Current Events > a video calling out the double standard about "girlboss" characters

(+) Yeah! (+)

AsucaHayashi posted...

tony has seen major ups and downs throughout his arc not to mention he started his arc with a hole in his chest.

as i said riri was introduced to the mcu with everything already mentioned

you are living up to your tag that says your a fan of critical drinker

AceMos posted...

you are living up to your tag that says your a fan of critical drinker

That explains so so much. The Critical asshole is a fucking failure of a critic and has associations with racists, neo-nazis and quite a few other blights on the internet

The idiot reviewer has zero media literacy and just bitches about woke

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Also as an aside for ranting sake, people claim that increased diversity is fine if we're not changing a pre-existing character or property. Also respect the original creators.

So taking cartoons for instance, Kipo and the Age of Wonderbeasts*, Amphibia, The Owl House and The Ghost & Molly McGee?

Right wingers either:
- Ignore them cause it means admitting that good stuff also prioritizing in diversity exists and you look like an (even bigger) idiot for ranting that intensely when good or bad, these properties are made from the ground up.

- Treat it as you would a "crappy" Woke reboot/sequel and showing that your rants aren't about looking for art. Oh and respect the person who creates or owns the property? Sure as long as they keep certain people in the background.

Heck love or loathe her, Riri at least isn't a race bent black character if race bending is truly bad.

Yet even if some people don't agree with such, it's sure funny how April in several versions of TMNT is made into a teen even though the character was suppose to be another adult figure in their lives.

*Kipo at most had a short 2015 webcomic by the person heading the animated version.

Raiden2909 posted...

tony literally invented time travel in all of 5 minutes

This is completely irrelevant to the discussion, but it always annoys me when people say this because Antman did the hard part already. All Tony did was figure out how to time it.

@AsucaHayashi

yes, riri with her money/access to high-tech equipment and ability to make a metal detector for vribanium that nobody else could as well as a functional iron suit(it flies well which is more than tonys first suit did) is more of a boss character than parker was when starting out

Okay, then explain at least why Batgod is somehow better than girlboss. Especially since some put Batman above other heroes cause he is normal and relatable.

Outside that, if it's cause her accomplishment is too much then Peter making something that no one else could when he isn't most financially stable and 16 in High School still warrents critique.

AceMos posted...

you are living up to your tag that says your a fan of critical drinker

you're a very sad person indeed. i posted one video i found interesting without knowing his background and suddenly i'm tagged as fan.

i'm all for strong female characters but treating vapidly written girlboss characters as anything but isn't helping the actual great female characters of which there are starting to be many of. off the top of my head:
prey(and i'm sure prey 2), companion, megan and sequel, abigail, drop, sinners, nimona, kpop demon hunters, the wild robot etc. etc. etc.

somehow thrillers and horror seem to be a recurring theme as well as animation and i'm all for it.

AsucaHayashi posted...

i'm all for strong female characters but treating vapidly written girlboss characters as anything but isn't helping the actual great female characters of which there are starting to be many of.

So there has never been characters you deemed great that others demonstrated to be vapid?

Antiyonder posted...

So there has never been characters you deemed great that others demonstrated to be vapid?

no idea but i'm sure there are since we all have different opinions. mine is that great female characters exist aplenty but girlboss characters with no hook that makes their character interesting ain't it.

A problem with them is a lot of them are written by men who clearly dont understand women

@AsucaHayashi

no idea but i'm sure there are since we all have different opinions. mine is that great female characters exist aplenty but girlboss characters with no hook that makes their character interesting ain't it.

It's just that anti-woke people try to play their views off as an unbiased theater critic type, but you bring up something pandering in a different fashion like Bayformers, they will then say "Well he knows what to give the audience".

But that's not how an argument should be conducted. Special effects don't equal quality. Sex appeal doesn't equal quality. Besides any story telling flaw, Bayformers is basically a porno parody given the official license, but not being able to do anything beyond a PG-13.

Yet anytime an anti-woke person gives an assessment on it, it's somehow better and the pandering is more appropriate cause....

And again, if a person can accept Batman pulling off superhuman feats when his appeal is being more like us, then the only reason to object to a girlboss? Sexism sounds right.

Heck, anti-woke people in general just try their best to claim that all Pre-2016 entertainment was great or at least tolerable.

AsucaHayashi posted...

tony has seen major ups and downs throughout his arc not to mention he started his arc with a hole in his chest.

as i said riri was introduced to the mcu with everything already mentioned

Gee, I wonder why Riri was introduced with that stuff when she came in as a character, y'know, after all of that stuff already existed.

Tony creates miracles out of nothing in like five minutes, and he's fine. Somebody like Riri works with already existing tech, and it's a problem?

Why is it okay for somebody like Tony to make new shit out of scraps, but it's not okay for Riri to find creative ways to use existing technology?

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There are 100% people who say that Skyler is morally worse.

They are a minority, but I assure you they exist.

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It is more like a Litmus test to measure media literacy.

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everyone makes fun of leon for being a dumb himbo who's only defining trait is the asian girl in the red dress likes to save his life and give him rocket launchers.

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What?

A major issue with this conversation is it more times than not tries to paint a broad brush on most or everyone because they can point at the worse person/people in the room.

Ultimately these type of topics arent looking for a real conversation, its looking for validation of what one already believes. The conversation tends to never get any deeper than pointing at the worse in the room.

Gary Stus and whatever you call a "maleboss" are not all adored either, and definitely have a plethora of haters as well. Mary/Gary Stus tend to have both haters and fans.

The fact that we have the term "girlboss" but there's no widely-used male equivalent term kinda speaks to the double standard in and of itself

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I'm referring to the fact that while male characters get to be strong, confident and independent as a given, female characters have a specific label applied to them when they are any of those things.

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

The fact that we have the term "girlboss" but there's no widely-used male equivalent term kinda speaks to the double standard in and of itself

Not really, as someone coining a buzzword, doesnt mean the buzzword is actually legit to whatever one wants to claim a narrative to for all..... with the common excuse of pointing at the worse in the room as justification for the majority.

Like the percieved narrative of "if you dont like x character, you must hate women" or whatever extreme one wishes to paint because they can point at the worse people in the room who does hate women. Or the percieved narrative male characters have no haters, and are just beloved by all.

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

The fact that we have the term "girlboss" but there's no widely-used male equivalent term kinda speaks to the double standard in and of itself

that is a good point

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For starters the word "girlboss" originated from women. So people are only coining something some women decided to coin in the first place. But its beyond the point.

What I said wasnt unreasonable either. We cant keep pointing to the minority in these discussions and treating them as the majority. Just because someone happens to dislike a character you happen to like or think has little to no flaws.

Because these type of discussions tend to not go much of anywhere, and assumes those who dislike or critique a woman character must dislike the character because shes a woman. Then points to actual people who hate woman as their supporting argument.

So the discussion or question if you will, tends to not really be seeking an actual discussion beyond those who already think you simply dont like a character because they're a woman, while falsely assuming that same criticism isnt pushed onto a plethora of male characters.

Im not saying there arent individuals out there who only specifically attack women. But the discussion here isnt really targeting only them. Its acting as if a majority attack female characters over male characters for the same flaws. While setting up a narrative that the sheer idea of having criticism of a female character, has a great probability of being rooted in hating women. Because we arent being honest that's definitely a goto argument some have if you dare critique a character that happens to be a woman, too.

The problem with "girlboss" characters is that the people that write them use them to attack femininity. They treat feminine traits as weaknesses rather than strengths.

This video explains the overall issue a lot of women have with such characters. Her focus is mostly on books but she applies the same beliefs in all modern fiction:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jumw30_j9cs

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No one has directly said this, but it doesnt change that's where this discussion often jumps to while using a loud minority as the supporting argument.

While ignoring the plethora of male characters that arent all beloved and adored just because they are man. We just dont have loud minority crying about bad male characters as much.

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Like this false narrative. This false narrative that all or most flawed male characters are those things. Or that they get a pass.

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If that is truly the case, then actually make a discussion that specifically points out the loud minority. Not a broad topic that acts as if a majority who has a negative opinion about a character that happens to be a woman.... has said criticism because its a woman.

Because this pattern you speak of pertains to a minority, not a majority. And we arent being totally honest that some definitely jump to the mindset "if you dare critique a character that happens to be a woman.... you must specifically attack the female characters over the male characters more." We arent being honest these discussions does often push a broad idea that "one must dig deeper into why you specifically are being critical of specifically women characters."

I want to state again that Im not saying there isnt a loud minority of women haters who can help attack women any chance they get. But the question you speak of isnt actually pinpointing a conversation specifically about them.

I watched through the video and while he does discuss that male characters can get treated differently than female characters despite having similar characteristics, it's not the only point he makes. He also talks about how race can play a factor even if characters that are being compared are of the same gender.

Overall, it's difficult to find out exactly why people feel a certain way about one character over another without having to learn their exact positions. But I do agree that people are often dishonest in their critique to avoid saying something they know isn't okay.

Im just popping into say, Ironheart is perfectly fine as a character. It's not a crime to introduce a character already competent. Media does it literally all the time and those who find these egregious are applying a double standard

Riri is the worst character in her own show. She might be different, but that doesn't make her a likable character. Her and Tony's only comparative feature is their use of Iron suits. Tony is a broken character who comes from a broken family. He is constantly destroying his relationships to his own detriment. Riri is a damaged character who comes from a good family. Her obsessions leads to her taking actions that ruin everyone else's life.

Tony realizes he's the asshole and hates himself for it. Riri doesn't realize she the problem and thinks she deserves better.

I don't see how it's even slightly controversial that people are harder on female characters than male. Like it's just a straight incontrovertible fact. People are utterly assholes over it.

Link_of_time posted...

Riri is the worst character in her own show. She might be different, but that doesn't make her a likable character. Her and Tony's only comparative feature is their use of Iron suits. Tony is a broken character who comes from a broken family. He is constantly destroying his relationships to his own detriment. Riri is a damaged character who comes from a good family

Uhhhh her father and best friend were killed in a shooting. Thsts still a broken family it was just broken apart externally

Iron Man had such a terrible life being mildly insulted by his dad before he left on business trips

Poor Tony wiping away his tears with 5000 dollar bills.

Yea riri is a flawed character. She starts off robbing rich people and only looking out for herself. Tony stark spends a decade blowing up middle eastern people.

Yea that's a whole order if magnitude worse lmao

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And I'm saying these discussions need to actually be crystal clear on focusing strictly on them. Because often they dont, on top of painting a narrative the opposite doesnt happen.

Its my entire issue with gender war like topics. I'd hardly label them as deep dive discussions if its typically with someone who for the most part is going to validate your position, for the most part validate you on what you think the issues are. IMO these type of discussions tend to, even if unintentionally, fan the flame.

We talk of double standards, but we arent being honest that theres also a double standard of this assumed sexism if anyone dares to be critical of a character that happens to be a woman. "It must be sexism" seeps into these conversations quite often.

In specific to someone not liking a woman character, way too often the discussion skews towards automatically thinking sexism is at work if you dont like her.

An actual person hating on women, is not a good reason to push another also has that reason, and some arent being honest that some definitely push that anyway in these discussions.

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You and I will never agree on this and was a prime example to my issue with gender war topics. These type of topics end up only being validation discussions among people who already agree, along with hodgepodge of points dismissed, downplaying of concerns, this need to punish all for the bad ones, this need that all should repent for the bad ones, this push to treat all as either a victim or privilege, and ultimately just validation among people who typically already agree. Even the privilege discussion, that discussion can be very touchy since way too often it paints this broad brush of privilege that assumes everyone equally gets, and this broad brush of victims.

And while I think a discussion would be nice, I haven't seen too many actual good conversations that doesnt fall into the above trap. Speaking in general, this isnt at specifically you are acting like Im perfect either.

IMO gender war variant discussions rarely are productive and IMO indirectly contributes to the problem since people still feel unheard at the end. To be clear, speaking generally, not saying this is a you thing.

But I digress, as I I want to stress I dont want this to be percieved as a personal attack at you as we tend to agree on most other things even if not on this. Even on this I think we overall agree and want the same endgame...., just dont agree on the solution to get there.

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I hope you arent implying I was one of the ones not supporting that. I saw no issue with the Uber thing allowing a women only option.

@asdf8562

In specific to someone not liking a woman character, way too often the discussion skews towards "well one must dig deeper into why you specifically are being critical of specifically women characters." With constant shots sexism is at work if you dont like her.

Hence why I bring up that the criticism is suppose to be on the basis that quality comes first.

And whenever I bring up the entirety of say Michael Bay's Transformers films to show you can have Non-Woke crap on the level of Ghostbusters 2016, the crowd claiming that quality comes first will answer "Well, Bay knows what the audience wants".

But stuff like the sex appeal and crude humor is also pandering, which is the problem with Woke fair. So what is it? Quality comes first or pandering first is okay?

You have to admit that such comes off being dishonest which means the person claiming that sexism isn't their problem is inviting the accusation.

Heck kind of like how some would say that they will watch a show with a girl or more in the lead like Kim Possible or Powerpuff Girls. But with accept the original Transformers cartoon which isn't that good. Fun, but not quality.

In short(er) though, it doesn't necessarily mean sexism, but it feels disingenuous one gives gender "appropriate" misfires continual defenses while something for or starring women need to be good or acceptional to be viewed. Or claiming that (diversity) pandering bad, while sexy elements pandering to Bayformers audience.

When it comes to arrogance, I have more of a problem with it when the character is confident well past their level of competence. I despise undeserved smugness. From the way the video maker described her - I haven't watched Iron Heart because I'm just done with the MCU in general - I probably would find Riri a bit insufferable, sorry.

But oh wow, I fucking haaayyyyyteeeeeed the way he framed Miorine (the girl with the long white hair) in the Tsundere section, acting like the moment of her punching Suletta was her being bitter and mean at first before "graaaaaadually" becoming nicer, represented by her hugging Suletta, when the punching and the hugging is from the same scene, Miorine is much weaker than Suletta (notice how Suletta just completely doesn't react to most of the punches Miroine was throwing), and Miorine was only upset with Suletta because Suletta was isolating herself in a panic due to a misunderstanding and refused to open up about her worries (to the point of locking herself in a bathroom and then trying to run away when Miroine tried to confront her about what she was upset about, Miroine being completely unable to keep up with her), which only made things worse.

EDIT: Also, doesn't the male lead of Familiar of Zero sexually assault Louis at some point? I watched like... 2 or 3 episodes of that show, and I found him a completely intolerable putz so I didn't really care that she was abusing him.

Toonstrack posted...

Uhhhh her father and best friend were killed in a shooting. Thsts still a broken family it was just broken apart externally

Yep, and Tony lost his entire family in 1 night
Toonstrack posted...

Iron Man had such a terrible life being mildly insulted by his dad before he left on business trips

I guess it's not as bad as having 2 loving parents
Toonstrack posted...

Poor Tony wiping away his tears with 5000 dollar bills.

He probably should've tried crying into his mom's arms...
Toonstrack posted...

Yea riri is a flawed character. She starts off robbing rich people and only looking out for herself. Tony stark spends a decade blowing up middle eastern people.

Tony was just chucking grenades at war orphans.

The only issue I have with the video itself (because I think he is speaking truth) is that he kinda jumps between making points about the craft of storytelling and the general creation of a narrative, to emotional reactions that have nothing to do with that.

People can hate a masterfully crafted narrative because it just is not what they want. In a similar sense, people can love a horribly told narrative because it is EXACTLY what they want. It's not as simple as saying that if someone doesn't like a well crafted narrative, there is some sort of inherent prejudice to it.

That's not to say that misogyny is NOT a huge aspect of all this because of course it is and will be forever. People shat all over The Marvels and that didn't have any of the "smugness" going on with Captain Marvel.

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I didnt concede because you were not right about what I was actually arguing.

I said FDS, misandry, femcel, and sexist content about men is on a much larger scale than you wish to acknowledge. You acknowledge it exist, but your argument to its existence is acting like its trivial. That is specifically where we actually disagree. Your focus on trying to compare who has more was never my main argument, you brought up things like reddit where you thought I was arguing it was the same.

Again, my main argument was sexism towards men though things like FDS, misandry, archaic sexist ideologies, femcels content extends well past just content openly labeling itself "FDS" or "Femcel." I even gave an example news segment that wasnt openly labeling itself FDS or anything close to that, but is very much sexism towards men and often goes unchecked for being sexist. That kind of content is more prevalent than you care to acknowledge and a lot of itis not called out. That was my main argument, and again it was a news segment that didnt openly labeling itself something like "Sheraseven" or "how to take adventure of men."

Theres sexism that frankly many dont even realize its frankly sexist. Advice videos, talk shows, even main stream movies and news segments that push an archaic expectation from men that definitely goes acknowledged. For example, expectations who will approach, plan, and pay for just a first date. Assumed protection or assistance because they are man. Standards that some dont even realize they just subconscious expect he should do.

No, what you did wasnt proving an objective fact that it wasnt on a larger scale than you care to acknowledge. And me saying its on a much larger scale than you care to acknowledge =/= its the exact same as whatever women go through. Which again digs into another issue of these gender topics.

The topic itself dug into exactly my issue with gender war variant topics. Using bsp, or frankly anyone whos agreeing with you, doesnt make ones position objective. So its not helpful to bring up x user(s) beyond fellow validation from someone who agrees with you.

You speak of inherent bias, its essentially how I feel everyone has in these type of topics. Its essentially what I argued even in the topic you rebrought up. These "deep dive discussions" concerning gender war variant are hardly ever a deep dive discussions. They're typically validation topics of people who agree with each others bias, and claiming they are right because those who agree with them already said so.

Actual points get lost in the weeds. Accusations of bias are thrown around while ignoring ones own bias. Conversation of privilege and victimhood is tossed around grossly and broadly, demanding others to approach the conversation with a perceived victim or privilege of a whole. The universal privilege/victim angle in particular, definitely doesnt help the conversation as not everyone benefits the same on privilege, and not everyone's a victim. Conversation tends to not be totally honest about some of the narratives coming out of both camps, and the goto argument to just dismiss sexism both face. Like for example, creating topics with a premise of sexism about an entire gender, but not being totally honest about the accusations tossed around in the premise.

But again, my point with these type of gender topics, its not really an all around honest and deep conversation beyond those who already agree with each other. Which IMO, isnt all that deep. You even claimed I'm the only one inciting a gender war, when the premise of the topic itself is literally about claiming double standards between genders. We cant even be honest with these type of topics are literally about gender wars. Nevermind be honest that some do falsely claim anyone who dares to critique a character that happens to be woman, has a sexist undertone reason... because again the premise asserts there likely is one.

Again, I dont think this is an issue unique to you, and Im not claiming to be innocent myself. But I dont find these type of topics typically to get all that deep beyond those who already agree with each other. They typically never actually and genuinely make a person who is arguing about instances of sexism outside of what a group wishes to acknowledge, feel heard. Which isnt what I'd call, deep.

"it's just a circle of people believing what they want to hear!", screamed the person who repeatedly ignores actual statistics in favor of whatever vibes match their preconceived notions

DrizztLink posted...

"it's just a circle of people believing what they want to hear!", screamed the person who repeatedly ignores actual statistics in favor of whatever vibes match their preconceived notions

Exhibit A
No stats actually addressed my point, and did more to dismiss any preconceived notion that sexism extends beyond just some of the things you are willing to acknowledge.

This pushed idea they are exactly the same was never a main point.

Buddy, I'm at best Exhibit Q.

You're covering the first half of the alphabet just from this topic.