Lurker > SeabassDebeste

15. Joffrey's Reign of Terror (Seasons 1-4)

Key points: Robert Baratheon dies, and his 'son' Joffrey ascends the throne. Joffrey's first notable action as King is to behead Eddard Stark. As King, he is emboldened by his Queen Mother and restrained by his Hands of the King, Tyrion and Tywin Lannister. They try to control his sadism as he commits violence unto his fiancee Sansa and even the whores that Tyrion attempts to offer him. His death comes at the end of the War of the Five Kings at his own wedding to Margaery Tyrell.

Joffrey is the most punchable of the Game of Thrones villains - of anyone on the show, really - and it's not even close. Part of it might be the fact that you know he wouldn't be hitting you back. After all, Ramsay or Brienne would probably slice your innards out if you did it to them. In fairness, Joffrey would probably have you cut in two by the Hound, but you could do it.

There's no depth to speak of with Joffrey. Every time you think he might be getting sympathetic, the s***-eating little grin comes back, or he finds a way to look even worse. And the thing is, aside from killing Ned, Joffrey doesn't even do that much to impact the politics of the Seven Kingdoms. Instead, he's just a complete s*** to everyone around him. It's not enough that he picks on the defenseless Sansa or Tyrion, who he can reasonably see as his political enemies (and indeed, he actually does try to kill Tyrion at the Blackwater). When Tyrion offers a gesture of peace by sending the whores to Joffrey, recognizing what seems to be sexual frustration, Joffrey proves that he's also sexually kinky in the absolute worst ways. In a show that desensitizes us to rape and child-killing, somehow Joffrey manages to find an even more uncomfortable way for us to 'enjoy' topless women. Naturally, he's the brutal avenue of choice for Littlefinger's disposal of everyone's favorite Northern whore.

And of course, it's funny to watch Joffrey's attempts to be charming, too. He feels really proud of himself when he obeys Sansa's suggestion of not having Ser Dantos literally drink himself to death in front of him. And while he's understandably struck by Margaery's wiles, he has no idea how to express himself properly and is puzzled by the smallfolks' love for her.

The only 'saving grace' for Joffrey as a person? The fact that we understand why exactly he's as f***ed up as he is. Just look at his mother, who never once tried to make him a decent person - only to make him act somewhat decently on occasion - and who enables him despite fully realizing the disaster he brings unto the Lannister line. Throw that in with a non-father who is instinctively aware that he's wrong compared to his true, bastard children, and it's impossible for him not to turn out this way.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

Hint for #15: They may have been lion about his birth, but the kingdom would never stag-nate.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

dowolf posted...

My biggest issue with how the arc ended is that, while maybe this is just me placing book-characters' personalities on top of their show-selves, it was always Selyse who was the firm believer, while Stannis himself never really seemed to have that zeal. Furthermore, Stannis's love for his daughter has always been absolute and unconditional; he is cold so much of the time, but with Shireen, he always seems so warm.

So for Stannis to be the one to willingly sacrifice Shireen, and for Selyse to burst out in tears, just felt entirely backwards and almost sexist. Did the showrunners know no way to characterize Selyse as anything other than as a mother?

This was intentional on the showrunners' part, I'm reasonably sure. Even in the show, for the most part, this characterization was kept - Selyse was the zealot. But even with her zeal and even her seeming indifference to her daughter, I think Selyse was never as crazed about winning Winterfell as Stannis was. And she is still a parent despite her fervor. The somewhat gendered take is unavoidable since there are only two parents, but in fairness, you didn't see Melisandre batting an eye at all. I think the overall effect is to make Stannis even more horrifying to the viewer when the fierest of the followers is the one crying out.

As for Stannis being cold and dead... he basically killed a part of himself before he made the order. By the time Ramsay slaughtered his troops in the snow, it was already over for him. His love for his daughter was absolute and unconditional, but he's already shown himself willing to sacrifice his kin for his ambitions. (If anything is sexist, perhaps it's the fact that Selyse as a character is so much more of a 'follower' than Stannis - but someone has to be the main character, and Stannis is the hero of his own storyline. Him, Davos, and Melisandre, at least.)

Pokewars posted...

Love Stannis in both book and show. Of course, hated bulls*** narrative D&D went with show Stannis towards the end. Will never forgive them for that. Very clear he doesn't want any burning. Very clear he loves his daughter.

f*** D&D 4ever.


Oh and the fact that they get Brienne to get her revenge is laughable and cliche when she never had a legitimate claim to be angry in the first place. Renly was a punk.

Show-Stannis never stopped loving Shireen, though. From the books, 'Sacrifice... is never easy. Or else it is no true sacrifice.' He doesn't want burning. That's the whole point. Also from the books, one of the most quoted lines is 'I will have no burnings. Pray harder.' The next chapter... he's burning people. Not to Rh'llor, but as punishment.

I agree a million percent on Brienne, though. Notice that that was literally the bottom-ranked arc. One of the most rage-inducing scenes in GOT history.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

response tomorrow
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

But first, this topic has to survive there!
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

We got your back. Real life sucks sometimes.

Forgot to comment on your latest post, but it'll continue to deepen!
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

But of course, Stannis's true arc isn't that of the great father or the heroic savior. He instead winds up making the ultimate sacrifice. It's disgusting and it confirms that of course, Shireen was never her own character, but basically the smallfolk in the game of thrones. And it loses him the war - while the show's environment never convince you that you're facing a devastating winter, Stannis's increasingly harrowed and haunted face tells the whole story. The man who leads the 'siege' of Winterfell is nothing but a shell, because he's lost the battle before those Bolton gates even open.

As a side note, I take very little issue with Ramsay's now memetic success against Stannis's camp with 'twenty good men.' There could have been somewhat better visual clarity as to the logistics, but we're talking about a show where Renly was killed in his own tent by a shadow demon, and we're talking about starving dudes in foreign territory.

Book notes: I love Stannis in ADWD. Everyone does. He absolutely s***s on Janos Slynt, and he complains about the incestuous Craster-spawn of Gilly: 'I will not abide such abominations here. This is not King's Landing.' Ayyy.

There are dramatic differences in Stannis's portrayal and especially in the outcomes for Show-Stannis, but I'd argue that they're more in circumstance than motivation. The biggest difference in motivation is Show-Stannis's more obvious ambition. However, this is certainly in part due to narrative differences. Davos is practically a Stannis-worshipper, so he'll take Stannis at his word when he claims not to want to be king.

Circumstances conspire against Show-Stannis, and I think partially that's because he's basically a point-of-view character in the show. It's hard to have a genius POV character, since they don't get to hide as many cool tricks. Additionally, due to time constraints, Show-Jon also doesn't give Show-Stannis the awesome plan to win the Northmen to his side.

At some point - probably not related to the upcoming Baratheon-Bolton Brawl - Book-Stannis will also need to make this choice. I don't know if he kills Shireen. But as Book-Stannis himself informs Davos, 'Sacrifice... is never easy. Or else it is no true sacrifice.'

I understand why book-readers feel short-changed with the Stannis we got in the show. But at least we got Stannis in the show.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

16. Death March to Winterfell (Season 5)

Key points: After smashing Mance Rayder, Stannis Baratheon holes up in Castle Black, unable to muster Jon Snow, the Wildlings, or the North to his cause. With only his bannermen and sellswords on loan from the Iron Bank, Stannis marches for Winterfell. His Southron army is helplessly caught in the blizzards and frost, and in desperation, he turns to the Lord of Light and burns his daughter. His freezing/starving army reacts to this about as well as you might expect, which bears some ramifications into the finale.

Stannis in the North is perhaps the most crushing and polarizing arc of the TV series. There certainly is a lot wrong with it. Paramount among these: the fact that the depiction of snow and starvation was sorely lacking. We have a few scenes telling us that the army is stuck, but there is about an inch of snow on the ground out there, and no one actually looks cold enough to shiver as they speak or move. And Stannis is executed by Brienne in perhaps the worst scene in Game of Thrones history.

Now that I've gotten that off my chest...

This is one of the most compelling arcs of the show, and it's largely due to Stannis's role. Seasons 2 and 3 have a humorless, stern Stannis with clipped delivery and unsympathetic motives. He's more concerned with burning people than strategizing or scheming. Even when he fights the Lannister bad guys, he first rejects Robb's cause, just to make things nasty on himself. But after saving the Night's Watch from Mance's amassed forces, Stannis has finally made common cause with the last standing member of House Stark - and a victory in Winterfell means avenging the Red Wedding.

As for Stannis himself? He's still kind of a selfish prick, but he's much more enjoyable to watch. Being such an uptight a******, it's pretty delightful watching him surrounded by the scum of the Night's Watch. In particular, I love the unexpected reprise of his grammar Nazi-ism. ('Less enemies.' / *muttering* 'Fewer.') We already know that he can be a loving father, even though here it's fairly transparent that he's bringing her to a bloody battle for a pretty clear narrative reason.

And perhaps most the most pleasant surprise, he has spectacular chemistry with Jon Snow. 'Bear Island knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is STARK.' We get to see a rare smile from Jon when he reads Lyanna Mormont's bold words to the would-be King. Stannis's lack of amusement is all the funnier when you see someone trying to suppress a smile in his presence. And while his offer to legitimize Jon is born of ambition, it's still an exciting, practical moment.

As for the march, nothing is grimmer, yet it's something beautiful. This is the logical conclusion of Season 4's insistence that Stannis will not be a page in someone else's history book. It's fairly clear where things are heading by the time Melisandre mentions the usurper Robb Stark and the usurper Joffrey Baratheon. Perhaps my favorite dialogue of Season 5: 'I retreated from King's Landing, Ser Davos. If I retreat again, I'll become the King Who Ran... Winter is coming. Those aren't just the Stark words. It's a fact. If we march back to Castle Black, we winter at Castle Black. And who can say how many years this winter will last? ... This is the right time and I will risk everything. Because if I don't, we've lost. We march to victory, or we march to defeat. But we go forward. Only forward.'
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

Up
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

:(

i dreamed i was old
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

And hey, that's another tier done.

RAMSAY CUTTING OFF YOUR DICK TIER
50. Brienne and Podrick's Not-So-Excellent Adventures (Seasons 4-5)
49. Daenerys in Qarth (Season 2)
48. Drowning in the Water Gardens (Seasons 5-6)
47. The Great Ranging (Seasons 2-3)
46. Theon Becomes Reek (Seasons 3-5)
45. Sam the Slayer (Seasons 3-5)
44. Steward Jon Snow (Season 1)

WAIF SMACKING YOU IN THE BLIND FACE TIER
43. Sam Reaches the Reach (Season 6)
42. Ramsay Rules Winterfell (Season 6)
41. Cersei Versus the Faith (Season 6)
40. The Lady of Winterfell Returns (Season 5)
39. The Chained Dragon Queen (Seasons 4-5)
38. Tyrion and Jorah Tour Essos (Season 5)
37. The House of Black and White (Seasons 5-6)
36. Tyrion Runs Meereen (Season 6)
35. Rise of the Kraken (Season 6)

OLD NAN MAKING YOU s*** YOUR PANTS TIER
34. All Those That Deny That Are My Foes (Season 2)
33. Renly's Ambitions (Seasons 1-2)
32. Bran's Flight North (Seasons 3-4)
31. The King and the The Kingsroad (Season 1)
30. Robb and Bran Manage Winterfell (Seasons 1-2)

BINGE-WATCHING GAME OF THRONES, BUT WHILE YOU'RE FREEZING AND UNCONSCIOUS TIER
29. The Great Lannister Conspiracy (Season 1)
28. Daenerys Joins the Dosh Khaleen (Seasons 5-6)
27. As High as Honor (Season 1)
26. Return to the Riverlands (Season 6)
25. Bran Becomes the Three-Eyed Raven (Season 6)
24. Arya Chills with the Brotherhood Without Banners (Season 3)

YOUR SISTER TIER
23. Jon the Wildling (Season 3)
22. The Worst Executed Escort Sidequest Ever (Season 3)
21. Syrio's Training (Season 1)
20. Dragonstone: The Aftermath (Seasons 3-4)
19. Sansa in the Vale (Season 4)
18. A Prisoner in the Red Keep (Seasons 2-3)
17. Watchers on the Wall (Season 4)

Hint for #16: How the religious right is associated with global warming.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

17. Watchers on the Wall (Season 4)

Key points: Jon Snow has returned to the Wall, with intel about Mance Rayder's planned assault from the North. He works hard to fortify Castle Black in particular and secures the northern front by cleaning out Craster's Keep. Finally, he takes on Mance's army and the southern assault - and goes to parlay with Mance before being rescued by Stannis Baratheon.

Jon continues to grow in both character and charisma. In Season 4 at least, the showrunners found that one way to overcome Kit Harington's still-burgeoning acting ability was to stick him in a lot of great action scenes. Rather than the largely internal adapted material from Seasons 1 and 2, Jon is given a lot of active conversations and physical tasks.

Stuff is constantly happening here. There's a sense of urgency of the incoming invasion. First Jon has to recover and assert his own innocence, but then there's political subversion from Locke and full-on action against the Night's Watch mutineers, representing the mid-season climax. These are some Very Bad Dudes, which they let you know because they keep raping women. Oh, and also, Karl Tanner won't stop bragging about what a legend he was back in Gin Alley. Is the story justification for murdering these guys a little weak? ('They might give Mance intel!') Well, yeah. But that doesn't drain an ounce of satisfaction from the actual process. Plus, we get Bran warging Hodor out of it. (So yes, Bran is in this arc.)

The second half of the season naturally coalesces around the climactic battle in 4x09. It's visually stunning, featuring all sorts of awesome sights - giants, mammoths, enormous pendulum axes (HUH???), flaming arrows, Janos Slynt pissing himself, Grenn holding the gate and reciting that damn chant. It also features Bro-lly killing Ygritte and the close of that chapter. It gives Alliser Thorne some redeeming moments that are almost uncomfortable in hindsight of Seasons 5 and 6. And of course, it introduces two characters separated so vastly. As my man Davos Seaworth says, 'You're talking to the One True King of Westeros, boy!'

Overall, Season 4 is the first time I cared about anything happening at the Wall. Its importance-to-screen-time ratio - formerly the worst in the show by far - finally begins evening out, as the Seven Kingdoms' importance declines with the loss of Robb Stark's army. This storyline isn't perfect by any means, but it's compelling, and it furthers the development of Jon Snow.

Book notes: Almost everything in this arc is entirely original, with the exception of the defense of Castle Black - yet even that is largely altered in the show. There are a few small things I miss - Aemon's 'The Wall is yours, Jon Snow' is one of my favorite ASOS lines that didn't make it to the show. And sure, we cinematize stuff a lot here that doesn't need to be - nothing wrong with Jon just finding Ygritte lying dead, nothing wrong with archers actually being capable of missing.

This gets into different territory, but ASOS doesn't end with Jon meeting Stannis - we actually cover his assuming leadership of the Wall. I think there was enough time to do that in Season 4, given how much original content they came up with as basically filler between 4x01 to 4x08. But it's clear the showrunners wanted to save Watchers on the Wall for Episode 9, so that's how it happened. We'll get into potential ramifications of that later. By and large, this is a tremendously successful adaptation that in ways outdoes the source material.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

the truest of all magics
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

hey

no tricks! no gimmicks! everything i do... is the real thing!
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

dammit steiner
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

SovietOmega posted...

Larry is simultaneously the luckiest and unluckiest person to ever exist.

maggey byrde (though i apologize for reminding you of her existence)
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

also i almost just peed my pants at the response to this comment

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/5g69pb/no_spoilers_my_great_aunt_bernice_just_died_at_95/dapuxkh/
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

I see your point. I don't think this instance is particularly a strong or compelling delivery and I don't find that the message is particularly consistently enforced across the show. Oh well.

Hint for #17... One of the better outcomes of your internship to prepare you for full time.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

Most of the awesome S2-S4 show-only stuff in King's Landing was missed opportunity, I think. The explosion of the Sept of Baelor was amazing, but all that awesome Margaery scheming went nowhere at all.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

Book notes: Sansa's chapters take up a lot more space in ACOK than do her scenes in the show. I think Sophie Turner does an absolutely incredible job, and having watched the show first, I think that the spirit of the books and the lessons and struggles Sansa endures about the contradictions of knighthood, etc. are pretty decently preserved. We're not exactly losing out on a brilliant character with Dontos's reduced role. There are two slight disadvantages - slightly reduced screen time with the Hound, and the fact that the poison used on Joffrey isn't hidden on Sansa's person until right before the wedding.

On the other hand, the show is solely responsible for Margaery and Sansa's incredible bond. Sansa is a little less naive and easily swept off her feet when she finds out her Tyrell lord would be a cripple than her over-the-moon-ness about Loras. Nonetheless, I think it's an excellent tradeoff where the show at least equaled, if not bested, the books.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

18. A Prisoner in the Red Keep (Seasons 2-3)

Key points: After the death of Eddard Stark, the Lannisters hold Sansa Stark hostage as a fiancee to Joffrey Baratheon. During this time, she has her first period, is saved by the Hound, and presides over the women during the Battle of Blackwater. After the Lannister victory, she then becomes a pawn in the game between the Tyrells and the Lannisters. She's attended to by Shae, befriended by Margaery, betrothed to the Knight of Flowers, and married to the Imp. She's saved after the second-most unusual wedding in the span of a few weeks.

We're really getting into good stuff here. Sansa's early stuff is incredible. Particularly notable is that this is Sansa. She's kind of a brat in Season 1, with her absolute defining moment coming when she unknowingly gets her direwolf Lady sentenced to death. Oh, and the one who orders Lady's death? Cersei. That Sansa continues to trust Cersei after this is almost unbelievable, but it shows just how strongly she associates beauty and royalty with goodness.

When Ned is captured by the Lannisters, Sansa still thinks that there's just been a misunderstanding, and that her golden prince will clear things up. Ned's death is one of the absolute rudest awakenings imaginable - and to make things worse, Joffrey rubs it in, ordering Sansa to stare at her father's head on a spike and that Sandor beat her. The willing blindness required to overlook Joffrey and Cersei's flaws finally vanish, and thus we enter this new era, where Sansa is purely a hostage.

Here, Sansa's ability to affect her circumstances and those around her is incredibly limited. But she has control over herself, and watching her learn and enact her survival skills is spectacular. The false smiles, the insistence that she loves her Joffrey, the constant biting of the tongue - the hatred shines through loud and clear. And yet, Sansa doesn't lose her humanity. She risks Joffrey's wrath when she stick up for Ser Dontos, the errant jousting knight, simply because she has kindness in her heart. She attempts to close herself off to the Kingsguard, since members like Meryn Trant are happy to beat her - but she still feels a growing bond with the Hound. She learns not to show fear, but when she finds blood on her sheets she panics. She learns to make herself callous, but she leads the women during Blackwater with compassion. And she learns to distrust everyone, but she still winds up falling for Margaery. We have a character in circumstances that signal unambiguously that she's surrounded by enemies who will pounce upon her weakness, yet she manages to cling onto - even nurture - the traits that make her human.

Oh, and Sansa is overall just fun. She's still kind of a bratty girl, as we see when she interacts with her handmaiden Shae. And she's still got a thread of naivete and girliness. She can't help being swept up with the idea of marrying the beautiful Loras; she loves the idea of being sisters with Margaery; she thinks that 'shift' is a nasty word for 'dung.' The world is cruel and shatters songs, but Sansa endures and manages to bring us humor and light.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

i feel like guessing bran has become basically a meme at this point

on the off chance that it's not, i've already listed every bran arc

32. Bran's Flight North (Seasons 3-4)
30. Robb and Bran Manage Winterfell (Seasons 1-2)
25. Bran Becomes the Three-Eyed Raven (Season 6)

<_<
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

Hint for 18: this arc provides an incredible window into an incredible world, but you feel bad for the frame.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

I do love the double-murder (one-in-past, one-in-present) setup of the case - and especially how it's resolved.

[hype]
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

SirBinro posted...

Ah, I even forgot that I had ever forgotten about the Jon Arryn mystery!

Greatest plot twist in the history of ASOIAF!

dowolf posted...

I'm coming in too late to comment on everything, but a few things that struck me.

--Agreed that Brienne is kinda meh in the more recent seasons.

--I'm much higher on Book Sam than you. Probably because I identify with his character a lot, the guy who doesn't really have much faith in himself. I guess that brings us into the whole author-insert-esque thing that you complained about, but bear with me. The whole "Sam the Slayer" bit is emblematic of it all, in my mind. In the books, his friends start calling him that because he was awesome, to show he was one of them, but all he can hear is an insult. Contrast this with Show Sam, who feels like Generic Anime Protagonist #573.

--I'm much lower on Season 6 in general. It feels like everyone just regressed to where they were a few seasons earlier. Sandor Clegane doesn't feel like he's really grown, Arya in a very literal sense Houdini'd her way back to Westeros, having Dany set herself on fire again feels like a cop-out, etc.

--The Tower of Joy scene pisses me off because it's missing the line "We swore a vow." That line informs so much of the man Eddard Stark becomes that, even though we're getting this five seasons late, it still needs to be there IMHO.

I don't disagree with everything you said about Sam, but I wouldn't call him generic anime protagonist at all. I can't think of a single anime I've watched with a protagonist like Sam!

Can agree with your general complaints about Season 6; the show started moving characters around without much discernment for their personal motivations.

Tower of Joy - I believe that Ser Arthur is given the line 'Our prince wanted us here.' It's a little more explicit that he serves (the dead and not-nearly-as-oft-mentioned-on-the-show) Rhaegar. The 'vow' portion of it is reinforced by Lyanna's last words, anyway, imo. I mean, I miss the exactly dialogue from the book ToJ scene, too, but this is one that I'm okay with losing.

I wonder if the books will ever show us what happened during that fight.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

prepare for LOL (lots of Larry)
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

19. Sansa in the Vale (Season 4)

Key points: After Joffrey dies during his wedding, Ser Dontos spirits Sansa away to Littlefinger. Littlefinger murders Ser Dontos, reveals that he killed Joffrey, and smuggles Sansa to the Eyrie. There, Littlefinger weds Lysa, who reveals the secret of who poisoned Jon Arryn. But when her crazy starts rubbing Littlefinger the wrong way, Littlefinger makes her fly.

First off, anything related to Joffrey's wedding is f***ing spectacular. We learn who actually orchestrated it here, and it's great. Sansa finally escapes the Lannisters. With the results of Season 3, it started to seem like the bad guys - Joffrey in particular - would never get their comeuppance. And yet here we find out that he's been done in by his own alleged allies. f*** yeah.

But let's hop right into real meat of things. At this point in the story, who even remembered that Jon Arryn was never explicitly stated to be killed by the Lannisters? Joffrey has been the de facto figurehead of the villains for the show's run thus far, but the one who really set the Lannisters and Starks against each other is actually more powerful than ever before. It's the single biggest mystery resolution of the series, and we didn't even know that it was still a mystery. This twist is the stuff dreams are made of.

Oh, and it's all delivered by Lysa f***ing Arryn in her final stand. Lysa is the absolute greatest. Her twitching insanity is only enhanced by her insane crush on Littlefinger. The shrieks when they enjoy their wedding night are just... incredible. From the outset, Lysa was clearly too high-octane to work in a show that's as generally grounded as Game of Thrones. But she burns bright enough to make it all worth it.

As for Sansa herself, this isn't really her arc. She winds up sticking up for Littlefinger, which f***s her over in the show. It's simply alright.

Book notes: A lot of book readers get caught up that Littlefinger uses the phrase 'Your sister' instead of 'Only Cat' in the show. Indeed, it does feel like a change made for the sake of change.

One cross-plotline mystery that I'm a little torn on that got entirely dropped: Catelyn Stark spends a ton of time in ASOS speaking with her dying father, who keeps referring to 'Tansy.' Catelyn is convinced that Tansy is some lover of Hoster's. But Lysa reveals that tansy is the ingredient in moon tea that she used to abort Littlefinger's baby. The book features, as a major plot point, the fact that Lysa raped Littlefinger while he was recovering from his duel with Brandon Stark. Littlefinger is in denial and claims that it was Catelyn that he bedded during this time. On the one hand, 'tansy' isn't a high-stakes mystery and was waaaaay too internal to work on the show. On the other, it's a neat way to remind us how important Catelyn still is in the Vale's storyline.

Finally - and this could never have worked in a show that was stretching the post-Red-Wedding content for a full season - the whams of the tansy reveal, the Jon Arryn reveal, and Lysa's death all happened in the last f***ing scene of ASOS. One of the great scenes of ASOIAF.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

i knew you had my back steiner
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

eh
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

yup
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

(edit) also, that should've been a hint for 19, not 10

lol
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

argh, that should be #20

hint for 10: answers we didn't even know we wanted
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

Book notes: Stannis, particularly, is far less of a stiff bastard in the books. Which is really saying something about the show, considering he's still pretty much a stiff bastard in the books! He spends the third book growing further from Melisandre rather than closer, and Davos manages to save himself with the letter instead of requiring Melisandre's intervention. Stannis lets Davos and then names him Hand of the King in the books, which makes more sense, too. Even before the massive complaints about Season 5 Stannis - which I don't fully agree with - there are signs that show-Stannis is not the Mannis from A Storm of Swords.

One area where the show benefits: identifiable characters. Bringing us up close and personal to Selyse's near-Lysa-level insanity is fantastic. (In the Lysa comparison, they've also chosen to go with making Selyse doubly crazy rather than crazy and ugly.) We interact far more with Shireen, who as I mentioned is a delight. And using Gendry instead of Edric makes sense from a storytelling point of view.

For a mega-nitpicky minor detail that was changed: the order of the leeches. I believe the intent of this is also to make Stannis colder and less sympathetic (even before the leeches are dropped entirely, ugh). Stannis in the books saves the usurper Robb Stark for last, and clearly hesitates before doing so. There's even a break in the dialogue between 'usurper' and 'Robb Stark.' It makes a brilliant end to the chapter. Meanwhile, the show has Stannis name Robb Stark with the first leech, very callously. Show-Stannis clearly doesn't give a s*** about the audience's favorites.

Two things that just couldn't possibly have translated onto screen: Davos's inner monologue of the politicking is just not going to happen on Game of Thrones. And: the long breaks between POV chapters. ASOS's last Davos chapter is his reading the letter to Stannis. He then disappears as the Night's Watch and the Free Folk begin to dominate the last quarter of the book. Stannis is scarce in Season 4, and I love the Iron Bank scene, but the rescue pacing is a little different.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

21. Dragonstone: The Aftermath (Seasons 3-4)

Key points: After losing catastrophically on the Blackwater, Stannis Baratheon retreats to his dreary, salty castle, and he broods hard. Ser Davos Seaworth finds his way back to Stannis, but he's imprisoned when he tries to kill the Red Woman. Stannis spends time with his daughter Shireen and his wife Selyse. Shireen becomes a reading teacher for Davos, and this skill proves useful when Melisandre fetches Gendry and Davos needs to find an excuse for saving him. Stannis is reinvigorated and eventually sails.

It's slow-burn. It's brooding. It's character development. A lot of it is unpleasant. Stannis strangles Melisandre in Season 2 and then Davos tries to kill her in Season 3, with both characters coming off as a******s and Mel as not particularly sympathetic at the time. But just a little deeper, in, it becomes deliciously human, with a hugely emotional climax. Oh yes.

Shireen isn't a deep character, but she's wonderfully pleasant. It kills you to watch her innocence, vulnerability, and faith in the human condition. There's a sort of entirely well-meaning condescension to her interactions with Davos, an unabashed sweetness in the gentle way she talks to her father. The early stretch of this is rough; Davos is still more of a POV character or a sketch in Season 2 and the beginning of Season 3. But trapped in that cell with nothing to do - and partnered with Shireen - he softens and grows.

And never is that more true than when he saves Gendry from the Red Woman. She's got t*** for days, but any blood rush you might feel is quickly drained out by the leeches she drops. This is the moment we've all been waiting for: Stannis's cold-blooded leech-casting ('The usurper Robb Stark.') That phenomenally creepy scene is one of those rare crossovers between storylines that's so good - that episode directly precedes the Red Wedding.

But the newly freed Davos doesn't believe in self-preservation. He finds out what happens to Robb Stark, and despite his undying loyalty to Stannis, his humanity takes precedence. He'll never describe himself as a hero, but what else can you call the person who sacrifices his own life so that an innocent will not be slain? If you can kill an innocent for power, do you deserve to be king? Let's give it over to the characters themselves for this one.

Stannis Baratheon: What is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?
Davos Seaworth: Everything.

The only thing that saves Davos is our transition into the next arc. The Red Wedding has happened. The Northern war of independence is over. Stannis's Stormland forces are s***tered, and the Lannister-Tyrell coalition strangles King's Landing. The brooding Stannis hasn't been able to accept this, but then comes that fateful letter from Castle Black. It only makes sense to go North from here.

(There's less to say about Season 4 pre-Castle Black, but one thing Stannis has going for him there is his line, 'I will not become a page in someone else's history book.' Dat iron will.)
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

GiftedACIII posted...

SeabassDebeste posted...

GiftedACIII posted...

Damn, I just finished the first case of AAI2 and that was one of the best, if not the best first case I've played. Only 4-1 can remotely compare. Multiple non-villain breakdowns.

hnnnnng so good

prepare yourself

lol it's hard. I was only intending to play the first case like a demo and then replay AJ, DD, and AAI1 before playing AAI2 because I haven't played those since their release (especially AAI1) but this case was so good I want to keep continuing. I still need to at least play AAI1 again because I forgot about how the yatagarasou worked

at this point i'd probably 1. create your own playthrough topic and 2. leave this one because E2-2/2-3 spoilers will be unmarked and 3. make sure you have a very strong bladder if you're going to try to play E2-2 all at once
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

GiftedACIII posted...

Damn, I just finished the first case of AAI2 and that was one of the best, if not the best first case I've played. Only 4-1 can remotely compare. Multiple non-villain breakdowns.

hnnnnng so good

prepare yourself
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

interesting guess!

STAY TUNED FOR THE ANSWER
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

SovietOmega posted...

Honestly, aside from Delicia's gluttony, we still know very little about this case.

Tfw...!

I think at this point in the case I was a little frustrated with the seeming lack of progress.

Its worth it.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

don't strain yourself!

thoughts on gregory/ray/badd in general?
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

Isn't it great how it feels like you've learned absolutely nothing about this case yet?
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

SovietOmega posted...

but then I am also not an anime.

feels bad man :(
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

yesss

welcome to the noir zone

young ray > old ray
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

yesss hype
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

not that guessing is compulsory or anything
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

SovietOmega posted...

edit: goshdarnit seabass, I spend several minutes of my life making a freshly baked post and then you have to go and mess everything up!

well maybe you should've spent those moments sinking your teeth into E2-3 and we wouldn't be in this predicament!
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

Hint for #20: There's not a lot of action for most of this quiet arc, but what little is there means everything.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

21. Syrio's Training (Season 1)

Key points: Ned Stark arranges for Arya to have something to occupy her time with. He pulls some strings to bring in Syrio Forel, the First Sword of Braavos. Arya learns the art of 'water-dancing,' until friends of the Hand of the King no longer enjoy privileges such as living. Syrio is last seen holding off a heavily armored Ser Meryn Trant with plain clothes and a broken, wooden sword.

This isn't an arc with a ton to dissect. Syrio's flamboyance is great (and what a last stand he gets). Ned's love for his daughter is great. Arya at Season 1 may be at her most adorable and lovable. She winds up chasing a cat and getting really frustrated and learning about a plot against the Hand of the King... but is of course not believed about it. The trip involves seeing f***in' Dragon Skulls. It's awesome.

My favorite 'less obvious' moment here comes the first time Ned spectates the training. You can see his happiness for his daughter - but then we get a closeup, and he's torn, and slowly the sounds of Syrio and Arya's wooden training swords and little mantras fade away - into the horrific sounds of war. Fantastic editing there on an incredible character.

What do we say to the God of Death?

Not today.

Book notes: Neither Ned's PTSD closeup nor Syrio's iconic catchphrase appears in A Game of Thrones, so this is a huge W for the show. Like with Ygritte, the passing of Arya's mentor leaves her with a line that winds up dominating her internal monologue. The line is less catchy than Arya's, but more interesting from a character development standpoint: Fear cuts deeper than swords. If the show could do inner monologue, I think that would have worked out better. But as is, I think 'not today' is a phenomenal substitute.

(edit)

exactly what made this so awesome in the books, and why it could never have worked in the show

All that Syrio Forel had taught her went racing through her head. Swift as a deer. Quiet as shadow. Fear cuts deeper than swords. Quick as a snake. Calm as still water. Fear cuts deeper than swords. Strong as a bear. Fierce as a wolverine. Fear cuts deeper than swords. The man who fears losing has already lost. Fear cuts deeper than swords. Fear cuts deeper than swords. Fear cuts deeper than swords.

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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

I can see why it's a favorite. There's a lot to love in it - I just find that there's enough in it that brings it down a bit. This is a very good tier already. We're in the upper half now!
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

Roose Bolton is magnificent. This is the first really good look we get at him, and the dude just has this icy, rock-solid charisma to him. His voice is utterly commanding and his eyes are colorless and calculating. (Once again, how did this dude get iced by Ramsay? How did this dude hug Ramsay after threatening to disinherit him?) He's got a wonderful courtesy that accompanies his ruthlessness. (Jaime's red-blooded humanity contrasts wonderfully, too, as he wonders whether Roose will continue to 'watch him fail at breakfast' without his hand.)

The other defining scene of this arc occurs in Harrenhal, as well. That's Jaime and Brienne's bath, of course. Jaime reveals the reason he committed the murder that earned him his super-badass-but-actually-insulting nickname, the Kingslayer - not that his king was losing the war to his father (as everyone thinks), but that Aerys wanted to burn down King's Landing. And it's so Jaime not to tell anyone this to clear his name. With this dramatic emotional climax/reveal amid an arc full of high points, this could be one of the best arcs in the show. However, the scene is hilariously undermined by how obvious it is that camera is trying to avoid the naked bodies of its actors. This wouldn't be notable in any other show, but we're talking about f***ing Game of Thrones, which has always thrived on its nudity. The flagrant deviation here is kind of embarrassing and lessens the impact of the scene.

As a final note: the SUDDEN ROCK MUSIC after Jaime gets his hand cut off is one of the funniest not-in-universe tricks the show pulls. The dissonance is incredible.

Book notes: Jaime's POV narration is really well done. I imagine that GRRM finds it really easy to write the Lannisters, who tend to think modernly and deal with fairly comprehensible issues. They also generally have a sense of humor and the right degree of snarkiness for an author to have a good time.

While the show adapts this arc really well, I think that the books have a few cool points. The first half of the journey is condensed probably to the show's benefit, but Brienne is much more noticeably sympathetic in the books as someone who's shy and not just super-arrogant. And while I've already commented on Jaime's internal monologue, there are two 'best' parts of it - the first being his dream sequences that feature Eddard Stark and Arthur Dayne and his tumultuous guilt and questioning of what it means to be a knight. The second is the fact that he's physically aroused by Brienne. It's cool to read his misogynist thoughts, trying to reduce Brienne to a cow or swine, yet seeing the sensuous way in which their swordfight is depicted, or experiencing his disgust when her naked body turns him on.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness

22. The Worst Executed Escort Sidequest Ever (Season 3)

Key points: Acting on the orders of Catelyn Stark, Brienne of Tarth escorts the prisoner Jaime Lannister from the Stark prisons in Riverrun back to the Red Keep King's Landing. They encounter a few issues along the way, including angry Stark soldiers, rapists and raped corpses, a mercenary with a knife and a rope for storing hands, a warm bath, a bear for the maiden fair, and a lord happy to deliver the Lannisters' regards to Robb Stark.

Buddy cop is a fantastic comedy source. Clashing personalities lead to entertaining conflict, but the antagonism only strengthens the bond once they find their common cause. Brienne and Jaime certainly fit these roles well - at least the first part - with Brienne being the straight man and Jaime being the funny man. They play off each other pretty well with the actors' natural charisma.

The primary issue during the antagonist part is the way Brienne is handled. I've mentioned this before, but she's super-self-righteous, and she's basically as monstrous as the people she fights. She thinks nothing of killing people allied with Catelyn Stark (who kicks off this arc with the absolute worst decision she's ever made, and in a bulls*** off-screen sword-cut move, too). I'm happy with Brienne being a badass physically. But she's also completely without conscience, and the show makes no effort to indicate that she's an antihero at best due to the way she mutilates the rapists she comes across. And unfortunately, that dullness comprises the biggest part of their arc.

Once we move into the true adversity phase, that's where things actually start to get good. There's talk of Jaime's redemption, but aside from his becoming overall less of a jerkass and not pushing little kids out of windows, he has never been as much of a true 'good guy' as during this arc. He really does not need to lie on behalf of Brienne with the lie about the Sapphire Isle of Tarth, but some goodness randomly shows through. And later, when the roles are reversed, it's pure heroism when he jumps into the bear pit to fight off an infinitely superior foe.
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yet all sailors of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness