Lurker > Lopen

Devil May Cry
Final Fantasy XII

20

Good player in general

Shit tier this game

Is what I'm saying

Dead town chat is always the smartest about what they came into knowing and would never change any of their reads they got right.

But if you were that good you'd actually get a correct lynch in two tries. Simple as. I could just as easily see you having a 4 scum list and putting 3 scum 1 town and mislynching again due to continuing the passive play you'd displayed in game.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

My logic on Chang, BCT, Sultan, You, Hb (and Abacus), Peaf, Poppy, Ben was all correct

My point is it's harder to keep it correct if you're in the game solving and don't have alignments in front of you.

Like we literally have multiple examples of you in game having the correct read and losing it on less.

And that's why dead town chat generally comes off as jerks btw.

Because anyone can be right about something at point of death. But being able to keep being sure you're right in the face of new events like a cop scan innocent or an amazing fake claim or even just scum picking up their game and seeming more townish and/or town slacking and coming off more scummish.

Very few can do that. But people in dead town chat will delude themselves into thinking every right read they had will stick through the whole game if they were still alive. This is made worse still because the "better" players typically get shot earlier and because people in dead town chat don't generally follow the game all that well so they're not really absorbing what's happening that well.

You push two town lynches when alive and don't leave a very clear and convincing road map to the rest of the scum when you die, you had a bad game. Doesn't matter how right you are on death cause no guarantee you convert any of those if you don't get your reads immediately verified at point of your death.

Like pretty much everyone targeted him with the watch trap

It's because the claim was very good if you don't have a guide telling you it's fake, not because everyone alive is bad at the game.

I'm saying detecting Chang as scum days 1-2 and detecting Chang as scum post claim (without a cheatsheet in front of you) are completely different things and you are literally doing exactly what you always accuse me of in games where I spectate (games where I don't have a cheatsheet so worse really)

Evidence is on my side too. I've done well in mafia on b8. It's just that you've got people like you and red who spread the idea that I'm not good at the game and perception becomes reality at some level.

I'm just saying even good players can have bad games and you were the one who put it so far behind early. I'm not saying you're bad at the game, just that you're in no position to speak about town being bad this game..

Actually I worked with you fine in this game. You are the one who got tilted. I went for pressure on you and only started that when you town cleared scum. That's all. Pressure is healthy.

I'm sorry you OMGUS when I suspect you and refuse to reciprocate trying to work with me. Suspicion does not mean I am absolutely going to lynch you. I had you as scum early day 2 but absolutely did not push to lynch you at any point

Because there is a lot more to the game than reads. Someday you'll get good enough at the game to realize that even if you can guess the scumteam in dead town chat you can have had a bad game in spite of that.

Listen man I'm not saying you weren't killed for a reason. My point is you'd be considered to be killed regardless of if your reads were 4/4 or 2/4. You posted it yourself--- you and Peaf were in consideration "for being smart." Smart players correct their reads over time if wrong so are considered at all points.

But that your actual play did little to contribute to the game. The reason hb isn't considered is they think they can lock him down with roleblocker and they only need one mislynch to win and think they can make him look bad when he repeatedly claims roleblocked.

If anything your reads being right had them nearly consider killing Peaf instead so as to not validate your reads. That's literally in the transcript you posted. Because it's not really about the reads at all. They speculated you held back on Kirby suspicion-- which maybe you did and look at how that worked out to help town solve

And for a guy lecturing about teamwork count the amount of bending I did to hear you out vs the amount of bending you did to hear me out in the game. I'm not the one with the teamwork problem here. I will absolutely go towards other leads if people push them and make any sort of sense because pressure generates content.

Also do realize I didn't dunk on you until you made it painfully obvious that you really wanted town to lose so you could say how bad I am at mafia lmao

No. Hb was left alive because scum thought stupid Lopen would get him mislynched. Not because of you.

And if you realize your town read on Kirby is bad we have scum dead day 1 too

Works both ways homie

Scum can claim it mattered but ultimately it didn't. Because hb didn't make those scans because of any case you made.

Also I will say that part of mafia is just pressure

Like you can laugh that I suspected BCT the day before last I but I actually suspected him less than I let on. Building the massive case was to see how BCT reacted and town reacted. Kirby being convinced, by me, that BCT was scum that's how Kirby was caught

Corrik7 posted...

And honestly, possibly not even an intentional trick

Was absolutely intentional. I was taunting Kirby to rile him up and dramatically taking my time so scum would be there to hammer if they existed (and to build tension for Sultan to unvote if town). Again would have had it as BCT > Chang > Abacus at the time and was surprised it was Chang (or any of them) but I wasn't gonna risk the game on that either.

Like I said lots of pieces to what I was doing.

Anyway if that's the best Han's played he really is overhyped that's all I gotta say. Not a good game from him. You can say he took command but I didn't see it and his legacy was pushing two town lynches. You can have all the great reads in the world but if you don't lynch any nor build the case on any it's valueless.

Anyway hb was mvp of the game, Peaf #2

I'm #3 imo. But I did have a good game and managed to redeem the early game. I won't be besmirched and told I didn't.

I just want Han to bark like a dog for me then we can move on.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Actually, being right about things DID matter.

Scum was afraid of me because I was closely on the mark. So they shot me instead of the Cop, while Doctor was dead.

If Scum wasn't afraid of me, then they shoot Hb N2, and he doesn't get off TWO Scum scans.

If you want to spin it that way I was more useful than you because they left hb alive cause they thought they could use me as a wrecking ball to lynch him not because they thought you were more dangerous than a cop

Nooo lol

Han supposedly had 3 scum and 1 town in his list day 2

Settled for the 1 town in a very low energy lynch that I basically drove because Han was just like not doing anything to consolidate lynches

That's all I need to know to know he had no fire. He shouldn't need more data he already solved the game supposedly

Kirby321 posted...

I don't care how long you've known Han or whatever, but it's completely unfair that you're inflating your ego while putting down Han because of things you were able to do that Han had absolutely no chance of doing this game. You're a hypocrite for judging Han on his D1 and D2 gameplay and then praising yourself for having just as a bad of a show if not worse because you redeemed yourself after Han died.

It is based on this game not any history. Han showed no fire that he could push any lynch but the lowest of hanging fruit.

Like let me tell you

I was fully ready to back you as town until you backed off of Kirby (scum) for the most insignificant and irrelevant of reasons

That was you, man. If anything you dragged me down.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

I was worse this game because you pulled me down

Lol

Take the L dude

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Anyway, I never argued I had a good game. I just argued my reads were correct. And I win that argument!

Okay great! I don't care if your reads were good because you only ever lynched your reads that weren't

Kirby321 posted...

But let's not forget that even with your guilty scan on Ben, Lopen still didn't believe you.

I wanted mass. If no other scanner that isn't Ben's ridiculous watcher claim I believe it by default. Because Ben's claim had so many holes I didn't require mass.

It is smart to not believe a cop scan when one mislynch loses the game before mass.

If the cop is a fakeclaim scum just auto wins.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Like, this horseshit about 'knowing' what I'd do on D4, 'guaranteed'?

You backed off of Kirby for way less than a cop scan

You never push him through a cop scan. 0%.

Like if I die night 2 I'd say I had a bad game. Because believe it or not I'm not as conceited about my skill in this game as you think.

If Han dies night 2 I say he has a bad game. And he did. Unless there is a role that can communicate with the dead naming a scumteam in dead town chat is worth exactly nothing.

Here is my assessment of play

Me and Han sucked day 1. Han arguably sucked more because he let scum go and started a flash wagon on the doctor.
Me and Han sucked day 2. I sucked a LOT more due to white knighting scum and trying to push cop.

Day 3 and Day 4 are basically AutoPilot for the lynches but being able to rally town to not lynch BCT, get BCT to try and participate, and push through a gf scan are not something I have faith Han successfully does. If I'm alive he probably gets paranoid of me eventually. If I'm dead he probably just accepts the cop scan and lynches Sultan.

But he'll keep thinking he had a great game because he named all 4 scum upon death. Shame that's not how you win though.

I don't feel good about winning that way. I think Chang deserved the win.

I do feel good about correctly sticking to my guns on scanned Kirby

And I have no doubts you never lynch scanned Kirby. You just had no fire to push anyone but easy targets. If I die instead of you endgame resolves identically but you just lynch Sultan. Very confident in that. You showed nothing in this game that has me think you have the assertiveness to push Chang's great fakeclaim or a cop scan. Having the right read at a moment in time and keeping that read till endgame are very different things.

Like I said you can blame me, or you be accountable and wonder why you didn't push any correct lynches despite knowing who all the scum were. There is more to the game than identifying scum.

Like if Han survives n2 and say Abacus dies

Han lynches me over you no questions asked. Guaranteed. Town just loses.

Like the biggest reason people thought Chang was town Han had a cheatsheet for that's what I'm saying

Han didn't have a town scan on Kirby to battle

Naming all the scum upon death means squat if your legacy in life is driving two town mislynches. I don't think Han has the audacity to push you through a town scan on you. He had already proven spineless this game and was constantly doubting himself

Naming all the scum doesn't mean a damn thing if you don't get any lynched.

I'm saying being alive makes you doubt reads too

I don't think Han wins if he survives till endgame. The fact is I did. Simple as.

Han lost the game because he was aching for something lord over me again and still isn't accepting he had a bad game LOL

[0] Satan (Ghosts n Goblins)

Note also you're the one who got the Sbell lynch going too

So you basically you're the main reason town was immediately in lylo

Never thought I'd see someone who did that be so confident in their abilities after a game. First time for anything.

Like in mafia

If you don't push for a lynch it doesn't matter for anything but to make yourself feel good about how you played the game.

Period. If you suspect 3 scum 1 town and don't actively push for one of the scum, your day is as damaging as someone who suspects 1 scum 3 town and pushes for the lynch of a town.

You can always reassess your suspect list at the end of each day. More data comes in. More ways to digest the existing data. In dead town chat, you don't know how you react to new data because you spoil yourself and have all the data available to you upon death.

But yeah the reassessment point that's the main reason why I say scum threw. They were dumb if they thought I just keep pushing for hb blindly without mass at lylo. And if they think I lynch uncountered cop at mass? Get out of here.

(And really you cutting the momentum on Kirby day 1 was as bad for the game as me cutting the momentum off Ben day 2-- do think we could make a strong push on Kirby if you don't randomly start to townread him for some weird reason)

Like I'm not saying you were wrong

I'm saying you didn't push for any of your other lynches, so saying "you were okay with Chang Ctes Poppy, Ben" and pushing hardest for Ctes makes you just as wrong as anyone else

Further your assessment of Chang is irrelevant because everyone who thought he was for sure town (pretty much everyone in the game-- BCT only one doubting) thought he was town because of his claim which you were guffawing in dead town chat about how obviously bad the claim was because you had a scum list in front of you.

You said Kirby was town

Also if you really want to stretch Han was another possible mislynch there. Probably as likely as Chang at that point.

I agree. It is why you as an informed observer thought he was obvious scum the whole time though. But it is not a good way to play that game state and would lose you the game more often than not.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

It was that they weren't tied, was the argument. If Ctes wasn't Scum, then that means the alternate lynch on D1 was likely Scum Chang.

Or scum Kirby
Or scum Ben

They all had murmurings as possible lynches by end of day aside from Poppy.

All of them being scum was correct but imo if you always make that assumption in a town-town end of day wagon you will hit a town more often than not and we couldn't afford to.

Like to me best vanilla play is

1. Try hard to win and town clear yourself by effort put in or catching scum. That's how you draw shots.

2. If you can't do that, be as honest as soon as it becomes remotely necessary to because otherwise you're just cutting down time for town to solve the game. Panicked town will get the lynch wrong most of the time.

Scum never shoots you or Sultan ever in this game. Trying to imply a faked power role is great unless you're faking it on someone who's town then scum knows you're lying and town doesn't and it makes town look bad. And odds are, you will do that because there are twice as many town.

ctesjbuvf posted...

See Lopen thsi is why you don't claim vanilla first chance.

I would argue Sultan did not play vanilla well tbh. He kept that going so long it made him look suspicious needlessly.

And I'm not necessarily saying dvc was harsh-- I don't read it. I'm just saying I get the vibe that some people really wanted town to lose to lord over "bad play" from some of the reactions in here.

I feel like hosts are guilty of the informed observer situation just as conceited town can be

Pretty much every time I've fake claimed as scum/sk and won I've had the host say how bad the claim was unless I claimed vanilla

But like yeah the things for me believing a fakeclaim are this (aside from obvious balance/setup meta)

1. Do the actions line up with how you'd expect a player who drew the role to play. What really sold me is Chang was like obsessed with trying to make his role matter and was trying to use it to solve the game. I also doubted hb because I can't imagine a cop ever trying to claim 2 people are scum because of them scanning a player innocent-- still can't but oh well.

2. How is easy is it to fake. In a sense this was easy to fake in that town couldn't verify any info, but in a sense it wasn't because there was just so much detail in it and he had elements that could be called on like "I have a self destruction trap from Corrik"

3. Does it help town at all. This is what we SHOULD have caught Chang on because man the cards were kinda just pointless (I didn't like the cards much as an aside it just felt like there was no point to them other than catching people lying about them)

I do feel like the process tends to work and my success rate on catching scum fake claims is higher than B8s on the whole. Yes sometimes you put more pressure on a legitimate claim that it should have but that can give material to solve the game too.

Yeah Chang it was good enough to give literally anyone on earth pause except Han and probably Red so you did great.

He can be scum but if you don't know he's scum you're more inclined to doubt the read in the face of that amazing fakeclaim

You are literally doing the exact thing you always claim I do here lol

Only an informed observer would call the game solved in the face of that godlike Chang fakeclaim

Like yes there are minor holes you can poke in it but it being so elaborate, detailed, and balanced in the setup is hard to argue against on its face. Harder to argue against than a literal town scan in fact. If you don't know Chang is scum you're not thinking he's obvious scum at all.

Now don't get me wrong I had town read on Ben (and Chang) which is a huge misplay. I did not play day 2 well at all.

But I don't claim ownership of lynching Ctes at all. That lynch was not primarily my idea and I do think town can overrule me outright on Ben, or can pivot to Poppy or Kirby if they actually you know, tried. Like I would have fought Ben's lynch but the other two not so much.

ctesjbuvf posted...

Yeah Lopen, good job coming around in the end, might have been a bit harsh in dead town chat when you were confidentially off and didn't use the information from my lynch, but I was also right that town's hope was you coming around and you were getting there (and won the game I suppose, just not in a way I imagined).

Also like

I don't know how you say we didn't use that

That was my "smoking gun" on Kirby, Poppy not pushing for that lynch and pivoting to Sbell.

And the next step is to extend that and realize Chang didn't either. Do we get there? Who knows. But the information was usable.

I also don't know why I get credit for lynching you when I would have preferred hb or Kirby as lynches at the time and the only reason I pushed to consolidate the wagon on you was to compromise with Han. Who I'm sure of course blamed me for the lynch entirely.

Thanks Sultan. I think you're really good too if you don't get brain locked into a theory like finding a BCT tell or lying about a pineapple. That would be the big thing to takeaway from the game-- if you've got one major thing convincing you someone is scum try to remove that and see if you're still sure.

And you all hating on it like, I do think how I built up the gambit is something that not just anyone can do. There is a very specific way you have to execute that for people to both forget their old vote and get hyped to hammer immediately. People saying anyone can do that are underselling my mastery of bullshitting.