Current Events > I guess a problem with Kingdom Hearts is it didn't grow up with its audience.

(+) Yeah! (+)

If anything it became more immature. Not that it's a necessary component for a series to grow up with its audience, but for a story-driven game it's slightly more expected. Even Harry Potter grew up with its audience. Hell, even God of War grew up with its audience and matured.

But KH 3 in particular doesn't improve upon KH 2, it only makes it worse. The good becomes bad, the bad became worse.

The original fanfiction it does is embarrassingly more juvenile than their cringey weak recreations of the disney movies that they insert the characters into.

With it being about Disney...they were limited to how mature they could go though.

I think the giant gap between II and III and a bunch of spinoffs in between is a bigger problem.

I think you are partially correct.

Also just making it up with no plan as they went along.

Probably also some Disney meddling.

And SE being terrible after 2003

I'm not sure if I'd agree with that. I imagine a child stepping into more modern KH games would be extremely put off and that we fans are only okay with it because of sunk cost.

A child would never be able to follow what the story turned into, . Most adults even seem to struggle with it.

The problem is that Nomura cannot let a good, poignant moment stick.

Whole series spoilers, but there is no fucking reason why Roxas, Axel, and ESPECIALLY xion should have ever come back. It cheapens their story so fucking hard, but nope. Can't have a good tragic story sit; we need that happy ending for everybody.

It'sthe main reason why I think so poorly of the final fantasy 7 remakes. As soon as I found out they were rewriting the story, I had an unshakeable feeling in my gut that it was a long winded, blowhard excuse to retcon THAT death. To cheapen the story and give it a more unequivocal happy ending than the more bittersweet-but-hopeful end of the oroginal. It's not over yet, so time will tell if I end up being right, I guess.

^ ^ Interestingly enough even non-hacks like Nolan or the Russo brothers, have done the hacky thing that a lot of media (including Nomura's work) have done; undoing a character's arc they previously seemed to show they understood, in favor of a really rubbish "happy" ending that is anything but.

In an attempt to make a finality to a story, they'd rather sacrifice literally every element for that kinda cheap ending.

I don't think it really needed to grow up with its audience. Like post 2 said, the inclusion of Disney probably prevents it from going too far. I think KH2's level of maturity is just fine.

The issue is that it just got flatout worse. Sora is the case in point. In KH1 and KH2, he's kind of dopey but he's an actual character with his own opinions and internal conflicts. In KH3, he's just a fucking moron who says generic good guy talk.

Yeah you should have been able to romance Goofy and Elsa BG3 style.

LeoRavus posted...

Yeah you should have been able to romance Goofy and Elsa BG3 style.

Goofy does not romance.

Goofy fucks.

pegusus123456 posted...

I don't think it really needed to grow up with its audience. Like post 2 said, the inclusion of Disney probably prevents it from going too far. I think KH2's level of maturity is just fine.

The issue is that it just got flatout worse. Sora is the case in point. In KH1 and KH2, he's kind of dopey but he's an actual character with his own opinions and internal conflicts. In KH3, he's just a fucking moron who says generic good guy talk.

In KH2 he may have been a little too yaoi-like in his search for Riku, but otherwise yeah I'd say it's a somewhat natural progression of a young boy slowly growing up into a young adult. Haley Joel Osment being approximately the same age definitely helped then too. But Sora being voiced by a 30 year old while behaving like a 10 year old is definitely off-putting in those later installments.

The atrocious voice acting and glaringly obvious weird dialogue pauses didn't help either. They were absolutely not that egregious in 2. Or even 1, kinks and all.

Yeah that dialogue scene setup in KH3 is so fucking weird. It's like some sort of pre-Mass Effect 1 methodology to dialogue in games.

obsolete posted...

I think the giant gap between II and III and a bunch of spinoffs in between is a bigger problem.

Also the fact that they aren't really spinoffs. They're all continuations of the main plot.

I wonder how things would have gone if they gave them all numbered titles. 358/2 Days being instead Kingdom Hearts V or whatever.

pegusus123456 posted...

Goofy does not romance.

Goofy fucks.

Goofy does not fuck.

Goofy hyucks.

The story is a mess, but it's a fun mess.
While the finer details and explanations for things happening are convoluted, the broad strokes are easy to understand, and that's enough for the fans.
Good guys are usually obvious good guys. Look at all our allies in their bright colors. Let's go on an adventure.
Bad guys are obvious bad guys. What's Xehanort's plan? Can someone explain it? Who cares: we have to fight this obvious bad dude from doing this obvious bad thing.
Big plot moments are big plot moments. Most don't care about the details of Roxas returning. Most aren't thinking about the replica body or Demyx's role in that moment. They saw that scene and all they think is "Roxas came back!"

And that's okay.
The games are fun as hell in gameplay and story.

It's not a problem because it doesn't need to grow up at all.

Hambo posted...

Goofy does not fuck.

Goofy hyucks.

Close the topic, we aren't surpassing this.

The problem with Kingdom Hearts was spreading the games across a million different consoles and using annoying gimmicky gameplay for the handhelds.

Its nice that you can get pretty much everything on one platform now, but at the time it was super frustrating.

I still dearly love the first game and Kingdom Hearts II though. And III isnt bad at all.

But, man, it wouldve been nice if they had just released one really solid game every few years on a single platform (or, hell, make it multi-console / PC).

rexcrk posted...

Its nice that you can get pretty much everything on one platform now, but at the time it was super frustrating.

They also still have the super gimmicky gameplay :/

i wish i could buy just kingdom hearts 2 on current platforms instead of the bundle that comes with all the other games

actually i wish i could buy just the gummi ship portion of the game

viewmaster_pi posted...

i wish i could buy just kingdom hearts 2 on current platforms instead of the bundle that comes with all the other games

You'd end up buying the inferior version of KH2 instead of the FM version

viewmaster_pi posted...

actually i wish i could buy just the gummi ship portion of the game

Didn't expect to see a man of culture in this topic.

Someone ITT complained about how things turned out with Roxas, but frankly, 2 didnt do a good enough job with his ending. He was so evidently a different person from Sora, but his merging was presented as a good thing. It becomes even more eyeroll worthy with Days, where it turns out he didnt know Namine at all before 2. His ending was just bad there, not really satisfying at all.

rexcrk posted...

The problem with Kingdom Hearts was spreading the games across a million different consoles and using annoying gimmicky gameplay for the handhelds.

Its nice that you can get pretty much everything on one platform now, but at the time it was super frustrating.

I still dearly love the first game and Kingdom Hearts II though. And III isnt bad at all.

But, man, it wouldve been nice if they had just released one really solid game every few years on a single platform (or, hell, make it multi-console / PC).

BBS was straight up easier to play with an actual controller and actual analog sticks (2 of them in fact) right. I remember when KH 2.5 came out 10 years ago I debated whether I even wanted to play BBS again, and decided I'll play it just to see what the Final Mix version offered. I think I remember not hating the experience as much as I did on the psp. It may have even changed my attitude on the game from dislike to straight up... not completely dislike.

And all because it was slightly more tolerable to play. Nothing else had changed, but being able to use a controller made all the difference in tolerating the story and dreadfully repeated gameplay.

PerseusRad posted...

He was so evidently a different person from Sora, but his merging was presented as a good thing

Hard disagree there. His merging was presented as a necessary thing, but I do think it was presented as his death.

pegusus123456 posted...

Hard disagree there. His merging was presented as a necessary thing, but I do think it was presented as his death.

I can give you that it may not have been a good thing, but it was definitely presented a bit too positive in the ending. Maybe I just feel that way cause of the Namine thing I mentioned.

pegusus123456 posted...

Goofy does not romance.

Goofy fucks.

Hambo posted...

Goofy does not fuck.

Goofy hyucks.

Wrong on all counts.

Goofy fyucks.

Cory898 posted...

Wrong on all counts.

Goofy fyucks.

You have to close your account now.

The problem with the game is how big the OCs roster has grown. Now theres a bunch of characters nobody cares about and the director probably has no idea what to do with.

So most of KH3 was spent saving these characters rather then focusing on the actual story he built up over a decade and a dozen titles by then.

pegusus123456 posted...

Close the topic, we aren't surpassing this.

https://youtu.be/n7X3Q-mTluM

GrandConjuraton posted...

A child would never be able to follow what the story turned into, . Most adults even seem to struggle with it.

Heh yeah which proves the point. Have you ever heard a kid try to tell you a story? They get so excited to tell you and yet also say the most nonsensical things throughout the story, and when you think they're about to go on nope they've concluded the story and are doing their own thing again, lost in their little world.

I wanted a simple Disney crossover RPG. Instead I got the moat needlessly complicated nonsense of a story ever.

Yep. Ive been trying to play it for years but just keep uninstalling it. WTF decided disney rides were a good combat mechanic?

CARRRNE_ASADA posted...

Yep. Ive been trying to play it for years but just keep uninstalling it. WTF decided disney rides were a good combat mechanic?

Youre allowed to not use them. I typically dont

I'll be honest, the Disney parts in Kingdom Hearts were never good. You're basically playing through the Disney story with Sora and friends watching awkwardly in the background without hitting all the right notes that made the Disney movies a classic. It would've been soo much better had the Disney characters actually more important to the actual story rather than a side quest, like how KH3 treated it, but I fully admit this was probably a Disney limitation on what they can and do with their characters. Disney characters are mostly there for the marketing, otherwise I would've never touched it as a kid/teenager. So yeah I can't really see this series "grow" with such a limitation like that, the KH3 route was probably the only route they can take. What they can "grow" though is there terribad dialogue and actually give their OC some goddamn character that doesn't resort to "my Friends are my power!" or "light will always beat the darkness!". Roxas and Venitas look alike, but there only interaction with each other was a stare and nothing else. There's some fun to be had there, but they don't do anything with it because in its place was just a boring exposition that Yensid just spews out.

I play KH for two reasons.

The spectacle of crossover, and the cliffhangers. Without the cool factor of Disney and FF characters intermingling or the cliff hanger secret endings, I wouldnt give a shit.