Lurker > HanOfTheNekos

If you're Scum right now, I'm gonna kick your ass

Peace___Frog posted...

It's possible. And maybe Han is my scum mate and orchestrated the tie to begin with.

Yeah, it would sort of imply that. Or maybe Kirby who voted earlier...?

Anyway, I want to point out that Ulti said he was a Star Spirit yesterday, and at some point Ben said "BUT I AIN'T GOING TO SCAN ULTI DESPITE THAT BEING MY ROLE'S PURPOSE"

Which like, doesn't tie them together in case one of them gets lynched because Ben doesn't have to have a stance on "Ulti lying" or "Ulti truth".

What I'm saying is it looks bad.

Here's a Peaf as Scum scenario:

Peaf, Hb, and Plum all Scum.

Peaf tried to play it cool at eod1 for Townpoints. Then the tie happened.
Hb said he was going to lynch Peaf, knowing he would never pull the trigger.
He knew this because Scummate Plum was ready to save Peaf.

At least at this pace, I'll be able to put together my breakdown before the mass happens.

Ctes, want to claim for me after I claim for you?

Kirby321 posted...

... In hindsight, I should've waited for Dumey to be online and posting before claiming. Oh well.

yeah, look at Dumey DODGING you right now while he thinks of a fakeclaim (this is a joke)

I would not believe all vanillas are Star Spirits.
I do believe all Star Spirits are Town.

Peace___Frog posted...

That's fine. I accept that ben in isolation without Sultan still has valid usefulness - which you'll realize is exactly what i said to you when you pushed me on "what if sultan is lynched day 1, what value does Ben add".

Well, when viewed entirely through the lens of "just for Sultan", it makes sense. I needed a little time to take a step back and open my mind.

And also sleep.

And yes Peaf, I realize that argument ties in for your explanation utilizing Sultan. I just don't think connecting it with Sultan is any different than connecting it with, say, JC and his claimed scans.

Ha, I ninja'd Peaf.

Chaeix posted...

Does lynching Hb or Peaf test Ben?

Bens role only makes sense if all vanillas are star spirits. I refuse to believe the utility was in relation to Mario/Sultan.

Maybe Peaf doesnt want Ben lynched because it exposes his claim.

gah my head is spinning this is a hard day.

The reason to believe Ben is not in relation to Mario.
It's to believe Ben's role is "weak ass Cop".

A cop who, if Peaf is right, gets an innocent role from only 4 Town players.

Not as terrible as an Insane Cop! But not as good as a regular Cop.

Like, here's the sitch Plum - I'm not sure what you've been right about this game. Most of the time I read posts from you, it seems like you're wildly off-base. Now, I had in my mind because I Townread you earlier that this matches up with your Townplay, because I don't recall you being accurate as Town. But now I am reconsidering it because I can't ever link up with your mindset. Which is the direct opposite of Red, who I feel like everything he has said this game has been sensible, and I get.

I'm not letting you die here, Plum lol

Do you think you are currently being lynched?

Do you think I needed to respond to that post from JC? Don't you realize it's better to see your reaction to that post? Do you think I am a historian with perfect memory of your opinions on claims from every game?

Your argument here is baseless.

masterplum posted...

Yeah nah

##unvote
##Vote:Han

literally 2 games ago I refused to claim as town citing my hatred of claims and Han and I had a back and forth on this

There is no way that Town let's this conversation go down

IIRC, I was using my death at Ulti's hands, who tried to lynch me when I didn't want to claim, and didn't claim, as a reason to tell you why you should.

I don't want to claim Ctes stuff now, not to save my life, but because it's better for Town, and in particular, JC.

masterplum posted...

I hate mass claims what sort of crazy gas lighting from JC and Han is this.

I didn't say anything about you and mass claiming.

UltimaterializerX posted...

Justin bit without reading I glanced at vote totals, said his looked the worst, and you called me out for this even though your first wall D2 called Justin scum. That doesnt track.

Man, I literally responded to this already.
I didn't call you out. You asked "Why are people on Justin; I don't see it" And I used your statement of "The vote looks the worst" as a shorthand answer.

I stand by it - I don't think JC looked good at end of day 1.

Peace___Frog posted...

The fact that no one is joining me on kirby at all just makes me more confident there btw. Han took the air out of the room and made it all about him, but Kirby should absolutely be considered for today.

I didn't mean to!

UltimaterializerX posted...

For the record, Han despises mass claims as scum because its the one thing that always catches him.

This is literally a lie.

EDumey posted...

Let me ask you this, Han.

You said on that day that often Scum have been caught doing lazy livereads.
You currently have a read on Ulti because of his liveread and conclusions thereafter.
If Ulti had not done the liveread, and instead had made a measured calculated catchup post saying, "I am caught up and these are my thoughts," you may not have been able to make this read.
From a town perspective, was Ulti's liveread useful to you in determining his alignment?

Again, I'm not gonna commit to a big back and forth on this, because we don't need to relitigate all this info we've been over before. But it is astounding to me that you are currently making a read off of Ulti's liveread, and then also taking the position that his live read was just noise. It is contradictory.

Read the statement as "I feel bad about Ulti because he was fluffposting instead of actively trying to hunt Scum".

That's how I'm seeing it, anyway, atm.

Chaeix posted...

I get the difference between situations, I just dont know if I agree with the suggestion that scum Kirby would get off you because they felt he had enough info, specifically because youre denying information.

I haven't really thought about your question that much.

I suppose the other reason could be the same as Ulti - I said I'm confirmed Town courtesy of Ctes. Town would tend to disbelieve without more information. With the confidence I've had, Scum would know, since I'm Town, that what I say is true. They know pushing me is just going to reveal that Ctes and I are Townfriends with you.

Maybe they're glad to deny Town more information, and think that it's letting us fight a bunch. This makes sense especially if Dumey were Town.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Ulti, I have a question:

1. You felt strongly that Sultan was Scum during your whole reread - why not vote him when you were caught up?

Another question:

2. If you are truly Misstar, then why did you feel your claim was what proved Ben's role as existing? We already have a dead Star Spirit, courtesy D1. Seems odd to throw yourself in like that.

When Scum had nothing but nilla claims on the board, you were the first power claim. That gives them enough to go on, wrt you.

Wrt Ctes, denial of information has a specific and clear purpose.

Chaeix posted...

Han this probably isnt helpful but I actually did timestamp Ben while we were waiting for him and he hadnt been online since a few minutes before my claim.

But also the timestamp was 3 minutes before his last post so uh I think thats just yet another reason to completely discount time stamps

I didn't mean his actual profile, just the stamps of his posts. That is in-game information, and why I'm okay with talking about it.

A Scumben could be fed info on Scumboard. It's a possibility. But I also am okay discounting the time portion here, I just brought it up because it was where I was reading at the time.

Chaeix posted...

It does strike me as strange than Han is going after apparently scum Kirby who is actually one of the few people who believed him enough to unvote.

Why wouldnt scum Kirby stay on allegedly confirmed town Han to force the claim?

Because Scum feels they have enough info?
It's why that plum post stuck out to me: "Please do not claim more". JC had already claimed "Town Power" by that point. That's enough for Scum to utilize and then play the "Town wants to deny Scum info" card.

(yes I'm aware of how that interacts with me and how I'm playing this day, don't say it)

If we want to play timestamps on posts:

Ben last spoke about JC claiming before him 11 minutes before JC popped in to claim.

Ben's next post was 32 minutes after JC claimed Town Power.

I'll be honest though, I'm slowly angling away from thinking Ben is Scum. And it's thanks to Sultan's logic, not Peaf's :P

masterplum posted...

Please do not claim more, why

I don't like this plum post, but that might just be confirmation bias at this point.

Peace___Frog posted...

I want to say, dumey attacked Kirby for basically the same thing he attacked me for on day 1 - "stifling discussion".

For the record, i think it's good for Ulti to have his opinions out there, so that we can go back to them later. But i think Kirby also has merit with respect to Ulti, because Ulti was giving out very strong and bold statements on what appeared to be a whim, but in a way that is very easy for him to walk back from. His initial formatting of it all made it more confusing and very noisy, in a way that was reminiscent of how Chang and hb got frustrated with lopen last game.

All that is to say - kirby's frustration does not indicate alignment for me, but it is interesting that you've fallen back on that logic twice now, dumey.

This is what I'm trying to focus on, because it's sticking out.
Ulti gave a bunch of bold statements. Then ended up on Ben. And he didn't post any conclusions or synthesis at the end of his reread either.

Like, Kirby was the clear winner in his debate with Dumey - Ulti's posts ended up being noise that didn't synthesize into a current game state read.

Ulti, I have a question:

1. You felt strongly that Sultan was Scum during your whole reread - why not vote him when you were caught up?

Chaeix posted...

Well red semantics aside, Han my game state is that I am humble enough to admit I have no fucking clue and thats why I want information. If Im wrong about you then Im probably wrong about a lot of things.

HOWEVER Ive been doing a lot of thinking about how everyone is just letting plum slide by, I think maaaaybe one person was actively suspecting plum in recent memory?? My memory sucks as we all know though so open to correction.

Good scum keeps all unconfirmed and unclaimed town in the suspect pile, so its strange that plum isnt getting mentioned, all the while people are actively discussing Hb going well we really should be reconsidering our early town read of him. Why not the same for plum?

I'll be honest, I was feeling similarly as I read through. Like... the argument that Plum is Town for saving Peaf makes sense (though imo the same argument applies to me). But also, Plum hasn't done much, and any time he's said anything, I've just mainly disagreed with it? Reading back, he sort of sticks out for not seeming particularly contributing.

Of course, if I do normal PoE, I still exclude him from Scum for now, but I do wish I had more to go off on with Plum. Both him and Hb feel like they've got Townclears, and then haven't really done a whole lot since. As opposed to Peaf who got Towncleared and has been in the thick of it.

ctesjbuvf posted...

I would full claim if I wasn't almost completely convinced it would do more harm than good and I understand why people are asking that, but I am getting pretty hired of hearing that I just said "trust me Han is town" because I have outed myself a bit to make that statement since otherwise I believe the day would be derailed heavily and early votes seem to confirm that. Especially since yesterday JC said "I moved" and everyone jumped off.

Ctes, I know you said it was okay for me to do it last night, but if it comes down to it, are you okay with me claiming for you? (I know timezones can be a bear)

Or would you insist on claiming for yourself?

Chaeix posted...

His point was I havent done anything, not that I was wrong.

I mean, he specified the word "scum".

Anyway, I'm still rereading through that topic. I'll be able to focus on Dumey/Kirby stuff as I go (for their benefit). But frankly, I'm not sure if I'm doing more than confirming biases at this point.

Chaeix posted...

I have been on Hans ass since literally D1.

I'm not Scum, though, so Red has a point.

UltimaterializerX posted...

They thought Lea was power. No need to think beyond that.

Technically were right!

Scumgloat?

TheSultanOfSlam posted...

Actually is Ulti being loud and wrong to look town like he said others would be doing? That is amusing

Would be amusing, yes.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

I also find it a little off-putting that Ulti is 100% sure I am Town.

UltimaterializerX posted...

It's based on a behavior comparison from last game and an SBell soul read.

And Ulti is now voting me.

UltimaterializerX posted...

Oh. Before I forget.

Doctor on Cody is flagrantly the correct play, assuming the burn can be healed (doc should PM the host and ask what his mechanics on this are, it's perfectly allowed before making a save decision).

Day 1, Ulti was very clear that Cop should scan Cody.
If there is a Scum role that lays traps that interact with the Mario role, then Ulti trying to direct power to Cody repeatedly really stands out.

I would expect people to do the same when we argue about WIFOM, or when I argue with Lopen.

It just felt more like an argument about semantics and game theory. I will be rereading them at some point, though.

Sorry Dumey, I didn't really read the content of those posts, since they appeared to be irrelevant.

Dumey, I wasn't asking for a bullet by bullet answer there. I was simply stating that all of those are connected if you're going to decide to treat me and Ctes as Scum for the crime of not wanting to give Scum extra information. Maybe they're not mutually inclusive, but all of those are connected and the answer would have to be yes to all for it to make sense for me and Ctes to be Scum.

Otherwise, "fake-claiming a nothing that they're trying so hard to avoid claiming is a gambit" is just... not a serious thing to consider. Why the hell would we insist on not claiming if we had a fake-claim prepared? It literally doesn't make sense.

ctesjbuvf posted...

For what it's worth, if I had been around at the end of yesterday, I think I would most likely have voted Dumey. Lea commented that his play felt much more criticizing of how people played than trying to find scum and I found myself agreeing with that. Dumey today stating that Lea only used woman's intuition as a reason is weird because it's incorrect and yet his Death walls are fixing exactly what was called out on there.

And all the time he spent with Kirby debating about the merit of Ulti's catch-up posts...

Chaeix posted...

holy shit we are going nowhere fast and will probably somehow end today with nobody new claiming and both the Ben and Han/Ctes messes still being big issues

we cannot afford a mislynch with these messes on the table. If we mislynch and Han/ctes claim something next day that stays self-confirmable and town is stuck in the same situation as today, were royally fucked

I've been trying to reread when I can, and plan on doing a full breakdown at some point.

Can you give me your full breakdown and we'll compare notes? Meaning, this is where you think everyone is, and what it would take for them to be Scum or Town?

Peace___Frog posted...

He was? I can't say i recall many people giving all that many thoughts about him.

It was the impression I got. I might have read it from only like two people and I'm fluffing it up, but that's how I remember it.

UltimaterializerX posted...

Thought you were attacking me as a human being instead of just a mafia thing, Han. My bad. Im a sensitive dude, what can I say.

I wasnt ignoring you. I was trying to catch up before, uh playing for real in live time. I still dont quite understand the Justin bit.

Ulti, if someone said "based on Han's recent play, I don't think we should trust his reads without reservation", you would probably say that's fair, right? I would. I'm just saying the same goes for you - hidden 100% Townreads can be said - but people have no reason to just believe you on those. Especially since a number of your strong reads this game have been backwards?

And can you elaborate on the "Justin bit", and what you don't understand from it?

Technically my argument isn't the WIFOM; it's yours. But we can agree to drop it.

EDumey posted...

It would be foolish of me not to.

Did you think we were both Scum yesterday? Did you think we were both Scum day 1? Do you think us being Scum making this OUT OF NOWHERE CLAIM, before a MYLO situation makes sense? Do you think I'm an idiot incapable of basic logic? Do you think I would be unaware that saying that I feel better about Ctes would not be picked up on? Do you think I would not be aware that it shines a huge light on me? Do you erroneously think that Scum don't like to share their fakeclaims? Do you think Kirby is 100% Scum?

If the answer to all of those isn't yes, then your reaction doesn't make logical sense.

Peace___Frog posted...

I misspoke with a mental shortcut - I'm assuming that it doesn't kill stars. I'm no flavor expert obviously, but the wording of "resists" hammers and jumps would align to characters that otherwise give Mario power ups or whatever.

So instead of town/scum possibilities, it's stars/not stars, where stars are a subset of town and not stars are either town or scum. It adds ambiguity to the result to balance the repeatability of the actions.

This is a fair point. Most characters flipped so far can be defeated in battle. Star Spirits never are - they're just like, FF7 summons.

However, I don't think this necessarily clears Ben as Town. Scum could still have a role that is "Find Star Spirits, which are all vanilla". And it makes sense for Scum to have a role that is vanilla detector. Or they have a role that can put traps onto Town, like spiky helmet or hammer shield, to deny Mario.

Like, the reason I still hold against your argument is that I don't think the role interaction makes sense because it's so many parts.

However, I think with Ulti's claim, his actions yesterday regarding Ben don't make a lick of sense.

EDumey posted...

And I can't accept "I would never do that as scum" as an argument.

That's not the argument. That's where the line is drawn here, and why you're calling it WIFOM and I'm not.

My argument isn't "I wouldn't do this as Scum", it's that "Scum wouldn't do this". It's the same argument that I'm using for saying Peaf is Town.

You can literally ALWAYS turn any argument into a WIFOM. For example:

"I used my vigilante kill on Scum!"
"Yeah, but you could have done that with Scum extra kill to make people think you're Town."

Like, I had Ctes on my poe the whole day, and when looking away from Ben, it was him or you. I could have been persuaded to flip to Ctes too if I was more present. What we don't have is proof I would support a Ctes lynch over Sultan, but frankly, I didn't feel strongly enough about Sultan to push it.

I'll give you this - my argument checks out but it's not strong enough on its own to withstand default denial from others. I don't blame you for approaching it how you are. But I also don't think your suggested course of events makes sense:

EDumey posted...

-As scum, you would direct attention to Ctes to separate yourself from your partner to look town.

This doesn't make sense as an action. Ctes was read as Townish on D1, and people have soured on him due to perceived inaction. Also, strategically, it's just smarter to have you argue me back to Ben or to Sultan or Kirby or whomever. It's just smarter that way.

Why would we assume Sultan's role doesn't kill Town?

I'd like to take some time to look back at Hb. I'm pretty sure I remember him looking bad, but if he's Town, Kirby seeing Hb/Sultan as Town/Town and talking it down makes sense as Scum.

It could also make sense with Hb Scum in that scenario, but I have felt a little better about Hb this game.

Well I don't.

And I'll have to ISO Ulti to be sure, but so far this game, my one sentence summary of him was "Gave very clear and deliberate reads, and reversed on most of them"

Go ahead and spell it out. That's close to what I was asking you to do, anyhow.

Ulti telling Kirby not to claim is kind of weird to me.

A reason to not lynch Sultan was he didn't claim.
Kirby claiming might make him a more worthwhile lynch than Sultan.

Hi Red.

I'm WFH today so I can talk to you ALL MORNING

And I promise not to get mad.

How would you like to begin?

EDumey posted...

wow Han, this is literally impossible. Just analyze the situation between Me and Kirby. Why would I as scum ever possibly spend so much of Topic 2 gunning for Kirby is we were both scum. It doesn't make sense!
:))))))))))))))

I'll have to analyze your posts in Topic 2 to consider that, but thank you for pointing me at the topic to do the research! :)

But Dumey, that post that came just after your sign-off last night was sent without me seeing your sign-off first, so if it feels like I was trying to get the last word in there, that's why. It wasn't me reading what you said then posting that anyway.

The post after is me trying to explain why I don't consider it WIFOM. That's the situation at hand here. I'm of the viewpoint that my actions wrt Ctes don't make sense from a Scum perspective. And so when I suggest you look at that, that's not WIFOM to me, it's directing you to the part I think separates me from Ctes.

It HAS set me defensive from actually defending myself from now on because my viewpoint is that I can't defend myself, because arguments I don't consider WIFOM will be called as such.

EDumey posted...

I won't dodge this. I said as much in my first post of the day. I had doubts about Sultan, which led to me doubting my read on Kirby. In retrospect, I wish I had stayed on Kirby, but I directly and intentionally made Kirby catching up to Sultan less likely in that moment. I should absolutely be considered part of Sultan's lynch (even if my unvote didn't actually matter in the end.)

How do you feel about Ulti's number 1 Scumread being Sultan for most all of Day 2, then him suggesting Sultan was off-limits at the end of day, then voting for him over Kirby/you anyway?

I'm trying to analyze end of day 2 lynch rn.

There's a lot of hands-off from Sultan. Would imply that other trains were not necessarily Scum, or Scum thought they weren't in danger. Otherwise, there's a weird situation where 4 Townreads managed to secure a lynch of unclaimed Sultan over Kirby (and sort of Dumey).

plum
hb
peaf
red

Dumey's posts from end of day. Here you go:

EDumey posted...

I think Sultan's unvote on Ulti right as people are talking about Sultan again looks super scared. And now the vote on HB. An hour from lynch and I think Sultan maybe is panicking. This makes me really not want an HB lynch.

EDumey posted...

I just can't figure out why Sultan started panicking. I'm so confused at the last like 10 minutes. Plum/HB voting him and then Red putting Sultan on a potential scum list? Is that what prompted him to unvote Ulti?

EDumey posted...

I'm honestly uncomfortable here. I think Sultan may be town, but the way he floundered there at the end makes me doubt my Kirby lynch. I'm honestly considering the special route.

So Dumey provided wood to the Sultan fire (tbf, so did I), and then gave a reason to not BE on Sultan, but also a reason not to save Sultan by voting for Kirby who he felt stronger about.

It's a weird "push Sultan but say he's Town but dodge saving Sultan by voting the person they were voting".

Ulti's deadline-vote for Sultan implies saving Kirby as well, which is kind of weird because Ulti was VERY insistent that Sultan was not being touched. Not a whole lot of defense from Ulti towards end of day in spite of that insistence to Plum earlier.

I'm going to review the Ben claim next I get the chance, make sure my thoughts on it are measuring out.

Pathetic not calling you pathetic, it's being used as a synonym for weak, clearing that up

UltimaterializerX posted...

And you really did hurt my feelings badly yesterday, I wasnt kidding about that.

For what? Saying that people shouldn't default trust you have "100% Townreads" of someone that you refuse to share in a game where you have not demonstrated Town equity?

UltimaterializerX posted...

Flavor is Misstar and also mentions sealed powers, and Im a bit weary of people that keep shutting down vanillas cant upgrade.

The flavor explains why you don't have powers. A lot of times, hosts will write flavor for vanillas that explains why they're vanilla.

Kirby is basically saying "1+1=2".

Anyway, this is such a pathetic claim for the insistence Ulti had yesterday wrt Ben.

Ulti, do me a favor - explain when you started playing D2 - you saw the flip. You clearly saw SOME posts. Why did you ignore mine?

ctesjbuvf posted...

Scum however obviously already knows this is not made up

And who has their vote on me yet switched gears to "actually I think Ben is mafia flavor scanner"?

I was waiting for Ulti to post again before pulling that one out, but the timing is too good here.

Peace___Frog posted...

And for all the time you told lopen last game that Mafia is about convincing people of things, you and ctes have not done anything to convince anyone else of anything except "trust me fam"

I can't convince people. They'll just say "WIFOM" because I'm the one saying it.

I mean, if I DIDN'T say anything about feeling better about Ctes, you wouldn't be saying anything about that. In fact, you would still be reading me mostly as Town, right? Other people still are.

Anyway, I'm doing you the favor of considering that Ben is Town and came up with a team for it, what do you think?

Here's a question - how often do you have a role in a game whose power becomes useless if the role they "interact" with gets lynched D1?

I suppose there could also be only 3 Scum remaining too.

But let's play things your way:

Ben is confirmed Town.

Scum is exactly this list:

Dumey
Hb
Kirby
Ulti

I'll grant you it's possible.

Like, even if you believe that MZero designed a role to require psychic connection, how does that "confirm" Ben?

Why can't a Scum just be claiming a weak scanning role that is easy to fake if they have a flavor scanner?

If Flavor is so important, then why is Ben's role specifically the proof of concept? You're trying to fit any peg possible into a square hole, and Ben's the only peg, but everything fits into a square hole and that's what you're not accepting, I feel.