Board 8 > Playing Tyrion Cuthbert, the best non-ace attorney ace attorney game

(+) Yeah! (+)

It's the longest case but it's not a marathon.

Starting Episode 5.

Laefe: You can't say that!
Beatrice: What's the church going to do? Arrest me?

This game has some really funny moments.

Oh shit

CONTRACT NULLIFIED

That ruled

Game beated. I read over the second page and overall agree with people's takes. The actual mysteries have varying quality, and the game's pacing is uneven. I'm glad someone else pointed out that they struggled with which evidence to present at random points because I was feeling real dumb at times.

I also kept identifying moments that really should have been given more room to breathe. As an example: the Celeste/Eris stuff in Case 5 was given adequate screentime and it's the best part of the game. The Aster thing at the end wasn't, and unsurprisingly it feels less good than it should be.

With that said, the game shines with its story and characters, and for a low-budget game it has great presentation with strong art and music. I greatly enjoyed it from start to finish and I would buy a sequel in a heartbeat.

Case 4 >= 5. I actually think Case 4 is better than like, almost all AA cases except the biggest ones. Case 5 could've been an all-timer but it's too inconsistent.

I still enjoy case 5 slightly more than 4 I think. A lot of it is really messy and not fleshed out, but the Eris stuff was so god damn good that I can overlook the messy parts.

In retrospect, I suppose that goes along with how I feel about AA cases, too. I can overlook some low lows as long as it has really high highs. I like TC's case 5 better than case 4 for the same reason I like 1-5 better than 1-4.

A more fleshed out Case 5 would be the dream yeah. Aster's dialogue at the end was actually very well-written, it just needs better context, more buildup, and for the scene to not just kinda end three lines after he dies.

Yeah, if there were more immediate repercussions on Lucio for what he did, then I think it would've landed better. Just one little change would've made a huge difference imo

So based on a post from the creator on the AA subreddit:

1. The game only got 2/3 of its funding during the kickstarting phase.
2. Because of this, they had to cut out an entire case where Aster was the solo final villain and merge it into Case 5.
3. The creator also got feedback during the alpha phase to speed up the pace of things. This lead to them, and I quote: 'I may have fallen into a bad habit of moving the plot from point A to point B as efficiently as possible to keep the players engaged.'

Basically most of my issues with the game apparently came down to a lack of budget and poor feedback. Damn.

Yeah, you have to be really careful with feedback. People (especially in 2024, but it's always been this way) have a tendency to want everything to go quick, to "respect my time", etc. I can think of so, so many pieces of media (usually very famous ones!) that are constantly accused of being "too slow". I'm sure you're well aware of this yourself as a writer. But (as a non-writer) I think there's a reason lots of these things are "too slow". Proper buildup is really important for a story, and while you can sometimes go too far and end up with plodding cases like AAI2, there's probably a reason that happens so much more often than the alternative. Better to err on too slow because at least the payoff for the buildup is really earned.

A lot of people are just looking for media to give them their next "hit" of dopamine with an exciting twist, cliffhanger, plot development, etc, they don't necessarily realize how important the buildup is for those moments. The customer is not always right, in this case. And if you're a new writer, I can understand why you give in to the instinct to just try to please people, because it must feel horrible if your already small number of playtesters drops and someone says "eh i got bored it was too slow" and stops playing. Whereas the feedback from people who feel it went unsatisfying quickly might not have as much of an immediate sting.

What's extra unfortunate about this to me is that the part with Aster at the end is the only part that feels rushed! The pacing of the game is perfectly fine up to that point - but the ending with Aster is just SO abrupt.

To be fair, most of the court segments feel like they last, like, half an hour. They were really quick to get to the point, though maybe part of that is there wasn't much meat to get to anyway.

Dels posted...

They were really quick to get to the point, though maybe part of that is there wasn't much meat to get to anyway.

I think you could quicken most AA cases to the exact same pace if you cut out a lot of extraneous dialogue and reaction shots, honestly. Especially modern AA which has SO much fluff, for better or worse.

Dels posted...

I'm sure you're well aware of this yourself as a writer.

Not to derail the topic (although it's basically run its course unless a surprise new player comes in), but I could discuss at length about how what you outlined affects new writers. The moment I read how the Tyrion author took early feedback it brought back a lot of memories, lol.

I really hope there's a sequel. Assuming that Tyrion remains as the main character, it would be interesting to explore how being in a position of major influence/power changes the dynamics of cases. Or maybe they pull an AA6 and he goes to that new country in the ending stinger, where he'd be a lot less respected. Lots of potential for neat ideas.

My only idea for the sequel is that Tyrion should defend a Demon at some point. Either as the hook in the very first case, or I guess maybe in the final case. That's assuming we go in further on the angel/demon world stuff, which we may not, I think the post-credits hook seemed like more political stuff in some other country so idk (don't think the spoiler bars are needed at this point but just in case)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x1TkGKwSwg

Might be as good as Last Stand. The Eris 'fight' was the closest a VN has ever come to an interactive Umineko-style segment.

Just finished Case 1. Not reading anything in the topic until I finish the game and just posting thoughts.

It's promising! I like that the tutorial already puts the idea that you can point out a mistake through evidence, through emotions, or through surface-level thoughts, even if you don't actually do that beyond the tutorial. The characters are good and I actually like the art/animations for what it is. The story is good, too. While there are naturally corrupt societies and institutions, Ace Attorney doesn't really dwell on it as this game already shows it does. There's divisions between allies and very few seem satisfied with the status quo, but for different reasons.

I definitely appreciate the tabletop-isms of each spell having a lot of small differences and the way that it's measured out on a grid. I'm not sure if this game started as an Ace Attorney game that grew more into tabletop or started as a tabletop that grew more into Ace Attorney. In any case, I'm all for it, as someone who really enjoys both of these topics.

Psychological profiles and empowered eye are both nice. I definitely had issues with empowered eye, but I do really like that there's a ton of optional dialogue here like Pierce musing that he has an affinity for water magic.

I bought this game and finished it a few days ago to satisfy my need for a new Ace Attorney and I have some thoughts.

Pros: Love, love, LOVE the Argument system and hope it stays if a sequel is made. When Last Stand kicks in during Court and an Argument start, it's like doing Pursuit in manual mode so to speak. Instead of Phoenix/Apollo/Naruhodo on autopilot with maybe one easy present, this game has you presenting evidence rapidly to shut down any possible argument the killer makes and really invokes that "You are not getting away from me" feeling from the player. The actual cases are pretty good all around, with maybe the tutorial case being the worst of the five.

Cons: Case 5 wasn't able to finish as planned and thus had to resort to a Monty Python and the Holy Grail-esque ending (Budget ran out so just end things abruptly). The Court Record actually ended up being my #1 complaint overall as nearly all the cases had some bloat to the Court Record and completely useless pieces of evidence. Only the first case had crime scene photos and detailed layouts of rooms whereas the rest was mostly just portraits with the word "Testimony" or "Compendium" written on the bottom right corner. You did get maps of the building the crime took place in for cases 2 to 5 but not the kind you got in case 1.

Compared to other Ace Attorneys: Solidly mid tier. Doesn't hit the highs that Ace Attorney hits but doesn't hit the lows that Ace Attorney hits either. AAI2 > 3 > 6 > 1 > TC > 2 > 5 > AAI1 > 4 feels right.

Really happy to see people are picking this one up! It's really worth peoples' time

LazyKenny posted...

Cons: The Court Record actually ended up being my #1 complaint overall as nearly all the cases had some bloat to the Court Record and completely useless pieces of evidence.

Agreed. Case 5 was especially egregious about this. I'm lucky that I was familiar with all the magic due to it being based largely off of D&D, so that at least didn't feel overwhelming. I can imagine someone getting slammed with several dozen spells and being overwhelmed.

After some reflection, TC as a mid-tier AA game sounds about right. I mean that in a positive way. In comparison, that puts it above all the Zero Escape and Danganronpa games for me.

For the real test, we need to find someone who has never played an Ace Attorney game and have them try this as their first.

Easier said than done since you'd want to find someone who is open enough to the concept (not someone who hasn't played them because they hate text-based games or murder mysteries) yet somehow has never played AA (or danganronpa because that has the same gameplay system basically)

KamikazePotato posted...

Agreed. Case 5 was especially egregious about this. I'm lucky that I was familiar with all the magic due to it being based largely off of D&D, so that at least didn't feel overwhelming. I can imagine someone getting slammed with several dozen spells and being overwhelmed.

I wasn't even bothered by all the spells being in the book and how most of them were going to be irrelevant to the case. To me, that was an expectation since mages weren't going to need to use their entire spellbook for a murder. What bothered me was stuff like the academic dishonesty proof from case 2 being totally useless or the earrings from case 4 being totally useless, that kind of evidence.

Case 5 It's really bizarre how the case ends up with loose ends like Alaric obviously having been polymorphed but you never have to prove it or anything, really adds to the feeling of the case being rushed, even though I wouldn't have gotten much from having to prove a fairly obvious point in court

Paratroopa1 posted...

Case 5 It's really bizarre how the case ends up with loose ends like Alaric obviously having been polymorphed but you never have to prove it or anything, really adds to the feeling of the case being rushed, even though I wouldn't have gotten much from having to prove a fairly obvious point in court

The main developer discussed on the AA subreddit that Case 5 was subject to money and time constraints, including rewrites to include the Aster reveal instead of making it a separate Case 6. Presumably the original version would've made it less clear in Case 5 that he's the patron. The polymorph detail was also mentioned as something they werent able to expound on in-game but left in anyway.

Which is a shame because I think TC with all the main issues ironed out could have ended up as good as the best AA games.

I should get this at some point

i just wish they didn't have him go full evil. like, why do writers feel the need to do this? he had perfectly coherent motives as a "for the greater good" villain, it was workable! why do you always need the evil smile and to make them completely heartless? even beatrice fell victim to this trope a bit which was also dissapointing since she's a great complex character.

Case 5 I completely agree that if some of the serious issues with this case were ironed out TC would stand up there with the good AA games, the fact that this case just stumbles is what puts it in mid-tier for me instead

Dels posted...

i just wish they didn't have him go full evil.

They didn't though? Aside from the Aria thing

then we remember it differently

I got hooked and played through Cases 2, 3, and 4 in a few days.

Case 2 - Solid case with a solid mystery. I enjoyed the large cast of suspects and the amount of red herrings to make you think it's Frege. The constructs are a fun programming mystery on top of the magic. Being able to detect magic while investigating is a neat mechanic. I do appreciate how brisk the pacing is and how it doesn't waste your time on simple mysteries like why Frege/Nightgrave's lockers are swapped. That said, the rotating wheel deduction can be really specific at times. I got stuck behind a few even though I knew the answer. Eris makes her first true appearance here and...well, she's an archetype that can be really swing-y. I've played my fair share of meta-aware villains in visual novels, so we'll see if she does anything that really blows me away.

Case 3 - Definitely the weakest mystery so far, but I'll give the case credit - this case made me love the characters. I liked the main cast, but I got invested after Tyrion's backstory and the two ships of Tyrion/Celeste and Aris/Aster. I realized over the last year that while I typically don't like half-baked romance, good, slow burn romance might be my favorite genre. Lots of good lines in this too. I especially like that Tyrion's pretty amazing "I won't let nothing stay in my way, whether it be man, king, or god" is actually a kid-like chunbi line is great. While I generally don't like outright internet-isms in games, the keysmash for Aria's thoughts around Aster is perfect.

Case 4 - Really incredible case. There's basically no slow points and a ton of high points throughout the entire case. I'm glad we got to play as Ruby and play against Ruby - she felt a bit too in the background and she is a really good type of character for this role. Tyrion, Celeste, Aria, and Beatrice are all excellent, but the other characters in the case are good too. The two different thieves and three familial bonds are both great twists that feel right at home with the best of AA. The final confrontation with Beatrice and Marrakuth also feels right at home for great confrontations. Even leading up to it, the confrontation with Eugene is also really amazing. Great ending too with Tyrion rejecting Eris's manipulation and choosing to be with Celeste.

I should probably have this done by tomorrow?

Your reactions closely mirror what mine were as well.