Lurker > Jakyl25

Vlado posted...

Ever heard the phrase "Wiinners write history"? If Trump somehow prevails over the deep state, history books in 100 years will be singing very different tunes than today's globalist media.

So your argument is that the reason Hitler gets negative coverage is only because his supporters aren't in power because he lost?

Also would be interested to hear how Trump could "win" against globalists. What are the terms of victory?
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I don't have any alts
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http://www.gallup.com/poll/210704/record-few-americans-believe-bible-literal-word-god.aspx

This is kind of interesting

My favorite part though is the 2% of people who say both "Religion is not important to my life" and "The Bible is the literal word of God."

Uhhhhh
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http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/05/18/stocks-surged-as-trading-floors-watched-breaking-infowars-video-it-was-two-weeks-old-and-wrong?via=twitter_page

In addition to how sad this is, I want to make special mention of the amazing headline "Bull Market."
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BowserCuffs posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

https://twitter.com/theamitie/status/865373905325670401

From the realm of horrible political cartoons

https://twitter.com/PragmaticMonk75/status/865389152220479488

Was...

Was this gif real?

Because I could believe that it was part of some comedy skit, but I could also believe it really happened.

It can't be both?

https://twitter.com/thedailyshow/status/778572065146187776
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https://twitter.com/theamitie/status/865373905325670401

From the realm of horrible political cartoons
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BowserCuffs posted...

I've seen people complain about how the left labels everyone nazis just because they disagree with them (fair enough) but then in the same breath talks about how the Jews are evil and controlling everything (scapegoating Jews? Sounds familiar.).

And then they go and use all sorts of actual Nazi imagery and phrases, ironically according to some, with the idea being "You call me a Nazi then fine I'll act even more like a Nazi to offend you!"

Which, in fact, makes you indistinguishable from a "real" Nazi
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Forever ago, Harrich asked about cultures with more genders

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/content/two-spirits_map-html/

Hurry before Trump defunds it
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TheRock1525 posted...

TheRock ~ I had a name, my father called me Blues.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mayer_Trio

The John Mayer Trio is an American blues rock band that formed in 2005.

Follow the money
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Kenri posted...

In part, because society has determined that it REALLY REALLY matters even though it's pretty inconsequential if people just aren't dickbags.

A much more succinct way to put it, but absolutely
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I hope I didn't offend you with my confusing comment, Para
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Paratroopa1 posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

It's just a bunch of labels really. You don't HAVE to do anything and neither does she. That's all personal between you two.

Is it though? Is being trans "just a label?" That seems a little bit at odds with our whole discussion of gender.

I see the confusion. My bad.

It's not so much that being trans is "just a label." The issue is that so many people REFUSE to allow gender to be a label.

Like the discussion the other day about Chelsea Manning. What she did has nothing to do with gender or her being trans, but regardless, in the comments of ANY post about her, dozens and dozens of people go OUT OF THEIR WAY TO BE OUTRAGED that the story uses the correct pronouns.

To anti-trans bigots, gender is more than just a label, and they won't stop reminding us that they feel that way. So in that essence it has to be treated that way by trans people fighting back. It's an important label BECAUSE it's being unfairly denied them.

In my post I was referring to just Para and the hypothetical transwoman. I'm assuming neither of you are bigots in this scenario, so the labels don't matter anywhere near as much as your personal connection or lack thereof. Not referring to the perception of anyone else outside the relationship

I hope that makes sense.
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Eddv posted...

Not_an_Owl posted...

Paratroopa1 posted...

So I've always thought about a really tricky hypothetical - what if I was dating a man, but then it turned out they wished to be identified as a woman? Would I have to break up with them? Because like, I'm gay, so wouldn't that mean by still being with them I would be like, disrespecting their gender? Wouldn't I be saying "hey, that's okay, you're still enough of a man for me to be in a relationship with" which, like, seems kind of bad? And if the answer is "well if you love that person then it shouldn't matter" then wait, hang on, why isn't my sexuality being respected here, why does the other person's gender take precedent? I dunno, this is like a REALLY thorny issue for me imo

turns out gender and human sexuality are really, really complicated!

who would have thought

Yeah but like both loud voices in this debate (represented by Jakyl and Ulti) act like its so very simple. Even once you dig into the nuance most people still do loke Seph g and just go with their gut.

I was very much dumbing things down to try and get the CONCEPT across.
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Paratroopa1 posted...

So I've always thought about a really tricky hypothetical - what if I was dating a man, but then it turned out they wished to be identified as a woman? Would I have to break up with them? Because like, I'm gay, so wouldn't that mean by still being with them I would be like, disrespecting their gender? Wouldn't I be saying "hey, that's okay, you're still enough of a man for me to be in a relationship with" which, like, seems kind of bad? And if the answer is "well if you love that person then it shouldn't matter" then wait, hang on, why isn't my sexuality being respected here, why does the other person's gender take precedent? I dunno, this is like a REALLY thorny issue for me imo

It's just a bunch of labels really. You don't HAVE to do anything and neither does she. That's all personal between you two.
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Nebulous brain science can mean you identify as a man or a woman IN A SPECIFIC CULTURE. I get the instinctual "whoa don't give bigots ammo" thing but it's important to keep in mind that genders themselves are merely human constructs, so they already have no ground to stand on.
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My bad

But anyway the point is that no one got hit there
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Eddv posted...

(I have always thought the gender=/=sex argument takes the fairly reasonable argument that gender roles are arbitrary and extends it to mean that if youre a male who uses a lot of female gender roles you therefore ARE a woman and should be able to identify as such which is a bridge or three too far for me)

I know you're probably not looking for more discussion of the same topic, but if you have a penis and fit into women's gender roles, that doesn't necessarily mean you're transgender.

Like sexuality, it's not what (or who) you DO, it's how your brain works
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To think this all started because SephG, of all people, expressed a desire for it to be socially acceptable to laugh at, of all things, a Jon Stewart joke,
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ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

There was a big incident on Survivor this season where a transgender man was forcefully outed as such by another contestant in a desperate effort to get people to turn against him.

This is Zeke Smith
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/05/05/01/3FF4472600000578-4475522-image-m-7_1493943320518.jpg

Ulti believes he should be using women's restroom.

Seph believes he is a woman.

Why so stubborn?

Zeke Smith was my pick to win the season and that was before I knew he was transgender.

The hardcore Survivor fan base sadly dug it up on accident and outed him amongst ourselves just by doing research on his life before he played the first time.

It was kept quiet reasonably well though. I don't think most casual fans knew before he was forcefully outed this season
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Reg posted...

Nelson_Mandela posted...

Paratroopa1 posted...

Honestly, I think if society just left trans people the f*** alone, it wouldn't be taking on such a 'subculture-y' feel to it that I think turns people off

To be fair, trans people are incredibly litigious and often look for reasons to be insulted so they can sue businesses. That sure is not helping things.

Assholes are going to be assholes regardless. Do you actually think that this is only a trans person issue?

I would be willing to bet that cisgender straight white people file the majority of lawsuits in this country.

If proven wrong, so be it.
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UltimaterializerX posted...

Paratroopa1 posted...

I don't think you hate trans people at all. But I don't think what they need is mental help - they need emotional backup, they need people to stand in their court and fight for them and help them be the best person they can be and love them and support them no matter who they are, and way too many people are not willing to give them that

Honestly, I think if society just left trans people the fuck alone, it wouldn't be taking on such a 'subculture-y' feel to it that I think turns people off - but it's society's fault for pushing them away in the first place instead of not putting so much pressure on people to feel like they have to meet some kind of standard as a man or a woman

A human being makes about 1 billion choices in their lifetime (35,000 daily).

If you're being "held down", it's a statistical guarantee that it's due to a choice you made yourself. You are describing a victim complex, not oppression.

Is it your assertion then that oppression essentially does not exist and has never existed?
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Eddv posted...

I use the womens room often enough because I dont feel like waiting in line for the mens room on the odd occasion when that happens.

THINK
OF
THE
CHILDREN
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

I guess time will tell. It's just a shame that the APA has become so politicized that we'll never see what adequate psychiatric treatment will do for these people vs what "societal acceptance" of their potential delusions will bring.

So far nothing but good things?

Like, is there even an example of something bad happening because someone was accepted as trans?

Because I can sure point to voluminous examples of what Seth thinks is proper psychiatric treatment sending people to the grave

How do you think we used to "treat" transgender people before we listened to them?
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Also not sure why we should be offended that Ulti called us dumber than a movie.

What does that even mean?
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

I think their plight is being exploited by the Left for political gain when many are in actual need of mental help.

More than ever before, they are getting the help they need to fit into a society that rejects them
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

There was a big incident on Survivor this season where a transgender man was forcefully outed as such by another contestant in a desperate effort to get people to turn against him.

This is Zeke Smith
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/05/05/01/3FF4472600000578-4475522-image-m-7_1493943320518.jpg

Ulti believes he should be using women's restroom.

Seph believes he is a woman.

Why so stubborn?

Did Zeke Smith inject herself with hormones and have surgery to look that way?

I don't know, that's private.

EDIT: Also it's "himself."
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Paratroopa1 posted...

wait a minute

God gets to declare his own gender + We're all made in God's image = ???

And boom goes the dynamite
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There was a big incident on Survivor this season where a transgender man was forcefully outed as such by another contestant in a desperate effort to get people to turn against him.

This is Zeke Smith
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/05/05/01/3FF4472600000578-4475522-image-m-7_1493943320518.jpg

Ulti believes he should be using women's restroom.

Seph believes he is a woman.

Why so stubborn?
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But why do you believe that a boy must have a penis?
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UltimaterializerX posted...

Because the bible refers to him that way. If God wanted to be known as an amorphous electron bird creature, I'm sure it would have been written that way instead!

So you understand the concept of referring to an entity by a preferred pronoun, you just refuse to extend the courtesy to human beings.

Swell.
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Nelson_Mandela posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Let me maybe try a different tactic

Gender is INVENTED.

Can you imagine a world where your gender is just what roles and appearance you want to have in society and has nothing to do with your genitals?

But why are we accepting your axiom that gender is invented? Just because less than 1% of people do not subscribe to those gender norms?

We established earlier that gender norms aren't grounded in anything biological, I thought.

Gender norms in the sense of dress, interests, etc. sure. A woman can be a woman if she dresses like a cowboy.

I'm just not convinced that a woman can be a woman if she has a penis.

Then you believe sex and gender are intrinsically tied together, despite all the evidence to the contrary presented here, and the foundation of this discussion has fallen apart.
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UltimaterializerX posted...

By God, therefore there are only two genders because he designed it that way.

You call God a "he." Why? Is it because He identifies that way, or is it because you think God literally has a penis and two X chromosomes?
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

So then there is nothing inherently wrong with refusing to accept transgendered people as "socially acceptable"? If it's all on the whim of society...

I can't even begin to follow your logic here.
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Let me maybe try a different tactic

Gender is INVENTED.

Can you imagine a world where your gender is just what roles and appearance you want to have in society and has nothing to do with your genitals?

But why are we accepting your axiom that gender is invented? Just because less than 1% of people do not subscribe to those gender norms?

We established earlier that gender norms aren't grounded in anything biological, I thought.
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You're gonna have to get someone more versed in STARDOM than I am but IIRC the one in the corner is Chelsea Green/Laurel Van Ness and one of the Japanese women is Asuka
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Let me maybe try a different tactic

Gender is INVENTED.

Can you imagine a world where your gender is just what roles and appearance you want to have in society and has nothing to do with your genitals?
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

Physical attraction is subjective and on a spectrum. I've yet to hear a reasoned argument that gender is anything but binary (I'm referring to people who don't have genetic disorders)

I could point you to some cultures that have 3 genders but still only two different sets of genitals
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TheRock1525 posted...

I'm watching some of those gifs and they look like they she hits elbow first.

What do you see here?
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

PerfectChaosZ posted...

Things are often considered mental illnesses before they're normalized... see: homosexuality.

Well homosexuality at least is an action... Not some belief that others can disprove

Uhhh, not really.

It's not too far from the same concept as being trans! What makes you gay or straight or bi is not who you sleep with, it's who you're attracted to.
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And see, even there I slipped up. It's not called Gender Reassignment Surgery anymore now that we understand things better. It's Sex Reassignment Surgery.

Trans women don't become women when they obtain a vagina and estrogen injections. They always were women, as society portrays them, but were born with a body that was presumed to be male based on genitals and other biological markers

And then obviously same thing for trans men just change the appropriate words
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Nelson_Mandela posted...

No. In fact, I believe it's MORE demonstrably true when you think you're a girl but you have a penis than a thin person thinking they're obese.

See, here, after you've already admitted you understood that sex and gender are different concepts, you're still instinctively using genetalia to determine gender.

If sex and gender are different, then why do people insist on getting surgery? It shouldn't make a difference right?

In an ideal society without gender it wouldn't. I mean it could be a thing people get to have sex in a way they feel more appropriate but it wouldn't be crucial to mental health.

It is precisely BECAUSE we have tied gender to sex for so long that gender reassignment surgery helps some transgender people so much. And not all transgender people take that step! That doesn't mean they aren't transgender.
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

No. In fact, I believe it's MORE demonstrably true when you think you're a girl but you have a penis than a thin person thinking they're obese.

See, here, after you've already admitted you understood that sex and gender are different concepts, you're still instinctively using genetalia to determine gender.
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LapisLazuli posted...

You guys are giving him way more credit than he deserves.

He very clearly isn't taking you seriously at all and is just trying to be a little shit about it.

I think attempting to inform is noble, but Seph obviously does not want to be informed.

Even if this is true, someone else may read it and realize something they hadn't considered before.

What made me understand the issue best was when someone took out any qualifiers. They don't believe they are the wrong gender, they ARE the wrong gender.

I am a cisgender man, and I express myself as such based on some of society's guidelines. If, instead, everyone INSISTED I was a woman, from birth to present, how would my life be different?

That got through to me.
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

Why isn't obesity treated like gender? It's how a person FEELS right?

Obesity is a medical classification created to diagnose severely overweight people. It has specific guidelines. It isn't "how you feel."
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

What if someone says they have an invisible friend? Are we supposed to say hi to their friend so they don't feel like an outcast? Of course not--you're supposed to give that person professional help.

It's actually not healthy to just forcefully deny that the friend exists, but this is another issue entirely. Just wanted to throw that in there.

If you see someone with schizophrenia or something similar, please don't callously disregard what they are seeing or hearing. Random people telling them they're "crazy" does not help, it makes things worse.
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Okay so now comes the crucial distinction. If you accept that gender and sex are not the same thing, then I think you can agree that they might not be "in alignment" for some people in their society. Otherwise there would be no need to distinguish them as terms.

People with body dysmorphia see and feel things about their body that demonstrably are not true. If you are severely anorexic but believe you're obese, that's demonstrably wrong. Your brain has an illness that deluded you.

Transgender people AREN'T deluded. They have the brain of the opposite gender that they were assigned. A trans man doesn't believe he has a penis (before any surgery).

Are you starting to see a little bit of the difference?
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

So let's start. There is a difference between sex and gender.

Sex is your anatomy, your chromosomes, what goes on your birth certificate.

Gender is a social construct. There is no inherent biological reason for things like "girls wear dresses" or "men prefer blue over pink." Just keeping it real basic here. Those things are societal memes (in the true sense of the word, not the Internet one) that not only differ from region to region, but also change within the same culture over periods of time.

Am I making any sense so far?

Yes of course. I don't think a boy who wears a dress is mentally ill. That's cool.

I think a boy who wants to be called a girl and has his penis removed is though.

The former would be referred to as a cross-dresser. Drag queen, or what have you. They still identity as the gender that was assigned to them at birth based on their sex, they just prefer projecting the appearance of the other gender.
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Kenri posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Kenri, you're gonna have to go back a few levels.

Understanding what it means to be transgender requires a basic understanding and acceptance of the difference between sex and gender. If you don't establish that you'll never get anywhere.

there's really not any though, all sex is just gender anyway

Okay, this you're going to have to educate ME on then.
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So let's start. There is a difference between sex and gender.

Sex is your anatomy, your chromosomes, what goes on your birth certificate.

Gender is a social construct. There is no inherent biological reason for things like "girls wear dresses" or "men prefer blue over pink." Just keeping it real basic here. Those things are societal memes (in the true sense of the word, not the Internet one) that not only differ from region to region, but also change within the same culture over periods of time.

Am I making any sense so far?
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

I still haven't heard a strong argument that transgenderism isn't the exact same thing as body dysmorphia

Which is why I want to help and not let this turn into a mess.
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