Current Events > In the wake of modern remakes, I think we should update our terminology.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Right now, a remake is when they redo the whole thing including code and models and all that jazz, while a remaster is when all they did was upscale textures and such.

But that's becoming a more and more pointless distinction with how many high profile remakes don't really offer a different experience. Knowing whether they rewrote code is trivia.

We should categorize them instead by how different the experience is. SMRPG and Suikoden would be one type. One is technically a remake while the other is technically a remaster, but they both offer pretty much the same experience as the original. FF7 would be the other category.

the other category is reboot, which the recent FFVII games are

We dont need that because the word remake already has multiple different meanings. If anything we more or less need to loosen the idea that a remake has to follow x things to be considered a remake.

For me its a spectrum

<-portremasterremakereboot->

games can fall in-between or slightly askew from any of the labels, depending on how much was changed or if they add content, and so forth

RetuenOfDevsman posted...

But that's becoming a more and more pointless distinction with how many high profile remakes don't really offer a different experience. Knowing whether they rewrote code is trivia.

This is what a remake is supposed to be.

People only argue different to defend FF7 and Square's odd choices.

WingsOfGood posted...

This is what a remake is supposed to be.

People only argue different to defend FF7 and Square's odd choices.

If you are willing to basically ignore the reality that there is no one definitive point to remakes that state they have to be 1:1 remakes. Thats the problem with FFVIIR that people cant grasp because they are upset it isnt a 1:1 remake.

they should have a special name if they exist only to milk the shit out of the franchise

Baha05 posted...

If you are willing to basically ignore the reality that there is no one definitive point to remakes that state they have to be 1:1 remakes. Thats the problem with FFVIIR that people cant grasp because they are upset it isnt a 1:1 remake.

False. FFVIIR brings up the events of the first game it cannot be considered a remake even on those terms

It's incredibly simple.

A remake means they actually, you know, remade the game, even if they remade it to be largely the same.

A remaster means they took the already existing game and just updated the existing textures/whatever.

FFVIIR is actually neither. It's an entirely different game, all together, and it's even presented that way, story-wise.

Tbh whether they rewrote code is irrelevant to the end user. They dont care how the sausage is made

TTYD is a remaster for all intents and purposes

things like the the Resident Evil games and Metroid Samus Returns should count as remakes

WingsOfGood posted...

False. FFVIIR brings up the events of the first game it cannot be considered a remake even on those terms

And yet regardless of that it still falls under a remake because the term has multiple means and ways of being executed.

Baha05 posted...

And yet regardless of that it still falls under a remake because the term has multiple means and ways of being executed.

False.

StealThisSheen posted...

FFVIIR is actually neither. It's an entirely different game, all together, and it's even presented that way, story-wise.

WingsOfGood posted...

False.

Again not false, learn how words work.

TheGoldenEel posted...

TTYD is a remaster for all intents and purposes

This isn't true since even the gameplay is literally different since it's built on an engine designed for 30 fps, while the original was 60, so the timing is different. You literally cannot play the game the exact same, like you would a remaster.

Baha05 posted...

Again not false, learn how words work.

You'd have a point, normally. However, FFVIIR is, uniquely, not actually a remake, since the story quite literally treats it like a sequel, by acknowledging the original game/timeline exists.

Baha05 posted...

Again not false, learn how words work.

Why do you need something that is literally not a Remake to be called a Remake? Because Square cannot be wrong?

WingsOfGood posted...

Why do you need something that is literally not a Remake to be called a Remake? Because Square cannot be wrong?

Because it is a remake, just because its not the type of remake you all wanted doesnt change that fact or change the fact that words can have multiple meanings based on context.

StealThisSheen posted...

You'd have a point, normally. However, FFVIIR is, uniquely, not actually a remake, since the story quite literally treats it like a sequel, by acknowledging the original game/timeline exists.

Counterpoint its still a remake because for the most part events are still playing out the same way they are and there is nothing stating that a remake cannot do what FFVIIR is doing with the additions to the story.

Baha05 posted...

Because it is a remake

It was explained that it is not and you cannot refute it. Shouting "but it is!" doesn't make it so.

Baha05 posted...

Counterpoint its still a remake because for the most part events are still playing out the same way they are and there is nothing stating that a remake cannot do what FFVIIR is doing with the additions to the story.

It literally cannot be a remake if it acknowledges that the original timeline exists, and thus is a continuation of it.

Square even admitted they were purposely playing with words, which is why the second is called "Rebirth," instead of "Remake Part 2."

StealThisSheen posted...

It literally cannot be a remake if it acknowledges that the original timeline exists, and thus is a continuation of it.

Square even admitted they were purposely playing with words, which is why the second is called "Rebirth," instead of "Remake Part 2."

It can can because again words have a multitude of different means and can be used based on context. If anything you could treat it as both a remake and continuation based on the fact that story wise all the beats are still happening with the new story content as well.

of course people will never accept it because again its not the remake they wanted and will fight tooth and nail against it.

StealThisSheen posted...

This isn't true since even the gameplay is literally different since it's built on an engine designed for 30 fps, while the original was 60, so the timing is different. You literally cannot play the game the exact same, like you would a remaster.

no one cares about this

TheGoldenEel posted...

no one cares about this

No one cares about terms anyhow or even context to things. At some point we are just going to see people get mad at games for the wrong damn reasons.

TheGoldenEel posted...

no one cares about this

Where have you been? We literally had an entire topic of people caring about it on this very board. The gameplay/timing changing because of the change to 30fps has been a very hot topic.

And that's not even getting into the multitude of QoL changes, or the additional bosses.

Baha05 posted...

of course people will never accept it because again its not the remake they wanted and will fight tooth and nail against it.

You are literally arguing that I make a sequel to a movie but I have scenes from the first movie and make the actors act them out again that I have somehow remade the first movie. Lmao

WingsOfGood posted...

You are literally arguing that I make a sequel to a movie but I have scenes from the first movie and make the actors act them out again that I have somehow remade the first movie. Lmao

Based on context yeah because that can very well fall under a remake and a sequel. Because you are essentially doing the same story beats and adding into it while also acknowledging that it coincides with the original works too. This is why words can have many meanings to them and you can craft something into one or the other or even both.

Baha05 posted...

Based on context yeah because that can very well fall under a remake and a sequel.

:'D

StealThisSheen posted...

Where have you been? We literally had an entire topic of people caring about it on this very board. The gameplay/timing changing because of the change to 30fps has been a very hot topic.

And that's not even getting into the multitude of QoL changes, or the additional bosses.

a few people on a dead message board arguing that the timing being a fraction of a second different is a major change is roughly equivalent to no one

WingsOfGood posted...

:'D

Laugh all you want it more goes to show how limited a lot of people want to use terms and what not and thats a big problem in a lot of circles.

TheGoldenEel posted...

a few people on a dead message board arguing that the timing being a fraction of a second different is a major change is roughly equivalent to no one

So, in other words, you have no actual argument. Got it.

The game has numerous additions, which a remaster would not.

StealThisSheen posted...

So, in other words, you have no actual argument. Got it.

The game has numerous additions, which a remaster would not.

nintendo called Xenoblade Chronicles Definitive Edition a remaster and it added significantly more than TTYD

Baha05 posted...

Based on context yeah because that can very well fall under a remake and a sequel. Because you are essentially doing the same story beats and adding into it while also acknowledging that it coincides with the original works too. This is why words can have many meanings to them and you can craft something into one or the other or even both.

Bill & Ted's Bogus Journey includes the scene where they first meet Rufus from the first movie, but instead Bill & Ted meet... Bill & Ted.

By your logic, that would make Bogus Journey a remake.

Baha05 posted...

Laugh all you want it more goes to show how limited a lot of people want to use terms and what not and thats a big problem in a lot of circles.

Limited? A term means what it means. You broke the meaning, you don't get to use the term.
The only reason this is even an argument is because fans bend over backwards to defend Square and distort reality for their misuse.

TheGoldenEel posted...

nintendo called Xenoblade Chronicles Definitive Edition a remaster and it added significantly more than TTYD

Because they didn't actually remake anything, they ONLY added something that is completely separate from the main game, to begin with. You can literally play Xenoblade Chronicles DE without ever even touching the stuff they added.

TTYD was literally remade from the ground up AND they added to it. And what they added is incorporated into the actual main game. New game mechanics. New dialogue. New animations. Etc. and so on.

StealThisSheen posted...

Bill & Ted's Bogus Journey includes the scene where they first meet Rufus from the first movie, but instead Bill & Ted meet... Bill & Ted.

By your logic, that would make Bogus Journey a remake.

Not of those scenes are just references and not the whole movie is one big reference by remaking the first one.

WingsOfGood posted...

Limited? A term means what it means. You broke the meaning, you don't get to use the term.
The only reason this is even an argument is because fans bend over backwards to defend Square and distort reality for their misuse.

If more argue people restrict the meanings of words in order to justify shitting on Sqaure Enix the same way people shit on Nomura by blaming him despite him not being the games writer.

Because facts are facts here it can fall under both because the execution of the Trilogy is remaking the events of the original games with new story content that can be seen as a continuation.

And saying "it just isn't the remake you wanted!" is the stupidest argument.

Fans don't get what they want all the time and they don't go "this is not a remake"

Brilliant Diamond is a remake. No one argues it is not. Yet it is NOT what people wanted for many different reasons.

Even the people saying FFVIIR is not a remake actually like it fyi. You just don't seem to comprehend how wrong Square is here. They even know and they did it on purpose fyi.

WingsOfGood posted...

And saying "it just isn't the remake you wanted!" is the stupidest argument.

Fans don't get what they want all the time and they don't go "this is not a remake"

Brilliant Diamond is a remake. No one argues it is not. Yet it is NOT what people wanted for many different reasons.

Yet the fact is that people are trying to side step the notion of a remake because they felt lied to for the first game despite anyone who was going to buy it already knew it was going to be a part 1 due to information being presented. And hell gamers have a hard time with accepting Pokmon Legends Arceus as a mainline game despite what was created by Gamefreak. Most people have it in their heads that they know more about a game then the damn people who created it.

The only reason this is much of a discussion to begin with is because square shat the bed and called FF7R a remake when it's actually more of a retelling or reboot

Before that it was pretty clear that shit like REmake and Link's Awakening are remakes, while Shadow of the Colossus ps4 and MGS HD collection were remasters. It's not a hard concept

Gwynevere posted...

The only reason this is much of a discussion to begin with is because square shat the bed and called FF7R a remake when it's actually more of a retelling or reboot

Before that it was pretty clear that shit like REmake and Link's Awakening are remakes, while Shadow of the Colossus ps4 and MGS HD collection were remasters. It's not a hard concept

Because people want to be right in their criticisms by side stepping the meaning of words.

Baha05 posted...

Because people want to be right in their criticisms by side stepping the meaning of words.

You are the one doing that fyi

I'm not even criticizing FF7R. I fucking love FF7R. It's just, objectively, not a remake, and Square even acknowledged that by calling Part 2 something different, instead of "Remake Part 2."

StealThisSheen posted...

Because they didn't actually remake anything, they ONLY added something that is completely separate from the main game, to begin with. You can literally play Xenoblade Chronicles DE without ever even touching the stuff they added.

TTYD was literally remade from the ground up AND they added to it.

there are a ton of UX, QOL and visual changes to Xenoblade DE

what does "remade from the ground up" even mean, if the end result is a game that is identical in level design, character design, level geometry, etc? Have you ever participated in a code re-write of some software? It does not matter whether the game was completely rewritten if the end result is functionally identical to a moderately enhanced port

Baha05 posted...

Yet the fact is that people are trying to side step the notion of a remake because they felt lied to for the first game despite anyone who was going to buy it already knew it was going to be a part 1 due to information being presented. And hell gamers have a hard time with accepting Pokmon Legends Arceus as a mainline game despite what was created by Gamefreak. Most people have it in their heads that they know more about a game then the damn people who created it.

This is false.
The word has meaning. You pretend it does not and you can just make it mean what you want.

This has nothing to do with whether someone likes or dislikes FF7r.
This has nothing to do with whether someone felt lied to by Square or not.

Facts are facts.

Gwynevere posted...

The only reason this is much of a discussion to begin with is because square shat the bed and called FF7R a remake when it's actually more of a retelling or reboot

Before that it was pretty clear that shit like REmake and Link's Awakening are remakes, while Shadow of the Colossus ps3 and MGS HD collection were remasters. It's not a hard concept

Exactly.

We all know what a remake is. This is not difficult. Square purposely slapped it there and it turned out to be wrong.
So fans had to distort reality because that is what the hardcorest fanboys do.

StealThisSheen posted...

I'm not even criticizing FF7R. I fucking love FF7R. It's just, objectively, not a remake, and Square even acknowledged that by calling Part 2 something different, instead of "Remake Part 2."

Exactly.

TheGoldenEel posted...

what does "remade from the ground up" even mean, if the end result is a game that is identical in level design, character design, level geometry, etc? Have you ever participated in a code re-write of some software? It does not matter whether the game was completely rewritten if the end result is functionally identical to a moderately enhanced port

I'm literally an app developer, and if we rewrite an entire app from scratch, you better believe we're charging you for an entirely new app, because that's literally what it is, even if it ends up functioning the same because... We literally had to remake the entire app. We had to rewrite the code, we had to include new assets, we had to QA everything all over again.

This argument did not help you at all.

A remaster, in app terms, would be if we just updated the code that already existed to be compliant with the latest iOS and Android, for example.

StealThisSheen posted...

I'm not even criticizing FF7R. I fucking love FF7R. It's just, objectively, not a remake, and Square even acknowledged that by calling Part 2 something different, instead of "Remake Part 2."

Thats because calling it Remake Part 2 would have been a stupid thing to do especially with the dual meaning of the word Remake.

WingsOfGood posted...

This is false.
The word has meaning. You pretend it does not and you can just make it mean what you want.

This has nothing to do with whether someone likes or dislikes FF7r.
This has nothing to do with whether someone felt lied to by Square or not.

Facts are facts.

And facts are words have more then one meaning and you can, and this will be a big shock to most people:

Use more then one word to describe things or even build on things!

Which is kind of what gets ignored with these sorts of things and why the term remake shouldnt be this super limited thing that applies to some games and not others. Gamers really more or less made a mess of things when they cant even agree on things based on definitions.

Baha05 posted...

this will be a big shock to most people:

Who are all these people that are being shocked? Are you the lone arbiter of this sacred knowledge?
Maybe think about that for a moment.

No one is shocked by what I said because it is known and true. If what you say is shocking maybe that is because you made it the fuck up.

StealThisSheen posted...

I'm literally an app developer, and if we rewrite an entire app from scratch, you better believe we're charging you for an entirely new app, because that's literally what it is, even if it ends up functioning the same because... We literally had to remake the entire app.

This argument did not help you at all.

that's fucking nonsense dude, if you put out a major version overhaul of an app you're not charging your current user for a new app again

also if you're overhauling an app you're doing ux design, implementing new features, etc; not literally making it as close as possible to the original version so the ux and feature design steps aren't needed at all

WingsOfGood posted...

Who are all these people that are being shocked? Are you the lone arbiter of this sacred knowledge?
Maybe think about that for a moment.

No one is shocked by what I said because it is known and true. If what you say is shocking maybe that is because you made it the fuck up.

I mean if you want to ignore how things work go for it. I think most people have used more then one word to describe things and thats what can be seen with video games and remakes/remasters