Lurker > PrivateBiscuit1

Pirateking2000 posted...

For Joel I doubt he'd care to hear them out on their reasons (though he did let that one Firefly lady talk before offing her so who knows). Depending on the circumstances I think he'd just off the person who did the deed then retreat back into himself falling heavily back to how he was at the start of the game never trusting / getting that close to others again. However, at the very least, I think he would make damn sure of who he was after if he wasn't (probably capture them first and interrogate). That doesn't seem to be the case with Abby unless something else is revealed on her end. Right now it seems she went from zero to kill upon learning the guy's name was Joel and that's it.

I should clarify this too:

They're actively SEARCHING for Joels. They are here because they are trying to find a Joel that they know might be here. They have been searching for a Joel to murder for 7 years. So it's not that she is just going about her business and then happens to run into Joel, but they ran into each other like this because they came to this area to seek out a Joel they heard was in these parts.

She is trying to hunt down and murder him, full stop. But she couldn't just murder him right there because she still needed his help to survive, so she essentially used him and his good nature to help her get back to her people so they could all murder him like they wanted to for 7 years.

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Emeraldegg posted...

Oh sure, I don't disagree that he would be a psychopath should he do those things, but that's not really what I was asking. I was asking if his character traits would make him do what abby did in the first place were the roles reversed.

Either way, it sounds like the devs are trying to push the narrative that abby is somehow justified, when in reality it's quite plausible that joel and abby could BOTH be villains. Like, having one villain kill another doesn't really make the 2nd villain more sympathetic imo.

I think the thing here is that people don't know what they're capable until they're pushed to that point. As for Joel spending his life trying to hunt down them for seven years straight... I mean, I could see it being believable given what we know about him.

But Abby still had a giant support system with her group she's been with her whole life, currently lives in a place with electricity and air conditioning and a state of the art gym, while Joel would have his brother in his life and that small community where they eat squirrel and shit soup to survive.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

I agree with this, which is why Joel is a good character, but man as for the rest I have almost the complete opposite interpretation of that ending

So let me ask this then. This isn't a gotcha, but more just to see what you think. If the game stopped and let you decide between:

Joel going on a murder spree to save Ellie's life after they took her without consent to crack her head open for a cure, in which they've stated they've had zero success with despite trying countless times to use immune people for the cure

or

Joel letting Ellie die for a very slim chance of a cure being made, without Ellie's consent

What do you choose?

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I would say if Joel started killing random people and rampage against them to murder them, yes. He'd be a psychopath too. But you'd also have to contend with the fact that they killed a little girl too, which is pretty unconscionable in itself.

Also keep in mind they've been obsessively looking for Joel for seven years (I think?) now.

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But hey, you know what IS villainous?

Luring someone who just saved your life into a trap to murder them without context.

That's pretty fucking villainous. And that's also the secret main character in your story.

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Pirateking2000 posted...

Her father was one of the surgeons that was going to kill Ellie. Particularly the one you have no choice but to kill (there are three of them and you can ignore the other two). He stands there holding a scalpel up at Joel and refuses to move so...

If I remember right, he makes a move with the scalpel to harm Joel with it too. Also, he was black in the first game but now he's white. So that's weird too. Like he's so meaningless of a character that they're willing to just change his race because they thought nobody would remember, but he's not so meaningless because the entire game revolves around his death.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Wait is this really all this is about?

Based on the first game I adore Joel as a character but he is absolutely a reprehensible person and saying he's a villain is pretty accurate.

I disagree with that. He tried to do a lot of the right things, and he had a lot of humanity to him. The ending of the game is crafted in a way to make you feel like Joel is making the right decision to save Ellie and kill the Fireflies, who are billed as very nasty people overall throughout the game. It's only now, before this game is released, that they are trying to convince us that Joel was actually in the wrong for it, to the point of retconing things (such as Druckmann saying if they got to crack open Ellie's brain, they absolutely would have found the cure when the game states that these scientists suck and they've had no success).

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Yeah, they're extremely trusting of Abby and that is a little bit weird. There's also a bit of weirdness because it seems like a lot of the people in her group know Joel before he's introduced, so maybe they actually did have a picture of him? Or maybe some of the guys there personally recognized him from his rampage? Like Abby doesn't pull everyone aside and say "Hey, it's the guy we've wanted to kill!" I don't know. It felt extremely sloppy and rushed.

It goes they arrive > they walk into a room > Abby has a hushed conversation about how lucky she is to be alive > Tommy introduces him and Joel > Joel says they're looking at him like they know him > shotgun to knee

They took no time. Like, they couldn't have had Abby or the others ask leading questions to see if Joel really was the same Joel? Or see if he's really the vicious murderer they thought he was? They just... didn't explore this scene with any nuance at all. Just absolutely mindless violence.

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I need to explain this further.

Joel and Tommy go out of their way to save Abby's life, when they could have just left the area with the rampaging zombies. Joel personally kills the zombie about to end Abby's life. They go through a long sequence, fighting together and trying to come up with a plan of escape. Abby tells them to head to her friends' place, so that they can be tricked into being surrounded by people who hate Joel and they can all torture and kill him. After he personally saves her from death.

Tommy and Joel are completely unassuming about the whole thing before they shotgun Joel in the leg and then beat Tommy unconscious. Joel still has no idea why Abby and these people want to kill him. Completely oblivious, and he tries to understand why they want to kill him.

And later on when they do the surprise reveal that Joel killed Abby's father, I guess we're supposed to understand her side when we play as her? Like the whole thing is so twisted, and the fact that Druckmann says "Joel is actually a villain." Like fuck you he's the villain, he just saved Abby's life! She'd be DEAD right now if he didn't get involved!

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Pirateking2000 posted...

So wait, when you say she is going around looking for random Joels to murder, does she not know what he even looks like? Does she get confirmation or what is that about?

She's looking for someone named Joel. That's all she knows is that his name is Joel. No picture to a face or anything.

Abby is about to get her face ripped off by a zombie. She's completely helpless and Joel blows its head off and literally saves her life completely. Tommy, who is helping Joel save Abby in a big sequence, says his name when they're trying to escape and Abby believes this is the Joel she's looking for.

Having watched the video, it plays out that Abby is convinced this is the same Joel for literally no reason. She shotguns him in the knee and demands that she tell him who she is. Joel just looks absolutely baffled for a while, like he's actually thinking hard about who she could possibly be for like 10 seconds, before ultimately telling her to give him a speech and just kill him. She hits him in the head and knocks him out with the golf club and tells him that he doesn't get to rush this, and orders a tourniquet to be put on his knee.

Ellie hears his screams of anguish as he's literally being tortured later as she looks for him. And then Abby kills him after forcing Ellie to watch. Maybe when they flash back to show it from Abby's point of view, she tells him more about who she is?

But for right now, we played as a random person who kills Joel for no reason and we have no idea why. And we will continue to play as her later in the game, despite how sadistic she is in killing Joel without context.

Edit: Actually, after she shotguns him in the leg, she says his full name and he doesn't... deny it's him? I guess? But she still shotguns him in the leg without any confirmation that he's the same Joel.

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Just saw a re-upload on Youtube of the first three hours (skipped around a lot to the more important parts) and I can personally confirm all of this is true.

Absolutely insane that this is what happens. I can't imagine being in so much of a rush to kill the main character from the last game that you refuse to even give him any time to have a meaningful interaction with anyone. Not even the person who kills him.

I just can't wrap my head around this decision at all.

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I think it's more... companies provide people with review copies and value 10/10 scores for advertising, and if they get a negative review they are more than happy to revoke review copies. We have plenty of stories of game reviewers being forced to skew their reviews to a different number. IGN, for instance, is a company that wants to stay in good standing with a powerhouse like Sony so they can get more bonuses and exclusives from them before other companies can. And early game reviews get them more views and traffic.

I would say that it will be more telling when people who weren't granted review copies and do give numbered scores review this game exactly how true that is.

Edit: Basically, it's not "paying for reviews" in a traditional sense, and I probably shouldn't have worded it in that way. But it's moreso paying with benefits to being in good standing with their company, as a more unspoken thing.

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I made a spoiler topic, enter at your own risk.

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So here it is.

You start playing Ellie and her girlfriend having giggly adventures about weed and porn and bigot sandwiches.

You play as Abby in the first 30 minutes. Apparently Abby is just looking around for random Joels to murder.

Joel saves Abby's life. And then Abby ruthlessly murders him in the scene we've seen/heard about right after. No second thoughts. No "Wait maybe he's not so bad." Just straight up Joel goes "lol Hey, you guys look like you know me" and she shotguns him in the knees and then tortures and murders him. No discussion at all. No explanation. Just murders him.

Joel is super fucking dead 2 hours into the game and then Ellie goes after Abby for revenge. No interactions between Joel and Ellie at all in this game. Not even one. Joel barely gets maybe 10-15 minutes at most in this game? And most of it is just him summarizing the last game?

This is Metal Gear Solid 2, where instead of Raiden just being playable for the majority of the game, Raiden gets saved by Solid Snake and then murders him in front of Otacon, who wants revenge for 23 hours.

It's really bad, and we were all horribly wrong when we thought Abby killed Joel halfway through the game. It's so much worse. And we have to play as Abby for A LOT of the game after she murders Joel, without question, without explaining why she didn't even hear him out, AFTER HE SAVED HER LIFE. Presumably the "halfway through the game" is where we get a flashback explaining why Abby killed Joel, which doesn't make her any less of a maniac.

Oh and Abby is trans after all, according to Time Magazine. So that's the trans representation they chose to go with: a horrible murderous psychopath.

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davidponte posted...

Serious question, did either of you play the first game? That was 15 hours of dark, grim depressing shit constantly being thrown at you, and it did very well. In the first 10 minutes of it you get an insane gut punch that sets the tone of 'this is not a happy game', and it very rarely lets up from there.

I think what's different is that tonally, you had a bit of a break here and there with pieces of hope. You have Ellie who is more of an innocent, brash little girl to separate from the absolute grim dark nature of the world around them. You have a man learning to love and care for someone again.

In the first 2 hours of this game you get sunshine adventures, then what happens at the 2 hour mark is just setting up for angry nihilism devoid of hope for the rest of the game.

I'll be shocked if they give you any moments of levity in the first game, like just a break to show humanity with a few of the characters you had met on your travels.

It's been stated this is a game about revenge. And the revenge aspect runs so deep, without any nuance at all to it, not even giving the opportunity for any nuance to it, and it just dumps it all out in front of you and leaves little room for anything else.

I want to explain it more, but doing so gives away a spoiler they're trying to hide.

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davidponte posted...

Does the document just say "there are no anime titties" and that's why you guys are so mad?

Listen, I wasn't going to spoil this...

But I can confirm...

There are no anime titties in the first three hours of The Last Of Us: Part 2.

Huge oversight.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Uh yes the entire game is building up the Joel/Ellie relationship so it can deliver a devastating downer ending

And there is a whole-ass tragic lesbians DLC where you go on whimsical adventures in a shopping mall, only for it to have a downer ending

I said the first two hours of the game are happy go lucky fun time adventures and then it basically starts the nihilistic grim dark stuff immediately after that. Like, the game jumps to 'make you morbidly depressed' at the 2 hour mark. Of a 25 hour game.

UshiromiyaEva posted...

That was tough to get through. Both for how awful the game sounds and how awful the writer was! Anti-semetic, homophic, the works, yeesh.

But yeah, this game truly sounds like a complete shitshow. Forget the user reviews, interested to see what's gonna happen to critic reviews once people who didn't get early copies start getting there hands on it.

Even now, it's not hard at all to find several negative critic reviews that just so happen to not be scored (not a conspiracy thing, sites like Vice didn't score in the first place).

Yeah, even though he's pretty terrible, he does a decent job explaining what a mess the first three hours of this game are.

I can't imagine critics who aren't already going to bend the knee to Sony bucks giving this game a favorable review. Seeing how the first three hours plays out, I can't even imagine how much worse is gets for the next 22 hours with how the negative reviews describe their experience.

This isn't even an MGS2 scenario where you go in expecting Solid Snake and then get Raiden. This is going to get so much more push back.

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

Hmmmmm I'm about halfway through this document. It does sound pretty awful, but just want to state for the record that whoever wrote this thing up is definitely a total fucking loser themselves.

Would rather it wasn't one of the GamerGate alt righters that put this summary out there, but I'll take what I can get for now.

This is very true, but it was the only one I could find.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

This is exactly what the first game does!

r u 4 real?

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Done and done. Enjoy expecting to be disappointed and actually becoming even more disappointed!

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Tonally, everything with Ellie is like... just the most bizarre thing for the first 2 hours of the game. It's just goofy and I think they're trying to go 'haha here's some lighthearted adventures with Ellie being a teenager let's laugh and love!'

And then at 2 hours in it's just like the most grim dark nihilistic shit.

Edit: Also, sent the spoilers to @UshiromiyaEva . Super interested to hear his second opinion and whether or not I'm overreacting.

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Reading a summary of the first three hours of this game. This is actually like a million times worse than we had expected. I am floored at the decisions made here.

I won't get into the spoilers... but man. I'm not playing this fucking game. It's trash.

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Ahahaha they took the PISS out of the west coast showing of Smackdown.

What an embarrassment.

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That he went out of his way to try and defend some idiot who compared his schlock to Schindler's List is the ridiculous part, regardless of how tasteful he was with it.

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I only have Tweets about the Smackdown spoilers.

But it sounds so bad it's hilarious how bad it is.

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Neil Druckmann is going out of his way to defend a guy who was called out for comparing his shitty game to Shindler's List.

Holy shit this guy.

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Time Magazine's review

https://time.com/5847508/the-last-of-us-part-ii-review/

Edit: Oh my god this full review is so bad. Literally talking about Gamergate in 2020.

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I should clarify it's not like, hard confirmed, but I don't see what else it could possibly be. The review says:

"A trans character who I'm not allowed to reveal yet."

So that's awful.

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So, uh, one review confirms something that we all thought was just right-wing memes.

My trans friends are going to hate this game.

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I think what's even more impressive is not only is it designed to make you feel like shit when you're playing this game, but that it goes out of your way to make you feel like shit for playing the last game too because of what happened in it.

I think it's telling that the really negative reviews are the ones that aren't attaching scores onto them though. I think that companies only care about reviews only when the number value hurts their metacritic score, as sad as that sounds, since they seem to value those numbers a lot. I mean, look at the advertising picture of them surrounded by 10/10 scores from random bullshit reviewers. And I think companies like Kotaku and Polygon kind of figured they can be as honest as they want in reviews so long as they don't attach a number to it, and still stay in decent standing with the game companies. I can't tell if it's crazy to think that or not or if it's just a giant coincidence.

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pezzicle posted...

Is it tho? You aren't "the player" you are Ellie

Like, it's a story

No aren't the character. But you play as the character, control the character, and you're forcing the things they do.

Because it's interactive. If you watch a movie and someone kills a dog, you watch them kill a dog. A character in this game doesn't gruesomely murder a dog until you make her murder the dog because the game made you murder a dog and beat you in the head with a brick about how bad you should feel for making the decision to kill the dog because killing dogs are bad and look at how upset you made Ellie because you forced her to kill that dog.

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This is a game that tells you "Hey killing people is bad" but then gives you no option to not kill people so they can continue to tell you "Wow, you killed a guy. You fucking suck for killing a guy. Isn't that awful?"

Hell, they apparently have scene where you kill dogs in gruesome ways and have flashbacks to a time you loved your doggo to make you feel bad about killing a dog you can't avoid killing.

I think the issue isn't "They didn't expect this to be so received poorly when people are tired of wanton violence" so much as they made a game that is so nihilistic with the express purpose to make you feel bad while playing it and rubbing your face in it, and it's so egregious that people are finally saying "You know what? This fucking sucks."

TLOU1 did this right by still making you seem like you were just trying to do the right thing to survive, so that even if you understand it was awful, you felt like you had to or that it was for a good reason. This game throws dogs at you, you kill them, you get punished by them making you feel bad for killing them, and they keep forcing you to kill them. It's senselessly cruel without any real meaning. The statement they're trying to make is just mean because it forces you into that situation. But it tries to dress it up as a lot more deep than it is.

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This seems like a solid review that articulated explains a lot. He seems to think the story is a giant mess and that it's about 10 hours too long and that the gameplay is barely improved at all.

https://youtu.be/GB20A8CitRU

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Literally Neil Druckmann saying leading up to release "We don't like to use fun when we talk about our games." He's a fucking weirdo.

I saw a review that was so blatantly "Please don't stop giving us review copies" where the Cons of the game was "The gameplay isn't really good." And they gave it a 9/10.

If the VIDEO GAME part of the video game isn't good, why did you give it 9/10?

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I don't know what is more shocking to me.

The article.

The fact that the poll wasn't about how hot the dog or owner was.

Or the fact that people seriously voted for this poll.

Never stop Full Throttle.

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MoogleKupo141 posted...

ive heard that protection money claim was made up and is not actually happening

I hope that's not true then.

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metaIslug posted...

Is this autonomous zone thing real? Man, America is something else

Yes.

I haven't checked out anything about it today, but it's a joke that it has been allowed to happen. They have a list of 30 demands that are all increasingly more absolutely absurd and they're asking businesses for protection money and shit.

If I lived there I would be livid that they're just letting these guys do this.

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During the very first press conference they had, literally the only piece of information that Vince McMahon offered about the league was no kneeling during the anthem. lol

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Did everyone think that? I thought the resounding opinion was "Yeah but Vince won't ever listen so who gives a shit."

That said, this lasted longer than expected.

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So will this be worth watching when it's over?

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The Inner Circle vs. Best Friends and Orange Cassidy segment was actually really strong.

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FTR is so weird to watch outside of WWE. But they're still extremely good.

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Chris Jericho on Dynamite commentary again.

A+ show instantly

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Best humor in the series though, easy.

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re: JK Rowling

I saw this and was amused.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zl783QdI24

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Corrik7 posted...

PA is a shitshow right now. HR836 passed the other day. Half the populace is saying it ends the emergency declaration and essential/non-essential and color phases are gone. Even a State Senator is saying this. Others are expecting a governor veto. Others are saying a governor can't veto this type of legislation. Only a court can overturn it.

So, I have no idea wtf is going on. All I know is Kennywood opens July 11th and mask or no mask, I am taking my kid there one day this summer.

Big recommend for Steel Curtain btw.

I was super upset potentially my last trip to Kennywood ever and the Black Widow was out for maintenance.

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ElizeLutus posted...

A lack of union causes problems of its own. Including political pressure on police to arrest the 'wrong people'. Swinging in the opposite direction isn't the answer. Unions need reform -- not elimination.

That's why I said get rid of the union so these oversight programs and stuff can actually do their jobs without incredible pushback so something like you just said doesn't happen.

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Corrik7 posted...

This is the same for basically every union. Some are weaker or stronger than others, but the general gist is to protect employees from punishment at all costs. Even if you know they are a bad employee.

I'm aware of this. Differences:

1) The taxpayer pays for police unions and police are to meant to protect the taxpayer, but police unions protect the police
2) When the police abuses their power, it affects the vast public at large.
3) Police have a much more dangerous job, not only for themselves but for the people they serve and protect. And when they abuse their power, they have a much more significant effect than some asshole who doesn't work hard.

We should not be paying for something that works hard to keep a man's badge that has 15 complaints before he kills somebody.

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Jakyl25 posted...

Union busting is not the answer

Whoever replaces it will need a union

I literally just explained how there is no accountability with a union in place.

A vast majority of their job description is to fight tooth and nail to remove accountability from officers. And that is something we, the tax payer, fund. We are funding an organization to make sure that officers can continue to abuse their power and get away with it using whatever they have to. The police union is the reason that officer had 15 complaints and kept his badge.

You can add an oversight committee, but guess what happens? Police unions continue to do everything they possibly can to remove accountability from that officer. That's their job. This isn't like any other labor union that will try to keep your job due to unfairness in the workplace. They try to keep your job after you have complaints about you abusing your power.

You need to get rid of police unions. Everything they do isn't bad, but this all hinges on them. You want to replace them? Fine. But they cannot be involved in complaints at all. It has to be completely out of their hands. And as far as unions go, that also doesn't necessarily work because they are supposed to have the worker's interests in mind.

A union doesn't work for police. It just doesn't.

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Suprak the Stud posted...

So I mean Joe Biden's biggest issue is he says stupid things. Like, all the time. He can't help himself. "Shoot them in the leg" is obvious just insanely stupid, but I'd rather not reduce his platform just down to the worst thing he's said when overall I think there is a lot more good than bad. He has a very competent team around him already that is largely steering his policy in the right direction and I'm hoping his administration would be equally competently staffed.

But yeah a lot likely will not happen unless a miracle happens and the dems somehow win the senate. I don't expect them to pick up more than a single seat, honestly, so that seems very unlikely.

Hence why I go back to saying it feels like he's trying to lose the election. He can't stop from saying outlandishly stupid things and he's just going to struggle in any debate because he can't articulate his platform properly even when he isn't sounding like an idiot. It just feels gross having to vote for someone who is, at best, a senile puppet.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Well, Bernie is also very much for accountability stuff like suspending qualified immunity and having individual officers be liable instead of the city. He just also loves cops and wants to pay them more.

It's actually pretty frustrating because both Bernie and Biden agree with some of the major Defund ideas like reducing scope of police, making social workers more involved, investing heavily in community rehabilitation and housing as crime prevention to reduce the need for policing...but they want to do this while giving the police MORE money.

I mean come on. Without defunding the police, how are they going to pay for it???

It's fucking easy. Force a reallocation of funds. Get rid of the police union and replace it with their ideas for an oversight committee that does not work for the police in any way at all. This can't be a fair system until the union is out of there, or else they'll just keep fighting and find reasons to ensure these people keep their jobs or lessen these infractions or do shit like make them take a class they'll blow off and toss them back on the force until the next time they screw up.

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I'm just saying, you can't act holier-than-thou making big stunts and screaming at people that they're killing grandma if they go out in any kind of group and then go out and join these protests.

Because all you're saying is that you aren't as worried about killing grandma as you acted like you were. You just wanted to be a sanctimonious asshole.

(Not pointing out anyone on this board since I didn't pay too much attention to if anyone was acting like that.)

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Check out my entertainment blog!: www.heroicbiz.com
I discuss video games, comics, movies, and TV!