Board 8 > Anime & Manga Discussion Topic 293 - Beyond Topic's End

(+) Yeah! (+)

From what I can tell, Khara was in charge of a lot of the Eva sub/dub stuff, unfortunately.

I'm still salty that they botched the dub for AICO. It's one of my top five anime but the general public never had the opportunity to give it a chance.

KamikazePotato posted...

Like unless you're a weeb, solid voice acting in your language is going to be more enjoyable than subs.

I don't know you have to have complete disinterest in being exposed to other languages to think this imo

I will always prefer a good dub over a subs if the dub is good, regardless of language. Wakfu dub for example is bad, so I will only watch that in French.

This is only for animated stuff though. I will never watch anything live action in anything other than the original language. Far too distracting watching a live action dub.

MacArrowny posted...

From what I can tell, Khara was in charge of a lot of the Eva sub/dub stuff, unfortunately.

Yeah this was the one that was in my mind when I said Netflix wasn't solely to blame.

Khara is kind of a shitshow.

I wonder how many people here saying subs would use Chinese or Korean voices if those were the original voices in their animation or games, even with the option of a Japanese dub.

KamikazePotato posted...

Oh I didn't hear about this. That's hilarious.

Unfortunately since it was Netflix I've yet to find any videos that compare the 2 dubs.

I'm sure there must be a way to pirate the original dub somewhere. It was really fucking bad though. This isn't like a Madoka thing where it's just not where it just wasn't where it needed to be, we're talking straight up Chaos Wars level here.

WhiteLens posted...

I wonder how many people here saying subs would use Chinese or Korean voices if those were the original voices in their animation or games, even with the option of a Japanese dub.

Genshin Impact has proven that they just stick with the Japanese dub even if they're someone who touts the virtues of 'hearing something in its original language'.

WhiteLens posted...

I wonder how many people here saying subs here would use Chinese or Korean voices if those were the original voices in their animation or games, even with the option of a Japanese dub.

I admittedly don't interact much with media in languages other than Japanese or English, but I try to watch everything in its original language. Even with awful subtitles, I'm still getting the original language's volume and intonation and whatnot.

Video games are the odd exception where I don't mind dubs, though.

WhiteLens posted...

I wonder how many people here saying subs would use Chinese or Korean voices if those were the original voices in their animation or games, even with the option of a Japanese dub.

I switch to Chinese for Star Rail sometimes, but the dub work is really good so it's just for funsies.

I wish I could switch to Chinese for stuff actually set in China like Thunderbolt Fantasy, but it's not always available.

But yeah, like I said before, French Wakfu is the only way.

If you wanna go real nuts, watch Japanese dubs for American shows!

https://youtu.be/9JH4YIXfNeA?si=rOP5i580cPLvGa1g

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/7/7c47a110.jpg

Then there's games like the recent Resident Evil games or like in Sonic Adventure 2, where you have 6 language options and I cycle through them each playthrough.

I played Overwatch with the Japanese voices for a while. Was a fun time. That's the sort of game where you don't have to worry about lip flaps though.

Subs are superior. Original language flows better. Watching Kungfu Hustle in English dub is just hilariously bad, and completely kills the puns from the original meaning. Then there's the problem with English dubs having trouble with East Asian names.

How do you pronounce Cao Cao? Cow Cow? Tsao Tsao (mandarin) and Chou Chou (cantonese) are the correct ways. How do you pronounce Takamaki? Ta-KAH-ma-key? What about Yamamoto? Ya-mer-mut-to?

Ah, the good old Dynasty Warriors dubs. Cow Cow and Cow Pee

https://youtube.com/shorts/j-TcHHq3CDY?si=lQDdF5FLUwR07dVP

Mobilezoid posted...

Ah, the good old Dynasty Warriors dubs. Cow Cow and Cow Pee

Cow Pee is another classic LMAO

UshiromiyaEva posted...

https://youtube.com/shorts/j-TcHHq3CDY?si=lQDdF5FLUwR07dVP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjUtoQaRfE0

GranzonEx posted...

Then there's the problem with English dubs having trouble with East Asian names.

I've learned that more often than not, the English voice actors themselves know what's the proper pronunciation (because c'mon a lot of them are weebs as well) but they're forced to comply with the request of their client and thus "mispronounce" words. I recall Persona 5 was a big case of this.

And some voice actors have alluded that if they try to contest it, they get marked as someone who can't follow directions. So it's a lost cause if they're trying to get paid.

I'm pretty sure Mortal Kombat is another example of this, since I highly doubt most of the VAs think that Shirai Ryu should be said as "shuh-rye rye-yu" but they have obey Ed Boon and say it that way in-game.

WhiteLens posted...

I wonder how many people here saying subs would use Chinese or Korean voices if those were the original voices in their animation or games, even with the option of a Japanese dub.

Why would I not? What would be the point in watching the Japanese dub?

I watch Chinese and Korean shows and watch both in the original language with subtitles.

WhiteLens posted...

I've learned that more often than not, the English voice actors themselves know what's the proper pronunciation (because c'mon a lot of them are weebs as well) but they're forced to comply with the request of their client and thus "mispronounce" words. I recall Persona 5 was a big case of this.

And some voice actors have alluded that if they try to contest it, they get marked as someone who can't follow directions. So it's a lost cause if they're trying to get paid.

I'm pretty sure Mortal Kombat is another example of this, since I highly doubt most of the VAs think that Shirai Ryu should be said as "shuh-rye rye-yu" but they have obey Ed Boon and say it that way in-game.

You bring up a great point. I do wish the directors listen to the talents if they are open to inclusion and diversity. It's hypocritical to "Americanize" pronunciations and pretend to be respectful of other cultures.

Maniac64 posted...

Why would I not? What would be the point in watching the Japanese dub?

I watch Chinese and Korean shows and watch both in the original language with subtitles.

In the case of Genshin Impact and Star Rail I think the company behind those games are big enough weebs that they consider the Japanese dub to be the main voice track. Otherwise they wouldn't spend so much money getting all those famous VAs.

As for dramas I'm glad you're openminded enough to watch in original voices. It's often not a matter of snobbery, but the willingness to embrace other cultures. I think the phenomenon of refusing to read subs and wanting everything in dubs is purely an American/North American issue. We often forget that the rest of the world consume most of our media with subs. In the case of Chinese and Korean dramas that deal with costumes and period pieces often have very difficult to translate terms that would sound hilariously bad in English lol.

Against my better judgment, I started watching Butareba: The Story of a Man Who Turned into a Pig. And it's... surprisingly decent so far? I skipped it earlier in the season because I figured the premise of a pervy guy isekai-ing into a pig and hanging out with a cute mindreader would be nonstop ecchi. It certainly has had its fair share of raunchy jokes, but that hasn't really been the focus. There's only been one panty shot so far, even! It's actually about the mindreader girl and the pig embarking on a dangerous journey to an ominous royal capital where they can hopefully find someone to turn him back into a human. The fourth episode did a really good job at laying out the threats they can expect to encounter along the way. The dynamic between the pig and the mindreader has been a lot of fun too. I'm actually really enjoying this anime so far.

I just wish the default wasn't "Wow, dubs suck, you're a fucking weirdo." I forget who it was, but someone in this topic last year "joked" to me, "Wow, I feel sorry that you watch dubs." Without knowing I was actually legally blind first...like wow.

Anyway, the default stance should be, "like what you like: don't be a dick." I just wish Dubs didn't have 25-30 years of "Wow, they suck, and you suck for watching them, dorkface" as the usual stance of "admittedly" weirdos on the internet. As someone who watched dubs first because that was the available thing on channels, then two out of necessity, there's only been about 5% of the time I dump a show because I think something is bad enough its the dubbing's fault. Probably even lower at this stage. The one time I DID watch sub over dub was Love Hina, just cause I remember watching subbed in college on some weird Winamp thing on a loop. When I watched the dub version a few years later, the actors they chose were all...miscast and doing weird prononciations.

Anyway, I think dubs get a bad rap even now, and you'd think the default reaction to dub discussion (like VA reveals) would be more, "Awesome, can't wait," and less, "OH wait, the dub is actually...good now?" Still happens with stuff like SpyxFamily. Like, what a slap in the face to the actors to just dismiss it out of some ingrained spite you have. That or still touting the "sub > dub and you're a weirdo if you're wrong" reflex. The standards for dubs have been pretty good since 2000-2005, but you wouldn't really know it dealing with people still.

Hence why I'm surprised there's actual nuance around here for once.

WhiteLens posted...

I've learned that more often than not, the English voice actors themselves know what's the proper pronunciation (because c'mon a lot of them are weebs as well) but they're forced to comply with the request of their client and thus "mispronounce" words. I recall Persona 5 was a big case of this.

And some voice actors have alluded that if they try to contest it, they get marked as someone who can't follow directions. So it's a lost cause if they're trying to get paid.

I'm pretty sure Mortal Kombat is another example of this, since I highly doubt most of the VAs think that Shirai Ryu should be said as "shuh-rye rye-yu" but they have obey Ed Boon and say it that way in-game.

I remember a story John Swasey (Shinigami from Soul Eater, and pick a cop/mob old dude, he's probably done it) said about Arcana Famiglia. He said he was brought in as the last set of recordings. He went to start his lines, going "Fah-me-li-a," and gets stopped. The director (who he didn't name) said, "Isn't it Fah-mig-li-a?" Swasey's going, "Um...what? Fuck no!" The director looks up after a second and says, "Fuck...well, uh, we've recorded all the others saying it the second way and don't have time to bring them all back in, so could you just do it too?"

I would bet this sort of thing happens all the time. What's funny was it wasn't even Asian based words this time.

I mean I enjoy a good dub and have no issue watching them, but so often the quality of acting is just worse. I'm glad we are getting more good dubs lately as subs do limit when I can watch a show. I certainly won't judge someone for watching the dub.

I just still default to subs unless I've heard great things about the dub. And even then it's nice to hear the native language.

And as someone else said dubs of live action are a whole different thing and there it is a lot tougher.

Even if a live action dub is good it's kind of irrelevant, lips not matching means I can't take it seriously.

Probably the only category in all of cinema where I'd want to see huge AI advancements, lol.

I'm a little over halfway through Monster.

I am definitely glad I read because I would be at 3 full cours of anime right now and I couldn't imagine.

I'm told the anime is nearly a panel-by-panel adaptation.

I only watched the anime, but I'd be pretty surprised if it added much, and I actively disliked Johan's voice in the Japanese version.

Maniac64 posted...

I mean I enjoy a good dub and have no issue watching them, but so often the quality of acting is just worse.

Is it really, though? I think the issue is that unless you're a native Japanese speaker - as in you grew up in Japan - people aren't going to be good at judging how good a voice is.

It's very telling is that I've never seen a pure sub watcher ever admit that Japanese VA for any show is bad. That would imply that all Japanese VA is good, which is fundamentally impossible. It's far more likely that western people just can't tell the difference. It's gets even worse when those people equate anime voices to what Japanese people actually sound like - when that couldn't be farther from the truth. Anime voices are often extremely exaggerated compared to what real people speak like, especially the female waifu voices.

Like, it's perfectly fine if people prefer subs. Maybe it just sounds better to them. However, I think there are definite reasons it might sound better that people often ignore in favor of elitism/purism. The disconnect of language not only hide poor voice acting, but it papers over the corny-ass dialogue a lot of anime has. I dare anyone here to say a friendship speech in English and make it sound good.

(If you can't tell, I've met multiple real-life people who have soured me on this topic.)

There definitely are bad Japanese VAs, but yeah it's harder to tell unless it's comical.

I absolutely HAAAAATE the Daru's japanese VA for Steins;Gate. Fucking Hanna Barbera sounding ass mother fucker.

Also the VAs in Raging Loop are obviously amateur.

KamikazePotato posted...

I think the issue is that unless you're a native Japanese speaker - as in you grew up in Japan - people aren't going to be good at judging how good a voice is.

It's very telling is that I've never seen a pure sub watcher ever admit that Japanese VA for any show is bad. That would imply that all Japanese VA is good, which is fundamentally impossible. It's far more likely that western people just can't tell the difference.

That's exactly it. I've never seen the inverse ever being discussed as a counterpoint. Sure. I'd imagine a native speaker in their own language and own writing is going to have a better time expressing things, but that doesn't mean it is a 1:1 "for it is automatically good" reason. The most I've heard is, "Well, they get trained in it at a school or job specifically for it." Again, being trained at a school doesn't guarantee you're good at something. Otherwise, I'd be a sports coach or occupational therapist right now, rather than working retail.

To be fair to my own point, I bring up stuff like River City Girls. I'm currently playing now. Though it is based on a Japanese franchise, it is totally made by an English developer with English actors first, and you can tell by the writing. I'd assume the same is true for stuff like Vox Machina and RWBY and the like. They are aping a look, but you cannot understate the difference in culture and look and feel.

Ghost Stories and Shin Chan (and Panty/Stocking, though I don't know if that was ever confirmed) were stripped out and completely retooled for and English audience and just complete weirdness between the dub actors just fucking around and having fun. I would wonder what a Japanese dub of an English show would be in comparison.

I was always under the impression that Japan more often does group voice recording sessions instead of everyone recording their lines separately, which if true definitely matters I think.

pyresword posted...

I was always under the impression that Japan more often does group voice recording sessions instead of everyone recording their lines separately, which if true definitely matters I think.

I can buy that Japanese VA is better on average due to certain reasons (not having to worry about lips flaps, group recording sessions, overall more training) but it's the all-or-nothing attitude among anime fans that is so pervasive which really annoys me.

Out of curiosity (since there are a lot of dub watchers in here), how do dubs handle certain unrealistic animeisms? Like when a character is staring at someone and does the "jiiiii" staring sound effect, does the dub say "staaare" or something? Or do they just cut it out?

I think more often than not, they vocalize those in comedies just because. Anime is definitely becoming more meta, so they probably just get away with whatever they want to say now. They do make weird sound effects here and there, but I recall Greg Ayres (Ghost Stories FTW; he legit signed it that way) telling us that they try to stay conversational or matter of fact while dubbing. I do definitely think there's emphasis in not trying to go for "Saturday Morning Cartoon" in a lot of voice acting whenever possible. It comes off as flat I suppose, but the inverse of that would be, "Oh god, that is such a put on, I'd rather not."

Screams and other stuff is usually different. I remember Tony Oliver (Lupin Part 2) telling me he did a Gungrave scream that blew out his voice each time he did it. You can probably guess what scene he's referring to.

So who knows. It could be skill related, ease of use, the type of show involved, and other things.

Mobilezoid posted...

Out of curiosity (since there are a lot of dub watchers in here), how do dubs handle certain unrealistic animeisms? Like when a character is staring at someone and does the "jiiiii" staring sound effect, does the dub say "staaare" or something? Or do they just cut it out?

This exact example is actually an enormous pet peeve of mine.

If the dub actually say "staaaaare" instead of something like "hmmmm", that dub can go fuck itself.

Dubs can suffer from trying to be too like the original. One example is Re:Zero's dub, which has Rem's voice actress try to copy the excessively quiet and soft-spoken Japanese voice. It didn't sound good in the original and it sounded even less natural in English.

Interesting, thank you. I certainly don't have anything against people watching dubs (unless it's a bad dub for a good show and people say the show sucks because the dub sucks (yes I'm still bitter about AICO)). There are just a lot of anime quirks that I think would feel wrong coming from an English speaker. Stuff like how they sometimes go "Mm" when answering a question "yes", and theres no lip flap there so it's not like the dub can just say "yes" instead. "Mm" has a very different meaning from an English speaker! Plus there are all the stock phrases like itadakimasu. I've probably seen that translated a hundred different ways over the years, but it doesn't matter what the subs say because I hear it and know what it means. I'd miss little things like that in a dub, I think.

But hey, as long as dub watchers enjoy the anime, that's all that matters! Manga readers probably think I'm crazy too for basically never reading manga.

If more people were reacting like that, then a lot of 25 years of angsty gatekeeping would probably be avoided. God, it's refreshing.

Mobilezoid posted...

Interesting, thank you. I certainly don't have anything against people watching dubs (unless it's a bad dub for a good show and people say the show sucks because the dub sucks (yes I'm still bitter about AICO)). There are just a lot of anime quirks that I think would feel wrong coming from an English speaker. Stuff like how they sometimes go "Mm" when answering a question "yes", and theres no lip flap there so it's not like the dub can just say "yes" instead. "Mm" has a very different meaning from an English speaker! Plus there are all the stock phrases like itadakimasu. I've probably seen that translated a hundred different ways over the years, but it doesn't matter what the subs say because I hear it and know what it means. I'd miss little things like that in a dub, I think.

But hey, as long as dub watchers enjoy the anime, that's all that matters! Manga readers probably think I'm crazy too for basically never reading manga.

See this is an attitude I can completely appreciate. Much better than "all dubs voice actors are just shitty youtubers", which is a direct line from my personal experiences!

The shitty Youtuber line is pretty hilarious. AmaLee and JubyPhonic have a million subs each for being cover artists, leading to (in AmaLee's case) the lead role in Dress Up Darling. The dub actresses of Ana and Yor also did Youtube before their breaks, and YongYea is going to be Kazuma fucking Kiryu going forward...so

Yeah, fuck whoever that guy was and his opinions.

I'm absolutely a subs > dubs guy when given the choice but dubs are certainly completely competent (most of the time) nowadays, the bar has greatly risen for dub quality. And there are some shows I'll watch the dubs for after I watch them subbed to see how it goes, like I'm a big fan of Reigen's dub VA.

I think the nicest thing anyone said until this topic (that I recall anyway) was exactly what Bane described. "It's evened out: there isn't as much weird variety, the floor is definitely higher, even if the ceiling is lower."

I mean, I love Bebop as much as the next guy, but there have been plenty of shows as good as that since. I just wonder if people bothered to look.

My personal gold standard dub is Black Lagoon. Funnily enough, it was the only show that the guy I quoted actually tolerated watching dubbed lol

Despite my earlier complaint, Re:Zero also has a strong dub overall. Rem does sound good when she's allowed to sound like a person. JoJo also has a great dub that captures the high energy-insanity of the original. Could list some others but yeah, there's good offerings out there.

Ah yes. Black Lagoon. Good choice. I go back to the videos of them saying "fuck" and I think the count was 250-260 for the show and 100-110 for the movie...I think

"FUCKING MOTHERFUCKING FUCKS!"

KamikazePotato posted...

Dubs can suffer from trying to be too like the original. One example is Re:Zero's dub, which has Rem's voice actress try to copy the excessively quiet and soft-spoken Japanese voice. It didn't sound good in the original and it sounded even less natural in English.

You've taken this too far in the other direction. I have never heard anyone say Rem's Japanese voice was bad. That's the original, how the author and anime director envisioned the character. I didn't like ReZero but there's no way any of the voice acting is bad.

Let people enjoy watching whatever they want. There's no need to project your insecurities onto internet strangers. Your IRL friends are immature. They don't represent all anime fans.

Baccano has a great dub and I'd say it's mandatory to watch it that way given the setting.

I would, if it was actually available. Baccano, Darker than Black, and Hell Girl are in streamer/Aniplex jail or some weird ass limbo. I'm not spending $130-$350 on Amazon on a show, no matter what.

God I miss Darker than Black so much.

GranzonEx posted...

I have never heard anyone say Rem's Japanese voice was bad. That's the original, how the author and anime director envisioned the character. I didn't like ReZero but there's no way any of the voice acting is bad.

That was my personal opinion I was sharing. Also, based on this comment and your previous posts in a topic, you seem to be extremely focused on respecting the original form of a work no matter what. That isn't something I care nearly as much about. A creator's original vision can suck, regardless of what the culture is.

They don't represent all anime fans.

I would say they represent, if not the majority, then a very large minority. My experiences are hardly limited to a few people I know IRL. Go on any piece of social media. Go on the anime board on GameFAQs. 'Dubs suck' is the default mindset. You can try to excuse that by saying it's just people being online, but it's still people expressing their opinions, just without a filter or need to be polite.

This topic is one of the only reasonable discussions I've ever seen about sub/dubs.

The sad fact that KP and I are both saying this is the best and most rational discussion on the subject should be very telling and an indictment. Admittedly, I do sound VERY bitter, but it doesn't come from nothing.

Note: I am here in this topic BECAUSE I found this to actually be a rational place. Look at the anime, pro wrestling, or any game-specific board on GameFAQs and you'll see what "normal" internet is like.

Your opinion does not make it a fact that Minase Inori did a bad job voicing Rem. That's how she is supposed to sound. You can say the character sucks, but the voice actor is just doing their job. Any of the other 50 veteran waifu VAs would still voice Rem in the same exact way if the original VA had to be replaced.

Most anime fans, and just people in general have no original thoughts in their head. They parrot things they hear and are fiercely tribal. I know the anime discourse on dub vs sub. It always turn into the other side accusing people of being weebs and not being able to discern good voice acting and then the weebs bring up Chaos Wars.