Current Events > Israel/Palestina War XIV - The Big Attack on Rafah?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Sandalorn posted...

Seriously.

"To me you have to kill 100,000 to be genocide so just 30,000 is no big deal!!!"

"seriously" as he completely ignores my response... for some reason

Samurontai posted...

let's talk about me being arbitrary when it comes to the death toll of a populace that is actively being used as human shields

Oh shit. Ok Full mask off. We have a true hard-right believer here. It's Eagles on steroids. .

Samurontai posted...

"Is genocide because... err... because..." isn't valid evidence towards something being genocide

So what according to you, would make this be a genocide?

Samurontai posted...

If it were a genocide, the death toll would be far higher. Why do people use that term so loosely, it never makes sense to me.

Do you use the same logic for the Uyghur genocide?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention

Article 2 of the Convention defines genocide as:

... any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Sandalorn posted...

Oh shit. Ok Full mask off. We have a true hard-right believer here. It's Eagles on steroids.

The most hard-right Pro-Ukrainian, Bernie supporter you'll ever meet, because that makes sense? lmao, you could always just reply to my point rather than attack me, you know?

Cheater87 posted...

So what according to you, would make this be a genocide?

You're the one making the accusation, so why do you believe this is a genocide?

Samurontai posted...

lmao, you could always just reply to my point rather than attack me, you know?

What point? You actually freak me out tbh. You always wonder how humans can justify women and children getting killed via bombings of Hospitals and Refugee camps with the human shield angle but then seeing it always brings a chill to your heart.

Samurontai posted...

I mean we can also just ignore every international court refusing to call it a genocide

https://www.npr.org/2024/01/26/1227078791/icj-israel-genocide-gaza-palestinians-south-africa

The International Court of Justice has found it is "plausible" that Israel has committed acts that violate the Genocide Convention. In a provisional order delivered by the court's president, Joan Donoghue, the court said Israel must ensure "with immediate effect" that its forces not commit any of the acts prohibited by the convention.

Donoghue said the court cannot make a final determination right now on whether Israel is guilty of genocide. But she said that given the deteriorating situation in Gaza, the court has jurisdiction to order measures to protect Gaza's population from further risk of genocide.

Donoghue outlined the provisional measures and how each judge voted. The court voted 15-2 on the order that Israel must take all measures in its power to stop anything in relation to genocide in Gaza. By 16 votes to 1, the court voted that Israel needs to take all measures within its powers to prevent and punish those involved with inciting genocide against Palestinians in the Gaza Strip.

This is the part where you repeat yourself, telling us we can't officially call it a genocide until the situation deteriorates from "plausible" genocide to actual genocide, as if the distinction really matters to anyone but pedants.

ButteryMales posted...

Do you use the same logic for the Uyghur genocide?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention

Article 2 of the Convention defines genocide as:

... any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

A, and B would make literally every war in existence a genocide, there are stipulations to those two. The other three just aren't happening. Thanks for proving my point?

"The current birth rate for Palestine in 2024 is 26.747 births per 1000 people, a 1.61% decline from 2023. The birth rate for Palestine in 2023 was 27.185 births per 1000 people, a 1.62% decline from 2022. The birth rate for Palestine in 2022 was 27.633 births per 1000 people, a 1.6% decline from 2021."

Source: Macrotrends (the link is too long)

Still having children at a decent rate, given it's an active warzone.

Children are not being forcibly transferred like Russia is doing in Ukraine.

And if c. were true, the death toll would be far higher, and there just wouldn't be any humanitarian aid, or safe routes, or anything of the such at all.

So... wrong again?

Samurontai posted...

The most hard-right Pro-Ukrainian, Bernie supporter you'll ever meet, because that makes sense? lmao, you could always just reply to my point rather than attack me, you know?

You're the one making the accusation, so why do you believe this is a genocide?

They are killing men women and children, they are telling people to to certain spots to be safe, then they bomb them there, their military sings about killing them all and leaving none alive. Babies are killed in incubators and pregnant women are run over by bulldozers.

Cheater87 posted...

Samurontai posted...

The most hard-right Pro-Ukrainian, Bernie supporter you'll ever meet, because that makes sense? lmao, you could always just reply to my point rather than attack me, you know?

You're the one making the accusation, so why do you believe this is a genocide?

They are killing men women and children, they are telling people to to certain spots to be safe, then they bomb them there, their military sings about killing them all and leaving none alive. Babies are killed in incubators and pregnant women are run over by bulldozers.

He's already used the Hard-Right "human shield" excuse so there you go. You know...just like Bernie would do!!

On one hand, there's literally dozens of Holocaust Scholars, Genocide Scholars, and historians that have studied the region that almost unanimously conclude that this is a genocide, and currently an ongoing case in the ICJ attempting to prove its a genocide (one that you could of course read their argument as to how it applies for yourself, but of course you would never do that)

On the other hand, there's basically just Israel, saying: no cause human shields and terror babies and terror tunnels and "We have to defeat Hamas"

darkace77450 posted...

https://www.npr.org/2024/01/26/1227078791/icj-israel-genocide-gaza-palestinians-south-africa

This is the part where you repeat yourself, telling us we can't officially call it a genocide until the situation deteriorates from "plausible" genocide to actual genocide, as if the distinction really matters to anyone but pedants.

It does matter, plausible does not mean true. It means it *could* be true, which tends to be the case of just about everything when it comes to an active conflict. Also if it has to "deteriorate" to an actual genocide then aren't you just basically claiming that it isn't actually a genocide at this point.

NoMeLx22x posted...

On one hand, there's literally dozens of Holocaust Scholars, Genocide Scholars, and historians that have studied the region that almost unanimously conclude that this is a genocide, and currently an ongoing case in the ICJ attempting to prove its a genocide (one that you could of course read their argument as to how it applies for yourself, but of course you would never do that)

On the other hand, there's basically just Israel, saying: no cause human shields and terror babies and terror tunnels and "We have to defeat Hamas"

It is far from unanimous. Why are you being dishonest.

Also it isn't just Israel. Again, stop being dishonest.

Samurontai posted...

A, and B would make literally every war in existence a genocide, there are stipulations to those two. The other three just aren't happening. Thanks for proving my point?

"The current birth rate for Palestine in 2024 is 26.747 births per 1000 people, a 1.61% decline from 2023. The birth rate for Palestine in 2023 was 27.185 births per 1000 people, a 1.62% decline from 2022. The birth rate for Palestine in 2022 was 27.633 births per 1000 people, a 1.6% decline from 2021."

Source: Macrotrends (the link is too long)

Still having children at a decent rate, given it's an active warzone.

Children are not being forcibly transferred like Russia is doing in Ukraine.

And if c. were true, the death toll would be far higher, and there just wouldn't be any humanitarian aid, or safe routes, or anything of the such at all.

So... wrong again?

You didn't answer the question about the Uyghur genocide.

Israel has been stopping food, medical supplies, and has been attacking hospitals. The only one that hasn't been happening is (e).

Cheater87 posted...

Samurontai posted...

The most hard-right Pro-Ukrainian, Bernie supporter you'll ever meet, because that makes sense? lmao, you could always just reply to my point rather than attack me, you know?

You're the one making the accusation, so why do you believe this is a genocide?

They are killing men women and children, they are telling people to to certain spots to be safe, then they bomb them there, their military sings about killing them all and leaving none alive. Babies are killed in incubators and pregnant women are run over by bulldozers.

You mean the same safe zones that Hamas ends up launching rockets out of? Also that entire response is just... not true? Is there any proof of literally any of that? Babies killed in incubators, pregnant women run over by bulldozers? I google this and the only source I get is Al Jazeera, and the Free Press Kashmir, two incredibly biased sources lol. I might as well go to Fox News for my Ukraine news by those standards

Sandalorn posted...

He's already used the Hard-Right "human shield" excuse so there you go.

Wait people actually deny that Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields?

Samurontai posted...

Wait people actually deny that Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields?

Nope...just you discounting and justifying the killing of women and children by it. You know...like Bernie would!!

someone who supported bernie jerking off israel is maybe the most pathetic thing imaginable. the exact kind of person that is totally clueless about the things they say that they support and is just going with whatever is trendy on the internet atm

ButteryMales posted...

You didn't answer the question about the Uyghur genocide.

Israel has been stopping food, medical supplies, and has been attacking hospitals. The only one that hasn't been happening is (e).

The only information I can get about Israel "attacking hospitals" is when they're literally being shot out of and used as a base of operations, at which point they are legitimate targets. Also Israel has been allowing aid, food, and medical supplies, so, wrong? It's been coming through Jordan, for a while now actually.

It's like watching Bibi himself talk about this war...oops...I mean this genocide.

Sandalorn posted...

Nope...just you discounting and justifying the killing of women and children by it.

I'm not justifying the killing of women and children, I'm just saying maybe Hamas leadership shouldn't order their soldiers to hide behind civilians when attacking, while staying safe and sound over in Qatar. Kinda weird to ignore that point. When a country doesn't use it's civilians as shields, the death toll tends to be a lot lower overall (I,E Ukraine.)

MarcyWarcy posted...

someone who supported bernie jerking off israel is maybe the most pathetic thing imaginable. the exact kind of person that is totally clueless about the things they say that they support and is just going with whatever is trendy on the internet atm

I don't support Bernie anymore, also I never supported any candidate for their opinions or takes on Israel. Also talking about "going with whatever is trendy" while defending Hamas is kind of cringe, but hey, what do I know.

Samurontai posted...

It does matter, plausible does not mean true. It means it *could* be true, which tends to be the case of just about everything when it comes to an active conflict.

They say plausible because they are still investigating not because they think it isnt.

Samurontai posted...

I'm not justifying the killing of women and children,

The fuck you aren't.

bfslick50 posted...

They say plausible because they are still investigating not because they think it isnt.

That's how.. investigations work? It's not because they think it is either, it's because the accusation was made... so an investigation has to happen. Do you not know how courts work, or...?

Sandalorn posted...

The fuck you aren't.

Tell me where I justified the killing of women and children. Please.

Samurontai posted...

I'm not justifying the killing of women and children, I'm just saying

Yeah, that's not a great way to continue that sentence.

Samurontai posted...

If it were a genocide, the death toll would be far higher. Why do people use that term so loosely, it never makes sense to me.

Listen up, genocide-denier.

The current definition of Genocide is set out in Article II of the Genocide
Convention:

Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in
whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated
to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Why don't you check the boxes Israel has accomplished? I count 4 / 5.

Also, 30,000 people in less than 6 months is a pretty good start to genocide, too.

Samurontai posted...

A, and B would make literally every war in existence a genocide, there are stipulations to those two. The other three just aren't happening. Thanks for proving my point?

"The current birth rate for Palestine in 2024 is 26.747 births per 1000 people, a 1.61% decline from 2023. The birth rate for Palestine in 2023 was 27.185 births per 1000 people, a 1.62% decline from 2022. The birth rate for Palestine in 2022 was 27.633 births per 1000 people, a 1.6% decline from 2021."

Source: Macrotrends (the link is too long)

Still having children at a decent rate, given it's an active warzone.

Children are not being forcibly transferred like Russia is doing in Ukraine.

And if c. were true, the death toll would be far higher, and there just wouldn't be any humanitarian aid, or safe routes, or anything of the such at all.

So... wrong again?

Oh, you're just outright denying genocide can exist at all at this point, and not just the Palestinian genocide.

DrizztLink posted...

Yeah, that's not a great way to continue that sentence.

Yeah of course it isn't, if you end it there, what? lmao

Obviously if a country is using it's population as shields, there are going to be a lot more casualties, that's just logical. Does that mean it is okay? No. But condemning only Israel and refusing to condemn Hamas is just odd, imo.

DnDer posted...

Oh, you're just outright denying genocide can exist at all at this point, and not just the Palestinian genocide.

By... posting proof that Israel isn't committing genocide according to these rules? I mean, I guess if you want to put it that way, then sure lol.

Samurontai posted...

Yeah of course it isn't, if you end it there, what? lmao

Obviously if a country is using it's population as shields, there are going to be a lot more casualties, that's just logical. Does that mean it is okay? No. But condemning only Israel and refusing to condemn Hamas is just odd, imo.

No it isn't logical because Israel shouldn't be bombing places that they know have human shields.

Also, using the birth rate argument is another example of a logical fallacy. Poor and socially underdeveloped countries tend to reproduce at a high rate, especially in the Middle East, due to religious and cultural differences as well. And it's also well documented that when a marginalized group is feeling threatened that the birth rates often increase due to the fear of extinction.

Combine that with the fact that Gaza is the most densely populated area in the world and it's slowly been suffocated over the past decades til today, and it's going to lead to a high birth rate. It's gross to try to use this as a justification for how it's not genocide.

IceCreamOnStero posted...

No it isn't logical because Israel shouldn't be bombing places that they know have human shields.

Israel takes more precautions than just about any other country ever has when it comes to them bombing or doing air strikes, that's just facts. They warn before hand, several times, when it comes to bombing any residential area.

NoMeLx22x posted...

Also, using the birth rate argument is another example of a logical fallacy. Poor and socially underdeveloped countries tend to reproduce at a high rate, especially in the Middle East, due to religious and cultural differences as well. And it's also well documented that when a marginalized group is feeling threatened that the birth rates often increase due to the fear of extinction.

Combine that with the fact that Gaza is the most densely populated area in the world and it's slowly been suffocated over the past decades til today, and it's going to lead to a high birth rate. It's gross to try to use this as a justification for how it's not genocide.

Its also simply irrelevant. Attempting a genocide and not suceeding is still a bad thing. Its about Israel's actions, not just looking at a graph.

Samurontai posted...

Israel takes more precautions than just about any other country ever has when it comes to them bombing or doing air strikes, that's just facts. They warn before hand, several times, when it comes to bombing any residential area.

And yet they keep killing civillians.

NoMeLx22x posted...

Also, using the birth rate argument is another example of a logical fallacy. Poor and socially underdeveloped countries tend to reproduce at a high rate, especially in the Middle East, due to religious and cultural differences as well. And it's also well documented that when a marginalized group is feeling threatened that the birth rates often increase due to the fear of extinction.

Combine that with the fact that Gaza is the most densely populated area in the world and it's slowly been suffocated over the past decades til today, and it's going to lead to a high birth rate. It's gross to try to use this as a justification for how it's not genocide.

Except prior to Oct 7th, Gaza had one of the highest obesity rates on the planet. Also Gaza is not even close to the most densely populated area in the world. It's "One of the" sure, but that still puts it like... above the number 50 spot? By some accounts, by a big margin as well.

Samurontai posted...

By... posting proof that Israel isn't committing genocide according to these rules? I mean, I guess if you want to put it that way, then sure lol.

You haven't posted any proof that hospitals were not attacked. People here have heard the news.
name_unknown posted...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/5/5cf6d303.jpg
A view of destroyed houses and buildings at the area around Al-Shifa Hospital on April 1. Dawoud Abu Alkas/Reuters

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/f/ff51fe2a.jpg
Palestinians inspect the damage at Al-Shifa hospital after Israeli military withdrew from the complex. AFP/Getty Images

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/d/d3409401.jpg
Palestinians gather around the destroyed Al-Shifa hospital. Dawoud Abo Alkas/Anadolu/Getty Images

What's your proof of aid? The World Central Kitchen convoy being bombed by Israel?

Samurontai posted...

Israel takes more precautions than just about any other country ever has when it comes to them bombing or doing air strikes, that's just facts.

Citation needed.

Samurontai posted...

They warn before hand, several times, when it comes to bombing any residential area.

I guess the WCK workers ignored those several warnings. Shame, that.

IceCreamOnStero posted...

And yet they keep killing civillians.

I know right? It's almost like an extremist group is using them as human shields and preventing them from leaving or something. Crazy thought that a terrorist group would do terrorist things.

Samurontai posted...

Also Israel has been allowing aid, food, and medical supplies, so, wrong? It's been coming through Jordan, for a while now actually.

And here he is implying that Palestinians aren't starving to death because Israel is allowing enough food in. I need to log off and chill. Reading this level of evil is seriously hard sometimes.

The use of human shields argument is another one that doesn't make a lot of sense.

Like, if someone was to take your mother as a "human shield" should you just blast away straight through your mother in order to get the bad guy?

Of course not, it's going to lead to an incredible amount of death and destruction, which is exactly what is going on.

That's of course if we were defining human shields in that conventional way.

However, Israel has done this thing where they have made "Human Shield" just mean "Hamas existed somewhere in the vicinity, we promise, sorry for all the dead bodies."

ButteryMales posted...

You haven't posted any proof that hospitals were not attacked. People here have heard the news.

What's your proof of aid? The World Central Kitchen convoy being bombed by Israel?

Is that the same Al Shifa hospital that Hamas occupied like... several times, even after Israel left and moved South? Oh... it is. Also the TWCK attack was atrocious and is something that actually should be investigated and talked about.

darkace77450 posted...

Citation needed.

I guess the WCK workers ignored those several warnings. Shame, that.

You're citing one case, that wasn't an air strike on a residential area... in response to me telling you they warn before they strike residential areas... are you okay?

NoMeLx22x posted...

The use of human shields argument is another one that doesn't make a lot of sense.

Like, if someone was to take your mother as a "human shield" should you just blast away straight through your mother in order to get the bad guy?

Of course not, it's going to lead to an incredible amount of death and destruction, which is exactly what is going on.

That's of course if we were defining human shields in that conventional way.

However, Israel has done this thing where they have made "Human Shield" just mean "Hamas existed somewhere in the vicinity, we promise, sorry for all the dead bodies."

Using an example that personal is disingenuous as fuck, just saying. Also the circumstances are completely different. I don't think I've ever seen a worse analogy before in my life. You are comparing a scenario in which I actively know that someone is holding my mom hostage, to an active war zone in which Hamas prevents civilians from leaving after Israel warns them to.

Samurontai posted...

That's how.. investigations work? It's not because they think it is either, it's because the accusation was made... so an investigation has to happen. Do you not know how courts work, or...?

It should be obvious and yet here we are spelling it out for you. You said the "death toll would be higher if it was a genocide" implying you've concluded it's definitively not a genocide and that "international courts refuse to call it a genocide" implying the courts agreed with your decision when in fact very much have not reached that conclusion or any conclusion.

Samurontai posted...

I know right? It's almost like an extremist group is using them as human shields and preventing them from leaving or something. Crazy thought that a terrorist group would do terrorist things.

Why is Israel striking targets they know have human shields placed at them?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBlyA8L0bbs

Still having children at a decent rate, given it's an active warzone.

"They're still having babies and not dying out at a fast enough rate. Totally not genocide."

And if c. were true, the death toll would be far higher, and there just wouldn't be any humanitarian aid, or safe routes, or anything of the such at all.

There are no safe routes because every time Israel says there are safe routes, they magically get bombed. For reasons. All the way up to the refugee camps. That get bombed. For reasons.

JFC.

I cannot wait til you catch a ban for this.

Samurontai posted...

Using an example that personal is disingenuous as fuck, just saying. Also the circumstances are completely different. I don't think I've ever seen a worse analogy before in my life. You are comparing a scenario in which I actively know that someone is holding my mom hostage, to an active war zone in which Hamas prevents civilians from leaving after Israel warns them to.

You're so close to getting it.

Yeah, Israel don't see it as comparable to that situation, because they don't care about civillian casualties, because they don't see Palestinians as people.

bfslick50 posted...

It should be obvious and yet here we are spelling it out for you. You said the "death toll would be higher if it was a genocide" implying you've concluded it's definitively not a genocide and that "international courts refuse to call it a genocide" implying the courts agreed with your decision when in fact very much have not reached that conclusion or any conclusion.

Yes, and then someone posted reasons why it was a genocide, and I told them why they were wrong, did you miss the past like, 30-40 posts?

Also I never concluded it wasn't a genocide, I simply said that no courts have called it a genocide as of yet.

IceCreamOnStero posted...

Why is Israel striking targets they know have human shields placed at them?

Because Hamas is shooting rockets/munitions from those places? Kind of obvious that those become legitimate targets, also why the assumption that Israel would expect there to still be civilians there after the warnings to leave?

Samurontai posted...

Kind of obvious that those become legitimate targets,

Civillian targets are not legitamate targets.

also why the assumption that Israel would expect there to still be civilians there after the warnings to leave?

Probably because of all the other times where they gave their "warnings" (those warnings are complete bullshit), they somehow, magically happened to still kill civillians.

Are you suggesting that Israel see that their strikes kill civillians and then put zero consideration into avoiding that for future strikes?

DnDer posted...

"They're still having babies and not dying out at a fast enough rate. Totally not genocide."

There are no safe routes because every time Israel says there are safe routes, they magically get bombed. For reasons. All the way up to the refugee camps. That get bombed. For reasons.

JFC.

I cannot wait til you catch a ban for this.

Most of the reasons tend to be because Hamas militants made them legitimate targets by using them to stage attacks, lol.

IceCreamOnStero posted...

You're so close to getting it.

Yeah, Israel don't see it as comparable to that situation, because they don't care about civillian casualties, because they don't see Palestinians as people.

Or because one is an active warzone with a lot more factors at play, and the other is a very specific scenario that you thought applied for... idk why you would think it would apply here honestly lol, did you mean to put it in another topic?

Samurontai posted...

Yes, and then someone posted reasons why it was a genocide, and I told them why they were wrong, did you miss the past like, 30-40 posts?

Also I never concluded it wasn't a genocide, I simply said that no courts have called it a genocide as of yet.

The courts didn't say those events don't count as genocide. The courts said nothing because they work on the timeframe of years. The courts haven't called it a genocide because courts are slow. Pretending the courts agree with you is disingenuous. Anyone who understands how the international courts work should not expect them to have a decision as of yet regardless of what's happening.