Lurker > NeoElfboy

Yeah I wasn't expecting to like Pearl but she's pretty great.

Case 2 villains are usually easy to figure out. I actually think 2-2 is in some ways trickier than most, because I was suspecting both Morgan and Ini but didn't anticipate the collaboration, so I was trying to guess which one it would be. It's actually kinda unusual for the murder mastermind and the killer to be different people, though perhaps I should have expected it more given that 1-4 is another example.
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Team Rocket Elite posted...

Maya has a short section where she is playable. There's also another playable character in E2-3 that is a full fledged playable character.

I wasn't counting Maya's little bit (no testimonies or other meaningful gameplay), but I'm embarrased I forgot the latter. Heck you might spend as much time playing as him as playing as Mia? Be interested to see how it turns out on Leon's line count.
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It's pretty fair to not like Mia, and I say that as someone who likes her quite well. I've definitely talked with people who don't like her because of how she shows up and gives the player hints; some people take that as a jab at their intelligence.

Playable Mia is solid but of the five playable characters in the series (if I'm not forgetting anyone?) she's the one I enjoy playing as the least. That's not an insult because the other four are all top ten characters in the series to me.
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Underleveled posted...

NeoElfboy posted...

Certainly isn't the implication for Fire Emblem! Or Final Fantasy for that matter.

I think it's more "they're not story-connected, so start with the more polished ones and work your way to the ones which are clunkier but are easier to get into if you already understand some of the conventions which span the series".

This is definitely the reasoning for Fire Emblem.

Except that 9 and 10 are story connected and should be played in proper order. 6 and 7 are also story connected but can be played in either order since 7 is actually a prequel to 6 anyway.

I rather suspect most English-speakers played 7 before 6 anyway!

You're right about 9 and 10 of course. New Mystery and Shadow Dragon as well I suppose, though as games with weaker narratives, less is lost. I do know some people who played 10 before 9 and they certainly still like the games, though I think Ike suffers a lot that way (mostly because RD Ike is IMO a bad character, so if he's the one you see first, it probably sours you on him in PoR as well).
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Fix the Mahogany arc levels.
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1-5's last trial day is an abomination. Evidence law, Gant whining about not testifying, Lana being braindead, it's all bad. Not to mention "frame a child for accidentally killing someone -> BLACKMAIL SO STRONG YOU WILL DIE FOR ME" is some of the worst plotting Ace Attorney has ever done.

I kinda want to hype the second trial day as the only good one because Jake Marshall just makes me crack a big smile in general, but on the other hand it has Mike Meekins. You can't win with 1-5.
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Certainly isn't the implication for Fire Emblem! Or Final Fantasy for that matter.

I think it's more "they're not story-connected, so start with the more polished ones and work your way to the ones which are clunkier but are easier to get into if you already understand some of the conventions which span the series".
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Luis_Sera89 posted...

Finally, *minor Fates spoilers* As mentioned in the rules, characters are being listed by their first/most notable appearance, so in the case of Odin and Selena, they're being entered under Owain and Severa respectively. Just in case there's any confusion/consternation.

I'd consider their Conquest appearances most notable myself; they're required PCs there rather than optional (and partly due to that they have considerably more supports, etc.). That's also the game that gave them their FEH appearance. That said, if you want to count them as the same character (totally fine), I'd suggest just listing them under both names in the actual contest. It's barely a spoiler at all, they even look the same!
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Honestly unless your lead is the same colour as your team colour (or has an incompetent build), you can't go wrong. I don't think I've ever lost a VG match with a competent, different-colour teammate, unless it was 100% my fault (e.g. assuming auto-battle would do something not suicidal).

I find I don't really have the energy to care about voting gauntlets any more. These past two days I just did the minimum number to get the 4 orbs and that was it. It's a shame because this voting guantlet idea cracks me up.
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LeonhartFour posted...

speaking of which, 2-4 "happen" in about 2 weeks

Fixed that for you.
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I still think it's weird that people call that character "Black Knight" in 2018. (Of course, here I am not deliberately spoiling it myself, just in case someone would be annoyed by it. I just personally think it's weird that people would be sensitive to what is ultimately a relatively minor spoiler for a game which is over a decade old.)

Xander
Soren
Nailah
Leo
Elincia
Elise
Niles
Odin
Beruka
Selena
Arthur
Henry
Titania
Lyon
Mae
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I thought 1-5 was seriously off on my first playthrough of it, before I knew anything about it being a retcon. It completely ruins the narrative flow of the first game. I sometimes wonder if I'd think more fondly on the case if it had been advertised as a "special bonus case". Probably not since I'd still hate Lana and Gant I'm sure.
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I'm sorry.

And some people are good at recognising other people's handwriting, while others are not. This doesn't need any crazy theories to explain!
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(lemme know if posts of this type annoy people since this doesn't really seem like a debate thread otherwise)

KamikazePotato posted...

Random Lon'qu and general arena chatter

1. The Love Abounds banner had ranged spoiling in the Gift tomes. You can't really claim they've stopped just because the last new hero banner didn't (and even that featured 2 Distant Counter weapons!). Also, the big reward for the ongoing TT was a buff to armour, implying IS still thinks they're a bit underpowered (I would agree; you obviously do not).

2. Raven mages with high atk still hold up great, especially if they can receive Hone/Goad Emblem buffs. You OHKO two out of four colours unless someone runs Cancel Affinity. A good blade mage doesn't care about dragonbreath because they OHKO dragons at WTA or neutral (WTD is possible with certain builds). Building for OHKOs is kinda what magic does really well (or 2HKO in Reinhardt/Olwen's case, same thing). Brave Bow also but not as well for several reasons.

6. There are still very, very few non-greens can counter a player-controlled Reinhardt (and even greens have trouble). It takes like 50 HP/40 Res to avoid a OHKO from a buffed QP Reinhardt even before Goads are considered. If you meant counters for AI-controlled Reinhardt, well, almost anything the AI does is easily countered.

7. Couldn't disagree more, Breakers are some of the most valuable B skills because they let you completely destroy a certain matchup regardless of speed. They cut through Wary Fighter, they completely nullify speed-and-special-based characters like Bow Lyn and Ayra. Swordbreaker is a particularly good one because (a) swords are the most common weapon, and (b) their users are often fast. The only widely available B skill I would consider better than a Breaker is Quick Riposte, and only because that allows follow-ups against a wider range of targets (though only for characters who expect to do enemy phase combat).

8. Mia is infantry, therefore is not as good as those dudes (except Soleil, sure). Again, most of them match her speed with an appropriate Goad, or come close, while crushing her in other stats and/or mobility. And since you played the personal experience card, I'll throw it right back: I don't think I've seen a Mia in arena this calendar year. (Or a Lon'qu, for that matter.)

Also I never said Lon'qu is unusuable or anything close. There's a very large gap between "one of the best choices possible" and "unusuable", and Lon'qu falls well inside it. Speed's still a good stat, after all.
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Not really sure what the problem with AAI Gumshoe is? I certainly enjoyed his role in E1-4 which helps explains why he's got Edgeworth's back despite the latter generally being a jerk to him.

That or I'm not as high on him in the OT, I dunno. The first game is the only game that made me really care about him. I was all ready to embrace Fulbright as my favourite detective even before you-know-what.
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Mega Man 9 if you haven't played it for anything else.
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Oh man. I like this game buuut...

(spoilers obviously)

-Embrace Apollo as the main and make the game about him
-Improve the humour. Most of the few comic witnesses in this game are pretty big misfires.
-Don't bring back Kristoph of the bad motivation and already-behind-bars as the big bad. Replace the final case with something more like 6-2 to actually close the Gramarye plot in a satisfying way, except with the villain developed throughout the game.
-Develop Klavier more. Do something with his relationships with Kristoph and Daryan. I like the guy, even.
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Mages can't deal with the green meta very well at all. All of the top picks have either Distant Counter or a Dragon Breath counter.

And some of those top picks have bad Res and thus die in one hit to a good Triangle Adept Raven mage or buffed blade-tome user. Even something basic like vanilla Raudrblade Tharja with a triple-buff from Ephraim OHKOs Hector, Brave Ike, every darn green mage, and Myrrh... misses Fae but Fae also gets doubled. Never mind what a proper -blade mage with emblem buffs can do (granted, they actually get a bit worse against Brave Ike, but they also usually finish on the double unless they're named Leo).

I find enemy armour units pretty close to a free win in arena, so your hype there just confuses me. I assume they exist to prey on people who run all physical units or something. Dragons are a much more legit point but the reason dragonbreath has that effect in the first place is because ranged damage was so utterly dominant a few months ago. I still feel it has a clear advantage, but hey, if you're right, maybe we'll start seeing weapons which prey on melee types?

Lon'qu's enemy phase is very strong. With refined Slaying Edge he hits really high HP ranges which means he doesn't die to any single hit, and his speed ensures he never gets doubled. That's all he needs.

"Being able to take one hit" isn't a very strong enemy phase to me, as most units can do that unless they get a disadvantageous matchup. Lon'qu has a lot of trouble taking a second with his 22 defences. I'm not accusing him of being made of paper, but it's hard to hype him as a particularly good enemy phase unit, either.

Also, Swordbreaker is a common B skill in arena (especially on reds) so relying on speed to avoid getting doubled isn't always going to work (it helps if you run Swordbreaker right back, but I understand not wanting to do that on 39 base speed). And of course there's still Reinhardt who he needs to hide from.

Buffs don't matter. Everyone can get buffs.

Don't be disingenous. It's a weakness of infantry that their buffs are way worse (less than half as potent, generally), both hone/fortify and spur/drive/goad/ward.

Is Ayra better? Yeah. Is Mia? Yeah. Does that matter? No.

Is NY Camilla better? Yeah. Is Elincia better? Yep. Is Siegbert better? Hard to argue. Is Brave Roy better? Surely. And that's just non-armoured, high-speed sword users. I'm kinda inclined to throw Soleil in there - surely 9 atk is worth more than 4 spd - but you could at least squint on that one.

(I'd consider Mia worse than everyone I just listed, too.)
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I also disagree with people's assessment of red swords in general. People are still stuck in the mindset of 'lol Reinhardt will kill them anyway' when everyone and their mother has at least one Reinhardt check on their team, and the new powerhouses are dragons, all of which (Nowi excluded) are best dealt with red sword users, especially the Falchion guys. It's a green meta. Get you some good red swords to deal with it.

The problem is that (a) the competition for swords is incredibly fierce, and perhaps more significantly it's fierce for almost everyone because a disproportionate number of free units the game has given out are sword-users, and (b) player phase infantry melee's not that great because positioning and threat range are king. I'm not sure I really buy this green meta thing (green is the rarest colour used by non-arena enemies; in the arena it's probably either green or colourless), and even then much of the green meta has terrible res and thus red mages/dragons seem more appealing than swords.

Lon'qu only has 29 atk, can't receive emblem buffs, and his bulk doesn't allow him much of an enemy phase. Just compare him with NY Camilla, who trades 4 spd for 4 atk (and can make up the speed with just one Goad Fliers, let alone other buffs), along with 5 HP for 9 def (winning trade even before you consider that Slaying Edge builds like to proc Bonfire/Iceberg). Lon'qu's perfectly functional if you like him and will be effective if invested in heavily, but top tier he is not.

Whichever defensive stat you plan to take most hits off of (usually your higher one) is better than HP. The other one is usually worse. This strikes me as self-evident. -HP being the second most desirable bane for many units means that most of us are happy if we draw it.
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You're making me want to replay this game again. I don't have time for that right now!

LeonhartFour posted...

Oldbag: I...I know that! I wasn't born yesterday!
Judge: No one in this court is accusing you of that.

The Judge has some excellent subtle burns like that in PW1. I mentioned Gumshoe not being able to say "hemoglobins" properly in 1-2, and he finishes it off by saying, "Listen, I'm no expert here," and the Judge follows it up with, "Yes, you've made that clear." So good.

On the note of characters giving out burns which now feel kinda unexpected based on more recent characterisation, I also love Winston Payne's 'Mr. Butz, what you describe is generally what we mean by "dumped."'
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1-3 so good.

One thing I love about the first game (well, 1-1 through 1-4) is that the relationships between some of the key characters (Phoenix, Maya, Gumshoe, Edgeworth, even Mia really) are actively evolving as the game goes on. In most of the other games, the cast's relationships feel more static. AJ and DD come closest with their combo of new playable character + new detective + new prosecutor + old character in a new role.
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Looks like Phoenix is gonna pass Edgeworth during 1-3 after all.

I'm surprised 1-2 has so many lines! I think of that case as so short; I breezed through it in an hour the last time I played. I guess you're counting optional stuff and there's a lot of it compared to non-investigative cases, but still, I wasn't expecting it to be significantly longer than 3-4.

I object to the claim that the ending of 1-2 overhated. It's both nonsensical (why would Redd confess to a capital crime?) and anticlimactic as hell.
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