Lurker > Emeraldegg

I don't really see any issues, it's like you said, the guaranteed stuff is always the hardest to grasp.
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

I anticipate being in pretty big cap woes this year so I will likely be looking to trade forward to next year. If I recall, the format would be like:

Panthers receive: Next year 1st rd pick, this year 7th rd pick
Other team receives: This year 1st rd pick, next year 7th rd pick

Is that correct?
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

Lol no big deal as long as we're cool, I was like o_0
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

I am afraid you have me misunderstood for someone else trdl, as I haven't played undertale nor have any ill feelings towards you ;_;
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

I guess you could say Hearthstone took a page from its own meta playbook

Too many Patches
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

I played up to where you got out of prison wiht my brother one night, seemed interesting enough.
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

The first MTG card I ever saw was Progenitus.
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

Gimme
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

I would totally want him if I didn't have 10 mil tied up in reggie bush
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

davidponte posted...

Emeraldegg posted...

So last time I pulled a legendary it was prince 3, I was looking through my shaman collection yesterday and forgot that I had, at some point, gotten a Runespear, and I was like...

Why would I ever use these cards, why would they make it like this

I'll trade you for my Dragon Soul.

I at least like dragons so I would do that in a heartbeat
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

So last time I pulled a legendary it was prince 3, I was looking through my shaman collection yesterday and forgot that I had, at some point, gotten a Runespear, and I was like...

Why would I ever use these cards, why would they make it like this
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

Cursed fine print!
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

I don't really care about bojack, I'll be putting all my stuff into EZA banner, try to get that rainbow'd kaioken goku
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

KCF you are a cruel cruel man when you're feeling it
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

I see, I appreciate it!
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

Gotcha, I just didn't know if it would make the "your next battlecry triggers twice" trigger twice itself and therefore lend to extra triggers.
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

Questiona bout that, if you murmuring elemental into a 2nd one, does it make your next 2 battlecries trigger twice? I would assume it doesn't make your next one go 4 times
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

I opened a murmuring elemental and plugged it into my elemental shaman deck, I am loving it so far. The synergy with blazecaller/fire elemental/servant of kalimos/Kalimos himself is great. Won a match yesterday against a hunter because I healed myself from 11 to full with a double kalimos healing. I just like combo-y things like that. I'm surprised I'm not a huge rogue player.
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

Are there any tips to pick winners? Like is paying attention to who's hot and who's not a thing in this?
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

Nakamura
Kane and the Demon King
AJ Styles and Kofi Kingston
Bray Wyatt

The Eye of the Storm
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

Oh god. Oh god. OH GOD.

Not JERRY JONES
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

inb4tccan'tinb4
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

Friend of mine hasn't been a fan of the actor from day 1
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

Holy Vikings Batman!
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

Ranlom is my new mortal enemy for reasons that will become clear
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

Johnbobb posted...

Bane_Of_Despair posted...

I'm on board for anything Kirby Air Ride

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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

Yaaaaaay stan!
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

I will never leave unless kicked out, lol
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

Got STR Super Janemba with today's tix!!
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

Anagram posted...

Why didn't Qui-Gon exchange his Republic credits for a local currency that Watto would accept?

Poor exchange rate
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

How would that work anyway, if someone wanted a refund? As one of the comments points out, most of those listings shown actually say that the card is rare, does that count as false advertising or is it the burden of the buyer to know that the rarity can't possibly be known yet?
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

I should be fine
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

His issue I think is what several people have said already, it's that his ego is so fragile that he makes every situation into a win-win for him to protect it. Got a bad beat that made him lose? Game's fault, opponent was just lucky, you aren't better than me, etc. 100% of the time. Beat an opponent? It's obviously 100% his skill, 100% of the time. Like he's trying to take the best of both worlds (assuming this is what he actually thinks and isn't just trolling) and you just...can't.

Like I wouldn't be surprised if ulti is capable of playing better, but doesn't because he's afraid it'll break him if he tries as hard as he can and still loses sometimes, so he gives himself the moral highground by just ****ing around so he can tell himself "well if I REALLY TRIED I could have totally beat that guy." Although that is merely conjecture on my part.
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

I somehow have 0 characters with the low class category, I might not even attempt this
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

davidponte posted...

I think you should just call it a day, Emerald. There's no getting through and at this point he's just repeating the same points he always makes.

Yeah I'm done, I mainly posted that so that no one was confused about what exactly it is I wanted or what I wanted answered that he didn't answer. He's back on ignore, all is right with the world again.
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

Lol I went rogue for a quest and won 2 pretty easily
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

What about before the game even starts, the process of deckbuilding?

What about situations that others have brought up, such as knowing when to press for board control and when to hold back to wait for a clear? Or doing things like getting the random element out of the way first with life tap/discover cards? Are these not things that require skill to navigate? These are conscious decisions that players make in order to swing the game in their favor, are they not? Is that not what skill is?

Why did you speak of Kripp as deserving of the #1 player status earlier? You spoke as though the reason he is the #1 player is because he consistently makes the best plays. Is that not skill?

What you're ultimately saying is that it's not the end result that matters, it's that both players have equal chance to achieve that end result, right? So how is discover/adapt any different if both players get access to the same result pool?

Aaaaallllll these are questions that you did not address directly, but instead referred to an article by mark rosewater that not only isn't about hearthstone, but isn't even completely for your argument.

Assuming this is what ulti is saying, anyway, that he did answer me. Because let it be known that while he did in fact answer SOME of my early questions, he stopped directly addressing them point by point as I did with him, once it became apparent I had comebacks for each of his arguments.

What I want, ulti, is to go back and forth until one of us has no other answer than, "I was wrong, you were right" and it's apparent I will not get that with you, so good bye.
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

Alright, well since ulti won't answer me, or make an honest attempt at reevaluating his views, back on ignore with you
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

I mean, he's not defending it, he's giving both good and bad points of it. That's hardly what I call bias. All you're doing by saying that is trying to cherry pick what he did say to support your argument without looking at the context of the article as a whole.

I'm still waiting on answers for my other questions. If you're not gonna answer them, just go ahead and say so so I can be done with it.
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

trdl23 posted...

Me summon Leokk?
NOPE

Summon Huffer?
YUP

Summon Misha?
NOPE

Another Huffer?
YUP

FACE NEVER TRADE
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

Let me quote something else from that article:

"It allows players to react. One of the biggest arguments against randomness is that it takes away from skill, the idea being that having everything under your control rewards the better players. Turns out it doesnt quite work that way. Let me explain. Random events happening in a game force players to do several things. One, they have to identify what is happening and what it means to the current game; two, they have to deduce how best to use the new variable to bend the game to their favor; and three, they have to maximize their other resources to take advantage of the new variable. It turns out that doing all this is pretty complicated and thus the more experienced players are much better at it. The more unpredictable, unknown variables that get added to a game, the more opportunity there is for the better player to take advantage of them. This is one of the major reasons, for example, that experienced Magic players have such an advantage in Draft formats. It turns out that the ability to react requires a lot of skill.

Randomness makes games more fun, more repeatable, and more skill-testing."

Mark Rosewater himself says that randomness makes games more skill-testing. How can you treat this article as gospel and not accept EVERYTHING he has to say about it?

UltimaterializerX posted...

There's no playing better by learning from mistakes, no decisions to make, nothing. It's literally all RNG effects deciding games, but HS streamlines it with games being decided quickly.

You never answered my questions about misplays being skill-based. I want to know what you think about decisions such as life-tapping last, playing too many minions on the board, when to use board clears, things like that. You won't derail me. Why do you keep shouting that there is LITERALLY ZERO skill involved, and yet refuse to answer my questions? All I want is answers to what you think ulti. Actual, logic based arguments on why such things do not consist of skill.
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

UltimaterializerX posted...

It can create repetition. You're in jail in Monopoly. Your piece was captured in backgammon. You're trying to play Wild Wurm. Randomness can keep you from accomplishing what you want forcing you to try again and again. Up above, I talked about how important variance was because it keeps things from being the same. Well, sometimes randomness does the opposite. It forces you to keep doing the same thing, which is about as unfun as it gets.

First off, monopoly isn't even a good example because you get out of jail automatically after 3 turns, and the only skill that comes into play in monopoly is once most or all of the properties have become owned (bartering with others to trade, a skill of personality). Also, if you're in jail and didn't get very lucky, guess what, jail is 3 guaranteed turns of not having to pay someone money! Anyway, the example he gives with wild wurm brings up a good point because guess what? Don't like random elements in your deck? You don't have to put the card in your deck, which again brings into play the "deck-building is skillful" argument. If you don't like the fact that you relied on a random element and it let you down, then consider replacing that paladin adapt card with something that doesn't involve randomness!

UltimaterializerX posted...

It can create frustration (and worse). For starters, continually trying to get something and not getting it is frustrating, but randomness adds on an even more disheartening layer. Being unable to accomplish something due to factors outside your control makes you feel powerless. Randomness can not only keep you from getting what you want but can make you feel extra bad about it.

This is true, absolutely. No qualms with what he said here. This isn't exclusive to hearthstone.

UltimaterializerX posted...

It can keep the game from advancing. To add insult to injury, randomness can also keep games from advancing. The classic example of this comes from MMO (massively multiplayer online) games. You need an object to drop to complete your quest. If it randomly drops, that means it might never drop while you're playing. Randomness takes away the assurance that any particular thing ever happens.

We don't care about randomness as a concept, we care about randomness as it relates to hearthstone. Can you give me an example of how this comes into play for Hearthstone? It's not an MMO, the example he gives doesn't apply.

UltimaterializerX posted...

It can make the more experienced player lose. For the record, as a game designer, this isn't a negative for me, but I have to respect the fact that losing to a lesser player is a negative experience for many gamers. There is little more demoralizing to a good player than to see victory hinge upon something they cannot control.

Absolutely agree with this as well, no qualms with that either.

I've run out of room in this post to quote what I want to quote, so 2nd post incoming.
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

so many good ones, but original lays cannot be beaten
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

UltimaterializerX posted...

You and I have the exact same odds of drawing a specific card each turn. If we have identical decks and I can't top deck Kill Command before you, oh well. That is acceptable. Our random odds are exactly the same.

What's NOT acceptable is my adapt not giving me lethal, and then yours gets you lethal. That isn't remotely the same RNG for both players.

What you described in situation 2 is exactly the same as situation 1. Just as both players have the same exact odds to draw a specific card each turn, each adapt/discover/whatever pulls from the exact same pool of outcomes for both players. How is "player A not drawing kill command for non-lethal, player B drawing kill command for lethal" any different from "player A adapts for non-lethal, player B adapts for lethal"?

What you're ultimately saying is that it's not the end result that matters, it's that both players have equal chance to achieve that end result, right? So how is discover/adapt any different if both players get access to the same result pool?
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

UltimaterializerX posted...

Emeraldegg posted...

"Do you believe it is possible for a game to contain both skill and luck-based elements?"

Gotcha.

Yes, because even games like chess has a flip to determine who gets white. You have to separate games where there is accepted RNG for all players equally (card draw RNG in card games, for example) and what Hearthstone does. Your Evolve and my Evolve are almost never going to yield the same result.

Okay, but cards that yield random results are far from the only thing involved in a game of hearthstone. What about before the game even starts, the process of deckbuilding? What about situations that others have brought up, such as knowing when to press for board control and when to hold back to wait for a clear? Or doing things like getting the random element out of the way first with life tap/discover cards? Are these not things that require skill to navigate? These are conscious decisions that players make in order to swing the game in their favor, are they not? Is that not what skill is?

I understand where you're coming from that RNG can sometimes win and lose games, but the key word is SOMETIMES. That is not the entirety of hearthstone. While what you say is true about your arena run, that perhaps you did make the correct play and just got beat by RNG, that doesn't happen every time. If it did, then why did you speak of Kripp as deserving of the #1 player status earlier? You spoke as though the reason he is the #1 player is because he consistently makes the best plays. Is that not skill?

Also, something else I don't understand, is your viewpoint that draw RNG is fine but other effects are not. Can you explain to me what the fundamental difference is? I mean you mention the example about 2 evolves not yielding the same results, but the same thing goes for 2 players with exactly identical decks. The players will almost certainly not even draw the same opening hand, much less anything else. How is that any different from 2 of the same card yielding different results?
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

UltimaterializerX posted...

Emeraldegg posted...

Do you dislike RNG elements in games?
Do you dislike Hearthstone because of this?
Is it possible in your mind for a game to not be completely RNG or skill based? Can a game have some RNG and some skill? If not, why?

-I almost universally hate random elements
-No
-Yes, no, and because random elements cannot be evenly distributed in a competitive environment they should be reduced and controlled as much as possible

https://clips.twitch.tv/RockyEsteemedDiamondDxCat

Hearthstone is basically that, and no one liked the random rule in FF8. Don't even lie and pretend you did.

Sorry, perhaps that last question should have been more clear. The second sentence was merely meant to be a rephrasing of the first question. What I meant was "Do you believe it is possible for a game to contain both skill and luck-based elements?"
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

Ulti, answer me these questions please:
Do you dislike RNG elements in games?
Do you dislike Hearthstone because of this?
Is it possible in your mind for a game to not be completely RNG or skill based? Can a game have some RNG and some skill? If not, why?
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

I was really bad about that for a while but I've grown out of it some.
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

GANON1025 posted...

I got an INT SSJ Teen Gohan (the old one).

I you can sorta kinda trade in SSRs to get others, but it's only a certain few that you can receive and you need to trade in multiple SSRs to get one

Are you referring to the baba shop? Yeah I guess that counts but I was referring more to like, if I wanted to trade in the extreme TEQ leader for the extreme STR leader or such. Obviously I would expect there to be a limit to such a thing.
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss

I would love a sort-of trade in feature where you could like...trade in a character and get a character of equal point cost.
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I'm a greener egg than the eggs from dr. seuss