Lurker > Leafeon13N

Mr Lasastryke posted...

of course. trump is a symptom, not the disease.

the fact that trump was able to become president in the first place is because people in general - not just americans - suck.

Not going to disagree with American ism being a disease but the RNC has me rethinking just how small of a symptom Trump is to the Republican party.

Pretty much every speaker was either a Trump or an extreme Trump loyalist.

Where the hell do they go if Trump loses?

They are a party that displayed no future beyond Trump. They are pretty much shattered if he loses because they have thrown all their eggs in one basket.

Krystal

February very much had the looming threat of the virus hanging over our heads.

Got to go back to January where the hope was this was another Sars that wouldn't reach much out of China.

Moonroof posted...

I reckon itll go up over time, especially once it wins the California court case, whenever that happens.

They are probably going to lose.

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

My guy, you need to understand that theyre not the same thing.

See the first sentence of the statement you literally quoted.

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

In reality, you'd understand that police unions will be fighting tooth and nail and spend a ridiculous amount of taxpayer money to support people who support no accountability for police officers and are largely a part of keeping reform from happening at all.

Again, we're talking a hypothetical where this system has been reformed.

StealThisSheen posted...

Oh good lord

Keep in mind we were talking pure hypothetical system where we completely overhauled everything.

In reality, we haven't even taken baby steps to reform.

StealThisSheen posted...

This isn't fully true. With a union, they're able to abuse "union rights" and never have to allow proper oversight or punishments.

Again the goal should be to set up a system where this isn't true.

If you still disagree, you are getting into dangerous territory where that statement could be applied to all unions.

PerfectChaosZ posted...

Unions are to protect the worker from the boss, in a police union there is no boss to protect the worker from. The union is police, the cops are cops, the bosses are cops. Theyre on one side. I guess the boss in this case would be the public and the citizens.

This is why the system needs an overhaul. Union or no union police are bossed by police.

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Even when you have this mystical oversight, they will fight for lesser punishments, they will fight for the "right" people to be in charge, and they will push for police to strike any time they feel someone was unfairly punished to try pushing contracts back in their favor. It doesn't ever stop. They will continue to fight as much as they can.

So beat them in arbitration. That is there right as a union.

LordoftheMorons posted...

police unions are making it very hard to fire cops who are an actual threat to public safety.

My issue here is that we still run into the core problem that all the investigating is done by cops and people with a vested interest in being in good standing with those cops.

Union or not there is a systemic issue in the way.

I think you missed that my primary concern of spouting slogans like abolish the police union makes actually reforming the police difficult because attacking unions is a non starter for people.

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

to abolish

the police union

In current form, yes. But i am against infringing on their right to unionize.

StealThisSheen posted...

That's why equating a police union to other unions is incorrect.

I think the mistake people are making is assuming I am doing this. I do not approve of police unions in their current form.

Basically, in a world where we have actual independent oversight and accountability of the police, a police union could function as a more traditional union.

In the world we have now police are beholden to police who are investigated by police who are prosecuted by people that depend on working with the police.

This whole system needs to be redone.

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

. The protections of a Police Union arent to keep management from abusing the labor of police, it is specifically to protect police from interference or oversight of any kind.

We are not in disagreement here.

I want to change the system to where there is some form of oversight and pull against the police themselves.

Freya

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Oh then please explain how to retool it then.

Well, we need to reform our entire system of policing. You would likely need to completely renogiate union contracts around the systemic changes that we need to make. This is way beyond my own level of expertise.

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

I recommend reading why Police Unions ARE different than a traditional labor union.

Again, I am for complete retooling of this. Just a starter of "abolish police unions" is a no go for me.

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Police unions endorse and lobby for candidates, including prosecutors.

Police unions use that leverage to lobby for policies that benefit the police.

You are literally describing every union again.

And again these all fit my point.

There is no established pull to the unions push. It's not a union issue, it's an issue of having 0 accountability built into the system.

Pretending racism doesn't exist is extremely counterproductive to actually dealing with racism.

Vanille

He was actively breaking the law and had a weapon on him. The police should have been fearing for their lives and shot him.

Zidane

Sure, but it won't be because the issue is dead. But if you are going to turn off your supporters with dumb rhetoric it will lose in public discourse.

No, it really isn't.

And again, you are free to think otherwise but realize pushing such rhetoric makes your desires for police reform dead in the water.

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

The problem is after we reform union contracts, they will still be vehemently fighting to remove accountability from cops. They are a disaster.

They are a disaster in the current form because we have no independent oversight and no independent system of accountability . Again, you can change that while still having a police union.

And again, I'm against the current structuring of police unions, this is not the same was wanting to abolish the union entirely.

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Police unions will not allow accountability. And you said you demand accountability. Therefore, you are against the police unions.

No.

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Tell you what, red. Unlike you who can never provide actual proof backing up the nonsense you spew sometimes, I'll let you just voluntarily educate yourself with some light reading.

Yeah I think you are missing my stance here. Because we absolutely should be reforming police union contracts and funding. But if you are talking purely abolishing the union and make that your stance you are going to lose me and a lot of supporters for the cause.

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Because police unions fight to allow cops to go on unpunished whenever they step out of line. They fight for them to not be held accountable.

Because it isn't a union issue, it's a systematic issue. The union is there to assure equal treatment as well as an assortment of worker protections you likely are not aware of in the slightest.

Fix the system, don't attack the union.

You want to lose allies to the cause, then keep attacking the union. But when no one listens to you, don't be surprised.

Corrik7 posted...

They shouldn't be forced to possibly die themselves to satisfy you, red.

When did I ask for this?

I asked for accountability when they do fuck up.

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Fuck police unions. Give cops accountability

For the record rhetoric like this is dumb and going to do more harm to the cause than defund the police has already caused.

Red xiii

If the average person fucks up at their job and kills someone they get fired and go to jail.

If a cop fucks up at their job and kills someone they get paid time off.

Corrik7 posted...

I think only 19 states or something have applied so far.

A large majority of states have applied already.

I know California at least should be sending payments soon.

Red xiii

Krystal

Dancedreamer posted...

10% of dems? What, did they poll Mike Bloomberg and Tulsi Gabbard?

That is about in line with the amount of Democrats that identify as anti-maskers.

Red xiii

Zidane

Garnet

Uber could absolutely afford to make its California employees... Employees.

Red xii

Zidane

Red xiii

Despite best efforts to put fans just about everywhere it is still nearly 90 degrees inside.

"we'll send someone Thursday".

Great. Just great.

100 degree weather coming 5 days in a row.