Lurker > Leafeon13N

Trading for red xiii auto

Red xiii

colliding posted...

Sounds like a problem on your end man

Others have confirmed having the issue.

Happens to me on phone and pc, Firefox and Chrome.

The post message box took almost a full minute to load.

Steve sucks.

Delita

Trading for red xiii auto

Red xiii

Delita

TheArkOfTurus posted...

Trading for Delita, auto

For red xiii

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Red xiii

Forceful_Dragon posted...

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/09/trump-secretly-mocks-his-christian-supporters/616522/

Will this finally be enough for Christians to realize that Trump is not the religious leader that they think he is?

They didn't abandon ship when he gassed his own people for a church photo op. Not holding my breath.

Larry Koopa

linkhatesganon posted...

Auto for Tifa

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Red xiii

Vaan

Celes

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Trading for red xiii auto

99.9%.

Taking 0.1% odds covid spreads through the Senate.

Red xiii

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Stop trying to make this about anything other than the police union itself.

The police are bad, yes. You are attributing this to aspects of the union that apply to other unions. I will not support such rhetoric.

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Teachers are not murdering people and then get to take a vacation and a small fine at worst from it. Police are. This is the difference

And this isnt going to change without changing the law and fundamentally changing the system.

But if you take dangerous anti union talk that can rightfully be applied to other unions, your argument isn't going to hold any water.

The fact you don't give a shit because the stakes are higher is not a valid argument.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Hey red, how do you feel about things like local labor unions (union unions?) expelling police unions from membership and pressuring national groups like AFL-CIO to do the same?

Again, fuck current police union structure. It's basically police entering into a CBA with themselves.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

I think the question here is if police get any specific legal benefit from being a union versus, say, forming a PAC to do the same lobbying. I'm sure they do (and unions definitely have better PR than PACs), but I don't know what they are.

I'm not going to stand by or research this by any means, but considering how scummy and under the table PACs can be, I'd wager they are slightly more transparent. If I had to bet on it, anyway.

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

So then you don't support police unions being around. Perfect. Glad we can agree on this red.

You apparently don't support teachers unions being around because the funding comes from taxpayers.

Which they then use to lobby and instill into political campaigns.

Again, it's a big issue of you needing to be careful with your rhetoric because some things you seem to be against apply to far more than police unions.

(my own union has been recruiting people to make robocalls recently).

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Are you in favor of a union that ensures no accountability for a group of people meant to protect the people that pay for it?

No but taxpayer funding has nothing to do with this.

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

And the police get their wages paid for by taxpayers.

Are you also for abolishing teachers unions?

Unless you have something already setup when you abolish the current union, the way things are setup now, the system will just rebuild to the status quo.

We can't just go from A to B is my point.

If you abolish the union but have nothing else in place, the system isn't going to change.

Hell the fact police don't think they aren't workers like everyone else is part of the problem.

UshiromiyaEva posted...

Police aren't workers.

Yes they are.

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Once police accountability is put in place, you can introduce police unions again. But they simply won't allow for actual change to happen until they are entirely out of the picture

I'm literally for this.

When did I say protect them?

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

You say that discussing getting rid of the police union isn't worth talking about and maintain that discussing creating an oversight committee is valid.

But you can't discuss the thing you want to discuss without also discussing what needs to happen before it's possible.

No, we've gotten to this point in the argument before. You end up arguing that you think police, even reformed, should have no right to unionize. This is where we disagree.

StealThisSheen posted...

Well, don't worry. As long as people like you are around, the police's right to fucking murder people and get away with it will never be taken away, so pop that champagne. Yaaaay unions!

I'm literally on your side here. This is why we can't have nice things.

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

I enjoy red saying get rid of the police union is a non-starter, but creating an oversight group to keep police accountable, something that can never happen with police unions around, is more acceptable to discuss.

What?

I've told you my opinion. I don't approve of taking away workers right to unionize but do not approve of police unions in their current form.

VintageGin posted...

True reform can only happen when no one talks about it?

No, you have to frame it for the public. You still have to market your ideas to the public. If you make something a slogan, it better be easy to understand and not something that can easily be misconstrued.

The defund slogan ended up getting turned as a weapon against the cause real fast. And the court of public opinion is still the most important venue.

StealThisSheen posted...

Common interest means jack shit, though. That's why unions exist in the first place, because people being banded together in common interest can't actually get anything done without the unions that protect them. That's why unions are good when it's to protect the best interest of workers from management, but why it's bad when the police have no such need and just use it for endless bargaining power.

I'm going to reiterate here, I want to at the heart of everything, union or no union, create some sort of independent management system for the police.

Because right now, union, no union, there isn't anyone in power with a vested interest in police accountability.

StealThisSheen posted...

.......

Do you not agree?

StealThisSheen posted...

But having a union is what gives them power. Without that union, they're just a bunch of people with no actual protections.

Prosecutors protect police because they are beholden to police to do their job.

StealThisSheen posted...

Red's trolling at this point

Nah, I dislike rhetoric that is a dead in the water argument in the court of public opinion.

It would be worse for the cause than defund the police.

Defund the police is functionally correct, but it also created a boogeyman in the way of enacting real change.

(true reform would have defunded the police without needing to make it a rallying cry).

StealThisSheen posted...

The argument is that while the police union is in place, they have the power to push back against any attempt to actually give them oversight and accountability. Anything you try outside of literally getting rid of the police isn't going to make a dent because the union will just fight it. Getting rid of the union is an insanely integral part in actually being able to enact the change that needs to be made.

The people above the police will fight it too, they do whatever they can for police support.

The entire system around policing in this country is beholden to each other to an extent that the laws themselves create this problem, again, union or no union.

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

red, repeat these words:

"The police union makes it nearly impossible for people to change laws and rules concerning police accountability."

Just say the words and you understand it.

But unless you make a law preventing police from engaging in politics this isn't going to change how the system works right now either.

Again, I am of the opinion we cannot have any real change until we have some form of real oversight for the police.

None of this exists in the slightest, union, no union, doesn't matter. And unless there is laws enacted to change fundamentally how our system works you can do whatever you want to the police union and it won't mean shit.

StealThisSheen posted...

Why are you so hell bent on defending a union that is literally DESIGNED to fuck you over, kill you, fuck your corpse, and then make sure it gets away with it?

When did I defend them?

StealThisSheen posted...

Yes, but then you can actually deal with the weeds and not just have them grow back as quickly as you cut them down. That's literally the point. The union is specifically making it near impossible to do anything about the weeds.

The root is still the actual laws though. If you pluck the union the system is still there.