Board 8 > Avatar: Seven Havens announced (new animated series)

(+) Yeah! (+)

would take all of those over MB era 2

yeah no fucking shit. I was disagreeing with you

MacArrowny posted...

would take all of those over MB era 2

lol

elantris > shadows of self is the most insane cosmere take I've seen in a hot minute

tcaz2 posted...

Also I don't really think that bending is super interesting as a magic system alone, it is literally just manipulating the four elements which is like, the most basic system imaginable and has been done since the beginning of time. It's always been interesting because of how the characters used it and mixed mystical with how their society functioned.

Right, it should be boring but it's elevated by the narrative, and the fact that it uses real martial arts which is really hard to do in animation.

We already have examples in Korra of bending being reduced to mostly a mechanical tool, and it's just less interesting. It's natural to fear more of that in a more sci-fi setting.

MacArrowny posted...

Mistborn Era 2 is the weakest part of the Cosmere books, though.

Considering it wasn't originally intended to be a full arc, I'd say it turned out pretty damn good.

Especially since Wax and Wayne are two of the best cosmere characters.

CassandraCain posted...

Considering it wasn't originally intended to be a full arc, I'd say it turned out pretty damn good.

Especially since Wax and Wayne are two of the best cosmere characters.

Steris and Wax is by far the best relationship Sanderson has ever done.

So that's a big point in its favor as well.

foolm0r0n posted...

If they invent a bending grenade, that would kinda suck. I think that's what people don't like about tech in fantasy magic. ATLA magic required you to learn a beautiful IRL-inspired martial arts form in order to do the water whip or lightning bend. They spent multiple episodes on learning and exploring those techniques and it had real weight in the story. While in the sci-fi setting any ol shmuck can just throw the water whip grenade or lightning grenade.

Korra already had that with pro bending, it was reduced to fire punch, water punch, earth punch. Lightning was reduced to a dayjob chore. That's a big reason people didn't like it as much, even though it did have strong thematic and narrative reasoning. S3 with the red lotus and the metalbenders brought back the beautiful bending and it was awesome.

100% correct

Also all the examples prople are coming up with of 'neat' ways to make bending relevant in space are boring as sin. Ship maintenance? Grenades? None of that is inherently interesting.

KamikazePotato posted...

100% correct

Also all the examples prople are coming up with of 'neat' ways to make bending relevant in space are boring as sin. Ship maintenance? Grenades? None of that is inherently interesting.

The point is that it takes about 4 seconds to come up with ideas. I came up with 8 ideas while on the subway putting minimal thought into this bro

and ftr, the challenge wasn't "neat ideas", it was "literally anything except blowing themselves up"

Okay but it doesn't matter if the ideas aren't good. That's generally implied in this sort of duscussion.

KamikazePotato posted...

Okay but it doesn't matter if the ideas aren't good. That's generally implied in this sort of duscussion.

You'd also think it'd be understood in this kind of discussion that the set of possible ideas isn't gonna be spanned by comments made by people with only a passing investment in the topic, and yet...

And for a writer, your reading comprehension isn't great. The idea of grenades was in specific reference to a specific work whose specific magic system was served by that specific tool. If you looked at the system with the zero imagination you're employing, you'd say it'd conflict with technology and there wouldn't be interesting applications. And then an entire arc was made about creative combinations of the magic system with developing technology and economies.

Damn, who pissed in your cheerios today?

KamikazePotato posted...

Damn, who pissed in your cheerios today?

I mean, I get rhetoric. I understand exaggeration for effect. But I think it's reasonable to think it's pretty obnoxious to say ~"wow these ideas are terrible. grenades in avatar would be so boring" when the post that mentions it said "Not to mention you could get things like inventions specifically built around the magic system" and "Now obviously that specific tech wouldn't work with how Avatar's bending works". You not only dodged the actual points we made multiple times, you ignored the explicit disclaimers we made to read the point backwards. It's not even disingenuous, you're straight-up lying about what was said

NFUN posted...

You not only dodged the actual points we made multiple times, you ignored the explicit disclaimers we made to read the point backwards

Acknowledge my point that Korra already did the "grenades" method in S1, before you talk about others dodging.

The point is that even if the grenades analogue interesting, which is definitely was in Korra (and I'm sure it also was in the original story you're referencing), it's still not as cool as what ATLA had and not what people want from the series.

Sure buddy. Feel free to claim victory in the internet argument if it means that much to you.

foolm0r0n posted...

Acknowledge my point that Korra already did the "grenades" method in S1, before you talk about others dodging.

The point is that even if the grenades analogue interesting, which is definitely was in Korra (and I'm sure it also was in the original story you're referencing), it's still not as cool as what ATLA had and not what people want from the series.

NFUN posted...

the point is you adapt it to the setting

The arc of Mistborn is increasing commercialization and exploitation of magic as society advances. It's a corrupt Gilded Age. A good narrative for Avatar would be tradition vs modernity, fall of the samurai style. If that's not the narrative the writers want to tell then they can invent different technologies that resonate with the story

KamikazePotato posted...

Sure buddy. Feel free to claim victory in the internet argument if it means that much to you.

so in response to me asking you to stop putting words in my mouth, you put words in my mouth. exceptional

Did you quote my post accidentally?

foolm0r0n posted...

Did you quote my post accidentally?

No. If I need to be more explicit, there are definitely ways of incorporating new "less interesting" methods in the story (which should still be good in practical and thematic senses) in order to create an interesting conflict exploring the consequences of the technology, and there are also definitely ways of creating technologies that preserve what made the unaltered system great if that's the direction the writers prefer the narrative to be taken in. Like for example, this is definitely a stupid idea. Nobody should actually ever make this. But tell me mechs that utilize the original martial art forms to bend wouldn't go at least a little hard

Didn't Korra kind of do Mech-Avatar? What am I thinking of? Did I dream it? I feel like I've seen it before.

I mean I thought your response was a joke because this describes Korra S1 pretty exactly, except with Industrial Age instead. Like I said, it was cool but not THAT cool.

And they did do a lot of mech and kaiju stuff but it was easily the worst stuff in the series.

NFUN posted...

The arc of Mistborn is increasing commercialization and exploitation of magic as society advances. It's a corrupt Gilded Age. A good narrative for Avatar would be tradition vs modernity, fall of the samurai style.

colliding posted...

Didn't Korra kind of do Mech-Avatar? What am I thinking of? Did I dream it? I feel like I've seen it before.

It was a spirit kaiju thing in S2. There was also a mecha kaiju final boss in S4.

Korra is post-industrial. The Last Airbender is industrial.

foolm0r0n posted...

I mean I thought your response was a joke because this describes Korra S1 pretty exactly, except with Industrial Age instead. Like I said, it was cool but not THAT cool.

And they did do a lot of mech and kaiju stuff but it was easily the worst stuff in the series.

I didn't watch Korra yet so. Regardless, was it so uninteresting as to be a fundamental flaw, or is there something there and it just comes down to execution and taste, with a bit of a bias of one idea just generally working better?

NFUN posted...

was it so uninteresting as to be a fundamental flaw

I think so, because like you suggested, the conflict was between commercialization/modernity and craft/tradition. They had to show the banality of the modern magic for the conflict to work. If it was sick af then there would be no conflict, it would just be "oh that's sick af"

The execution was great too. They introduced so much setting in a small # of episodes, and made it fit with the original series, and used the banality as the base for an interesting morally gray villain (i.e. why have benders if bending is not that special anymore). All of that was good. It just didn't hit like ATLA did.

foolm0r0n posted...

I think so, because like you suggested, the conflict was between commercialization/modernity and craft/tradition. They had to show the banality of the modern magic for the conflict to work. If it was sick af then there would be no conflict, it would just be "oh that's sick af"

The execution was great too. They introduced so much setting in a small # of episodes, and made it fit with the original series, and used the banality as the base for an interesting morally gray villain (i.e. why have benders if bending is not that special anymore). All of that was good. It just didn't hit like ATLA did.

Fair enough. To continue the Mistborn analogy, the next arc will be a cyberpunk setting where presumably you'll get both very unambiguously and intentionally cool applications of the magitech alongside the societal conflicts, but I think that vibe would fit a lot less well with Avatar than like Meiji Restoration.

foolm0r0n posted...

I think so, because like you suggested, the conflict was between commercialization/modernity and craft/tradition. They had to show the banality of the modern magic for the conflict to work. If it was sick af then there would be no conflict, it would just be "oh that's sick af"

The execution was great too. They introduced so much setting in a small # of episodes, and made it fit with the original series, and used the banality as the base for an interesting morally gray villain (i.e. why have benders if bending is not that special anymore). All of that was good. It just didn't hit like ATLA did.

yup, it was a great little story but also the whole point was "being the avatar is less special now" and made for less interesting of a long-term story (one of the issues with korra overall)

LightningStrikes posted...

Korra is post-industrial. The Last Airbender is industrial.

Thinking about it, ATLA introducing industrial tech is a big problem for any sequel set afterwards. It's great in the context of the original series, but extrapolating further into the future leads to a world where bending just matters less. And Korra already did the "what is the point of the Avatar if bending is less awesome?" plot, so they can't fall back on that either.

I havent had time to write a full post as there has been a lot of discourse but being the Avatar still has huge advantages in any setting. Also being the Avatar isnt just about powers, its a spiritual role. Despite living in a more modernised world, Korra was probably the most consequential Avatar for the world since Wan overall.

korra is the most consequential avatar according to the story because they exploded the scope of it, but that season is universally considered the worst avatar season. which essentially proves that just because the series tells us that the stakes are infinity doesn't actually make the storytelling more compelling

I wasnt even just thinking about season 2! Even the setup to this new show revolves around Korra.

Also, the reason its the worst Avatar season is because the first half is wildly uneven and they didnt have the usual studio for half of it. Once it gets into the spiritual stuff it gets good.

I think there's a strong minority (me included) who think the Wan stuff is some of the worst writing in the whole franchise. Cool as a standalone animation though.

LightningStrikes posted...

Also being the Avatar isnt just about powers, its a spiritual role.

True, but I doubt there'd be as big an audience for that kind of story. Cool fight scenes are one of the big draws of the franchise. Cutting down on that to focus on spirit stuff probably wouldn't be very popular.

foolm0r0n posted...

I think there's a strong minority (me included) who think the Wan stuff is some of the worst writing in the whole franchise. Cool as a standalone animation though.

I like the idea of delving into the origins of the Avatar but I didnt care much for those episodes. I know they are beloved by most but yeah its not great imo. I thought it was mid tier for Korra episodes.

For reference I also dont care much for Tales of Ba Sing Se from TLA. A non-lore heavy episode I adore is The Cave of Two Lovers

I dont care for the Wan stuff either

i thought that stuff was universally disliked but i might be confusing it with just dislike of season 2 as a whole.

i mean fans never like it when a show's canon is radically changed or whatever (i think that's what happened i barely remember that season)

The series has been radically changing its canon the whole time.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1695360/episodes/?topRated=DESC&ref_=ttep

They're two of the top-rated episodes overall, yeah. They're widely loved and considered the only redeeming graces of S2. Not to say everyone should like them - I didn't think they were amazing, but I would say they're better than most of S2.

varrick was the best part of S2 by a wide margin. those 2 episodes were fine but the season was a mess. definitely disagree that S2 became good after those episodes.

I don't dislike the Wan episodes, but I never really got all the love for them either. They're just kind of okay, which admittedly does make them the best episodes of Korra S2 by default. I'm not really a big fan of lore/backstory stuff like that in general, though. The correct answer to "Why is there an Avatar?" is "Meh, if it was really interesting that's where the story would have started".

Wan episodes were the only parts of Season 2 I remember liking.

SeabassDebeste posted...

varrick was the best part of S2 by a wide margin. those 2 episodes were fine but the season was a mess. definitely disagree that S2 became good after those episodes.

Did anyone say it did? S2 goes right back to being bad after imo.

Xeybozn posted...

The correct answer to "Why is there an Avatar?" is "Meh, if it was really interesting that's where the story would have started".

Which technically was the answer they used, since the only reason they wrote those episodes was to justify Korra breaking the avatar cycle. They knew the origin story itself was not good enough on its own.

MacArrowny posted...

Did anyone say it did? S2 goes right back to being bad after imo.

lightning strikes did

Missed that I got CALLED OUT so yeah Season 2 is s lot better in the second half. In particular A New Spiritual Age is a very good episode. Its not like, amazing or anything, just a lot better.