Lurker > Forceful_Dragon

IfGodCouldDie posted...

The cop would not recieve anything because they did not submit an action.

Vanilla Does Nothing
Cop Scans Vanilla
Bus Driver swaps Himself with Cop
Scum Blocker does not exist

In this scenario you think the cop would not receive a night action? I think cop would receive "vanilla is innocent" because not redirected their action away from the vanilla.

And if you change it to "Cop Scans Bus Driver" then the cop should receive "Cop is innocent" because their action got directed onto themselves, but it was still THEIR action.

In no scenario should the bus driver receive "so and so is innocent", just like in no scenario should the bus driver receive "you were roleblocked" on behalf of the cop.

IfGodCouldDie posted...

And this is why BCT should be the lynch. There is nothing about their claim that makes any sense.

I'd prefer that over myself, obviously, but following it through I'm still not sure what actually happened?

Scum BCT receives a coupon and says "well I'm not gonna use that, but I'll pretend I swapped myself and IGCD and then say I got blocked. That'll look like a thing that really happened, right?" But then who does scum blocker actually block? And what does BCT do instead? And where did the scum kill go?

And if he flips town all we learned is that hosts decided to resolve complex night actions in a way that doesn't feel very intuitive. He's less likely to flip town than I am, I just wish BCT being a liar explained more than it would.

IfGodCouldDie posted...

Meaning bus driver gets roleblocked assumes the cop sent a scan and claims the RB

And in that scenario what happens? Cop actually received a result? Because if cop was NOT blocked then the Bus Driver does not RECEIVE the cop's message. The driver doesn't receive "XX is Innocent/Guilty", right? So why would they receive "you were roleblocked"? Clearly they were NOT roleblocked if they bussed the roleblocker over to themselves.

PeaceFrog posted...

If him is bct here, weren't they on separate nights?
Igcd blocked n1, bct on n2

Yes, but what IGCD is saying is that that he (BCT) might be lying because he (BCT) might have assumed that he (IGCD) was going to take another night action tonight and that he (IGCD) would naturally be roleblocked again and so to sell his (BCT's) deception he (BCT) should claim he (BCT) received a roleblock message that would be a result of IGCD's roleblock being swapped onto him (BCT)

When in reality the whole bus driver + roleblock is a paradoxical clusterf*** because of the potential interactions. But BCT receiving a "you were roleblocked message" does not feel like it makes sense for ANY of the scenarios. He's either receiving IGCD's message, who shouldn't have one. Or BCT is receiving his own blocked message, even though the only way the block reaches him is AFTER the teleportation is successful.

But BCT claims that Crescent clarified that a block on the teleport target would result in a block to himself. (Which again, feels wrong)

My suggestion would be do it whenever you want and to find corrik or some other dead confirmed town saying something absolutely concrete that someone else could verify is something that is not fake and it something that you personally would not know.

Preferably corrik confirming some specific dialogue that he remembers from neighbor chat since that will allow either chang or myself to locate and verify it.

I understand it doesn't confirm your alignment one way or the other, but it would confirm that it's an actual role that actually exists which could still be relevant.

IfGodCouldDie posted...

and the scum team assumed I would receive one.

I still don't see why it would make sense for HIM to receive YOUR roleblock message in the event that you had one.

Imagine a different scenario with a bus driver who isn't bussing themselves.

Vanilla Does Nothing
Cop Scans Vanilla
Bus Driver Swaps Cop and Vanilla
Blocker blocks Cop

You think it makes sense for the Roleblock to happen before the Bus (stopping the cops scan) and then the Vanilla receives a "you were blocked" message?

Even if the Bus fully happened first then the Block would land on the vanilla (who would receive no message) and the cop would scan himself (having not been blocked because the bus directed the block to the vanilla)

UltimaterializerX posted...

and other than that its a lot of mafia players suck why do I do this to myself, etc

His suspicious day 2 seemed pretty clear at least.

So nothing plum said d2 pointed to power directly.

But in the dozen or so posts he had Plum was vocally against Peaf and Abacus(Isquen). If one or both of those suspicious is right then it could imply that scum believes Plum was regular ass cop leaving an easy breadcrumb to a night 1 guilty scan.

So in that lens Plum becomes a reasonable scum kill and could have stacked red's alleged vigi kill.

PeaceFrog posted...

I mean, obviously a scum (or more) is lying about something. But what? If this is an isquen ploy to go one for one... does he think we won't go after him tomorrow if you flip town? Is red actually bp sk and he was the target of scum last night, and knows that we'll spend tomorrow killing isquen when you flip town?

That's a big part of my worry. If this was some 5Head play where scum either no killed or targeted me and Isquen is legitimately JK then we could be mislynching on consecutive days. It would be much simpler for me if Isquen is just scum blocker, but that would be really ballsy of scum to pretend to put a block in the neighborhood that just had a watch-ability blow up in their faces.

So either a coincidence double kill on Plum or a no-kill? I just feel like there's some element I'm unaware of that would make this click into place better. Scum should not want to kill me so me being saved by isquen is low probability. They would also have just as much reason to be worried about being seen by Chang based on how day2 went. Scum shouldn't want to kill plum unless they hard read him as power? I guess I'll look through plum's D2 posts and see if there was anything juicy that might have pulled a shot towards him.

PeaceFrog posted...

If i got rid of town Sultan to save scum fd and spent almost the entire game railing against town Wallz... i don't know if I'll ever be the same

I don't know about the second part, but I am absolutely town. A fact that doesn't seem like enough to prevent my lynch today.

IfGodCouldDie posted...

Ok ill go first.

Luigi, TOWN semi-competent backup.

I can take a power from any dead town and I get 1 shot. If I am roleblocked or in any way prevented from getting my ability off I lose it.

Which part is being roleblocked if you get roleblocked?

The part where you take someone's power? Or the part where you use the power? And does it even matter if you're out of uses regardless? Presumably you would have been asked to take an action last night if you had one to take?

Anyways I think red was pressing about your "only get 1 shot" verbage since he has a role that allows him to get an extra shot for being successful with the first one. Probably wonders what would happen if you had taken vigi from him and shot scum with it since the role you'd be stealing specifically details providing an additional action under certain circumstances.

IfGodCouldDie posted...

what I am curious about is if he got the message

Yes, he claimed he DID receive a roleblock message.

But he shouldn't be receiving that on behalf of you, because your own non action wouldn't have prompted a message to be swapped. And his own action must have already succeeded if he's receiving a block meant for you.

It does not make sense.

Leafeon13N posted...

Game state was pretty much set when i claimed and then isquen claimed. Because at that point you looked pretty damned fd.

If they had something to refute that the opportunity was there.

Okay then leave me alone? You consider me damned with no chance of proving I'm town, so just go prepare to watch the ball game. We shouldn't be hammering today anyways and you've said your piece. Meanwhile I'm going to continue to try and prove my innocence and make sense of all this.

IfGodCouldDie posted...

BCT got a teleport from death, which he used to switch places with me and recieved a RB message despite me not submitting an action?

There are two different schools of thoughts on how to resolve a Bus + Roleblock and BCT is claiming that they've gone with the weird one.

A Blocks C
B Swaps self with C
=
Scenario 1: C gets blocked (nothing happens) THEN B and C switch places. No one gets notified of a block
OR
Scenario 2: B and C switch places (successfully) THEN A's block lands on B instead of C. B gets a message they were roleblocked despite having succesfully swapped places.

BCT is claiming Scenario 2 occurred, which feels like the wrong way to resolve that to me personally. But it could just be down to host's discretion.

Leafeon13N posted...

They have both posted since game state was mostly laid out.

Since Isquen claimed to JK me, yes.

That doesn't magically mean Isquen was telling the truth. And it doesn't mean they don't have something else they could say that would cause something that's been said since then to be proven false.

Neither has posted since the first claim (Post #402 of topic 4), around 2 hours and 20 minutes ago. So your assumption that they are definitely caught up on the claims and would have chimed in if their own information was relevant seems fundamentally flawed.

Leafeon13N posted...

Ctes and sheep have both been sround if they had something game changing to contribute they would have.

Neither has posted in this topic and it's possible neither has posted since the claiming started so that's a weird thing to say. You chatting with them somewhere else?

Leafeon13N posted...

In no world should anyone doubt isquen at this point.

Like. I commend the attempt fd but no.

I doubt him more than I doubt myself.

I also can't explain why scum would target me, but it stands to reason that either

1) They targeted me and I was protected
2) Isquen is lying and didn't JK me
3) Something else entirely

And no, I don't know what it could be, but I know that you're killing town if you lynch me and that's enough for me to try to stop that from happening.

So yeah, maybe BG + Single BP + JK is too much? BG + Single use BP then doesn't feel like enough, but I guess if Plum was immune to the extra kill then that's something.

We still need to hear from ctes and sheep. But here's an update for the new page:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/6/6/8/AAXBdhAAE7Gs.png

Leafeon13N posted...

You are scum because scum wouldnt shoot you and you are the only thing accounting for a lack of kill.

ASSUMING Isquen is telling the truth.

And ASSUMING there isn't any other unknown information that would account for it.

And even assuming that scum even sent in a kill last night. It would be foolish not to, so this one isn't very likely, but to ME it is more likely than me being scum because I know already that I'm not.

Leafeon13N posted...

I dont know shit about this but i think this kills your own argument because they have yo put them in the loop first.

Flavor arguments are typically stupid but this one doesn't even help your point.

My base level take, regardless of flavor, is that it's an extra kill and kills go through mindful.

But again, if we assume you're right and they interact, then that's great. Interaction between specific scum/town roles is expected to exist. I'm not going to pretend to know with certainty that Mindful was immune to Looper though and will continue to consider that there is a scum role out there that gives Mindful an more certain upside.

Leafeon13N posted...

Great your investedin the game goodjob that makes you town.

the part about not knowing I was a JK target maybe? Just gonna skip that part?

But sure, for the sake of argument let's say that we know with 100% certainty that Looper could be prevented by Mindful. Then great, that's interaction between roles, that's good.

That doesn't make me scum for expecting to see similar interaction between dumey's powers and what is being claimed by town.

Leafeon13N posted...

Plum specifically said he could be shot. Looper with its wording says it acts if they were killed in the prior day phase, but this is very specifically not called an extra shot. It is an " as if" not a "is shot".

You're right, in the movie looper they just slap someone into a time machine and they drop dead from "time manipulation" when they show appear in the past.

oh wait, no, that's right. They shoot them with a big ass gun:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/6/6/1/AAXBdhAAE7Gl.jpg

Leafeon13N posted...

You haven't provided any reasonable alternative to why there was no scum kill.

This is the most damning evidence against you.

And I'm trying, but just because there's not a good reason doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Someone must be lying about something and without knowing some crucial information I can't be expected to provide foolproof evidence on behalf of myself.

I personally KNOW with rock hard certainty that I'm town, and while I respect that you can't know that with that same confidence, I'm not playing like someone who isn't invested in this game and I'm not playing like someone who expected to have it revealed that they were in a jail cell last night. You can bet your ass I would have had something prepped for Isquen's claim instead of spinning like a top.

Leafeon13N posted...

Plum presumably could not be looped. So this is false already.

How so? Loop sounds like an extra kill and Plum could be killed. Maybe he would die without traveling through time?

Leafeon13N posted...

Honestly it isn't meant for you to know right now it is something i can elaborate on after you are flipped.

If you get me lynched today I'm 100% flipping town. So if you're actually town vigi you're making life harder on yourself right now and I feel like I'm the only one trying to solve this crap.

ctes and sheep are the only empty boxes left.

two of the OG slackers from day 1 (well Mzero at least, not sheep)

Leafeon13N posted...

Yeah i think i see your gaming from a scum side with this post FD. Nice try.

What does this mean?

I know for a fact that Dumey's role exists because he died and it was reveaele.
It stands to reason that town has some level of interaction for each level of Dumey's power.

So if there is protection that DOES create counterplay with Dumey's power and protection that DOES NOT create counterplay, then I am more inclined to believe in the one that creates counterplay with the role that is confirmed to exist.

That's not me having a scum perspective, that's me, as town, using information available from role flips to try and discern what must exist to justify the roles that have been confirmed.

It's the exact same as trying to figure out what other mafia roles must exist to justify Plum's role. Neither of the two we've seen interact with "Mindful" at all, so whatever else is out there must involve some level of interaction with plum's role.

JK and BG and single use BP feels like a lot.

And you have to "activate" your single use of BP? If you catch a stray before activation you just die?

No proper doc obviously, but it's still a lot of prot, but it gives some additional interaction to Dumey with 3 points so I don't hate it.

htaeD posted...

I mean neither should IGCD IMO
But based on his claim, he cant receive such a message anyway

Right, in the scenario where BCT busses himself and IGCD (and IGCD is targeted by a scum block) then neither of them should receive a RB message.

BCT because his action would have to be successful to cause the block to reach him and IGCD because he was not attempting a night action.

In this situation IGCD would get a roleblock message night 1 and neither of them would get a RB message night 2. The RB is either hitting a no-action town or a post-action busser.

BlueCrystalTear posted...

but why would scum RB me, a claimed vanilla, when they thought IGCD had scanning powers and there might be some kind of threat?

Thanks kind of what we've been wondering all day, yes. It didn't make sense and ONLY makes sense in the framework of incorrectly resolved night actions.

You should not receive a "you were roleblocked" message if it was your own successful night action that caused the roleblock to hit you.

BlueCrystalTear posted...

I asked Crescent. If I targeted someone who was roleblocked, I would bring the roleblock onto myself.

Please learn to read.

I missed the part where you clarified this.

I guess I just assumed the hosts would be resolving night actions correctly. My bad?

BlueCrystalTear posted...

Thus, the scum RB blocked me instead, and Wall bodyguarded me instead.

Doesn't fit.

Role block should happen before teleporter

BlueCrystalTear posted...

Meanwhile I'm pretty convinced you're scum. And it's not just because you're doubting me. It's because of, well, everything. This feels like you're trying to impersonate me when I get dysregulated

Impersonate you how? Very little of my posts today have anything to do with you, but that's what you've latched onto and have been responding to. Meanwhile I'm trying to put the entire game in perspective because I know if I'm going to avoid being mislynched today I have to get to the bottom of last night only having a single kill.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/6/3/2/AAXBdhAAE7GI.png

Heading out to lunch for a bit but this should be up to date again.
I think we're just missing a claim from ctes and Sheep now.

changmas posted...

is it bad form for me to tag him? lol

CORRIK IF YOU ARE READING THIS POST SOMETHING IN THE DEAD CHAT YOU REMEMBER FROM OUR NEIGHBOR CHAT

maybe one of the gifs you sent or something equally unguessable

Most of the gifs were from you >_>

BlueCrystalTear posted...

And I'm the one you call "emotional."

Hypocrite.

You ARE emotional.

And i never claimed I wasn't emotional so that doesn't make me a hypocrite. I'm not criticizing you for having emotions, I'm criticizing you for being utterly unable to distance yourself from your emotions and have thoughts and opinions that aren't entirely based on them.

You'll notice that I think you're being dumb but I"m not VOTING you because I'm not convinced you are scum. I"m just convinced you're a bad player regardless of alignment which is why I would not give you powers.

But other than this edge case of being able to confirm the role of a dead person who didn't flip (due to scum looper), what other benefit do you expect to have by waiting to do your death dive?

PeaceFrog posted...

Death Diver
I can look at dead town chat once per game, for up to two hours. If I'm in longer or go in more than once, i get modkilled and day immediately ends, if it's during day time.

This is another uninformed DTC then? I thought those were supposed to be rare?

BlueCrystalTear posted...

FD is very very anti-town and needs to die today. The fact that he doesn't trust my judgment further shows that he's not in a town-friendly mindset. He might as well be confirmed scum at this point.

What have you done at any point to give me a reason to trust you?

What have you EVER done except call me scum for pressuring you?

Not this game, not last game. I apply pressure, you call me scum. And guess what, you're wrong both times. We told you last game that you need to be able to look past someone pressuring you, and it seemed like you took that message to heart, but if you're actually town (and you might be) then you did not come nearly as far as you needed to.

I'm trying to SOLVE shit and put pieces together. That you can call me anti-town just because I don't think you deserve to be granted powers is hilarious.

So if IGCD was targeted with a roleblocker then we would expect the teleport to be successful, and then roleblock to "successfully" target BCT, but only after his teleportation, in which case BCT would not receive a blocked message.

It would only happen if BCT was directly targetted with the roleblock and then it lands before the teleportation?

Most stuff online seems to agree that the roleblock should resolve first, but if that's the case then the roleblock should "successfully" target IGCD in which case BCT would never receive a blocked message.

htaeD posted...

You should add that I gave BCT a self busdrive, FD

Got it

htaeD posted...

To clarify: BCT had to busdrive someone with Himself

Death can I get clarification on this clarification.

Are you saying BCT HAD to attempt to use his item?

Or he could have chosen not to use it, but if he DECIDED to use it then he had to busdrive himself?

Either way it's not the redirection I was hoping for since it still doesn't explain how a block ended up on BCT.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/6/2/0/AAXBdhAAE7F8.png

I believe this is up to date with our claims so far.

We're on page 10 btw. This topic is gonna fill up if we don't wait for a new one. I'm gonna stop posting until next topic.

IfGodCouldDie posted...

When I use the players power it is a 1 time use. Not a full back up. If it gets roleblocked or stopped in anyway I don't get another opportunity to use it.

And you can only imitate one single person for the entire game?

Like you don't get to be Sultan's back up one time? And then someone else's backup one time (once another town power dies) ?

htaeD posted...

It was a teleport... aka a busdrive

Swap two different people with each other?

Or swap himself with one other person?

IfGodCouldDie posted...

Anyone want to do a claims list so we know who we are missing?

I've been updating my spreadsheet as we go, I'm waiting for the next topic to post an update though.

htaeD posted...

The coupon for BCT was one that had to be spent that same night or else it would evaporate.

If it's evaporated you may as well reveal it?