Lurker > HeroDelTiempo17

foolm0r0n posted...

That's a common thought but it's so reductive. Those experiences are all equally valid, but they are certainly on a wide spectrum of quality. For example, it's obvious that quitting the game after 10 mins is not a good way to experience the game. Even though a huge portion of players had that exact experience. So much design effort in any game is spent trying to hook the player for just a few more minutes, because designers know how much better their experience can be.

We can agree that not interacting with an object is an incomplete way to experience that object, and yet I STILL cannot make any claim about the quality of that experience because I can't guarantee further engagement would be positive for that person! The same goes for playing vs watching a video. At any rate, I think the trend in game design to constantly push for another 10 minutes of engagement is just bad, so I don't think we're going to agree on this.

foolm0r0n posted...

The way genocide uses the trope of grinding is so different though. Other games are designed to encourage grinding, but Undertale does everything in it's power to discourage it. But you're still compelled to do it due to... something. The reason is different for everyone and the game pulls it out of you (Chara, mirror, etc). Or you quit it, which a difficult and illuminating choice too. You can't get out of that playthrough without changing the way you see games. Watching a 1 hour vid on 2x that you can skip around and pause is nothing like it.

It's really not as different as you're making it sound. It's grinding. People know if they like it or not. The thing that unites Undertale and how most games use grinding is that they're both an obstacle to gate story content (and the thing that divides them is that Undertale does not use grinding as a cynical method to produce more engagement). What Undertale does is place that story gating in a new context and creates an oppressive atmosphere. This is not even the only game I've played that does this: No More Heroes 2 immediately comes to mind. That's fine! I think you can make some damn good art just by taking old concepts and putting them in a new context. After all, as Toby's wise landlord once wrote, "There is essentially nothing new in paradox space. Everything that can happen is either a visual or substantive reproduction of something which has already transpired." Toby Fox is very obviously a master at doing this.

If I'm understanding your argument it's that actually playing the route introduces more decision points to the player, which is true, and I think is an interesting design. I could also say that choosing not to play is its own decision point, and anyways more decision points isn't always better. There is no real "player choice" in the Pacifist and Genocide routes. They're scripted, and require specific interactions to proceed. By contrast, the Neutral route has 91 possible ending variations. And yet only 2 of the 93 routes really seem to stick with people. Undertale is trying to tell us that maybe not all of our choices actually matter. I can know this without playing through all 91 Neutral routes individually to confirm my suspicion. So when you're talking about Genocide route, you have two options: engage with the thing, or don't. All of what you're describing are microdecisions feeding into the big one. Undertale uses a lot of video gamey tricks to shape individual experiences leading to this decision, and I think those are cool and good in terms of the form the story takes, but they're not essential to the main point. Which by my estimation is more of a question/statement about how and why we engage with these stories at all. This is why Flowey calls the players watching a video out, and why he is right to do so, and also why he is wrong when he tries to imply there's a difference between the two.

This is getting long so I'll leave it at that. But I think what I'm getting here is that you're probably a lot more invested in the actual structure of the route than most people are going to be. Which again, is not a better or worse experience. It's just a different one.

I think there's multiple ways to engage with games as art objects and the vast majority of the time it doesn't create "better" or "worse" experiences, just different ones.

And I really don't think Genocide route is an exception to that. For example the biggest thing is the tedium of having to grind out kills which is both 1) not unique to Undertale, many games require tedium to progress and 2) replaced by a different sort of tedium by having to watch a video

Well I'm not sure how to do a good comparison in-game but I tried plugging the numbers into a damage calc and it was extremely close in terms of DPS but the 2nd one has beefier charge attacks which might be better. Also realized if I get a crit% buff from abyss I'm probably wasting it on the first set, so maybe 2nd is the play.

Paratroopa1 posted...

Even the mood of Death's Door doesn't really remind me of Dark Souls that much, it's a little too cute and silly, the comparison feels so flimsy

It's not quite the same, but I think maybe the disconnect is you're underestimating how crucial the darkly bizarre humor is to the Soulsbourne vibe. Which is understandable for people who bounce off Dark Souls for being too gross or dark! But I don't mean to relitigate the souls defender argument, just take it from me that Dark Souls is actually very silly. Again I can't compare to Death's Door but through the Hollow Knight comparison, the tone is more similar than it is different.

Paratroopa1 posted...

No really, why DO people compare this game to Dark Souls, though? And don't say that people don't do that, I've heard it from like three different people! Is it because this game has a dodge roll? Because it has a slightly melancholy vibe and grayscale aesthetics? Dark Souls didn't even invent those things! It's not like Dark Souls at all! There's no RPG elements, your attacks come out instantly and have no windup, and it's not frustrating and annoying to play. It has a crow!

I have not gotten around to Death's Door yet but the answer is "yes" to all of those things. "Soulslike" as a genre is mostly vibes-based. I know you hate Metroidvania as a term and will hate this answer too so, I'm sorry but it's true.

(also there are plenty of crows in Soulsbourne games. They are not as cute but FromSoft loves a good crow)

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/9/7/2/AAMkRCAADcsk.jpg

I think this is the best Itto I'm going to get without a crit weapon but lol that ratio. I'm also using geo traveler comp who gives +10% crit rate so it's even dumber.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/9/7/3/AAMkRCAADcsl.jpg

This is my other option, 200 more DEF but I think the ratio is slightly worse. I got TONS of crit substat rolls they just all went into damage.

https://twitter.com/NancyVu99/status/1547000010310565888?t=AbyJAsldShtv0pLtioG8mA&s=19
https://twitter.com/NancyVu99/status/1547007379820216322?t=4G4aQaV6lCrsUVisCG3rGw&s=19

This is just pathetic, the easiest "Republicans voted against/fillibustered the troops" shit in the world and they won't do it

Inviso posted...

Seeing what's become of the country now, and how we have one political party (largely founded in its modern state in response to the successes of the Civil Rights movement) that is actively working to reverse any positive gains that the Civil Rights/Voting Rights act brought, I just don't know if that strategy was ultimately successful. People in this country are too big of self-centered assholes to prevent the GOP from regaining power on a consistent enough basis to eradicate their mindset entirely.

Before blaming the activist strategy or the common populace I would probably point the finger at the state's secret campaign to kill MLK and other prominent Black and socialist leaders like Fred Hampton during the Civil Rights era because they were terrified their methods were too effective.

I'm pretty sure MLK did have a strategy for dealing with white moderates, and it involved doing things that pissed them off

Yesmar_ posted...

People are so used to "the next big thing" coming and going so fast, that if something lingers around longer, it raises people's attention. Everything Everywhere All At Once used this strategy to great effect. We'll have to see if anyone else can replicate it.

I mean in terms of EEAAO's marketing it seems like it's just following the typical indie film fest premiere into theatrical release circuits, it just has a bit wider appeal that gives it better word of mouth. And actually, a major blockbuster did try this - WB did it with Joker. The main differences for EEAAO compared to other indies are:

1) It has the A24 indie hype machine behind it
2) it's truly an exceptional movie that also appeals to a wide audience

Even then while successful it didn't even crack 100 mil, that's 1/10th of what Strange 2 made, so I'm not sure the definitions of success are on the same level here.

It's kind of a double edged sword. On the one hand being uninterested in so many of the banners can be boring. On the other it lets me save more easily for ones I want. At the very least they've started running 3-4 banners per patch instead of just 2.

Even if they did add more to normal banner, it would be a pretty bad way to get them without any rate ups.

the answer is killmonger except it actually sucks ass he's a one-off villain, and it would be vulture if it wasn't morbin time, so I'm voting agatha

StealThisSheen posted...

EDIT: Bigger movies have always gotten more screens, and trying to avoid releasing movies near them has been a thing as long as I can remember.

Feels like a particularly bad year for it because this didn't really happen and there's a huge glut of both blockbusters and smaller films coming out real close to each other.

lmao I posted the same thing without seeing the link above

what the fuck are they even talking about???

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/3/9/1/AAMkRCAADb0n.jpg

booooooo

Wasn't expecting to fully complete BP this patch but that feels bad

Paratroopa1 posted...

Look all I'm saying is that The Guardian and the BBC are more transphobic than like, I don't know, the New York Times or CNN (even though I hate both of them)

Yes, I was being flippant in the original post but the media environment angle is what I was getting at.

I promise I do not think the US needed any help being violently transphobic. Inexplicably, the UK helped anyways! The way TERF rhetoric circulated specifically in "liberal" British news media sort of acted as an incubator and platform for the ideology, and the mainstreaming of that in US "liberal" media is a much more recent trend. That's mixing with our developing American fascism which we will then export back. I mean, they were already pretty bad but still.

I don't think either country "started" it or whatever, both of them have a long history of hating queer people so it's just the pointing Spiderman meme. I was talking about this very specific set of circumstances.

Sheep007 posted...

And yes, not to depress the Americans, but the crappy system here is delightful in comparison. Having to deal with weird old money families and stiff-upper-lip sociopaths is still a step up from open white nationalists and religious fundamentalists!

Ok but can you get rid of your god damn TERFs? They've spread over here and started allying with our fascists and religious conservatives, and I can pretty much guarantee this is going to be disasterous for both countries.

Yeah, whatever way you slice it, I don't think the electoral strategy of "just turn out the vote" is particularly effective. As mentioned we are smashing turnout numbers but as things are, they are not decisively swinging for Dems. I am increasingly unconvinced there is a hidden potential blue wave of nonvoters to unlock. It isn't that people can't be convinced, it's that the Democrats are too unconvincing to swing voters.

There's other forms of political action besides "vote vs not vote"

I'm on guaranteed 50/50 (lost Yae Miko way back when...) and am also skipping until Sumeru. I could really use Gorou cons but I don't want to blow it with an early C1 Itto so I'm staying strong.

If Xingqiu is on Kazuha banner I might do some risky pulls for his cons and the new character. I would not mind a Kazuha.

azuarc posted...

I'm going to C0 Kazuha. C-1 Kazuha is completely ineffective and gets his ass kicked by Sucrose.

unless this is true lol

andylt posted...

Ah I didn't realise Deltarune is still unfinished. How many chapters are there supposed to be in total? Undertale is definitely a game that needs to be played as a whole to fully appreciate it, so I might hold off on Delta for now...

7 chapters according to the chapter select screen and if nothing changes. Last I heard, Toby plans on releasing 3-5 for purchase as a single drop (1&2 are currently free), then finish the game later. That might be a good time to jump in, if you want to wait. It's taking years between releases and Ch 2 just came out so who knows how long it will be.

Glad to see it lived up to the hype for you! It's a hard thing to manage. I will say that I think the Genocide/No Mercy route is pretty integral to what the game is doing, though you don't necessarily have to do it yourself and you can get the experience from watching an LP or overview video. I'd only recommend playing it if you really enjoy the combat and are up for some rough fights. That said, not engaging with it at all is still a valid choice...I guess I'm just saying it's worth thinking about and coming to your own conclusion!

Deltarune is definitely worth playing with just the two episodes that are out so far, especially if you are hungry for more game in a similar style. That said it's hard to judge if it "lives up" to the same standard when the game is incomplete, but I think it's shaping up to be a worthwhile successor. It is already showing signs of being weirder than Undertale, which doesn't say anything about quality but gives me some high hopes for it.

I mean here's hoping but I'm under the impression the leaked characters cover 3.2 and maybe 3.3 which is a long chunk of time to be waiting.

Leaks/rumors. I saw Cyno and an unnamed "Cleopatra" ish character (according to fans) are rumored to be coming later so hopefully they have good designs and are 5*s because this batch just isn't grabbing me aesthetically

Tag

Getting into the game again in preparation for Sumeru. Currently trying to build up a few more characters to maybe have a bit more fun. Right now the focus is on Itto, and can I just say farming Onikabuto SUCKS. At least it finally forced me to be a good gamer and complete Tatara Tales.

Leaked character spoilers: Dehya is by far the most appealing of the lot to me design-wise, but according to the recent leaks she's a 4*? Why would you do this to us MiHoYo...why would you make best girl and the only remotely brown-skinned character another pyro claymore 4*

The ultimate example is Rave On from Killer7.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJO8uo3UMko

This plays in a hallway you spend like 10 seconds in before boss fights.

maybe if the US and Chinese governments keep posting cringe at each other on Twitter, Biden will get so embarrassed he'll have no choice but to send in the troops and nationalize the energy industry for clout

I mean people were "excited" for and "celebrating" Biden too, I don't think Harris is any different from that. And I also don't even think this is something uniquely bad with her as a VP pick, the ENTIRE Biden admin is asleep at the wheel and no one there seems to give a shit at all.

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

https://twitter.com/who_shot_jgr/status/1542667166260121603?s=21&t=jwK6R5KWGAnBg-f2ZPoq9g

Ok look, even for Mayor Pete this is insane.

Exactly what aspect of American infrastructure can any modern country learn from?

the conspiracy theory that the Biden admin is getting revenge by giving Harris and Pete terrible jobs that destroy their credibility is getting more plausible

Seanchan posted...

Sorry, earlier in the topic I asked what are the odds of Civil War 2 (I said 2-3%) and the response was "you're crazy". Then someone said there'd be a non-violent political revolution that would happen to make things right. I asked what this would entail, and obviously got no response.

Who was talking about a nonviolent revolution? I think at this point, barring some change, it is inevitable we will encounter large-scale political violence within our lifetimes (given that we already see an uptick of it on the right), but "Civil War 2" is a bit hyperbolic. Whether the violence is gonna be revolutionary or just domestic terrorism I don't really know, but I don't see how you get to a war between states when control over the federal military would be the decisive factor.

Elden Ring, Citizen Sleeper, and NORCO in that order are easily the three best games I've played this year. Admittedly I have a lot to catch up on. Still need to play Tunic, interested in Neon White and Kirby as well.

Paratroopa1 posted...

MMBN2 is my favorite game in the series but I suspect it's mostly because it's my first.

Oh yeah I feel the same. Problematic fave lol

MMBN3 makes a ton of gameplay improvements but then kinda hamstrings itself by having a bunch of weird gimmicky bosses, and 6 is a blast to play but in a different way. Plus by then the series has gone through enough changes and polishing to have a different vibe. By 6 the setting has a lot of established lore to deal with while 2 and 3 are a lot more invested in just projecting the weirdness of early 2000s internet into the future (and also Mega Man is there). And for better and worse that is at its peak in 2! But being the first one I played it left the biggest impact on me.

(this is also why Star Force doesn't work nearly as well, the setting is nonsense because it just reconstructs the MMBN world mechanically using weird lore it gets up its own ass about)

andylt posted...

what the hell

there is also a segment slightly before this where you're on a vacation to Europe but also a couple screens over from the medieval castle is a stereotype of an American "ghetto" filled with Black people

it's um. bad and bizarre.

edit: not all of it but can give you an idea.
https://twitter.com/ponettplus/status/948033705586708481?t=2uoPgDD-6IUs7JmZFR2qMw&s=19

According to this rando on Twitter, Netopia is more explicitly "The West" and is a fusion of America and Europe in the JP version, so if I were being generous it could be a bad attempt at social commentary. But also all of the dialogue during this section is the writers/localizers riffing on as many cultural stereotypes as possible, it's wild. I'm actually wondering now if they're gonna clean it up in relocalization.

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

This was always a series I wanted to check out back in the day but didn't. So I'm looking forward to picking this up.

https://twitter.com/JonComms/status/1541784264869560321?t=sl2845P7PsdcRfnSTY6dLg&s=19

This seems silly though. The updated visuals look good to me unless I'm missing something. Also it's optional so why complain.

I'd have to see how it looks like on the full Switch screen and TV but I'm with this guy, the pixel art is an iconic look that looks bland when you smooth it over with a filter. It's optional, so whatever, but I would have much preferred they remaster the sprites to be in HD instead, though that would obviously be a lot more work.

UshiromiyaEva posted...

This is incredibly convenient, because the divide on these games of which ones are good and which ones are dog shit is right down the middle!

Ok what the hell? MMBN6 is on par with 2 and 3. What is all this unchecked 6 slander going on ITT.

6 basically takes the good ideas 4 and 5 experimented with, streamlines them, cuts all the fat and failed experiments, and puts it back into the classic format. Then it also gives you a broken BEAST MODE button to hit which is fine as hell. That game rocks.

It's a lot of these as well as MonolithSoft (who helped with BotW1) being busy with Xenoblade games. Game dev is hard.

GuessMyUserName posted...

to help balance so we don't get so Clinton Nostalgic since it wouldn't be helpful anyways, have a reminder that she does suck ass and still does as of a week ago

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/jun/20/hillary-clinton-indicates-transgender-rights-shoul/

(this isn't her first comments on the topic, and they're never good)

Yeah assuming this is the same article I saw, I almost posted this last week but figured we didn't need more reason to bring up Hillary. I think what is especially disgusting to me about it is that it's not just Hillary but the way the author frames the issue in such a way to deliberately throw trans people under the bus to win elections, it is becoming a distressingly more frequent take amongst political pundits.

Thankfully I don't think it has totally infected the party but it's something to be real vigilant for because many Democrats are cowards. I went to a rally for local Democrats yesterday and to my surprise it was not simply a "just vote" thing but they had partnered with other local orgs that could stress that's only one step and be a bit more explicit in their language. Lots of explicit support for trans lives and how that and other issues connect to abortion rights. The turnout wasn't massive but it's the kind of organizing Democrats should have been doing all along, and better late than never I guess.

So if I sound bitter over electoral quibbles it's because the most important thing people can do imo is to help build up these local orgs and unions that are doing the work to help people right now, and hopefully leverage that into electoral strength later. It's the only real way I see forward.

Anyways let's leave that post at the bottom of last page where it belongs

before you guys start relitigating 2016 for the millionth time it is important to remember that Hillary won the popular vote by three million votes and the reason this stuff with the courts is happening is due to deep systemic issues with our entire government building up over decades and not one bad election

KamikazePotato posted...

A big red state seceding means the left starts auto-winning elections, which would be an objective good for society. The downside is that it would screw over the left-leaning people in those areas, so it can't ACTUALLY happen, but it's nice to fantasize.

You can call it team sports if you want, but I fundamentally can't emphasize towards right-leaning people anymore and would love a theoretical country where they just leave. They're not people I want to associate with.

Yes, this is team sports. You are describing an absolute fantasy world, as if everyone in a red state is an irredeemable monster, or that you don't have fascists in whatever blue state you live in. People have brought this up in the topic multiple times. You want to also evacuate 14 million Texan refugees? Yeah sounds reasonable, and wouldn't even solve the problem. Do I have to explain the Great Migration and how it did not magically end oppression? The reason people don't leave red states isn't because they are "insane" or "stupid" it's because they either don't have the means or ability, or they have ties to local communities and their quality of life would get worse if they left, since things are bad everywhere. Thinking about this in terms of electoral politics misses how real people are affected by it.

Secession is a meme and one you fundamentally miss the point of. Texas has a trifecta government, if they wanted to leave they could try. Mostly it is a slogan to rile up the base, or a bluff against the federal government. You saw it more during Obama's presidency, and then surprise surprise it mostly went away during Trump for other slogans. Now Biden's back so of course. It is a mostly empty signifier of rebellion against the liberal order, and the thing about that is, you can obviate the need to secede by taking over the country. That is the actual goal.

So yeah I know people are just venting or whatever but this is a completely unhelpful mindset even as a joke, and you should get it out of your head. It is just some stupid "us versus them" mentality when what needs to be happening is resources going into red states to help the people and organizations who are there.

Real sick over the "lol let the red states secede" shit

The whole fucking country is rotten. Literally no one benefits from this kind of stupid team sports mindset.

Is Kiki exceptionally good for a 4* or something that make her extra desirable or is it just new character hype?

I'd rather have a robust battle system with one character than a half-baked one with multiple characters. FF7R split the difference pretty well but that's an outlier in terms of Squeenix action-RPGs tbh

Is the event bow good for anyone? Usually these things are designed for the banner character as like a f2p signature so if it's not even good for that then what's the point?

^Yeah, it's a positive association with multiple pronouns. Nonbinary or agender identities themselves can also be a spectrum, or otherwise fluid

I would not make this universal across the board but to put my perspective more simply: he/they identifiers is basically "sometimes I identify as male. other times I do not strongly identify with any gender. either way I am comfortable with both pronouns"

how is there no multiple choice option? (s)he/theys rise up

Tag. Always interested in overlooked indies

They're REALLY hinting that Aerith lives this time which is actually making me doubt they'll go through with it

UshiromiyaEva posted...

Holy shit the Persona fanbase on social media is so horrendous.

The woman who announced she's doing localization cleanup on P3 already has dozens of people yelling at her to remove all the Ken romance stuff for FEMC, some of them even telling her to just quit if she won't do it.

Also dozen more telling her to do a full rewrite of all of Naoto's character arc in P4.

BITCH SHE DIDN'T EVEN SAY SHE WAS DOING P4?

Hell all she's doing is probably just fixing typos and the like.

These people gotta shut up.

this person?
https://twitter.com/katrinaltrnsl8r/status/1536054424790962177

because there are just as many people yelling that they better not change anything

honestly these fandom discourses have been going on for a decade and the only weird thing at all is that they're getting mad at someone who probably does not actually have the final say on this thing. but that's like every gaming fanbase

Mega Mana posted...

I like seeing Hawkman, The Atom, and Dr. Fate.

yeah I hope these characters don't exist just to get killed off but I won't hold my breath

I'm glad we're still doing dramatic Kanye remixes for trailers