Current Events > Do Dems need to start co-opting the Maga movement

(+) Yeah! (+)

This election is going to change my default assumptions going forward.

Trust the Dems? Lol. Clean house and postmortems at every level before ever asking for another cent. I trust them to lose.

Trust the polls? Yes, but no. National polls tell the most complete story at the moment.

Maybe the only Dems I trust right now are the survivors. The Suozzis, the Slotkins. The people that knew how to outperform Harris somehow. Interestingly, Suozzi got practically zero votes on the fused Common Sense ballot line.

WingsOfGood posted...

as insight people in a dem only bubble wouldn't see, Asmongold considered a chud by many on CE has said he is in favor of UBI and while he voted for Trump in 2016 he felt Trump didn't deliver much and voted guess who in 2020?

Bernie

He is also in favor of socialized healthcare

and yet he is gleeful that trump won this time as he is making content laughing at people upset

Starks posted...

This election is going to change my default assumptions going forward.

Trust the Dems? Lol. Clean house and postmortems at every level before ever asking for another cent. I trust them to lose.

Trust the polls? Yes, but no. National polls tell the most complete story at the moment.

Maybe the only Dems I trust right now are the survivors. The Suozzis, the Slotkins. The people that knew how to outperform Harris somehow. Interestingly, Suozzi got practically zero votes on the fused Common Sense ballot line.

Ain't wrong.

I honestly feel bad for Sherrod Brown and John Tester. They did nothing wrong, and were great soldiers.

One reason I'm just also...pessimistic on the idea we can win by running guys who are reasonable and populist...

that was Sherrod Brown! He was a great senator. Came off as relatable, blue collar, totally came through in multiple elections and he was a staunch populist who did all of this.

Moreno creamed him because....Ohio is just too right now

To double-down on my congressman for a moment. I don't agree with him on social issues, at all. Let me make that clear. But no other Dem after Steve Israel has been seen as capably winning this seat.

https://www.axios.com/2024/11/07/democrats-blame-game-2024-election-harris

"Instead of saying, 'How can people vote for Donald Trump,' we should be asking 'Why do people vote for Donald Trump'... what did he do right and what did we do wrong," Rep. Tom Suozzi (D-N.Y.) told Axios.

...

Suozzi, a moderate, told Axios, "We have to stop pandering to the base and we have to start listening to the people ... people are sick of extremism."

...

Suozzi predicted that he is "going to get beaten up" for his post-election takes.

A big problem is that right wing voting is anchored at deep levels of people's identity. They vote Republican because they're white, because they're male, because they're Christian, because they love America, because they're rural etc. Things that don't tend to change.

We need something equally durable and equally widespread. A certain type of union membership is the only thing I can think of. It needs to be memberships in social groups or identity groups that make the idea of voting Republican unfathomable. Only Black women on the Democratic side still have that. People can't just be untethered individuals voting on fear and self-interest or we're gonna have problems.

The reality is now "if you're explaining, you're losing". Voters have zero patience for anything beyond sound bites. You can't fix that.

One thing that's also clear is that voters will happily separate issues like abortion measures from their vote at the top of the ballot.

legendary_zell posted...

A big problem is that right wing voting is anchored at deep levels of people's identity. They vote Republican because they're white, because they're male, because they're Christian, because they love America, because they're rural etc. Things that don't tend to change.

We need something equally durable and equally widespread. A certain type of union membership is the only thing I can think of. It needs to be memberships in social groups or identity groups that make the idea of voting Republican unfathomable. Only Black women on the Democratic side still have that. People can't just be untethered individuals voting on fear and self-interest or we're gonna have problems.

Left-wing parties trying to be the champion of minority as some kind of antithesis of the Right-wing have problems because just because they're minorities doesn't mean they will get along together for a common cause.

Republicans have shown just how stupid people actually are. Democrats need to actually appeal to their caveman brains. Stop assuming they'll do the right thing. Promise them stuff they'll actually want to hear, even if they have no intention on keeping them.

nocturnal_traveler posted...

Republicans have shown just how stupid people actually are. Democrats need to actually appeal to their caveman brains. Stop assuming they'll do the right thing. Promise them stuff they'll actually want to hear, even if they have no intention on keeping them.

reminds me of how the biggest mistake hillary made was being HONEST about coal mining jobs

LightSnake posted...

Zell, I am very questioning this notion that racism is only on the table because of economic populism being off it, and not sure that holds up on scrutiny. The phenomenon of how people love programs, but will sabotage them to avoid minorities benefiting has been there a while. It doesn't seem like economics fix racism. You seem to be committing the error rof assumiing everything comes from a rational, monetary self interest.

There are people who fully acknowledge they're not harmed by immigration or brown people. Point in fact, they'rre doing fine. Except they think there's a big pile of money immigrants get while Americans are struggling and that's "not fair." Many Trump supporters are firmly affluent professionals, they're not hurting or suffering, and their needs are met fine. they're still vehemently racist and vote for Trump because they really feel they're being threatened. I think you're underestimating how often racism and bigotry stands on its own as a factor

That's what's scary about the modern GOP. They've been able to build a coalition that includes:

-Wealthy millionaires and billionaires who want lower tax cuts and permanent control of society
-Working-class white Americans who feel left behind by structural shifts in the economy
-Working-class Blacks and Latinos (Trump literally won 30% of the vote in the Bronx which is fucking terrifying) who feel that the Democratic party is not speaking to their challenges
-White evangelicals who are single-issue voters on anti-LGBT and anti-abortion issues
-Suburban whites who buy into bigotry as the main issue (i.e. "Moms for Liberty" types)

And the thing is, the Democrats *should* be able to make inroads with this crowd. Devout Christians *should* be able to get on board with a party that cares more about the poor and the sick. Working-class white Americans *should* be able to get on board with a party that will create new jobs by investing in infrastructure and growth sectors of the economy. Blacks and Latinos *should* be able to get on board with a party that wants to make housing more affordable in urban areas.

Perhaps the problem is that Democrats aren't actually getting these things done on the local level? After all, NYC has been run by Democrats for decades, yet housing is as unaffordable as it has ever been. We need a combination of better messaging and curation of online content (LightSnake made a point about this in another topic and I agree), but we also need results. It is hard for Democrats to claim that we're best-equipped to address the issues of high costs/low wages when Democrats preside over the cities and states with the least affordable housing.

Need to start thinking quickly. 2025 local primaries and gubernatorial races are about to start.

All eyes on Spanberger in VA and whatever NJ decides to do to make the race unreasonably close.

Starks posted...

Need to start thinking quickly. 2025 local primaries and gubernatorial races are about to start.

All eyes on Spanberger in VA and whatever NJ decides to do to make the race unreasonably close.

Democrats need to start getting shit done on the state and local level. We need to see affordable housing complexes going up in NYC like, yesterday.

You're from LI, right? I used to live in Nassau and now I've moved to Forest Hills. I'm going to try and get involved in some local politics in the area, or at least some volunteer organizations.

Diceheist posted...

Newsom is literal governor of California, no matter how many progressive proposals he's vetoed he's still passed too much, he will get rammed by so much propaganda even Vance or DeSantis could squeak by him. Basically no coastal Dem. is gonna work, especially not a corporate one who can't even carry the progressive left while the midwestern moderates reject him.

I'm not so sure about DeSantis. He'll get torn apart over the skyrocketing homeowner's insurance costs in Florida. Even a lot of the chuds are pissed about that (granted their solution is deregulation, tax breaks for insurance companies, or making the lives of people living near water a living hell. Assuming they have a solution at all, which many of the chuds don't.) Some of the chuds basically view it as "DeSantis is too busy going after Disney instead of trying to lower insurance rates"

That said, they'll rip into Newsom over plenty of things as well, such as the wildfires (because they think that conservation is a form of forest mismanagement) or the homeless problem in California.

Hyena_Of_Ice posted...

I'm not so sure about DeSantis. He'll get torn apart over the skyrocketing homeowner's insurance costs in Florida. Even a lot of the chuds are pissed about that (granted their solution is deregulation, tax breaks for insurance companies, or making the lives of people living near water a living hell. Assuming they have a solution at all, which many of the chuds don't.) Some of the chuds basically view it as "DeSantis is too busy going after Disney instead of trying to lower insurance rates"

That said, they'll rip into Newsom over plenty of things as well, such as the wildfires (because they think that conservation is a form of forest mismanagement) or the homeless problem in California.

And ripping Newsom and the Dems for the homeless problem in CA would be justified.

Democrats control the state legislature and the governorship in CA. They control most of the major cities. If affordable housing complexes aren't going up, it's because Democrats are standing in the way.

Tbh, nothing about the crazy shift for Trump here in NYC, especially in Queens and the BX, was unexpected. Especially because of the migrant crisis.

SSj4Wingzero posted...

Democrats need to start getting shit done on the state and local level. We need to see affordable housing complexes going up in NYC like, yesterday.

You're from LI, right? I used to live in Nassau and now I've moved to Forest Hills. I'm going to try and get involved in some local politics in the area, or at least some volunteer organizations.

Yes. I need to see how my local Dems react to all the precinct-level GIS and maps we have. So much data to review and It's all amazingly granular.

InfinityMonster posted...

Tbh, nothing about the crazy shift for Trump here in NYC, especially in Queens and the BX, was unexpected. Especially because of the migrant crisis.

I think the migrant issue is certainly part of it, but I do think that voters are starting to really get sick of the fact that we constantly elect Democrats and yet:

-Housing in the city gets more and more expensive
-It's harder and harder to find a place to live since nothing new ever gets built unless it's luxury shit
-The subway seems to get more dangerous all the time
-Homelessness seems worse than it has been

Like, these have always been problems, but then the migrant issue makes it even worse because challenges that NYers actually face are being pushed even further back. If Democrats want to win nationally, they need to start delivering on the local level first.

Starks posted...

Yes. I need to see how my local Dems react to all the precinct-level GIS and maps we have. So much data to review and It's all amazingly granular.

It's certainly quite interesting if nothing else. I'm going to try and get involved locally...about all we can do at this point.

I think that going "but racism!" precludes a lot of options that simply weren't actually taken

such as actually letting the voterbase know of all these positive actions taken by the administration so the narrative doesn't get straight up hijacked by republicans. Again

Voidgolem posted...

such as actually letting the voterbase know of all these positive actions taken by the administration so the narrative doesn't get straight up hijacked by republicans. Again

How do we prevent Republicans from hijacking narratives when they've got a propaganda machine that runs 24/7 on podcasts, cable news, AM radio, and social media plus a "liberal" media that's all to happy to carry water for them.

darkace77450 posted...

How do we prevent Republicans from hijacking narratives when they've got a propaganda machine that runs 24/7 on podcasts, cable news, AM radio, and social media plus a "liberal" media that's all to happy to carry water for them.

I dunno I'm not the candidate that broke fundraising records week 1

I feel like going forward the democrats are going to bleed members as those who were only wearing the Democrat name to try and get anywhere dump it to wear the progressive banner, the libertrian banner or even a new banner, all of which will get no where because in this country you need corporation support to get on the air, to get on TV shows and podcasters that people watch are heavily right wing alined they may talk to a libertrian or a progressive or a green or whatever but it's not going to help their election like it would a Republican, there were people who voted for Trump just because they saw him on the under taker's podcast and joe rogan they didn't care what he said or what he didn't say they cared he was there and the hosts deified him.

I genuinely think we need a reframing and restructuring of the Democratic party. I think the impression of the Democratic party is that of bicoastal elites that don't give a shit about the working class (no matter how true or not this issue) and this election proves that. I think moving forward any politicians with a D next to their name is going to have a hard time winning a general election, unless there is a massive imaging swing. It just seems like they have a toxic poisonous stigma attached to the name.

We need to reject the Pelosi, Schumer, Jeffries, and Newsoms of the party and start to elevate the working class members into leadership positions. Bashear, Walz, hell even Shawn Fain. We need these people to become the leading voices of the Democratic party moving forward, to help communicate the idea of not being like the "old" Democratic party. Like a fresh coat of paint.

Otherwise, the Republicans are just going to run the same smear tactic that always works. If you notice in this election, the best "attack" that they had for Walz was that his son cried during his speech and he got a DUI once. Really weak shit that they abandoned within a day because it wasn't sticking.

If we don't address the core failures of how bad this campaign wise, the same time tested tactics used against us will just be used time and time again.

Dont forget the media dems and liberals have no media reach like republicans do theyre everywhere theyd be here as well on anime and game boards

I think the Dems best chance at winning in the future is to stop trying to appeal to smart, reasonable, sensible voters and instead go after the dumbest of the dumb voters.

This country is too fucking stupid for logics. We need a celebrity to run. A well loved celebrity. It's practically the only way at this point. People love celebrities and hate career politicians.

Candidate Eminem maybe. He could spit fire at Trump and make the dumbass voters impressed as he does it. Stretches across multiple generations too.

legendary_zell posted...

Racism is winning because economic populism has been taken off the table as an option completely. When the root causes can't be addressed, all that's left is lashing out at scapegoats, fighting to hoard smaller pieces of the pie. People see their standards of living slipping and when there's precarity, it's easy to say "this is happening because brown people from elsewhere are taking your tax money and jobs." And that's the only thing that's on offer, that has a realistic chance of happening, so people press that button.

I agree that the media is unconscionable and could hardly have done a better job of walking Trump to the doors of the Whitehouse. We need independent left media to connect the dots for people and unabashedly attack the right.

The best answer to the election I've seen yet. Claiming to offer "relief" (even in the form of far-right conspiracy bullshit) from the post-covid price increases decided the race.

The_Eko posted...

I think the Dems best chance at winning in the future is to stop trying to appeal to smart, reasonable, sensible voters and instead go after the dumbest of the dumb voters.

By giving stimmies

012yArthur0 posted...

Left-wing parties trying to be the champion of minority as some kind of antithesis of the Right-wing have problems because just because they're minorities doesn't mean they will get along together for a common cause.

Yeah, this is something I've pondered over a while back.

The left-wing has an issue of "too many cooks", as it tries to appeal to the interests of women, minorities, LGBT, etc., and not all of them play nice with each other on every topic.

Meanwhile, the right-wing's primary focus is on the interests of White men, and they can all unify together on that front to push their agendas forward. It also doesn't help that rich White men primarily own all of the media, social media platforms, and such.

Solar_Crimson posted...

Yeah, this is something I've pondered over a while back.

The left-wing has an issue of "too many cooks", as it tries to appeal to the interests of women, minorities, LGBT, etc., and not all of them play nice with each other on every topic.

Meanwhile, the right-wing's primary focus is on the interests of White men, and they can all unify together on that front to push their agendas forward. It also doesn't help that rich White men primarily own all of the media, social media platforms, and such.

You can see this with Muslim and LGBT. Both are minorities, and one hates the other guts. I don't know how bad the situation is but it seems to be a problem in Europe and Canada. Not sure about the USA.

Not to mention the racial tensions between Asians and Blacks.

The left/Dems is a mosaic desperately trying to glue everything together.

012yArthur0 posted...

You can see this with Muslim and LGBT. Both are minorities, and one hates the other guts. I don't know how bad the situation is but it seems to be a problem in Europe and Canada. Not sure about the USA.

Not to mention the racial tensions between Asians and Blacks.

The left/Dems is a mosaic desperately trying to glue everything together.

Ignoring your broad generalizations of Muslim people in this country, there's a reason for this.

We're the party of coming together in the face of our differences. We're not gonna leave a minority group behind even if it was easier for political gain. That's fucking gross.

At the end of the day we're all facing the same class struggle. We want to message to all groups that our party is the one that wants to unite behind that struggle and change it moving forward. If you leave a group behind, it leaves an opening for another party to swoop in and steal their vote (ie, the Latino vote in this election)

Even in the face of blatant racism and threatening to deport illegal immigrants (some of whom they may be related to) the Republican party was able to convince Latino voters that they have their best interest in heart by fixing the economy that is hurting a vast majority of them (and all of us)

I think Democrats need to adopt a real populist platform. They can't go left on social issues while being the party of institutions and the status quo on economic ones. The status quo sucks for a lot of people. Trump is offering a form of populism. It's a toxic right-wing populism that requires you to either be okay with or willfully ignore the bigotry behind it, but it seems like a lot of people are willing to go that route when it looks like their only option for meaningful change.

Like someone else in the topic said, they need to lean into the things that can actually help regular people that the GOP would never do. Raise the minimum wage, strengthen unions, enact M4A, all that kind of stuff.

And don't go along with the Republican narrative when they try to tell poor Americans that they reason they're poor is because of immigrants. Don't respond by saying you tried to pass a border security bill but couldn't. Call it out for the lie it is, tell people what the wealthy have done in this country to devalue labor and what you're going to do about it.

UnsteadyOwl posted...

I think Democrats need to adopt a real populist platform. They can't go left on social issues while being the party of institutions and the status quo on economic ones. The status quo sucks for a lot of people. Trump is offering a form of populism. It's a toxic right-wing populism that requires you to either be okay with or willfully ignore the bigotry behind it, but it seems like a lot of people are willing to go that route when it looks like their only option for meaningful change.

Like someone else in the topic said, they need to lean into the things that can actually help regular people that the GOP would never do. Raise the minimum wage, strengthen unions, enact M4A, all that kind of stuff.

And don't go along with the Republican narrative when they try to tell poor Americans that they reason they're poor is because of immigrants. Don't respond by saying you tried to pass a border security bill but couldn't. Call it out for the lie it is, tell people what the wealthy have done in this country to devalue labor and what you're going to do about it.

look Im sorry but every time they do this, they get punished for it. We need a new playbook

Like. Harris campaigned on ending price gouging and her major attack on Trump in her tv ads was that he's a billionaire who only looks out for other billionaires. It just failed. People really hate inflation.

You haven't ever answered what the "new playbook" is that doesn't involve going left. You seem to think that they already went left, I don't think anyone agrees with that or feels that.

The only options you seem open to are some type of rightward shift. I don't see how promising to do less, to solve fewer problems, to be closer to Republicans is get to get more votes.

Campaigning on "ending price gouging" with no specifics or credibility behind it, while claiming that the economy is simultaneously great and that you won't do anything different than the unpopular President is not a left wing campaign. This was not an us vs them working class campaign in policy or rhetoric. It was focused on abortion (nothing wrong with this, I thought this was gonna work) and the danger Trump represents primarily, addressing economic pain through policy was a third or fourth tier message only occasionally hinted at, it wasn't the main theme of the campaign or her policies.

I think it boils down to facing a reality that you have to go after the electorate that exists. Trying to cobble a coalition together and then realize it doesn't exist in the numbers you need does not serve anyone well.

Starks posted...

I think it boils down to facing a reality that you have to go after the electorate that exists. Trying to cobble a coalition together and then realize it doesn't exist in the numbers you need does not serve anyone well.

I think addressing practical, pocketbook, economic concerns and the pervading sense that things are rigged and going in the wrong direction does that. Going after fake moderates doesn't. Focusing on the danger of Republicans doesn't. Coalitions based on identity politics sadly don't as groups integrate racially or have conflict with each other. The most populous group of voters is people who work for a living, getting them onside is the surest path to victory.

legendary_zell posted...

Campaigning on "ending price gouging" with no specifics or credibility behind it, while claiming that the economy is simultaneously great and that you won't do anything different than the unpopular President is not a left wing campaign. This was not an us vs them working class campaign in policy or rhetoric. It was focused on abortion (nothing wrong with this, I thought this was gonna work) and the danger Trump represents primarily, addressing economic pain through policy was a third or fourth tier message only occasionally hinted at, it wasn't the main theme of the campaign or her policies.

Again, this seems focused on priors and the "One Neat Trick". Like, let's say Dems run on, I dunno, UHC. But now you're saying we need specifics and credibility...even when THAT has failed before.

Like, now that we have a clearer picture of races, there was a ton of ticket splitting and even some great reps lost. Mary Peltola was a terrific rep in Alaska who delivered results. She's almost certainly gonna lose.

End of the day, the story is the Dems delivered on the economy and provided results. Many people directly provided for gaslit themselves into thinking the economy was bad and split their tickets because they wanted Dems at the state level but Trump in the Oval Office.

LightSnake posted...

Again, this seems focused on priors and the "One Neat Trick". Like, let's say Dems run on, I dunno, UHC. But now you're saying we need specifics and credibility...even when THAT has failed before.

Like, now that we have a clearer picture of races, there was a ton of ticket splitting and even some great reps lost. Mary Peltola was a terrific rep in Alaska who delivered results. She's almost certainly gonna lose.

End of the day, the story is the Dems delivered on the economy and provided results. Many people directly provided for gaslit themselves into thinking the economy was bad and split their tickets because they wanted Dems at the state level but Trump in the Oval Office.

You're saying I'm sticking to priors, but after all the conversation over the past two days, you're still sticking to the line that the economy was great, and people tricked themselves into thinking it wasn't for reasons. Dude, if you can't understand that most people disagree with that, and why, then you will never have a winning analysis. You are wrong about that, straight up, point blank period. There is no moving on until you accept that and proceed on that basis.

It's not one neat trick, it's a reinforcing cycle of either credibility and action or lack of credibility and inaction. Delivering in tangible ways builds credibility and faith. But we haven't delivered since the Johnson presidency. We let the working class and the middle class be hollowed out and squeezed through the killing of unions, manufacturing, offshoring, low paying service jobs, high college costs, no more easy, high paying jobs and low cost of living that built the middle class. We abandoned new deal liberalism and replaced it with neoliberalism. We completely forget how to respond to ordinary people's concerns or how to formulate a policy that isn't a tax credit for certain people in certain zipcodes making less than $38,027.26. That has killed our credibility when we say we're the party of the working class and will change anything.

Half of one term with a few cool policies isn't enough to get it back. Republicans acknowledge that people want the results of all that back and acknowledge that it's gone away, they promise that they'll bring it back if we just give them absolute power and kick out all the immigrants. Democrats say there's no issue or that nothing can be done and you're naive to ask. It shouldn't be a surprise that a coalition of people who believe the lies and people who just want more money or hate immigrants wins over a demotivated, disenchanted, disparate "coalition"