an IEP requiring staff to call me a girl, it would be offensive if they called me a boy. How is this not reaching you?

Consider for a moment that those who are transpeople have the same perception of gender and insecurity regarding their gendered qualities, and that calling them by their nonidentified gender would hurt as much as it would hurt you. That doesn't go away if there is an IEP, and it's super unclear whether this is even appropriate for an IEP.
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P4wn4g3 posted...

COVxy posted...

Exactly the point.

No, you're intentionally missing the point. And I know you're smart enough to get it so I have to assume you're being obtuse at this point. It's only considered "abuse" if you're treating someone normally who otherwise has an IEP in place saying they have special needs.

Jesus dude, find something better to shitpost about.

If a teacher were to constantly refer to you as a girl, would that not be emotionally abusive?
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P4wn4g3 posted...

Emotional abuse isn't allowed.

Exactly the point. It's simply your unwillingness to consider another point of view that doesn't allow you to see that misgendering someone or explicitly putting them in a class outside their identified gender is exactly the same thing.

The issue here isn't constitutional rights. It's empathy beyond a dogma.
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darkphoenix181 posted...

What is an iep?

Independent education protocol, I believe. It's a personalized education protocol for kids with special needs.
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P4wn4g3 posted...

A_Good_Boy posted...

The students right to express herself?

Students don't have the same rights as everyone else, as per agreements made by parents who put them into schools.

No, obviously it's a violation of the entire staff's constitutional rights.

Do you think a teacher should be fired if they verbally degrade their students? Like calling them stupid little asswipes and stuff?
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P4wn4g3 posted...

COVxy posted...

P4wn4g3 posted...

COVxy posted...

Why have all the posts in this topic neglected to pay attention to:

When discussing the incident with administrators, Vlaming made it clear he would not use male pronouns, a stance that led to his suspension referral for disciplinary action

Vlamings attorney, Shawn Voyles, says his client offered to use the students name and to avoid feminine pronouns, but Voyles says the school was unwilling to accept the compromise.

It seems like nothing would have happened if he didn't take a hard stance about misgendering.

kind of useless to be talking about hypotheticals though.

I mean, not really. I can run in front of a car and then complain when I get hit. But the other person is perfectly fair to tell me that I wouldn't have gotten hit if I didn't run right in front of it.

but you did and if you were jaywalking you can be charged for it, too bad so sad. see how that works

I don't see how that's a response to my point.

I think it's perfectly fine to comment when someone gets themselves into a pile of shit from an incident that would have gone past unnoticed because they are too much of a personal diva to consider someone else's feelings.
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P4wn4g3 posted...

COVxy posted...

Why have all the posts in this topic neglected to pay attention to:

When discussing the incident with administrators, Vlaming made it clear he would not use male pronouns, a stance that led to his suspension referral for disciplinary action

Vlamings attorney, Shawn Voyles, says his client offered to use the students name and to avoid feminine pronouns, but Voyles says the school was unwilling to accept the compromise.

It seems like nothing would have happened if he didn't take a hard stance about misgendering.

kind of useless to be talking about hypotheticals though.

I mean, not really. I can run in front of a car and then complain when I get hit. But the other person is perfectly fair to tell me that I wouldn't have gotten hit if I didn't run right in front of it.
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s0nicfan posted...

Whether you support the student or the teacher, can we stop pretending it isn't "compelled speech" yet?

In the same way that firing a teacher for constantly calling a male student a female or a female student a male is "compelled speech".
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Why have all the posts in this topic neglected to pay attention to:

When discussing the incident with administrators, Vlaming made it clear he would not use male pronouns, a stance that led to his suspension referral for disciplinary action

Vlamings attorney, Shawn Voyles, says his client offered to use the students name and to avoid feminine pronouns, but Voyles says the school was unwilling to accept the compromise.

It seems like nothing would have happened if he didn't take a hard stance about misgendering.
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P4wn4g3 posted...

How do you think their outlook is different?

They tend to ask very different questions, and so place different levels of importance on different things. Simplified, engineers typically have a product, and scientists typically don't. The goal in engineering is typically to make something happen, while the goal of science is typically to learn about something.

So different views on what's important to fund or to emphasize tend to fall naturally from this.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

I don't get why people rag on Bill Nye so much

Has he ever bragged about his credentials? I've never heard him do so.

He just wants to promote and teach science for kids. He's never claimed to be a heavyweight expert leading the charge in dramatic breakthroughs.

Tbf, engineers usually have a very different outlook on science than scientists do. It's strange to have an engineer as a spokesperson for the scientific enterprise.
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Never had a particularly high opinion of him (because I think he represents a big portion of what is wrong about science communication), though he was pretty down to earth when he visited my uni.

Idk, the relatively innocuous stories in combination with the clearly partisan intial reporting has me hesitant.
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BLAKUboy posted...

twitterfriends posted...

This man has access to nuclear codes lmao

It's okay, he'd typo the codes if he ever tried to put them in.

Idk, doesn't seem like he typos that often, just mostly misspellings. Now if the nuke codes were a pass phrase, then he might be incapable.
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PresidentZaphod posted...

COVxy posted...

PresidentZaphod posted...

creativerealms posted...

Where did you come up with your ideas about Hillary?

I listened

To internet memes?

To Hillary. I was a Bernie supporter so I knew how fucking evil Hillary is

Half of the misinformation about Hillary was shared around by Bernie supporters lol
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PresidentZaphod posted...

creativerealms posted...

Where did you come up with your ideas about Hillary?

I listened

To internet memes?
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Guide posted...

FF9 hit some kind of sweet spot of cohesive worldbuilding and narrative that I haven't seen in another jrpg. Like, even just the clothes. The clothes make sense. How often can you say that about a JRPG?

I seem to remember a character who wears a partial suit of armor through the entire game.
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RoboLaserGandhi posted...

Okay well space travel came in the '60s soooo...

To be fair, I think so did current day AI lol.
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I mean, this was like half the premise to FFVIII. And not even the part people thought was stupid.

I want to see it because it reminds me a lot of Howl's Moving Castle.

You people are too uptight lol.
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Coastal_elite posted...

That'd doesn't directly contradict what I said. You just added more detail.

At no point will anyone tell you "here's this dissertation project, do it and write it up!"

The only time where this is KINDA what happens is when the PI is incredibly new, and has to establish a research trajectory to secure grants and tenure, then they tend to be more hands on because your work directly links to their imminent success, which is what Darkman encountered.

The PhD process involves a lot of independent learning and guiding of the research process, some PIs this is more true than others, but nobody is really directly teaching you much during the PhD.

Your description of both the PI interactions and the committee experience is one that neither I nor anyone I've ever worked with has experienced. There are various bad experiences, but almost none of them mirror what you describe.
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Coastal_elite posted...

COVxy posted...

This is absolutely the least accurate depiction of the process I've ever read.

Why do people just talk out of their ass?

I love how people like you don't give any information when requested but then criticize when others do. Then go and reply to TC's questions instead of attacking me for doing so.

I mean, I just don't understand why you would respond at all if you were just in the dark and guessing?

For science PhD programs in the US, the first few years vary a lot depending on a few factors.

The major factor is whether or not the program has rotations, where you rotate into working in different labs temporarily for the first year, before settling into a position that works both best for you and the corresponding PI (principal investigator). If it doesn't have rotations, you start off working in your lab, and typically you have interviewed specifically for that lab rather than the program.

The second factor is course load, which differs depending on the program and university. On average, there's 1-2 years of courses that are required. These classes are usually taught A-B-Fail, and usually the advice given to you is to do the least amount of work possible for them. Your focus should always be on the research. Classwork is secondary.

After that, the experience is usually very similar across programs, as similar as research is across different disciplines. At the end of your programs courseload, you typically have some sort of comprehensive exam that allows you to advance from a PhD student to a PhD candidate, which essentially means you can start working towards your dissertation work. This means preparing a dissertation proposal which you present to a committee and they either approve or request modifications for. Then you do your dissertation research, which is usually a series of experiments meant to get at some central question, though this has evolved to be more practical in a lot of departments, and they accept less cohesive work, essentially allowing students to package together their publications with maybe an experiment or two extra to tie them together.

Then you write your dissertation, and send it to your committee, who then agrees to meet, when you defend and they decide a pass/fail. Typically, failing is very unusual because there are many gates prior to the defense that prevent you from going forward unless you are going to pass.
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Coastal_elite posted...

Sunhawk posted...

Wow, that really hurt. And I'm not thinking about taking a PhD.

I should've also asked, how does the dissertation work?

-They present you a series of topics you could do your dissertation on and you choose one.

-You research the fuck out of it and write your dissertation.

-You meet up with your academic adviser periodically so he can tell you that your dissertation is shit and you need to change everything because he is having a power trip and this is the one bright spot of his miserable existence.

-You finish your dissertation years later and now you have to "defend it" in person in front of a bunch of angry academics trying to poke holes in it in front of everyone.

- Your dissertation is archived and nobody will read it. You're now a PhD, which means you get to call yourself doctor and you have a lot of debt. Congrats! You can now be a teaching assistant.

This is absolutely the least accurate depiction of the process I've ever read.

Why do people just talk out of their ass?
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Jordan Peterson most certainly is playing to his audience, though the main reason for this perception is the alt-right's clear support of him in lieu of any other authority figure.
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Holy hell, I couldn't make it past the subtitle.
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I've been told by a friend who's a resident that zinc is the only thing that helps a cold, but idk how reliable that information is.
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Le___seul_dieu_ posted...

COVxy posted...

Let's not pretend she's human anyway. She's an adjunct.

the fuck

It's a joke about how poorly adjuncts are treated lol.
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Let's not pretend she's human anyway. She's an adjunct.
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Psychology
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Tbh, these stories seem melodramatic.
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spudger posted...

i enjoy him when he stays in his lane of psychology

When he talks about "psychology" to the public, he is talking outside his expertise, and is very often far removed from actual psychology.
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ssjevot posted...

That's really all you need. Pop-sci books almost always push a one-sided agenda because they do not need peer review and a simple story sells better to the masses. So many so called experts selling biased garbage to either make money, push an agenda, or both.

I can think of a couple of popsci books that are pretty good easy disceminations of the field the author works in.
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Because he's the person the alt-right pushed as their intellectual spokesperson because they have no other academics and want to combat the 'authority' of the otherside. Everything he says is just to steal money from them, which is pretty morally gross.
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