Current Events > The Paradox of an Infinite Universe

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isdLel273rQ

Very good video. It gives you a good idea on what is on the 'edge' of the universe if the universe is finite. This is the first time I've heard of a hypersphere, but the idea makes a lot of sense.

I've always gone by the assumption that there's an "edge" but it's defined by gravity. If you make it to the edge, where there is literally nothing, the fact you are there and thus creating gravity has in essence altered where that edge is

Tag for later. It'd be cool if someone posted some cliff notes in the meantime. >_>

This stuff's interesting to think about. If the universe is finite and there is an edge, intuitively it feels like there should be something on the other side of that edge. But if the universe is all of space and time and all the matter and energy in it then there can't be anything outside it, not even empty space. Just literal nothing. Because if there were something there then that something would be part of the universe.

But like the video gets into even if the universe is finite it's so huge that on human scales it might as well be infinite. Even just our own galaxy is almost unfathomably huge and it's estimated that there are several hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe.

UnsteadyOwl posted...

This stuff's interesting to think about. If the universe is finite and there is an edge, intuitively it feels like there should be something on the other side of that edge. But if the universe is all of space and time and all the matter and energy in it then there can't be anything outside it,

why can't there be? doesn't the concept of a multiverse imply a universe then things outside of it? and that is not even a new concept
sure there is 0 proof of that but the concept of a universe not being everything does exist
then we have voids

https://www.space.com/whats-beyond-universe-edge

To answer the question of what's outside the universe, we first need to define exactly what we mean by "universe." If you take it to mean literally all the things that could possibly exist in all of space and time, then there can't be anything outside the universe. Even if you imagine the universe to have some finite size, and you imagine something outside that volume, then whatever is outside also has to be included in the universe.
Even if the universe is a formless, shapeless, nameless void of absolutely nothing, that's still a thing and is counted on the list of "all the things" and, hence, is, by definition, a part of the universe.

void still being a thing is odd, like if something exists outside of space,that space fits into and we call it a void, sure you can change your mind and now say that is part of the universe but as we see it now I don't think that is true

think of it in computer terms, space would be allocated memory to a process, void would just be total memory. as my process runs it can expand and grow taking more of the total memory as it gets allocated, but unknown to anything in the computer itself there is more beyond even the total memory as there is an entire world beyond the computer that isn't even defined by memory. if I ran a simulation inside the computer out of ignorance the sentient processes could declare all that exists is the current allocated memory that keeps growing and there can never be anything beyond that, but how stupid would that be

WingsOfGood posted...

why can't there be? doesn't the concept of a multiverse imply a universe then things outside of it? and that is not even a new concept
sure there is 0 proof of that but the concept of a universe not being everything does exist
then we have voids

Because the universe is supposed to be everything. What is the point of having multiple universes? Hmmm?

The universe is under no obligation to make sense to us, but that being said I personally find that the idea of an infinite universe makes more sense than a looped hypersphere or donut universe.

But then again, I was a humanities major, so I'm not claiming to be smart or have a grasp on this.

Pikachuchupika posted...

Because the universe is supposed to be everything. What is the point of having multiple universes? Hmmm?

then it is a definition thing I guess.
perhaps a better wording is why can't there be something that is nothing but is also nothing in a way we can't yet comprehend beyond space as space expands?
defining the universe as everything just means if there is, then that is already part of it but we don't know about it yet

also if universe is all that exists, what about non-existence or anti-existence?

I take back what I said about the hypersphere making sense. It doesn't make any sense. You go to one end, and then appear at the other end? Lol. However, it's the only thing that makes sense if the universe is everything there is.

That video solidified my belief that we know nothing about the universe.

WingsOfGood posted...

then it is a definition thing I guess.
perhaps a better wording is why can't there be something that is nothing but is also nothing in a way we can't yet comprehend beyond space as space expands (nothing being not quite the right word as it is less than nothing)?
defining the universe as everything just means if there is, then that is already part of it but we don't know about it yet

also if universe is all that exists, what about non-existence or anti-existence?

So just nothing outside of the universe? Then wouldn't that area just be part of the universe? What would be the area that is outside the nothing area? If it keeps going and going, then the universe is infinite.

Pikachuchupika posted...

So just nothing outside of the universe? Then wouldn't that area just be part of the universe? What would be the area that is outside the nothing area? If it keeps going and going, then the universe is infinite.

nothing is usually a vacuum of space
nothing as I intend here is something not even concepted such as where neither time or space exists because that is what makes the universe
and there is no matter because that exists in space
basically realm that doesn't exist, it is outside of existence, but that is problematic anyways

but basically is an answer to what space is expanding into without having to go "hmmm well I guess into itself", call it void or maybe that word isn't sufficient either

as mentioned in the analogy before of beings existing in computer memory, they cannot exist outside of memory and so they think that is all there is, that is the universe, but that would be a bad declaration

It is very problematic. Our universe is full of stuff, even the places where stuff wouldn't seem to exist (vacuum of space) there are still some particles that pop in and out of existence. A place outside of the universe that doesn't have anything just sounds like it is part of the universe but it still hasn't been "filled in" so to speak. Although the computer thing could be possible, too. We could be living in a simulation and we just don't know it. Whether it is finite or infinite the creators could make it seem so. But then who made the creators?

:/

Pikachuchupika posted...

A place outside of the universe that doesn't have anything

It isn't necessarily that it doesn't have "anything" but that it doesn't have anything that is in space\time or in other words the ideas and concepts you are used to

Pikachuchupika posted...

sounds like it is part of the universe but it still hasn't been "filled in" so to speak.

lol, why though? feels like a forced definition

Jupiter posted...

Tag for later. It'd be cool if someone posted some cliff notes in the meantime. >_>

Kurzegast IS the cliff notes.

Pikachuchupika posted...

It is very problematic. Our universe is full of stuff, even the places where stuff wouldn't seem to exist (vacuum of space) there are still some particles that pop in and out of existence. A place outside of the universe that doesn't have anything just sounds like it is part of the universe but it still hasn't been "filled in" so to speak. Although the computer thing could be possible, too. We could be living in a simulation and we just don't know it. Whether it is finite or infinite the creators could make it seem so. But then who made the creators?

:/

We don't know, and that's okay.

Maybe one day we will know the answer to these existential questions about the nature of our reality, and we should continue to try and find out... but until then there is speculation, research, and accepting that we don't know.

WoG, your post from earlier touches upon it. Say you have a Glass that you are pouring water into. The unfilled part would be the void. The universe, the water. So do we have a infinite expanding or is it till we fill the void. The latter is not possible unless we live in a simulated universe ( the memory was always there till we fill it up). Infinite universe has 1 major issue. Infinite matter. It would have to come from a singular source. A cone universe more like. The edge would be a flat wall. Understand?

Torgo posted...

Kurzegast IS the cliff notes.

I moreso meant I was at work and couldn't watch the video at the moment but was curious what was said.

Hyperspherethingermabob sounds good to me.

Along with tons, but not infinite, other universes.

ArkhamOrigins posted...

I've always gone by the assumption that there's an "edge" but it's defined by gravity. If you make it to the edge, where there is literally nothing, the fact you are there and thus creating gravity has in essence altered where that edge is

Gravity extends infinitely, though. If there is an edge to the universe, the spacetime curvature that your body is creating (which is what gravity is) is already reaching to that edge.