Lurker > SeabassDebeste

I think Lost had a somewhat better excuse for its Season 5, though. Things were coming together in a way that they haven't in GoT S6 yet. S7 will probably feature more uniting of characters and even more contrived scenes, alas.

I forgot to mention it in the writeup, but the absolute worst was when the Three-Eyed Raven just randomly told Bran 'NO! R+L=J is for the FINALE, you impatient little fanboy!' Man, now I'm feeling bad for having this arc so high, too!

(edit) - next hint: they may not be everything they claim to be, but that might still be better than the alternative
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

25. Bran Becomes the Three-Eyed Raven (Season 6)

Key points: Beyond the wall, Bran Stark trains with the Three-Eyed Raven, which mostly consists of taking hits on that sweet tree root. He ODs a little and has a really bad trip that causes his house to cave in with ice zombies. Later, Bran's uncle reappears to piss off book readers, and R+L=J.

Season 6 trends continue: Bran becoming the Three-Eyed Raven can't realistically be considered an arc at all. It's a loose collection of plot points that feature one point-of-view character, and that character doesn't even get any development. We just kind of peek in at a story in progress, with completely arbitrarily imposed restrictions on when the plot is allowed to advance. Much of the 'motivation' here appears to be, not character- or circumstance-driven, but viewer- or producer-driven - 'we need to advance X distance, so get moving!'

And yet, visually speaking, it's a feast. I don't think highly of Bran's personal arc here, but I love the expression of delight on his face during the visions, where he's just so pleased to be able to walk around (and show off the fact that he's the approximate height of LeBron James) and see his hometown. It's really heartwarming how he gets so excited about seeing young Hodor (an obvious setup in hindsight for punching us in the gut harder). The Tower of Joy battle is presented with zero buildup and imbued with no mysticism, yet it's the best single fight sequence of the series. And while Summer's death is hilariously bad and the Children of the Forest goes war-movie-cliche on us, the whole zombie invasion is a terrifying sequence.

It's not like the plot points are bad, either. We learn about Bran's power to turn back time; we see how the White Walkers were first created; we see what happened to Benjen; we learn about Hodor, and Bran is severed of his tie to the Three-Eyed Raven; we learn of Jon's long-theorized, mythical parentage. This is amazing material!

It's just too bad everything feels so random and haphazard. A stronger performance from the Three-Eyed Raven probably would help here, but even that's a tough sell. The show just doesn't do that well when it is neither depicting majestic action or featuring multiple compelling characters together. Meera's nice, but she has less charisma than Hodor. The old tree-man seriously does not seem to give a s***. And Benjen Stark is cool, but blatantly temporary and not particularly weighty in his role. Honestly, the best chemistry comes from Young Ned and Arthur Dayne's pre-battle parlay. But the arc as a whole doesn't cohere well and it overall feels like a disappointment.

Book notes: This arc is almost entirely original. I'm quite happy with the Tower of Joy fight, but I would've loved for it to be 7v3 instead of 6v2. Pretty happy with the dialogue, too - the book version is almost certainly better, but the show version remains faithful, and it kinda makes sense since it's Bran having a random flashback instead of Ned reminiscing. That's the biggest loss there.

R+L=J is something that anyone who's ever read about ASOIAF on the internet knows, but it's pretty great to see it confirmed. Book-readers 'know' that Coldhands isn't Benjen, but f*** Coldhands - this choice makes a ton of sense. It's a shame the show doesn't do more with this knowledge/reveal, but I guess that's what happens when you say 'f*** Coldhands.' With Martin's guidance on exactly what Bran's going to learn and what plot events happen there, I think this arc could've been way better on TV. Hard to blame the showrunners for not having source material, though.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

umm

hint for next: hard to describe this as anything other than 'all over the place'
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

26. Return to the Riverlands (Season 6)


Key points: Ser Brynden Tully, the Blackfish, has taken Riverrun from the Freys. Ser Jaime Lannister, dismissed from the Kingsguard, is dispatched to take the castle back. A parlay with the Blackfish goes rather poorly, so Jaime instead bullies the captive Edmure, true Lord of Riverrun, into opening the gates and killing his uncle. But shortly after that, Walder Frey dies at his the celebratory feast. Elsewhere, Sandor Clegane is not dead, and he rejoins the Brotherhood without Banners.


There are three rather separate threads in this storyline, but the situation is pretty much like Goldilocks and the Three Bears here. Among these storylines relative to their level of intrigue, Jaime's negotiations with the Tullys is disproportionately long, Arya's revenge is disproportionately short, and The Hound's return is just right.


On the plots themselves, there's not a ton to complain about. The Blackfish has lingered out of sight (after the most conspicuous/fortuitous piss break in television history) for three seasons. His return is a 'who the f***?' moment, but he immediately makes himself permanently unforgettable afterward. My personal favorite line comes actually not from the parlay, but from his doomed attempt to hold the castle against its liege lord: 'Those aren't Edmure's commands you're following. They're the f***ing Kingslayer's commands!' The way he just hisses. It's a shame that he goes out the way he does, but that's the existence of a minor Game of Thrones character. Brienne also gets to show up here in a really minor role, and she doesn't have to murder anyone, which is kinda nice for a change.


I love what Arya and the Hound do here in separate settings. The Riverlands have been an iconic part of the series since Season 1, and they're two of the best characters to pass through it. Walder Frey's death feels sadly rushed - a clear casualty of the effort by the writers to tie up loose ends of the Old World before we really move into the future Wars to Come.


Book notes: We're not getting Lady Stoneheart, obviously. I didn't really know where she was going in the books, but the biggest loser is the wider scope of Frey justice. One of the biggest book things in resolving the Red Wedding is how the smallfolk wreck the Freys; the Boltons are going to get North Remembers'D, and the Lannisters are getting done in by a combination of themselves and their closest allies. It's a display of how their scorched earth tactics actually ruin things for themselves. In the show, Cersei has never been more powerful, while the Freys and Boltons lose to the Starks, sending the opposite message of 'They pulled a great move, just didn't stomp out enough of their enemies.'


Jaime at Riverrun this episode is almost comically better than Jaime in Dorne, and the plot behaves as if that little regrettable episode never happened. Jaime changing his mind on Cersei - for mainly selfish reasons - is the definitive part of his AFFC arc. I'm not thrilled about his being more boring in the show, but based on his face when he returns to Cersei and sees what she's wrought, I'm optimistic that it'll be worth it.


I'm just happy to see Sandor back. Beric's just a bonus.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

of course bran's not a leader yet - he only comes into power because both his father and his elder brother leave in quick succession, and he's like 9 or 10 in the show and a cripple

it's fun to see him learn as an underdog,and he certainly shows signs of listening to good leadership
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

More to come!
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

next hint... this arc is characterized by characters returning, rather than departing - however, by the end of it, they've once again departed
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

good work folks

27. As High as Honor (Season 1)

Key points: Catelyn, en route to Winterfell from King's Landing, captures Tyrion at the Crossroads Inn. Instead of making the obvious play to return to Winterfell, Catelyn instead diverts her father's bannermen to escort Tyrion to the Vale, where her sister Lysa Arryn is ruling in the stead of her son. However, Lysa denies Tyrion a fair trial and refuses to join the Stark cause in the war, but he's able to escape by goading Lysa into a Trial by Combat.

The Vale plays a small but hugely important part of Season 1. Tyrion being captured by Catelyn is a tense, awesome scene that shows Catelyn's resourcefulness, and their trek is classic ASOIAF - just because you made a smart play like Catelyn did, doesn't mean that you're home free just yet.

But you know what's even more classic than the raids that Catelyn and Tyrion (and Bronn! 'I like you!') face on the road to the Vale? What they face in the Eyrie itself. Here's Catelyn's very own sister, the same sister who tipped Catelyn all off about the Lannisters to begin with. She above all ought to know how much her sister needs her help... and she's intentionally not calling the banners to help Catelyn. It's a dick move, worsened when she strips Catelyn of her prisoner, denying Catelyn the opportunity to handle Stark-Lannister business the Stark way. It eventually becomes clear that while she's neutral to the Starks and Lannisters, her actions aren't senseless (as they weaken both houses for Littlefinger's gain) - but here, there's a less sinister explanation: Lysa is insane.

And by that, I mean she is insane. We first see Lysa breast-feeding a goddamn ten-year-old. Said child acts exactly like you'd expect from a mother who still breast-feeds him at ten, and when your every move teeters over a mile above the sky, you wind up with some loopy-ass morality. Lysa and her son are straight-up disturbing as f***.

But of course, this arc is just as well known for introducing trial by combat. Tyrion faces a horrifying fate in the Sky Cells - an amazing image - and manages to become allies with a major brute. We learn how a Lannister pays his debts, we get his infamous 'confession' about making the bald man cry, and we're introduced to Bronn via iconic duel. It's probably the arc that is most responsible for Tyrion skyrocketing in character rankings to begin with as it shows us some levity in this horrific world.

Book notes: I'm not a huge fan of Lysa and Bronn's exchange about 'honor,' but Tyrion's false confession is pretty awesome. The Moon Door being a pit is actually not from the books, and that is amazing. The show is better here.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

Hmm, hint for the next one...

Crazy is good - if you're a viewer. Not so much if you're, in-universe, relying on crazy to perform literally any sort of important job competently. Especially not if crazy is secretly betraying you.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

Nice guess again Johnbobb!

28. Daenerys Joins the Dosh Khaleen (Seasons 5-6)

Recap: After fleeing Meereen, Daenerys is captured by a Dothraki Khal. Upon discovering that she was the Khaleesi of Drogo, the horde takes her to Vaes Dothrak. Condemned to face a trial, Dany hatches a plan with Ser Jorah and Daario, who had come to rescue her, and slaughters the assembled Khals right in their capital.

I'll be honest here. This arc isn't particularly well written or plotted or directed or anything. It feels like it was necessary because of the way the book has stranded Dany, and the resolution feels linked to the idea that we need to get this show on the road if we're going to get anywhere, like, ever.

Insofar as this subset of episodes constitutes an arc, it's basically defined by the amount of fun that its images can conjure. We begin with an inexplicable visual: the Dothraki swirling about Dany as if she's the center of their Milky Way. Why? Because it looks f***ing amazing. Also, because it provides a very obvious spot for Dany to drop her ring (perhaps the least suspenseful cliffhanger of Season 5.)

Next, we move on to this hilarious scene where Dany defends herself. She has zero power here, and while they're impressed with her knowledge of the language, Khal Moro spits her titles back in her face. Nonetheless held back by his people's customs, he doesn't kill or rape her - a solid victory. This scene is basically notable for the Khal doing standup with his minions and his wives as his audience.

I'm counting Daario and Jorah's scenes as part of this ridiculous little arc as well, and honestly, I'm pretty satisfied with the result: they're virtually impossible to take seriously at this point, with Daario having been usurped by a guy with so little personality no one even noticed he died - as king of Meereen. Jorah was literally friendzoned in favor of Daario, and then friendzoned two more times afterward. Fortunately, the show doesn't treat them seriously, either - it turns them into something of a buddy-cop comedy, but with zero dramatic stakes and a lot more sexual taunting.

But honestly, there's only one reason this 'arc' is up here, and it's because Dany does basically the least expected badass thing she's done in... I believe it's been three seasons. It's everything - fire and blood, psychotic Mad Queen, dead-eyed vengeance, utter self-assurance, and zero dragon dependence. Oh, and it's hilarious how much the camera adores her t*** after seasons of rumors that they would no longer appear on the show. The Dothraki bowing to their new leader, born in flames a second time, is phenomenal. Hail to the Queen.

Book notes: Obviously this hasn't happened yet, and the signs are that Dany winning the Dothraki over will transpire nothing like this. That's a great thing for the show; Dany's non-fireproofness has never been stated by D&D. They thought of a creative solution for Dany to get her out, and they did it quickly. Good stuff.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

Hint for #28... normally you wouldn't expect protection by words to work out this well, but they hold out just long enough.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

oh cool, that means that my clue wasn't too vague then

let me think of a good one for the next arc
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

29. The Great Lannister Conspiracy (Season 1)

Key points: Jon Arryn, Hand of the King, is dead. According to Arryn's wife, the Lannisters are behind it, which ups the Starks' suspicion. Bran sees Jaime and Cersei f***ing, and is shoved out of a tower. An assassin attempts to end Bran's life, but Summer the direwolf prevents this. Signs of a coverup abound in King's Landing, but as Ned draws near the truth, he's stalled by an attack by Jaime, and King Robert is killed.

Here's the thing about the Great Lannister Conspiracy - it's not actually that 'great.' Yet because of the points of view that we're shown and because of Littlefinger's meddling, it certainly seems more in depth than it actually is. The very first thing we find out is that these people have conspired to murder the second-most powerful man in the Realm, and later in the very first episode, we basically find out why they would have done that - because the Queen is cheating on the King - and that they're certainly willing to do it (by pushing Bran out a window.)

And when the scene moves to King's Landing, we basically carry over everything about the Lannisters. The reason Robert can't act against Jaime or Cersei? He's in a giant s***hole of debt to motherf***ing Tywin Lannister. An investigation into Jon Arryn's squire is cut short when the knight ends up dead at the hands of the Lannisters' Mad Dog, Ser Gregor Clegane. (The dude is also obviously pure evil.) Jaime, we find out, is a man sworn to protect the King, who's instead cuckolding him - and who killed the former King. He descends upon Ned practically the moment that Ned is first unprotected, killing all his men and leaving him desperate in the streets. And Cersei, who tells Joffrey that only they matter, is quite happy to let Robert die.

The whole Lannister conspiracy the clearest case of lurking evil intrigue in the series. It's why we cringe every time Ned makes a move that tips his intent without protecting himself. It's why we're confident that they'll come out on top by treachery. It's why we desperately want them to fail.

So as a result, it's actually a little disorienting when you realize that they're not really much of a conspiracy at all. Certainly Cersei and Jaime conspire, but it's bizarre when Tyrion has to question them about both the fall from the tower and the assassin. Neither Jaime nor Cersei admits to having sent him. We find out that communication among the Lannisters is actually fairly lacking, especially with Tywin, who dresses down Jaime pretty severely in their first (show-original) scene. And of course, the original act of which the Lannisters are accused of committing... they didn't actually commit.

It's both cooler and more disappointing in hindsight when the cabal shrinks and we find out the Lannisters are actually a mess. But the time during which the show props up their schemes brings an awesome sense of dread.

Book notes: I like the Cersei/Joffrey scene a lot, and I did a double-take at the explicitness with which Cersei just kicks Lancel out of bed. Otherwise, this is also adapted pretty directly. (In cases like this, I generally prefer the show.) The worst change: Pycelle's scene with a woman in bed. Ugh.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

interesting guesses!
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

well you'll get your chance next

tier complete

RAMSAY CUTTING OFF YOUR DICK TIER
50. Brienne and Podrick's Not-So-Excellent Adventures (Seasons 4-5)
49. Daenerys in Qarth (Season 2)
48. Drowning in the Water Gardens (Seasons 5-6)
47. The Great Ranging (Seasons 2-3)
46. Theon Becomes Reek (Seasons 3-5)
45. Sam the Slayer (Seasons 3-5)
44. Steward Jon Snow (Season 1)

WAIF SMACKING YOU IN THE BLIND FACE TIER
43. Sam Reaches the Reach (Season 6)
42. Ramsay Rules Winterfell (Season 6)
41. Cersei Versus the Faith (Season 6)
40. The Lady of Winterfell Returns (Season 5)
39. The Chained Dragon Queen (Seasons 4-5)
38. Tyrion and Jorah Tour Essos (Season 5)
37. The House of Black and White (Seasons 5-6)
36. Tyrion Runs Meereen (Season 6)
35. Rise of the Kraken (Season 6)

OLD NAN MAKING YOU s*** YOUR PANTS TIER
34. All Those That Deny That Are My Foes (Season 2)
33. Renly's Ambitions (Seasons 1-2)
32. Bran's Flight North (Seasons 3-4)
31. The King and the The Kingsroad (Season 1)
30. Robb and Bran Manage Winterfell (Seasons 1-2)

hint for the next one... not all of it was true, but when people believe it - and when at least some of it's true - sparks are gonna fly

hopefully this one's vague enough!
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

... pretty good call!

30. Robb and Bran Manage Winterfell (Seasons 1-2)

Key points: Bran wakes up and starts having wolf dreams. With mom and pop gone, Robb inherits the lordship of Winterfell. Soon, he has to call his banners, putting Bran in charge, where he reigns rather listlessly until the walls are breached.

There are characters who are f***ing awesome in what time we do see them, but in the grand scheme of things kind of get scrubbed from memory. That's Maester Luwin. The guy is just f***ing rock solid throughout Seasons 1 and 2. He's a phenomenal advisor, a trustworthy guide, a guileless mentor. I can't name you one plot-critical action he took, but he's always there, and he's doing boss stuff like smiling when Robb announces that he wants boots in Winterfell. (He's also hilariously wrong about Bran's visions meaning nothing, but let's not hold that against him.)

And then there are characters who have incredibly limited screen time and again don't affect the plot, but will stick with you forever. That's Old Nan. That story she tells Bran is nuts. Probably the first really captivating scene in this vaguely defined arc, which basically tells us, 'Just because we're not advancing the plot doesn't mean you shouldn't be watching every second of it.'

That's what this arc's all about - daily life. We don't have a lot of action here. Both Bran and Robb rule, and they find out it's not particularly glorious. (In a rare opportunity to get to do something, Robb is kind of a douche to Tyrion - though it's hard to fault him for that.) And yet, these scenes add humanity - the way Bran loves riding his horse with Tyrion's contraption, the way Osha's wild yet compassionate ways tell us about the Wildlings in advance of Jon's venture north of the Wall, the way Hodor's penis can dominate a scene on its own.

Despite the devastating news that reaches Winterfell via raven, especially at the end of Season 1, with Ned's execution, we still feel like there's something innocent and impenetrable about the castle. It's grey, it's a little gloomy, but it's home.

Book notes: I really like the decision to make Robb a POV character, because Bran does'nt see quite as much of him as we might like. The books have a lot more politicking here, especially in A Clash of Kings as Bran really has to rule the roost there. The show does a fine job of trimming things down, but I am a little sad that we miss out a little bit on the simple writing style that characterizes Bran's narration. And some of the complexity is lost in the North, though as we find out later, the show can't really care less about that.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

since we're entering the top 30, hint for the next one because gimmicks are the sure way to improve ratings!

this one is more of a location than a single character, and during the arc it sees more departure than arrivals
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

up
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

31. The King and the The Kingsroad (Season 1)

Key points: Eddard Stark, Warden of the North, is running things in Winterfell, when King Robert Baratheon, flanked by a giant royal procession, pays him a visit. Robert asks Eddard to be Hand of the King. Eddard agrees and chooses to take Sansa and Arya with him. On the way to King's Landing, Arya's direwolf defends Arya from Prince Joffrey, resulting in the execution of Sansa's direwolf.

This is a loose category representing pre-King's Landing Season 1 but minus what happens specifically between the Lannisters. It's an ambitious, world-building set of episodes that starts the ball rolling and launches myriad character arcs.

The episodic nature of the beginning here is unique and fun. Eddard and Robert cover so much in their conversations, and I just remember being drawn into the world, trying to piece together the immensely rich history they covered. So Robert took the throne from the Targaryens... so this is Eddard's dead sister, who Robert loved... so this is how the 'regular people' view the White Walkers... so this is what King Robert thinks about that white girl surrounded by brown guys.

Establishing Arya and Sansa early is also fantastic. Sansa has a lot of silly misconceptions, but her absolute naivete is full of snobby charm. Arya is more straightforward, the badass who shuns girly stereotypes, and she's not going to be fooled by Joffrey's blond hair. (As a sidenote, I'm not convinced Joffrey's good-looking enough for Sansa to fall for him that hard, but eh. Royal blood talks. Or at least the appearance of royal blood does.) Early on, we sense just how fake and evil Queen Cersei is, how averse to fighting her King Robert is, and how easily swayed Sansa is by external beauty.

Due to being an expository/establishing segment, there's some awkwardness here. These days, I idolize Eddard's mantra, 'The man who passes the sentence... should swing the sword.' Yet the sentence seemed really cheesy back in the day. Jon Snow, in his extremely prominent scenes here, begins his pouty-faced adventures in pouty-faced fashion, with the direwolf connection feeling cheesy as f***.

Book notes: I read the books after seeing Season 5, and I was surprised with how simple the prose was, which makes sense given ASOIAF's massive fandom. It's clean and simple, and the limited POVs make it really fun to piece together action and see into different minds. One small scene the show added I liked was Arya beating Bran at archery early on.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

MarquessLaus posted...

Renly is a fool, Tywin and Stannis are some of the best commanders and there's no guarantee that Robb was gonna agree to swear fealty to Renly as the king above him, which was Renly's condition (in the books). Catelyn criticized Renly's strategy, Tywin says that Stannis, not Renly was the real threat. We should've been shown why outside of Mel's instawin button.

Yeah, I'd really like to see some evidence for this. In the books, Donal Noye also claims Renly is a sham. But we're denied this, which sucks.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

32. Bran's Flight North (Seasons 3-4)

Key points: Fugitives from Winterfell, Bran, Hodor, Osha, and Rickon are aimless until they're beset by Jojen and Meera Reed. The siblings encourage Bran to meet the Three-Eyed Raven to unlock his powers, which involves going beyond the Wall. Osha and Rickon split at the Wall, but Bran soldiers on, developing his warging with Summer to save Jon and with Hodor. Finally, he reaches the Three-Eyed Raven.

I don't think it's unfair to criticize the pace of this arc, but honestly, I don't mind too much. Bran is a likable kid (and kind of a terrifyingly huge teenager), Hodor is one of the most lovable figures in the show, and Osha is charismatic and awesome and pretty hot to boot. It takes a while to cross the Wall, but there's also this knowledge that once they do, it'll be a total loss of innocence for Bran.

The real issue with Bran's arc is Jojen. The dude is introduced really awkwardly and seems really suspicious, and he has this unsettling way of looking way too deep into Bran's eyes. He lacks in charisma and is basically a plot delivery vessel and it feels really jarring the way he appears in the story. We eventually get accustomed to him and then POOF. Meera, on the other hand, is great. Her little rivalry with Osha is established and played with early on, giving us a delightful scene where they argue about how to skin a rabbit. (Turns out there's more than one way...)

There are also just several cool events here. It's fairly shocking when storylines cross in the middle seasons of the show, and Bran's two near-misses with Jon are fantastic - with Summer, and then at Craster's Keep. Warging Hodor is pretty terrible, but oh-so awesome from an action perspective, and it's interesting that no POV character is there to tell you how f***ed up that is. The skeleton wights are kind of ridiculous, but it's actually a really fun explosion that tells you that 'Yo, stop focusing on King's Landing - we're thinking much bigger now.'

But it's not the action that defines Bran's physical journey arc. To me, that's the story of the Rat King that he tells. Bran is cut off from civilization throughout this entire trek, yet he feels the psychic reverberations of the Red Wedding. It's a rare case where an arc is enhanced by its timing relative to nominally unrelated events - the discussion of the importance of Guest Right. And Rickon's tearful goodbye to Bran is also kind of crushing. (f*** Season 6's handling of him.) They're not shocking or exciting scenes, but they have a lot of heart, and in Bran's arc, heart counts. A lot.

Book notes: Jojen and Meera are introduced earlier in the books, but I can see why that'd be impractical here, and they played practically zero role prior to fleeing Winterfell. One cool thing cut from the show is that Meera tells the tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Otherwise, this arc is really solidly adapted.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

I'll get to Inviso's comments later since there are so many.

But regarding Renly... what's interesting is that it's not like GRRM wrote himself into a corner with this. This is exactly how it went down in the canon, but it was only book 2, and it wasn't inevitable or anything. The Tyrells hadn't been introduced full-force yet, yet GRRM chose to give them a gigantic army and to have them follow a doomed usurper who never got to prove himself. Instead of being pissed off, maybe we should wonder why he set up Renly this way.

I can think of a few reasons. 1. The Lannisters needed to win, and the only way to do that was with a redonkulous alliance. 2. The Red Woman needed to become a clearer villain, and Stannis - obviously the most important character, since a POV character was created just to follow him around - needed to get sinful blood on his hands. 3. Renly personally was a loose end from Book 1.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

Book notes: Brienne is so much worse that it almost ruins this arc. I was shocked to find how likable Brienne was in the books. But giving extra care to developing Margaery is a phenomenal move by the writers (though unfortunately she goes nowhere, ultimately). I'm also iffy on why Renly was chosen to be kind of effeminate and physically slight. Book-Renly looks like a young Robert. It would have been much clearer why everyone was so eager to bend the knee if he were shown to be a dude who looked like he should be a warrior king - tall, muscular, and handsome - rather than the slightly pasty look he has.

Elsewhere in the Stormlands, Ser Courtnay Penrose is an absolute f***ing boss, but you can see why he was omitted from the show, and it's hard to hold that against the showrunners. The shadow trick only needed to be pulled once, and this way you get both Davos and Catelyn's reactions together. It also tied in with the excising of Edric Storm, which I find to be pretty acceptable.

Littlefinger being here is kind of meh, but it enables Margaery's scene, so I can't get too much on that case.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

33. Renly's Ambitions (Seasons 1-2)

Key points: Encouraged by his lover, Ser Loras Tyrell, Renly Baratheon aspires to greater political heights than his current seat on the Small Council. After King Robert's death, Renly urges Eddard to seize the throne, but he is rebuffed and flees to Highgarden, where he marries Margaery Tyrell. Catelyn Stark encounters Renly as he marches with a force of a hundred thousand at a glacial pace, and he names Brienne of Tarth part of his personal guard. He's then murdered by Stannis's blood magic before he gets anywhere near King's Landing, and Brienne helps Catelyn to escape.

Renly leaves a pretty interesting legacy for having so little ultimate screentime. And it's not even like all of it is great - Loras giving him a blowjob in King's Landing was kinda random, his interactions Littlefinger in the Stormlands were lacking, and one of Catelyn's most famous and badass-sounding lines - 'These are knights of summer, and winter is coming' - bears absolutely no fruit, since they never even get a chance to have their mettle tested.

That's the biggest disappointment from the whole King in Highgarden - we never get to see how he would have fared. We're told that Renly is inexperienced and green, we're told that feasting this much is gonna be a problem, we're told that winter will be coming for Renly's army. The problem is, dialogue and deus ex melisandre aside, every indication is that Renly was going to steamroll Stannis and then hook up with Robb to smash the Lannisters. The ending to the arc kind of undermines a lot of the really interesting stuff it was setting up, and it denied us the opportunity to see how things would play out.

That said, Renly's death defines this arc. The shadow baby is crazy, but kinda in that awesome way. And it leads to absolute mayhem - there's something to be said for the fact that we don't see any battles ever play out, and it reinforces the lesson learned from Ned's death - that just because we're told something will happen, doesn't mean it will. (Also, that Brienne loves murdering people.)

There are a bunch of interesting scenes here, of course. Margaery is an absolute vixen, and the girl is shamelessly pragmatic and ambitious. To the public, she presents an immaculately polite face. Behind closed doors, she suggests bringing Loras in to solve Renly's bedroom issues, and she doesn't want to be a queen - she wants to be the queen. She's by far the best character of this area of the war.

Beyond that, Renly's camp is overall a breath of fresh air. Since we've got a Stark POV there, everything's new, and it's fun to venture in to the Stormlands. This is the first neutral territory meeting where we can see Stannis, too (though he comes off just as stodgy and - well, as Renly puts it in Season 1, 'Stannis has the personality of a lobster' - and later, 'We both know what Stannis is!') 'Born amid salt and smoke - what is he, a ham?' The argument between brothers is ridiculously stupid, but as seemingly only Stannis notices, Renly is about as clear a usurper as there is.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

@kevwaffles

1. Roose takes obvious pleasure in killing Robb Stark, even if he's not openly sadistic. This isn't mentioned in the show much, but the Boltons have always hated the Starks, so it's gotta be nice to give a little further f***-you to the Starks.

2. As you state, you have the possibility of the North rallying around Sansa. I think this is a case of defending your home territory first before worrying about bigger picture stuff. Even Tywin chooses to fight Robb in the Westerlands rather than fortify King's Landing with his army. (He winds up not getting punished for his mistake, of course, thanks to the Starks' own problems.) Also, winter is coming - lowering the risk of antagonizing the Lannisters at least until it ends. (Stannis's arc shows us there's zero way for a Southron army to take Winterfell in winter.)

3. Ramsay needs an heir, and therefore, a bride. Due to the simplified politics in the North, you gotta wonder what Ramsay's next-best option is - waiting half a decade for Lyanna Mormont to come of age?

Separately, re: book vs show: I think the show wasn't just thinking of confusing the viewers. I think they wanted to cut Sansa's Vale storyline entirely, and honestly, I applaud that. There's a lot of politicking going on in the Vale, but literally no action has taken place yet. The latest development has been Sansa going to a dance, and that was in the freaking Winds of Winter. The showrunners aren't nearly as interested in intricacies, so for them, excising an entire setting, plus reuniting Starks, is a great idea.

The execution of those changes, naturally, is the flaw. But the idea had definite merit, IMO.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

MarquessLaus posted...

Littlefinger wants to sit on the Iron Throne. He IS gonna make an enemy of the Lannisters, he's trying to get ready for that moment. Getting the North marshalled by Roose Bolton slaughtered by his Vale army, if it can even do that, doesn't help all that much. And if Sansa can't help diminish the North's loyalty to the Boltons, being named Warden of the North by Cersei isn't gonna help Littlefinger convince them to ride south with him and fight the Lannisters.

Littlefinger and his Vale army he already had was gonna deliver the North for Cersei. His army gets to march with the crown's permission, sure but only further away from the capital. He doesn't gain much here.

Yeah, there's some truth to this, but the way I see it, there's upside in breaking up the Lannisters' allies. Remember, if he goes after the Lannisters first, then the Boltons/Tyrells/Freys/Martells are still allied with the Lannisters and they easily crush the Vale.

Also, this is only super-clear in hindsight, but the Lannisters have a s***ton of their own problems to deal with. An external assault on King's Landing gives a common enemy to the in-fighting Lannisters and Tyrells, strengthening them. It's not like Littlefinger has nothing going on in the South, etiher - during his brief visit, beyond just getting Cersei's blessing to break up the Bolton alliance, he also hands the Tyrells the means to throw Cersei into prison.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

1. RE: Lannisters: Littlefinger didn't want to make an enemy of the Lannisters either way. He was only able to get the blessing of the Iron Throne to invade the North because the Boltons had 'betrayed' the Lannisters by marrying a fugitive in Sansa. If Sansa stays in Winterfell and LF conquers it, then he's Warden of the North, recognized by the Iron Throne. Plenty of opportunity to regroup and plan to take on the Lannisters without their knowing he's their enemy.

2. RE: Jon's army: In the show, 2/3 of the army that rose for Jon were Wildlings. The Northmen you might be able to get with Sansa, but certainly not the Wildlings.

3: RE: North uniting behind the Boltons: Ramsay wins the favor of the Umbers and Karstarks in Season 6 - after losing Sansa, which seems to indicate that they never cared that much about Sansa to begin with. This isn't a situation like the books, where the Boltons are in much more precarious a situation politically and internally.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

Yes, that's my point. He makes a gigantic series of gambles. (He also cooks the accounting books in the books as Master of Coin.) In the books, Littlefinger also goes around bragging about having f***ed Catelyn and Lysa. Just another example of something that could screw him, but he gets away with.

Basically, Littlefinger making bad decisions that can backfire hard is typical. It's just that somehow, his house of cards hasn't collapsed yet. The Sansa decision in Season 5 is riskier and worse than previous decisions he's made, but it's not out of character. His ambitions toward the Iron Throne are also clearly growing during this time, meaning he'll take bigger risks (i.e. pushing Lysa out the Moon Door).

(edit) - just saw this post

MarquessLaus posted...

I'm not saying there was no risk. He was gambling to reach a higher station then Master of Coin. Here he was gambling after he already had the keys to the Vale, the Riverlands and the North perfectly safe in the palm of his hand.

Sansa's not the key to the North unless the Boltons fall from power.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

profDEADPOOL posted...

I don't think it was ever confirmed that the show universe had Littlefinger lose the knife to Robert though so who knows what happened there.

IIRC, I don't think Littlefinger ever owned the dagger.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

The situation that puts Littlefinger at least risk is not involving himself at all. I already pointed out that there was quite obviously downside risk. Basically, any scenario where Tyrion comes to King's Landing while Ned is alive results in Littlefinger getting put under fire. And any scenario where Tyrion doesn't encounter any Starks has fairly limited upside.

Agreed that Lysa probably wasn't actively conspiring with LF over Tyrion.

Johnbobb posted...

Wasn't it Cersei/Jaime that sent the killer because he saw them diddling

The truth of this is only revealed in the books. Tyrion and Jaime figure it out in POV chapters right before Joffrey's death and after Tywin's death, but it's far too late to matter at that point.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

ClyTheCool posted...

So I read the books long before the show was green lit, and since day 1 of the show I've been of the opinion that the show is an AMAZING adaptation and takes the good parts of the books and elevates them up to an entirely new level. It's fantastic and actually better than the books.

But I haven't seen anything once season 4 ended.

Reading this topic is incredibly disapointing

I think that Books 4 and 5 have a lot of issues, which is part of why Seasons 5 and 6 have had issues. In the early books, you have enormous character density and clearly defined wars and constant payoff to the setup.

Just look at AGOT - Ned, Sansa, and Arya are POV characters in King's Landing, alongside major plot agents in Jaime, Cersei, and King Robert - plus memorable sid characters like Syrio, Littlefinger, Varys, and Pycelle (even though the latter sucks ass.) ACOK starts to thin things a little, featuring Bran and Theon colliding in the North and

LordoftheMorons posted...

Show Euron is SO BAD. He's possibly the character who's most worsened by the show. Ugh.

Show Euron is worsened considerably by what you take from the book. Warning rant mode. In terms of personality, he's actually more like Victarion, who's pretty well liked in the fandom. The only thing is, morons like Victarion don't rise to political power; they get beaten by Asha. Oh, yeah, she's also much smarter in the books, because Yara's philosophy on the show is also basically Victarion's from the books. That said, the choices D&D made are... they're pretty consistent within the show universe. It just becomes a much s***tier universe than the books' because of those choices.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

34. All Those That Deny That Are My Foes (Season 2)

Key points: Lord Stannis Baratheon, with the help of a Red Witch and an Onion Knight, amasses his forces on Dragonstone, preparing to lay waste to any other claimants to the Iron Throne. First comes his brother Renly, which he wins by stunning deus ex machina. Next is King's Landing, where Joffrey's uncle and grandfather successfully repel him. His fleet annihilated, Stannis retreats.

From the beginning, Stannis is humorless and brittle. He doesn't really smile, he doesn't tell jokes, and the lighting around him is super-grim. The Iron Throne belongs to him by right, and he's going to be a f***ing stick in the mud about it, even if it gets him killed (which it doesn't, because the plot can be awesome when it needs to be). Ser Jaime Lannister. The man's still a knight, whatever else he is. He'll never retreat, because he only has ATTACK in his mind.

It's just a frustrating watch for me. Now a lot of really cool stuff happens as a consequence of Stannis's decisions - Renly's death, the Battle of Blackwater, the Lannister-Tyrell coalition, and essentially Robb Stark losing the war without even getting a say in it. But whenever Stannis is on screen, the camera broods and stews with him and it's not really-enjoyable.

As the series progresses, Stannis's absolute doggedness and his family life come more to the forefront, making him more watchable. Similarly, everyman Davos has such everyday lines and plays such an everyday role in Season 2 that he doesn't firmly establish himself until later either. It's only Melisandre who adds character intrigue into Stannis's arc, and she's fairly one-note from what we see. (We're naturally suspicious of a religious fanatic witch, but we're shown nothing of her internal psyche.) For now, it's only what Stannis Baratheon represents from a plot perspective - and that is significant! - that makes this a solid arc.

Book notes: Few. Davos's narrative in A Clash of Kings spends a lot of time pondering the politics of the Axells and the Florents, negotiating with Sallador Sahn, admiring Stannis's teeth-grinding, and dumping backstory. The humanity that characterizes him in book-lovers comes from Books 3 and 5, not the common-sense dude whose purpose is mainly to bring dread and foreboding into the Battle of Blackwater.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

My condolences. Very real possibility that you'll be waiting TWOW even the TV series ends and you've been spoiled by cultural osmosis. :/

That said, there's something to be said for material that's not remotely adapted from the books. My favorite storylines from Season 6 - the ones yet to come - are the ones that are almost entirely untouched from book material so far. One of the things that most disappointed me about S6 is how much of it was spent on ADWD/AFFC stuff, which really surprised me.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

and that is the end of our second tier


RAMSAY CUTTING OFF YOUR DICK TIER
50. Brienne and Podrick's Not-So-Excellent Adventures (Seasons 4-5)
49. Daenerys in Qarth (Season 2)
48. Drowning in the Water Gardens (Seasons 5-6)
47. The Great Ranging (Seasons 2-3)
46. Theon Becomes Reek (Seasons 3-5)
45. Sam the Slayer (Seasons 3-5)
44. Steward Jon Snow (Season 1)

WAIF SMACKING YOU IN THE BLIND FACE TIER
43. Sam Reaches the Reach (Season 6)
42. Ramsay Rules Winterfell (Season 6)
41. Cersei Versus the Faith (Season 6)
40. The Lady of Winterfell Returns (Season 5)
39. The Chained Dragon Queen (Seasons 4-5)
38. Tyrion and Jorah Tour Essos (Season 5)
37. The House of Black and White (Seasons 5-6)
36. Tyrion Runs Meereen (Season 6)
35. Rise of the Kraken (Season 6)

60% less season 5-6 in the upcoming tier, guaranteed!
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

hmm, the kingsmoot is painful for a book reader, but balon's final two scenes are like 2 minutes each and pretty worthwhile, i think
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

my second to last line too >_>

You also made me realize I misspelled "rein" as "reign" augh, though that could be seen as a pun too. <_<
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

Book notes - So in the above writeup, I tried to divorce myself as much as I could of the books, because I'm ranking what happened on screen, not what was left off from the page. But holy s***, this was frustrating. No explanation is given why there is a Kingsmoot, which is wut. I ain't even mad about Victarion being omitted - a wise move since he's kind of an idiot who's serving a similar purpose in bringing a fleet to Dany.

This storyline definitely throws in some fanservice for books. Asha gets a line about pinecones and seashells, albeit in a different context. We have no POV to witness Euron killing Balon in the books, so getting that confirmation is wonderful. It's a stunningly awesome scene for book readers (with Euron removing the hood being perhaps my most hyped moment from the Season 6 trailer), including some book lines that would make no sense to be said with no Victarion in the fold.

But the writers make some mind-melting omissions. Euron in the books is cheesy as f***, but he's dark, charismatic, handsome, and interesting. In the show, we have a British Jack Black. Even if no dragon horn is given, it's frustrating that we go with this Donald Trump lowest-common-denominator version of Euron instead of the seductive Euron who tells tall tales of his journeys to justify going for Daenerys and he showers the Ironborn with gold. Why is there no other contender? That would greatly improve the cinematic value of the Kingsmoot, which went from one of the best chapters from AFFC to just another 'checkmark' scene in the show.

I know that the showrunners are deliberately pushing girlpower, and very specifically in the violent direction, and it sucks. Brienne's compassion turns into cold-blooded mass murder and an entirely stupid justification. Ellaria's lament of vengeance turns into a poisonous kiss and a vicious assassination. Asha's Kingsmoot speech is brilliant because it's subversive. Everyone knows how good of a warrior she is, and yet she's the one talking about pinecones, seashells, and a more sensible retreat from the North. Instead, here she is, Generic Ironborn Candidate #3. Or she would be #3, if they didn't cut out all the other contenders to the throne. Ugh, why?

Also, the Seastone Chair. Why is it called the Salt Throne?! AUGHHH.

Finally, it's flagrantly obvious that this arc is either misplaced in time or was originally not going to happen at all. Keeping Balon Greyjoy alive this long causes issues in Stannis's arc - it certainly seemed in Season 5 that the writers wanted us to forget he even existed. (Indeed, he's the second king to die in the War of the Five Kings, but even Balon lampshades that he's the last one alive in the show.) This arc was deemed to be important only after Season 5 was written; otherwise, it's hard to fathom why Season 5 got the s*** Dorne arc and Season 6 got the watered down Ironborn arc.

Okay, trying to rein in my saltiness now.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

35. Rise of the Kraken (Season 6)

Key points: Theon Greyjoy returns to Pyke, short a penis. Uncle Euron pushes Balon off a bridge during a storm, but he's nonetheless named King of the Iron Islands in the Kingsmoot. Yara and Theon steal the best ships from the Iron Fleet and flee to Meereen, where Daenerys welcomes the free navy they've brought.

I mean, you can't fault their pacing on this one at least, right? At the core of this arc - more a collection of scenes, really - Yara and Theon's reconciliation is kind of sweet. There's certainly a sense of betrayal, where Theon unfortunately has to explain why we serously needed to forget that Yara going to the Dreadfort ever happened. Then you've got his support for her at the Kingsmoot. (Is Theon the GOAT of giving rousing speeches that get awkwardly undermined immediately after or even during them?) And while her method of psychiatric treatment might be a little lacking in refinement ('Drink! Now Imma go f*** the t*** off this one'), it's evidently effective.

Euron is coarse, rude, and quintessentially Ironborn. The guy kills his own brother in cold blood and then shows up basically alone and announces that he did it. He usurps the throne by appealing to the basest in the Iron Islanders. It's ugly, it's bloodthirsty, and it... basically makes sense. Euron's not charismatic enough to be a strong villain yet, though it looks like he'll be playing some sort of antagonist role in Season 7 for sure.

On the other hand, there's definitely a sense of being rushed. What doesn't make sense so much: Yara and Theon stealing dozens of ships without any of the Euron-faithful noticing it. Who are these people who support them, and if so, what's the real political situation in the Iron Islands? It (probably unintentionally) hints at depth that the show very clearly will never spend the effort to explore, similar to the Dornish coup that implied that the Sand Snakes had popular support there. Contrast the lack of fallout of the 'easy-mode' coups of Season 6 - Cersei killing everyone, Ramsay killing Roose, Ellaria killing Doran, Euron killing Balon - to what happens in Season 1. There's no minor character with integrity here, no Barristan Selmy to raise a voice in defense of wisdom. Disappointing for sure.

Yara's meeting with Daenerys is pretty cheesy, but it's a nice way to empower these women, and more excitingly, it's another sign that the plot is moving really effectively. Sure, Dany was already set on ships, but transporting forty thousand Dothraki screamers is only possible with a bigger fleet. And more importantly, Yara's a chick of action - once she shows up, there's no dawdling left - we're headed back to Westeros.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

36. Tyrion Runs Meereen (Season 6)

Key points: With Daenerys Targaryen absent from the city of Meereen, Tyrion takes the reins. With Varys, Grey Worm, and Missandei as his Small Council, Tyrion treats with the Masters of Astapor and Yunkai, plus a Red Priestess. A short-lived peace falls over Meereen until the Masters betray Tyrion and besiege the city, but Daenerys returns in time to cook them.

Like the two storylines preceding this one in the rankings, Tyrion's stint calling the shots in Meereen is hampered mainly by opportunity cost. There's some cool stuff here - a jackass and a honeycomb, a little back-and-forth with Varys, the Lord of Light's religion coming to Meereen, Tyrion bringing Westerosi ways of sexcapades to Essosi politics, Tyrion befriends a dragon who takes to the skies, a meaningful badge is given. But the problem is, this is freaking Tyrion. We know he's capable of so much more.

The biggest reason for Tyrion's sense of irrelevance and our feeling of disappointment is the holding pattern we're put in. Sure, it's nice watching T&V slowly improving the city. And there's even some fleeting value in those rather painful scenes with charisma black holes Missandei and Grey Worm. But let's be real - the siege of Meereen basically informs us point-blank that the season was a stall-game. We've been waiting all season for Mama Dragon to come back and takes us back to the promised land, and that's basically what was accomplished in the end.

That Tyrion is subjected to this type of storyline crawl is pretty much unacceptable. To surround him with this type of supporting cast is just as disappointing. Fortunately, the pacing of the storyline going forward leaves little room now for more stalling, but I'm worried that there also will no longer be space for Tyrion to work politics.

Book notes: This is almost entirely new material since Tyrion hasn't entered Meereen as of the end of ADWD. On the other hand, it takes a whole freaking season between Daenerys's flight from Meereen and the Battle of Fire, whereas we know that's coming at the beginning of TWOW. There are worse spots to be in, but this type of pacing represents a regression from Tyrion's journey in Season 5 for sure.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

Peridiam posted...

As someone who believes books > show, and is much more about story/character arcs than all else, I'm enjoying this topic!

By any chance have you read any essays/articles on the books? Such as what's found on The Meereenese Blot or Westeros.org? They've given me such an in-depth perspective of the books, the themes, the storylines, compared to what I got out of my first read of the books.

Basically they had me appreciate the intricacies of AFFC and ADWD a lot more. I recommend them if you can spare the time.

I have, yeah. I started watching the show during Season 5, and as soon as the season ended I devoured the books. After that is when I read stuff like Meereenese Blot. For Meereen itself, reading the dissection of GRRM's writing was a lot more enjoyable than reading those actual chapters. But other material, like looking at Jon's command of the Night's Watch, was more enrichment material.

MarquessLaus posted...

Tyrion does not live in King's Landing, let alone has any power there, nor he is all that friendly with Ned and Ned isn't killing anyone based on the words of one manipulative character going against another. It would never be that simple. Without Tywin making Tyrion Hand, and I can't undersell enough how unlikely that is, and how impossible it is for Littlefinger to see that coming, Littlefinger isn't in any real danger.

Is it stated whether Tyrion is returning to CR or to KL? He travels to Winterfell with the royal party obviously, and it's clear he's spent a lot of time in King's Landing.

You're right that Tyrion becoming Hand of the King is pretty unlikely, and that he doesn't have 'real' power. But Ned is going to confront the Imp if he comes to KL, and people like Renly are willing to confirm simple facts like Tyrion never betting against his family. (He suggests during the Tourney of the Hand that if Tyrion were there, he could've made a lot of money wagering against Jaime.)

Plus, no matter what, he's the son of the richest man in the Seven Kingdoms and the sister of the Queen. If the Hand of the King has a problem with him, there's going to be testimony given, and even if LF doesn't immediately lose his head, he's exposed as being a manipulator and trying to fan the flames of the war. It exposes him to ruin for sure.

Again, the entirety of the upside of Littlefinger's plan relies on the Starks encountering Tyrion (or taking the feud against the Lannisters public). Even if it's not Tyrion himself coming after LF, we're pretty much assured that this causes issues when Tywin Lannister comes inquiring why the f*** LF's been spreading rumors about his son.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

37. The House of Black and White (Seasons 5-6)

Key points: Arya travels to Braavos and trains to become a Faceless Man in the House of Black and White. This involves cleaning of dead bodies, pretending to be someone she's not, getting the s*** beaten out of her, and losing her eyesight. In the end, she twice shirks her assignment, kills her coworker, and extorts her boss into allowing her to graduate.

There's a lot of really bad stuff in Arya's 'arc.' Sadly, the show feels woefully unequipped to delve into the logistics of magic and the supernatural. The game of lies feels devoid of actual meaning, and we don't really see Arya particularly improving at combat skills, except for once. None of the mysteries of the Faceless Men is really explained - except their origin, which is admittedly nice.

The incredible Jaqen H'ghar from Season 2 is massively devalued here. Why does Jaqen H'ghar believe Arya when she says she's 'no one' or that 'a girl has no name,' only to go against this every time she's given an option? It's not like the test is very difficult, and he's able to see through her when she mentions the Hound.

Arya also never really goes 'dark' in any sense; at no point is she remotely convincing as 'no one.' Now that in and of itself is fine; she's always been incredibly independent and has one of the strongest senses of identity in the series. The problem is, this makes her static in this arc, which (since it lacks main plot relevance) should be all about development. There's no dramatic tension when we don't truly believe Arya could go dark, and honestly, she never gives us a reason that she would want to return to the HoBaW when she completely abandons her first assignment when her sight comes back. Where's the internal conflict? Why do we need a jealous b**** to give Arya something 'compelling' to do?

And of course, the ending to this arc is infamously terrible. Stabbed in the gut, likely infected, and dragged through the streets of Essos before being hopped up on opium, Arya somehow goes on a parkour chase around the city. Worse still, she repeatedly flaunts the Faceless Men's traditions yet is let go. Save for the one really cool idea of beating the Waif by fighting in the dark (and the hilarious visual of T-Waif-1000 and Arya running through a bathhouse), it's an embarrassment.

The worst part of it all is similar to the downside for Tyrion's later stuff: wasting an amazing character. There exists a possible universe where the House of Black and White isn't as offensive, simply because it's, like, Brienne learning these mysteries or something. But this is Arya we're talking about here, one of the greatest characters in the series. And she's stuck here, pretending that she has something real going on, and it's insulting as hell.

There's one reason why this arc doesn't rank at the bottom, and that's Arya taking on Meryn Trant. The hilariously camp 'Too old' comments aside, f*** yeah.

Book notes: Arya hasn't left Essos yet in the main storyline, but the moral ambiguity is a lot stronger here as Arya at least has enacted one proper kill in addition to her extracurricular activities. The mysticism is also handled a lot more smoothly, with the warging being an especially nice touch. But again, this could still go to s*** in the books, so I'm not gonna pan the adaptation too much yet.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

Yeah, I feel weird now that I'm actually ranking these. I think Seasons 5 and 6 get too much hate (just see my defense of Sansa returning to Winterfell in this very topic...!) and yet... when I lay it out piece by piece, it's hard to disagree that the earlier stuff, working off GRRM's material, was better constructed.

That said, after we wrap this tier up, earlier season stuff will start coming down, and then the hate for the rankings can truly begin.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

The coincidental meeting between Catelyn and Tyrion was actually the best possible outcome to Littlefinger's plan. Tyrion surviving early on isn't as unlikely as you're making it seem, either - being a Lannister literally is plot armor, and it's not the contrived type. Greed is a real thing, and the one thing Tyrion does not lack in is greed.

Let's just examine the situation where they Catelyn and Tyrion do not - by pure chance - meet at the crossroads inn. Tyrion never goes to the Vale, never falls into the grasp of Lysa (and by extension Littlefinger), and never needs to face the Mountain Clans. Tyrion then returns to King's Landing unmolested, and Tywin doesn't call his banners (which is ultimately the endgame of Littlefinger's lie - to stoke the Stark-Lannister war). Tyrion is then confronted by Ned in King's Landing, at which point they converse, recognize the lie, and cut off Littlefinger's head.

Tyrion surviving early on isn't as unlikely as you're making it seem, either - being a Lannister literally is plot armor, and it's not the contrived type. Greed is a real thing, and the one thing Tyrion does not lack in is the means to exploit others' greed.

It's Littlefinger who has the plot armor here, not Tyrion.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

38. Tyrion and Jorah Tour Essos (Season 5)

Key points: Varys sends Tyrion across the Narrow Sea and explains that he wants him to reach Daenerys Targaryen. He's quickly captured by Ser Jorah, who wants to do the same thing. Shenanigans ensue, involving greyscale, slavery, and fighting pits. Tyrion finally reaches Daenerys, but she skips town almost immediately.

This arc is arguably not outright bad, but in terms of 'how the mighty have fallen,' it's way up there. This arc is kind of dull and lacks dramatic tension. Tyrion is among the most heavily plot-armored characters in the series, and the evidence for that is never clearer than when he escapes certain death at the end of Season 4. But beyond that, he's now taken away from all our favorite characters in King's Landing. Jorah, meanwhile, loses the warmth from earlier seasons and instead enters serious creeper friend zone territory now. It starts with staring at the Khaleesi whore in Volantis, and from there he just won't stop bothering Dany. (In a particularly sloppy piece of direction, the camera fixates on his hand touching Dany's. It's a bizarre choice given we know his greyscale.)

Tyrion's quippiness isn't entirely wasted here. Discussion of a dwarf's c*** is kind of funny, and there is some nascent chemistry between him and Jorah - albeit far below the level of rapport you might expect between two such charismatic actors. In by far the best scene of the arc, Tyrion and Jorah sail through the ruins of Ancient Valyria. It's stunningly beautiful, and what's great is the actors take time to acknowledge the beauty, reciting poetry even. The action is coarse, and while we know Tyrion's safe, I really dig that two seconds of blackness as he sinks into the river before ending the episode with Jorah's greyscale.

Plot-wise, it's genuinely a bit of shocking relief when Tyrion gets dumped in front of Dany. The problems with writing aren't immediately solved, but the sense we're moving forward again is fantastic. Granted, we'll soon find that that isn't really the case, but...

Book notes: There's a lot of really bad material in Tyrion's ADWD chapters. The show's excising of Penny is an A++ decision, and we really don't need to learn the politics of slavery or the million sellsword legions in the show. But the one thing that I'm going to miss a lot - and one of the most exciting X-factors in Winds of Winter - is young Aegon. That could've translated fantastically to screen, but the writers went in a different direction. But overall, you have to consider this adaptation a massive W.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

i'm not saying it didn't have tremendous downside - quite obviously it did - but it also had enormous upside, i.e. he becomes sansa's rescuer, and the one to restore her home to her. it's stupidly risky, but you can see why he did it.

you what's also a terrible plan? telling the lord and lady of winterfell an easily refutable, blatant lie that involves the queen's brother, in the name of inciting a civil war. it's literally purely by luck that tyrion never follows up on throwing littlefinger's ass in prison for that bulls***.

littlefinger has a track record for making moves with tremendous downside. this one just happens to backfire (and doesn't happen in the books) so people get on its case more.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

Agreed, that's why Littlefinger was going to take her back by force.

It's not the greatest plan, but it is a plan of some sort.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

Nah, Littlefinger might be better in King's Landing (very arguable), but there's no evidence that he's as well connected outside of it. Varys is Master of Whispers for a reason. And again, no one outside of the Dreadfort knew what Ramsay was in the show.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

I'm not calling it perfect, but Littlefinger was clearly always planning on getting her back from the Boltons. Ramsay and Sansa are wedded in 5x06. In 5x07, Littlefinger petitions Cersei for permission to raise an army to invade the North. She wasn't being thrown to the wind; he planned to get her back.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

Littlefinger is not Varys, and Ramsay's insanity is certainly not well known. Robb Stark, who studies his bannermen, doesn't know that Ramsay is nuts when Roose suggests that Ramsay retake Winterfell.

Furthermore, there's a lot of evidence that Ramsay's more monstrous acts have been covered up. Even at the Dreadfort, Ramsay's men seem confused when he slaughters them for fun during Season 3. And as far as we know, no one in the South finds out about who really sacked Winterfell until after the Red Wedding, when Roose finally took credit for it.

Even if Littlefinger had some inkling of what Ramsay was, he didn't know the extent - and he probably thought that Roose could control him, because of how important Sansa was strategically. Let's also not forget that Littlefinger is arrogant and loves to gamble about stuff that could f*** him over - lying about the Valyrian Steel dagger, provoking Cersei with the 'power is power' stuff.

Shouldn't dismiss any possible internal logic just because of one discordant element like that. It's not always game-breaking.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

39. The Chained Dragon Queen (Seasons 4-5)

Key points: Daenerys Targaryen occupies Meereen, bones Daario, and dismisses Ser Jorah Mormont. Quickly, she discovers that Drogon has killed a child, which leads to her locking up her dragons. An insurgent group called the Sons of the Harpy rise up in Meereen and kill Barristan Selmy. To restore order, Daenerys marries Hizhdar zo Loraq and reopens the fighting pits, but even that is overrun by Sons of the Harpy. Finally, the Queen flees Meereen on the back of Drogon and falls into the hands of the Dothraki.

This arc is a mess, but it's not entirely without its merits. Ser Barristan is a wonderful grandfather figure early on, lending warmth in a cold, desert city. Dany has a tough job here listening to the problems of the people, but Barristan's guiding hand is steady and never obtrusive. Yet he's fiery when called upon - the scene where he confronts Jorah and presses Daenerys to exile Jorah is exquisite. He eventually goes down fighting, which drastically accelerates the decline of the arc.

Daenerys's rule of Meereen is an exercise in frustration, by design perhaps of the original writer. Ruling is hard, and Dany is continually presented with constant awful choices between bad options. It's an extremely action-light and dialogue-heavy storyline, with a little less political intrigue than it needs but poor execution on what politics it does feature. At the center of it all, perhaps, is the fact that Daenerys herself just isn't super-likable in this arc. She's at the center of everything, but she just looks kind of bland and there.

Again, this is partially by design, but Daenerys doesn't seem to come to life throughout most of Season 5 until Tyrion shows up and puts a glint in her eye about Westeros again. The ensuing speech about breaking the wheels is a little cheesy, but it's still a glimpse of reinvigorating fire.

Book notes: The politics of Meereen are legion in the books, far more intricate and better thought out than in the show. They're also interminable. The show is actually superior in this regard, but in both cases, we're losing an absolute ton of momentum. Plot-wise, I'd say that the books are much better, but in terms of execution, we're looking at something of a push, or even the show's conciseness might come out on top.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness